User talk:Indy beetle/Archives/2018

Articles for deletion/Jack Schlossberg
Due to a nomination error, there were two AfDs regarding Jack Schlossberg running concurrently. Your recommendation regarding the article, originally posted to Articles for deletion/Jack Schlossberg (4th nomination), has been moved to Articles for deletion/Jack Schlossberg to merge the two concurrent AfDs. There was no error on your part; this is simply to inform you of the move of your recommendation to the consolidated AfD. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:51, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 2
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Your GA nomination of Jean-Baptiste Ouédraogo
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Jean-Baptiste Ouédraogo you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of AustralianRupert -- AustralianRupert (talk) 03:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Jean-Baptiste Ouédraogo
The article Jean-Baptiste Ouédraogo you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Jean-Baptiste Ouédraogo for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of AustralianRupert -- AustralianRupert (talk) 04:02, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLI, January 2018
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 13:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Greetings
Nice to see you shepherding the Italo-Ethiopian War; I've been at a dead stop lately because of a dodgy neck and the alphabet soup of potions the doctor gives me but I'm hoping to revive my Wikimojo directly. Regards ;O) Keith-264 (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Robert F. Kennedy presidential campaign, 1968
Hi: besides the RFK main article and the JFK main article, I suggested some time ago, here is another that may be of interest to you. Given this year is the 50th anniversary of RFK's death, it would be nice if at least his main article could be brought up to GA. I just do not have the time just now, to do it. Keep up the good work. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 13:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 26
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 26, December – January 2018  Arabic and French versions of Books & Bytes are now available in meta!
 * # 1Lib1Ref
 * User Group update
 * Global branches update
 * Spotlight: What can we glean from OCLC’s experience with library staff learning Wikipedia?
 * Bytes in brief

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Disambiguation link notification for February 6
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Recommendations for your WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo will be delivered soon
Hi Indy beetle,

Thank you for your interest in using our tool. Sorry about the wait. We've been working on improving our tool in the past several weeks, and we will send recommendations to you very soon. Stay tuned. Thank you! Bobo.03 (talk) 23:26, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Engineer boot
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Engineer boot you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mike Christie -- Mike Christie (talk) 12:20, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLII, February 2018
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 07:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Engineer boot
The article Engineer boot you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Engineer boot for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mike Christie -- Mike Christie (talk) 03:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

FARDC
Thankyou for listing FARDC for an FAR. It was overdue for reassessment and you've started that process. But if I'm going to be the only one doing most of the cleanup and fixes, it's going to ruin most of my enjoyment of WP for some time. WP is fun for me, most of the time, because I can pick and choose what I do. If I have to do mindnumbing sfn fixes for weeks on end, it might well ruin the fun. I hope you'll consider giving me a good deal of leeway on how long the fixes will take. Let's talk, anyway; maybe we can come to some reasonable compromise. Many thanks again for all your hard work on RDC and other Congo subjects, kind regards, Buckshot06 (talk) 09:38, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I nominated this article for FARDC expecting to see it eventually delisted. The state of the article when it passed FAC back in 2007 would never have sufficed by today's standards. There is an impressive amount of info and sources here, but the prose's style is unacceptable and as I've said before there are places where directions to sources should be replaced by actual content. I'm not very concerned about getting up to the present date, as it seems most broad info about the army was last issued in 2012, though things like the current Chief of Staff and Minister of Defence should be easy enough to find. I think attention needs to be devoted to cleaning up the citations and rewriting the prose, and that will be a large effort indeed. I don't intend to "ruin" Wikipedia for anyone, and I'll happily assist you where I can. My domain is the Congo Crisis and I have a few high quality sources I can use to rewrite that section (which in some places is just simply inaccurate), including Willame's Patrimonialism and Political Change in the Congo. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:48, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Hey thanks IndyBeetle. Sure, maybe it should be delisted; I suppose that's possible. I suppose also that I'm attached to it (not surprising!!). From the Military Balance, we can do a skim update of the status, and we can definitely find the current leaders. Can you tell me what are the issues you have with the prose? What do you exactly mean by the 'prose's style is unacceptable'? I could eventually clean up the citations, but I'll have to understand what you mean a bit more before I can fix the prose style issue you identify. Please, *please* don't think that I meant *you* were trying to ruin the enjoyment of WP, for me or anyone else; you're an amazing contributor and I value your presence here greatly (eg on policing Siege of Jadotville!!) Great that you have Willame, Patrimonialism, in your personal collection - I had to find it in a library.. Many thanks again and look forward to continuing to work with you. Kind regards, Buckshot06 (talk) 05:04, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Recommending new editors to WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo
Hi Indy beetle,

