User talk:Inigmawiki/Messianic Judaism revision

Please visit Talk:Messianic_Judaism for the official discussion regarding the page sections, and this revision's proposed replacement of the original article.

Issues
One of the problems with this revision is that none of it is sourced. Another is that it uses non-standard terminology; for example, the Wikipedia article is Jesus, not "Yeshua", and articles should refer to him that way. Jayjg (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeshua is "original name for Jesus" and is in the Wikipedia.

Yeshua should be used. Used as such: Yeshua (Jesus). What is a reader to learn about Messianic Judaism if the article is in "Christianeze".

My concern is that Messianic Judaism should not be seen as a branch of Christianity. It had its re-birth with the help of churches, but it grew up and now has its own individual identity.

See article article #20 by Dr. Ruth Fleischer entitled 'Messianic Jewish Identity' in this PDF: IAMCS Spirit of Messiah magazine.

Another useful article is:See: May\June 2006, Page 13, Article: Hebrew Christian or Messianic jew?

Kindly, CowboyWisdom 20:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll be working on finalizing most of this article tonight. inigmatus 14:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally think the revision article looks great, at first glance. However, I am going to put it on a word document so I can really look it over (since, as I'm constantly saying on here -- I'm at work). Rivka 15:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Inigmatus -- My meeting was pushed back to noon. (Would like to EAT at some point but... alas...) That being said, I feel the article is great, but so that it meets the Wiki standards for NPOV, I feel that citations are in order. I am positive that you have your citations and sources ready, however, should you have missed one, here is a person I prefer to use --
 * “They Loved the Torah”, by David Friedman, former academic dean of King of Kings College in Jerusalem, holds a Ph.D. in Judaic studies and an M.A. in Arabic.


 * This one can be used for paragraph 1 under "Messianic Judaism and the Early Church" and "A Jewish Yeshua". This is my most recent reading and so it is the title I remember correctly, lol.


 * I was also wondering if you had what you would like to put under "Grafted In Theology". If you haven't anything to put there I have started a simple paragraph that could use some finishing (because I just plain old don't know the rest, lol). So please just contact me and I will make it readily available.


 * Rivka 16:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * By all means, feel free to work on the draft with me. :) inigmatus 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Aw, shucks. :-) I have added my small (possibly useless) paragraph on the Grafted In Theology. I hope it is NPOV enough for everyone; tell me what you think. Rivka 21:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Yeshua" is a name hypothesized for Jesus, which is promoted by Messianics. However, Jesus is still Jesus, and Wikipedia articles need to refer to him that way. Jayjg (talk) 16:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, with that logic, then we should remove all references to Allah from Islam and just call him God. We should also remove all references of Jehovah from Jehovahs Witnesses and just call him God. Hmmm, perhaps we should also delete Yeshua, and even HaShem. I would figure that if religious pages can use their names for their God or gods, then those names should stay since they are relevant. inigmatus 16:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Jayjg, are you on this kick because of your views on Messianic Judaism? Or is what you're doing being done for the good of the Wikiverse? I'm asking because it seems to me that you REALLY want us to refer to him as Jesus -- when we don't MOST of the time (unless it is to connect with those that are still Christian). I never hear any of the Messianic leaders I know refering to him as Jesus so why should the article do that? Jews refer to G-d as HaShem. It would be most wrong to deny them that on their article, being that HaShem means literally The Name. I wouldn't want to take away from the truth of how they address G-d.
 * Why would you want to take that from us? I'd say more...(not at my desk) Rivka209.136.211.32 17:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

First Draft Completed
I'm starting to add references now, as well as other material from the original article. Feel free to comment or input what you think would be necessary to make this article more attractive and reader-friendly here. inigmatus 03:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added started adding comments in the source code stating some of the areas that need improvement and correction in this current version of the article i will continue as I have time. Lorem 22:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro issues
Unlike restorationists, however, Messianic Judaism adherents seek to reclaim the Jewishness of the Christian faith by exercising into their lifestyle and religious practices the faith and traditions of the disciples of Jesus, followers of a 1st Century Jewish messianic contender commonly referred to as "Yeshua" by Messianic Judaism.

Here are the POV issues with this line. You have wikipedia make all sorts of assertions.
 * 1) This line presupposes there was originally more Jewishness in the Christian faith.
 * 2) This line asserts that the practices of Messianic Judaism are the practices, faith and traditions of Jesus and his disciples
 * 3) This line asserts that Jesus existed, he was a 1st century messianic candidate.
 * 4) This line essentially adopts a restorationist perspective.

Here is a version that is less POV. That is the beliefs are being attributed to Messianic Judaism not to wikipedia. Feel free to edit. The main point here is the change of voice, everything else is less problematic.
 * Messianic Judaism asserts that traditional Christianity has lost is Jeiwshness.
 * It utilizes an Aramaic form of the name Joshua, Yeshua, rather than the Greek form, Jesus, which is more commonly used by English language speakers.
 * It asserts that Jesus/Yeshua and his disciples followed ritual traditions which are similar to those of currently day American liberal Jewish practice and incorporates these ritual practices into its rituals.
 * It asserts that Jesus was a messianic contender (as an aside are you sure you want to say this. I happen to think MJism does not assert this).

jbolden1517Talk 02:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

 These disciples were first called by their contemporaries "followers of The Way," and then were later called Christians by their persecutors.


 * Messianic Judaism contends that these disciples were first called by their contemporaries "followers of The Way," and then were later called Christians by their persecutors.

jbolden1517Talk 02:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

''Messianic Judaism is a relatively new term, coined to help seperate [ed: should be separate] the practices of its followers from those of common Christianity as a whole, and in order to more closely align its faith with that of historical Judaism. ''

Again you are asserting that Messianic Judiasm is in fact more closely aligned with historic Judaism. You can't do that in wikipedia's voice. More seriously most mainstream Jewish organizations are going to contend the name was for marketing reasons. So something like:
 * 'Messianic Judaism is a relatively new term. Messianic organizations claim this terms was coined to help separate the practices of its followers from those of common Christianity as a whole, and in order to more closely align its faith with that of historical Judaism.

Is much more likely to be accepted.

Different congregations have adopted various practices of Judaism, but universally the practices center on an adherence to the Jewish practices of Jesus and his 1st Century followers  Same problem as above. jbolden1517Talk 02:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

This may include observance of Shabbat, This is dicey. Something like This may include practicing rituals which are outwardly similar to the Shabbat rituals practiced by mainstream Judaism otherwise you are asserting that you can practice Shabbat in a messianic way which is a POV.

Anyway I hope you see the problem. jbolden1517Talk 02:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to gain a moment to reply to this post. I plan to reply as soon as I can. Rivka 18:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)