User talk:Ian-metz

Haslington
I noticed that your recent edit removed the reference to Dick Turpin allegedly staying at the village inn on the grounds of removing "weasel words". Whilst I understand the rule you are following, I think this is probably too rigid an interpretation of the rule. It is never easy to prove or disprove that some historical figure did or did not stay in a particular place, and many places claim such exotic associations. It is part of the folklore of communities, and, provided that adequate citations are used is surely not inappropriate in Wikipedia. The citation used in this instance was fairly authoritative (Cheshire County Council). Surely the criterion here is not Did Dick Turpin stay here? but rather Is there a legend that Dick Turpin stayed here?. I must admit, I would have used the phrase Legend has it that... rather than It is rumoured that... which sounds more appropriate to an assertion that someone is having an affair with someone else. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your comments, but the source is one single entry in a website, quoting no sources, the purpose of which is to 'market' the area, which is another "wiki" reason for not including Dick Turpin. Half the pubs in Humberside, as well as some hotels, claim links with Dick Turpin.  I really do think the reference is much too vague and unsupported by any facts - like are there any PROVABLE associations with Dick Turpin and Haslington?  Probably not! "Romantic" as it sounds, there still needs to be some justification, and so far, in wiki terms, there is none. --Ian-metz (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I still think you are wrong on this one. If it is a verifiable fact that there is a local legend, then that is appropriate to mention in Wikipedia, provided that it is made clear that it is legend, and not proven. The question then should be whether there are other sources for the legend. In this case, I have searched and come across Haslington Online, Haslington Parish Plan, Northwest Regional Development Association and Olde Worlde Pubs : The Hawk Inn in addition to the original citation at Cheshire County Council : Walks Around Crewe and Nantwich : Haslington. I have excluded the numerous websites that have merely ripped off the originals. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * All rumours have to start somewhere - my uncle's grandfather's sister's great-grandson knows somebody who thinks he saw Barak Obama feeding the geese at Winterley pool. Equally idiotic, but who knows, it may grow into a universal truth - it's on the internet now, after all.  If I pass this rumour on to my neighbours and they pass it on or put it in their blogs, it will soon become a quote "verifiable fact that there is a local legend".  Simply because somebody that had too much to drink makes a claim that subsequently appears behind the bar on a sign that is commented upon elsewhere and repeated does not a useful piece of information make.  What was the reason for the rumour - did Dick Turpin sign the visitors' book or carve "Dick Turpin woz 'ere" in the bar top?  Rumours are like lies - no matter how often they are repeated, they are still lies.  That is why empty rumours are worthless and should not be in Wikipedia, in my opinion.


 * I think one of the sites you quote as a reference makes my point for me, regarding the pub's gates: "Black Bess was alleged to have leapt over these gates and clipped the wood with her hind leg when Dick Turpin made his escape. At least this was the legend told to village children, totally wrong of course - it was actually her foreleg!".


 * As an aside, I was interested to discover that one of my locals, the 200 year old FORESTERS ARMS, is featured in at least one of the websites you quote. It is RUMOURED to have a ghost which makes itself known by nudging people.  However, Nev1  has repeatedly removed my entries (sans ghost) in the Winterley page on the basis that as most communities have pubs, they are not encyclopedic.  Should this rumour of a ghost make the FORESTERS ARMS worthy of a wiki mention, in your opinion?  --Ian-metz (talk) 09:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Additionally, you will note that DDStretch says on the Winterley discussion page that "The claim about Dick Turpin was sourced, but I agree that it still was not worthy to be included." I don't know how many wikimickles make a wikimuckle though... --Ian-metz (talk) 09:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

If Barack Obama, no doubt on a short excursion from proving him to be yet another Irish descended US president, was seen feeding the geese at Winterley Pool, I doubt that it would merit a mention whether it was proven fact or not. If in 200 years time, visitors are attracted to Winterley because legend has it that America's greatest president and renowned international statesman Barack Obama once visited the village, then perhaps that might be. Just as mention that legend has it that Mary Queen of Scots once stayed in X castle would be appropriate. There are numerous unproven legends that are documented in Wikipedia (and other encyclopedias). Rome was, for example, according to legend founded by Romulus and Remus. The objection on that page is not that legend is quoted, but that there is insufficient distinction between what is legend and what is fact. Nobody is suggesting that the mention should be removed because there is no sign at the city boundary stating "This city was founded by the undersigned ... Romulus ... Remus".

Nev1, of course, is correct in stating that most communities have pubs (though that in itself is becoming an untruth as more and more pubs close). However, not every community has a 200 year old pub (most American communities would kill for one!} with or without a ghost. If that pub has some architectural merit as well it is certainly well worth a mention, and it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to find a wording that would satisfy even Nev1.

Wikipedia should surely be about reaching a consensus on such things. Unfortunately, some of the longer serving Wikipedians sometimes forget that and take a more dogmatic (and on occasions, an "I know best" attitude). It doesn't mean that they are always right.

As far as Haslington is concerned, it doesn't make much difference to me whether Dick Turpin is mentioned or not. I only came across the article because I was intrigued at the slanging match going on over Winterley and, in a moment of boredom, followed a couple of links to see what all the fuss was about. It looked to me that you had been intimidated into taking an over zealous line on verification which perhaps you might not have taken prior to the hoo-ha over the Winterley Boundary Dispute, and just thought I would mention that I didn't feel you had to be so rigid on this instance. If I've got it wrong, sorry. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, no apologies necessary!


 * I did a bit of research on the Barak Obama story and found this:


 * It seems to reinforce my "local legend" claim for Winterely pool, and it adds to the information regarding the Foresters Arms. So, with a ghost AND an Obama connection, it may make the Winterley page yet!  --Ian-metz (talk) 11:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought you were joking about Obama! Come to think of it, I may remember some throwaway item on North West Tonight about it a couple of months back! Go Go Winterley! Skinsmoke (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)