Our system generated a list of potential new editors for your project. They may be interested in collaborating with your project members on your project's articles. As you will notice, the list contains both experienced editors and newcomers. Both are valuable for Wikipedia and your project. Please go ahead and introduce your project to them, and point them to some project tasks to start with. We also provide a template invitation message to make it easier to contact the potential new editors. Just click the invite link to write the invitation message.

We'd appreciate it if you could fill the survey to let us know what you think about our recommendations so we can improve our system. Please let me know below if you have any general feedback about our recommendations. Thank you! Bobo.03 (talk) 20:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Odzala-Kokoua National Park
Thanks for updating the List of national parks in Africa. I'm curious if you think Template:National Parks of the Republic of the Congo should be updated as well. I submitted a request on the talk page, but another editor seems to think the article needs further updating before the template should be changed. Perhaps your update to the article helps, and I'll be suggesting further improvements in the near future. Inkian Jason (talk) 19:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. User:Spintendo may not follow up, unless I re-open the edit request. If you prefer not to edit the template directly, I'll consider posting a note to a WikiProject, or revisiting the request once the Odzala-Kokoua National Park article has been improved further. Thanks again. Inkian Jason (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Can I send invitations to new members for your project?
Hi, I have been working on recommending new members for your project for a while, and have sent some lists to who helped invite those recommended editors. I wonder if you mind me sending invitations directly to save time and efforts of yours? Thank you! Bobo.03 (talk) 05:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the offer, but I'd prefer to have my own human discretion when making those invitations. -Indy beetle (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Jason Sendwe
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Jason Sendwe you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mike Christie -- Mike Christie (talk) 03:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Jason Sendwe
The article Jason Sendwe you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Jason Sendwe for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mike Christie -- Mike Christie (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Miriam Makeba
Thank you for what you did for Miriam Makeba, "a musician and activist who had a lasting impact on music and popular culture in South Africa and abroad". I today, her birthday, to illustrate my own singing in defiance, - DYK ... that the hymn "Jesu, meine Freude" (Jesus, my joy) by Johann Franck and Johann Crüger mentions singing in defiance of the "old dragon", death, and fear? (March 2014). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Today, thank you for On the Mindless Menace of Violence, "a speech delivered by United States Senator Robert F. Kennedy on April 5, 1968, the day after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.. The speech has been greatly overshadowed by the famous remarks Kennedy delivered the night before in Indianapolis. Regardless, it was still considered by two of Kennedy's speechwriters, Jeff Greenfield and Frank Mankiewicz, and two prominent journalists, David Halberstam and Jack Newfield, to be one of the senator's best (it's my personal favorite, quite frankly)."! Can't be said enough. - I was just reminded of singing in defiance, and will put it on top of my user pages, following Easter consequently. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Glad you liked it. I was hoping by making it TFA it would get some of the examination I think it deserves. As for singing in defiance, the Miriam Makeba FAC led me to Google some of her performances. She has a truly beautiful voice. And if you want more defiant singing, perhaps I could interest you in some Nina Simone? -Indy beetle (talk) 20:00, 5 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank your today's Jean Bolikango, "a prominent Congolese educator, writer, social figure, and politician. He began his career in the Belgian Congo as a teacher, where he educated two future prime ministers. He also wrote an award winning novel and contributed to a Catholic newspaper. In 1946 he founded an important cultural association. By the late 1950s he was the only Congolese to hold an executive position in the Belgian colonial administration. In the lead up to the independence of the Congo he took on the role as leader of the Bangala people. Most of his attempts to secure important government positions failed (though he did twice serve briefly as deputy prime minister of the Congo), but he had significant influence as an opposition leader in Parliament until 1965. His career was quiet afterwards but he held esteem among the Bangala people until his death. He is remembered as one of the fathers of Congolese independence and as an elder statesman of the Congo."! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:49, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Recommending new editors to WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo
Hi Indy beetle,

Here is a new list of recommendations for WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo. Please take a look when you get a chance. Thank you!

