User talk:IconianZ

@ Marty Rockatansky:

hi,

first of all no kickboxer has their amateur bouts listed on their wiki page unless it's an A-class fight under pro rules, usually for a championship title.

No MMA fighter has their amateur bouts listed, otherwise mousasi would have Yves Lambele, Ricardo de Jong, and a bunch of other fights on his MMA list he fought as an amateur. Wiki generally copies the MMA fight record from fight finder, which only lists pro matches themselves. Stefan Struve for instance lost 2 amateur matches when he was 16, but amateur matches are not included in their official records.

Mousasi's official kickboxing record listed at the dutch "bond voor kickboxen" is 1-0, once again, amateur kickbox matches are not included in the records for kickboxers listed on wikipedia. that you want to know who they fought as amateurs has little to do with it. Melvin manhoef fought 13 muay thai matches as an amateur in several junior classes and none of them are listed on his page. for a reason. because we keep it clear by only listing his accomplishments in actual pro matches, because they are easier to keep track of and to verify. The fact is that Mousasi fought multiple B-C MMA and MT matches in his teens, but we only list his official record which is fights designated as pro matches.
 * i wish its as simple as that. muaythai is different than mma record keeping. first of all dutch and other kickboxers add their c, b class fights to their records all the time. the way i've undertood as long as theres no protection (headgear etc,) the fights are considered no true amateur anymore and are added to their records. how do you think Andy Souwer is able to get 130+ fights or check the rec of Tyrone Spong. true amateur fights are novice and ifma rules with protection. its not that wikipedia doesnt list it, its because its impossible to find any info on those early fights.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 04:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I know they add that to "pad" their record, but at the actual overview of their fights on their wiki page the amateur bouts aren't listed on spong's, souwer's, or any other kickboxer's wiki page. Why add them for Mousasi? Moreover, Mousasi had no fights in the A class which means he only fought under rules where knees and kicks to head aren't even allowed (I know because I grew up with muay thai in holland as well)

a Compromise:

From a reliable source (fighttalk) he's had 6 MT matches in total, what is usual is that after your 6th fight you only move up to the B class but he moved quicker than others probably because of his boxing accomplishments. in the B class I could find only these 2 fights

Emmen, 10-16-05, Liver Punch KO 0:35 Round1 Enrico Grootenhuis

Alkmaar, 01-25-04, UD vs Arno Hilckmann

(http://www.kickbox.nl/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3032)

And 1 of his fights in the C class: Rhoon, 06-14-03 TKO Round1 vs Bhagola Surinder

If you're so keen on listing these let's just create two seperate columns, 1 for K-1 record and 1 for Muay Thai record, with his MT record being 6-0 with these fights listed. Anderson Silva is supposed to have a 20-0 record or something, and none of his fights are even traceable (lol)... Anyway, check mousasi's page and see what you think of it.

Gerald


 * i know man, it sucks on kickfighters, theres no sherdog or boxrec, Liddell's kickboxing record is untraceable as well. it took me a long time to complete Ernesto Hoost complete fight record. since k-1, muaythai are pretty much a similar stand-up styles i'd keep it under kickboxing and add notes section more specific info like k-1 rules, b-class, or c-class rules mt.laterMarty Rockatansky (talk) 14:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

alright go for it, notes is a good solution. If I can find his other mt fights I'll add them later. keep up the good work


 * Are you going to be discussing the matter at my talk page? I'm curious about the claims you made and would like to discuss your rationale. Thank you.  Paralympiakos  (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Alistair Overeem
Please do not revert an edit that is supported by a source. Please read the source before editing. Thank you. (MgTurtle (talk) 23:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)).