Bobo.03 (talk) 05:06, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLIII, March 2018
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On the Mindless Menace of Violence scheduled for TFA
This is to let you know that the On the Mindless Menace of Violence article has been scheduled as today's featured article for April 5, 2018. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Today's featured article/April 5, 2018, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1100 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so. Thanks! Jimfbleak - talk to me?  07:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

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To write for Signpost
Glad to see you are interested in writing. Please click here and follow the quick start directions. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:34, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLIIV, April 2018
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Books & Bytes - Issue 27
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 27, February – March 2018  Arabic, Chinese and French versions of Books & Bytes are now available in meta!
 * # 1Lib1Ref
 * New collections
 * Alexander Street (expansion)
 * Cambridge University Press (expansion)
 * User Group
 * Global branches update
 * Wiki Indaba Wikipedia + Library Discussions
 * Spotlight: Using librarianship to create a more equitable internet: LGBTQ+ advocacy as a wiki-librarian
 * Bytes in brief

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WiR op-ed
Hi, I just noticed that you started Signpost/Signpost Opinion1. Was this intended for the upcoming Issue 5 or was it for later? ☆ Bri (talk) 03:27, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Whenever is most convenient for The Signpost. -Indy beetle (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Just checking in – are you done writing the piece? Reminder, cutoff for writing items for this issue is Wednesday-ish, and we are aiming to publish Friday (current status at WP:NEWSROOM). ☆ Bri (talk) 14:35, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll try to have it done by Wednesday. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Great, I've relayed that to the Newsroom. Also, your column is moved to Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Community view in preparation for publishing. ☆ Bri (talk) 14:54, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay I'm done with it, unless you have any final suggestions. -Indy beetle (talk) 11:26, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLIV, May 2018
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Thank you
I had no idea how much of a precursor you were. It was during May of last year that you reverted an edit I made on the Robert F. Kennedy article and I became curious of who you were, leading me to go to your user page. There I discovered you were an RFK fan and I didn't understand why someone that liked that person would be against adding material which wasn't negative. Since then, I've experienced a similar trend on other articles and I realized you were the first example of such behavior. So thanks for the foreshadowing. - Informant16 14 May 2018

Your GA nomination of William G. Enloe
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article William G. Enloe you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Gog the Mild -- Gog the Mild (talk) 10:21, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * A fine article. A couple of issues at the bottom of the review page. Could you respond to me there. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, that was quick and easy. Not my usual sort of article, but it was so well written that I enjoyed it. If you fancy a quid pro quo let me know - I have 8 GANs queued up. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:37, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of William G. Enloe
The article William G. Enloe you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:William G. Enloe for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Gog the Mild -- Gog the Mild (talk) 19:41, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 26
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The Bugle: Issue CXLVI, June 2018
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Your GA nomination of Joseph Kasongo
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Your GA nomination of Joseph Kasongo
The article Joseph Kasongo you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Joseph Kasongo for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of HaEr48 -- HaEr48 (talk) 00:21, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks
I found your observations about the language we use to describe Western versus non-Western militaries very perceptive: thank you for sharing that. Vanamonde (talk) 08:28, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 28
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 28, April – May 2018  Arabic, Chinese, Hindi, Italian and French versions of Books & Bytes are now available in meta!
 * # 1Bib1Ref
 * New partners
 * Rock's Backpages
 * Invaluable
 * Termsoup
 * User Group update
 * Global branches update
 * Wikipedia Library global coordinators' meeting
 * Spotlight: What are the ten most cited sources on Wikipedia? Let's ask the data
 * Bytes in brief

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Your GA nomination of Joseph Kasongo
The article Joseph Kasongo you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Joseph Kasongo for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of HaEr48 -- HaEr48 (talk) 01:02, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLVII, July 2018
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The Bugle: Issue CXLVIII, August 2018
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Jean Bolikango scheduled as TFA for September 30, 2018
This is to let you know that the article mentioned above has been scheduled as today's featured article for September 30, 2018. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Today's featured article/September 30, 2018.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Henri-Thomas Lokondo
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Books & Bytes – Issue 29
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 29, June – July 2018  Hindi, Italian and French versions of Books & Bytes are now available in meta!
 * New partners
 * Economic & Political Weekly–10 accounts
 * Wikimania
 * Wikimedia and Libraries User Group update
 * Global branches update
 * Bytes in brief

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A Commons file used on the Belgian Congo page has been nominated for deletion
Hi Indy Beetle,

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on the Belgian Congo page has been nominated for deletion:
 * King Baudouin visits the school of the Force Publique in Luluabourg 1955.JPG Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page.

Whats's your opinion about this? Do you think it is salvageable, seems to be a shame if we lose it on wiki.

Kind regards,Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum (talk) 22:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The fact that the photo was taken by CongoPresse is encouraging, because photos become PD 25 years after publication in the Congo. Unfortunately, we have no /solid/ proof that the photo was ever published so long ago in the Congo, and until we have such verification there's little that can be done. The uploader of the photo did not provide any details. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

File:Isaac Kalonji.jpg
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File:Victor Koumorico.jpg
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File:Joseph Midiburo.jpg
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The Bugle: Issue CXLIX, September 2018
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please do not inappropriately tag articles
You tagged a featured article with over 60 references for 'more citations' - this is disruptive. Please be more careful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.25.206 (talk) 08:50, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * That's because the Witold Pilecki article has many paragraphs without citations and wasn't going to bomb everyone one of them with an individual "citation needed" tag. The article itself doesn't even hold up to modern FA standards and is long do for an FA review. -Indy beetle (talk) 12:57, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * If you have SPECIFIC issues, open up a TP discussion AS REQUIRED when you apply such a template. Do you realize this is an FA article? And that the statements are already vetted? Each para does not need a cite - it is assumed that the information carries over to the NEXT citation - which the Featured Article review already did. I have removed the tag once again. If you have concerns, open up a discussion on the Talk Page. Otherwise, don't clutter FA articles.50.111.25.206 (talk) 21:30, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * You're actually quite wrong about that. Each paragraph does need a citation. I realize it's an Featured Article. I also realize it was promoted back in 2005 and last reviewed 9 years ago and would absolutely not pass FA standards now. FA status does not preclude pointing out that an article has serious problems that need addressing. As for "specific issues" you think should be addressed, here are some uncited paragraphs/ solitary strings of text from the article:


 * His forces held a fortified area called the "Great Bastion of Warsaw", one of the most outlying of partisan redoubts. Pilecki and his men inflicted significant casualties and caused considerable logistical difficulties for German supply lines by routinely seizing control of a strategically placed building overlooking the city's main west-east thoroughfare, Jerusalem Avenue. The bastion held for two weeks in the face of almost constant attacks by German infantry and armor.




 * After the defeat of Nazi Germany in May 1945, Pilecki was sent to Great Britain as a staff officer of the Polish Armed Forces in the West




 * By mid-1946 Pilecki's network had successfully made contact with Poland's anti-Soviet partisans and established an underground courier system to spirit information from Warsaw to the headquarters of the Polish II Corps in Italy. However, its greatest achievement was the recruitment of Captain Wawel Alchimowicz, an official of Poland's Ministry of Public Security (MBP), the communist secret police.


 * Alchimowicz provided the underground with highly-sensitive material on the MBP's covert operations, internal organization and senior personnel as well as evidence that the results of the people's referendum of June 1946 had been forged by the MBP to favor the communists and their allies.


 * This information was compiled into the so-called "Blade Report" and was dispatched to the II Corps in December 1946 by Pilecki. During this time Pilecki's group was itself infiltrated by Leszek Kuchciński, a former TAP member and double agent for Poland's Stalinist government.




 * Pilecki told his wife in their final conversation: "I cannot live. They killed me. Because Oświęcim [Auschwitz] compared with them was just a trifle." His final words before his execution were: "Long live free Poland". The Polish government in exile decided that the post-war political situation offered no hope of Poland's liberation, and they ordered the remaining members of the Polish resistance (who became known as the cursed soldiers) to return to their normal civilian lives or escape to the West.

-Indy beetle (talk) 21:47, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

 * If we wanted to do the successor article, and assuming that the first Ileo Government was sufficiently covered in the existing article, would you recommend concentrating on the College of Commissioners-General? (great that General is included formally, because you may already know where College of Commissioners links to!!). Buckshot06 (talk) 20:31, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The construction of an article on the College of Commissioners-General would be a much more straightforward process. There's plenty sourcing to work with there. Though an article on the 1st Ileo Government could probably be scraped together (and in due time probably should), sources would be a problem, and there's very little that actually happened in its several days-tenure. Mostly just Ileo and Jean Bolikango harassing and denouncing Lumumba's allies. Wikipedia isn't missing much without it. If you would be interested, I'd be happy to assist you in the creation of the College article (after all, I need something else to do while Lumumba Government drags through the review boards). We could use what's in the LG article as the basis for a "Background" section. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:47, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, sounds like a good idea. Suggest we do move some material out of the LG government article to trim the readable text size even if only so slightly. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:10, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I've started the article. I've also cut the LG article down to 150 kilobytes with more trimming and moving info to Patrice Lumumba. Let me know if you have any suggestions for slimming it more, or just any general ideas. Could always use some comments at WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Lumumba Government -Indy beetle (talk) 02:12, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Indybeetle!! Do not *remove* any trimmed material. Find a home for it in other articles. Would request every phrase of military-related material you trim be carefully added to Military of the Democratic Republic of the Congo - eventually we need to split out ANC and FAZ.. My initial thoughts.. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:16, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I would request you restore all the trimmed material back in, and then reduce the size of the article by abstracting material which is now in the 1960 elections article (and of which some needs to be moved to Belgian Congo, or History of the Belgian Congo or 'Belgian Congo 1945-1960'). Would probably suggest we raise History of the Belgian Congo from its present status as a redirect. Happy to help with this process. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:18, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah-ha!! You're still ahead of me!! You've started the abstracting and all the material is preserved in the elections article.. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:54, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'm not sure why I hadn't done that sooner. I've also been moving relevant info to the individual ministers' articles like Patrice Lumumba, Maurice Mpolo, etc. Finding use for the History of the Belgian Congo link is not a bad idea. Regarding military affairs, I was actually considering creating an article devoted to the mutiny, as some the info presented here is too precise for the overall FARDC article. -Indy beetle (talk) 15:11, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

I have access to Kennes and Larmer's The Katangese Gendarmes and War in Central Africa in softcopy form should you wish to use it. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I have my own copy; I acquired it only a few months after it was printed for the Operation Grandslam article. I actually wrote a review of it in the latest edition of Milhist's The Bugle. -Indy beetle (talk) 18:34, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't have to prod you too much then to raise Katanga Gendarmerie from a redirect.. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Suppose not. Strangely enough the Katangese Air Force already has its own article. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:04, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Not strangely - sexy fighter aircraft generate fan-boys, who race around creating articles on military aircraft and the tiniest of air forces, without often considering political economic factors, or, sometimes, reliability.. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:08, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you add a source for Victor Lundula's indigenous name? Buckshot06 (talk) 08:37, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

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Patrice Lumumba
Hello Indy beetle.

A response to your earlier message to me.

''"It's admittedly disappointing that few authors have taken up the task of analyzing Lumumba's place in historiography and his tangible legacy, and ironically Ludo de Witte, the man who did the most to change views on Lumumba's death, is also probably the person who has evaluated the historiography the most." ''

There are multiple books on Lumumba's place in history (as distinct from historiography), but since a person's "place in historiography" is dependent on what scholars write about that person, any analyses of what historians write about Lumumba is always going to take a backseat to the actual writing about his place in history (i.e. writing about history, not historiography) in terms of quantity, and prior to the declassification of some material in recent decades, and the end of the Cold War, the number of well informed studies on Lumumba was always going to be limited to begin with, so the historiography would not have had a really large historical base to draw upon in the past. That said, works such as Patrice Lumumba (2014) by Georges Nzongola-Ntajala, Patrice Lumumba: Africa's Lost Leader (2008) by Leo Zelig, Patrice Lumumba, acteur politique: De la prison aux portes du pouvoir (2005) by Jean Omasombo and Benoît Verhaegen, Gender and Decolonization in the Congo: The Legacy of Patrice Lumumba (2010), the aforementioned 2015 book by Gerard and Ducklick, and multiple articles by scholars in recent years (such as the work of Stephen R. Weissman) have reflected on Lumumba's impact or legacy, even if work specifically about his "place in historiography" is less developed.

As for Ludo de Witte "doing the most to change views on Lumumba's death", this depends on if one is talking about views in the West. Have you ever spoken with any people in Africa about their views on Lumumba's death? Or anyone outside of certain Western European and North American circles (such as people in Asian countries or parts of Latin America, for example)? I actually have spoken to at least a few such people (about the issue of Africa's development and its past more generally, in the course of which, the Congo crisis and Lumumba came up) long before de Witte's book came out, and it is certainly not the case that they needed to have their views on Lumumba's death "changed" by de Witte's later book. Sorry, but except for people in the west who may have been living in a bubble or echo chamber, de Witte's book probably played little to no role in altering the view many people had already had about his death; many, many people outside of that bubble or echo chamber already viewed his death as being a result of a Western plot. Reading de Witte's book would amount to little more than filling in some of the (still murky) details.

"I wouldn't be surprised if historians' perceptions on Lumumba changed after his book was released, but we have no reliable sources that state so"

De Witte's book may have changed public perception in the west about the nature of his death, but that is public perception, not general scholarly opinion. There is indeed little to no evidence that de Witte's book "changed historians' perceptions on Lumumba", even if it might have changed the perception of some people in the media in the West about the nature of his death. I certainly wouldn't agree with a claim that it "changed historians' perceptions" about the man without evidence.

"And the only reason I said that is because you claimed Willame was not well-read on Lumumba and the Congo Crisis—an unfounded claim which is sorely lacking in evidence. Large portions of his book actively discuss foreign attempts to undermine Lumumba's government."

I wasn't that clear, so I can understand how you did not get what I meant. Granted it should have been worded much more clearly on my part, but I was taking into account the character/letter constraint in comments so that is why phrased it so badly, but I was not saying what you seem to believe that I was saying. What I claimed by saying "not widely read" was that most people do not read their works or look to them as some sort of authoritative source on the Congo crisis or Lumumba. I was not saying that those two authors themselves were not well-read, but that they are not widely read by others (as if their work is viewed as being of principal importance or definitive etc.).

I am not saying that they are completely obscure or ignored, but I am saying that their work in this area is not considered as being anything definitive. For example Willame's book is only referred to a few times in the 2015 book by Gerard and Ducklick, which is one of most - if not the most - up to date and well researched books on the issue of Lumumba's death so far. It was my fault for not being clearer in my wording, and I see how it could have been misinterpreted, but I was not actually saying what you seem to believe I was saying here.

"As for not mentioning Belgian nationality, I have two reasons for that. Firstly, de Witte doesn't mention Willame's nationality. Secondly, appending nationality to a historian is a contentious matter on Wikipedia, as can be seen at Talk:Atrocities in the Congo Free State#about the history of the historians. And be mindful that if nationality were to inherently determine bias, then it would follow that Sartre, a Frenchman, would be unsympathetic towards Lumumba, which is not true."

I think you are missing the point. It is not that someone who is Belgian cannot be objective on the issue; it is that when a possibly biased view may be influenced by a person's background, it is important to note (when making a very broad claim about what supposedly holds true for most historians of Africa) that person's background to highlight that views from people with such a specific background (a historian of Africa of Belgian origin) are not necessarily representative of all historians of Africa of all other backgrounds (most historians of Africa are NOT of Belgian origin anyway). One of the historians of Africa whose work on African history I hold in high regard is in fact of Belgian origin - the late historian Jan Vansina - even though there are some things in his work that I disagree with. Yet despite that I am a fan of much of his work and see most of it as being objective, I made the previous edit that I did highlighting the origin of those other historians because I am not somehow oblivious to the possibility that a person's background can heavily influence the tone or objectivity of their work. Keep in mind that Ducklick is Belgian, yet I had no problem mentioning the 2015 book that he co-authored. The point is not even that "Belgians can't be objective" or some such nonsense, but to highlight that the opinion which you are trying to portray as representative (of the views of Africanist historians) is not necessarily so, by specifying that it most likely limited to a certain subsection of Africanist historians.

Also, historians have often analyzed the effect that national origin has in bias when writing about history - for example historians have analyzed a trend of anti-Italian bias in the writing of some British or American historians when writing about wars in the 20th century, or have analyzed anti-Spanish bias in the work of some English historians of the past, and so on.

To actually believe that "most Africanists" hold that view, without evidence of any actual survey of Africanists' views on Lumumba (do you realize how many Africanist historians there are in the world? We are talking about a large number of scholars) simply because Ludo de Witte made that claim is ridiculous. It is strange that I am having to explain here that the claim in the original source (de Witte's book) is simply unfounded and based on absolutely nothing, despite how blatantly clear that should be. Do you realize that, even if they are not the majority, a large number of Africanist historians are actually Africans - do you actually think Ludo de Witte surveyed any of them before he made his claim? I doubt that he even surveyed Africanists from the Americas or Asia either (yes, there were and are Asian Africanist historians as well). Not that there is even any evidence that he asked Africanists throughout Europe for their opinions, but at least if you simply claimed that Africanists from certain European countries - for whatever reason - tend to hold that view you might begin to have a slightly plausible case for de Witte's claim being true. It is strange that I have to explain all of this, so I am starting to wonder if you really understand what "Africanist" means.

I am not going to attempt to revert anything until we at least reach some kind of conclusion or compromise about this, since I don't care for any kind of "revert/edit" war. A much more sensible thing to do from the start would have been to formulate the sentence like "According to the historian Ludo de Witte, most Africanist historians. . ." or "According to the historian Ludo de Witte, most Africanist historians prior to 1999. . ."

But you seem averse to phrasing it in that much more accurate way, perhaps because you don't want to draw attention to the fact that this claim is the opinion of a single man, based on absolutely no survey of the opinions of Africanist historians generally? Why you seem averse to providing the proper context for the claim is truly perplexing. Instead of simply representing things accurately here, you seem much more interested in promoting a controversial claim about the perception or interpretation of a major figure of the history of the 20th century, and using a strangely wikipedist logic to justify doing so (i.e. "as long as a statement has an academic citation/source it makes sense to simply state it with no caveat or qualifier as if it is automatically true, regardless of whether the statement in the academic source has any actual backing or demonstrated evidence for its claim") to defend your position about that statement.

Please actually think critically about what you are citing and claiming, because so far I feel like you are just a bit out of your depth to believe and to promote that claim (and once again, I really do wonder if you understand what "Africanist historian" actually means; if you do not, I can explain it to you). Your inclusion of that sentence without any sort of caveat to the reader that the Africanist historians making such claims are specifically from the country which had such a heavy involvement in the entire Congo crisis is completely puzzling. I find it difficult to believe that you are not appreciating my point in highlighting that even this claim that de Witte makes about interpretations of Lumumba on the part of scholars is only from a highly selective viewpoint, possibly very limited in scope to people of a certain nationality. Keep in mind that I absolutely do not care about "winning" some obscure Wikipedia debate. What matters to me is that an extremely slanted view is not simply presented as "truth" or "reality" on this site (as has been the case for years it seems) to casual readers who might not bother to look any deeper for their own edification.

By the way, looking at some of your past edits or reverts of other people's edits, I can see that you are not particularly biased on the subject of the article, and are trying to stay objective. However, on this point, I don't think you are seeing how incredibly slanted the claim you are supporting is, and you might want to reconsider, and also if you can, reach out to a wider circle of scholars than those who might have given you the impression that that claim about what most Africanist historians believe is in any way proven or credible.


 * You can sign your comments by placing four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your posts.
 * Firstly, I've made changes to the article based off of a doctoral thesis I obtained access to, and I suggest you read those changes there. It discusses the impact of de Witte's book and the 2000 feature film Lumumba on (Western, I suppose) perceptions of Lumumba. As for "Africanist" I'm using the term because its what de Witte uses, and I presume he means it in a broad sense of any historian who specialises in African topics. Have you read the relevant page in de Witte's book? I think you should do so before proceeding. As for his claim about "most" Africanist historians, I presume he was referring to all the background literature he examined when writing his work. I doubt it was a "survey" on all Africanists in the world. But I don't see why he couldn't have made an evaluation of the literature on Lumumba at that time. As Bouwer notes, discussion of Lumumba was limited during the Mobutu years, so whatever the opinions of scholars in the Congo were, we would not have been able to hear about them until around the same time de Witte's book was released. The only positive/sympatheitc Congolese views towards Lumumba written during the Mobutu era are the books by Thomas Kanza (who does point the finger for Lumumba's death at a litany of Congolese figures and Western nations) and Anicet Kashamura, both written while they were in exile. Nzongola-Ntalaja has been active at least since the 1980s, but I can't recall any of his work discussing Lumumba much in depth until the 2000s. For the record, I'm fine with qualifying the evaluation by saying "According to sociologist Ludo De Witte" or whatnot, as I've done later on in the section. But that still doesn't account for the fact that there is simply little easily available academic discussion on Lumumba from African and Asiatic sources. If you have some, I'd be happy to read it. Most of the stuff that purports to discuss Lumumba's legacy sticks to generalities and is rather vague (like this) and offers nothing new to what is already included in the article.
 * I still stand by my statements concerning the contentiousness of referring to a historian's nationality. De Witte doesn't mention nationality, and aside from Blommaert's and Verschueren's general comments on Belgian literature on Lumumba (which is mentioned), no one else discusses that factor.
 * You accuse me of using "a strangely wikipedist logic" to justify the inclusion of de Witte's analyses. I suggest you read WP:RELIABLESOURCE and WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH before you say I'm "out of [my] depth". I'm using reliable sources to back up my claims. Your conversations with various persons, though not without their use as a reference point, cannot be used to justify content changes on Wikipedia. The 2011 thesis I found does support what I say about De Witte's impact. Do you have any (African or Asian, especially) sources that support your argument?
 * For the record I am glad another Wikipedia editor takes interest in Lumumba, and I do hope we can keep our conversation constructive, as I believe it's been so far. -Indy beetle (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

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The Bugle: Issue CLI, November 2018
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Your GA nomination of Henri-Thomas Lokondo
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I have unreviewed a page you curated
Thanks for reviewing Formation of the Lumumba Government, Indy beetle.

Unfortunately Boleyn has just gone over this page again and unreviewed it. Their note is:

"Needs further tagging and investigation, e.g. it is uncategorised."

To reply, leave a comment on Boleyn's talk page.

Boleyn (talk) 19:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Undoing my edits
Greetings Indy Beetle! I am a new user and was wondering why you reverted my edits changing "University of Lovanium" to "Lovanium University" in the Lumumba Government article? Zoocat56 (talk) 06:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies. I hadn't noticed your reasoning to change the Lovanium University page until after I reverted those initial edits, but it appears you are correct. Proceed with your changes. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Forgotten ACR?
It's been a while, but your comments on WikiProject Military history/Assessment/German torpedo boat Albatros have been responded to. Please check to see if the changes are satisfactory.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:04, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

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Thanks!
Thanks for trying to search for sources in French on the Kinshasa DRC Temple. I think so often people just vote on deletion requests, but few do anything to try to help, so I want you to know I appreciate your kindness. Whether or not the article gets deleted, it means a lot that you tried. Glennfcowan (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CLII, December 2018
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Books & Bytes, Issue 31
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Map request on Wikipedia Commons
Hi I thought I would give you a gentle reminder that your first map draft is ready on Wikipedia commons at. The draft is waiting to be checked from the 23rd.  scope_creep Talk  14:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

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