User talk:Insertcleverphrasehere/2019 CW submission

Comments or suggestions welcome. —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  10:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Copyedited
, I have made a few minor changes. I think it's good to go. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:14, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Excellent stuff - thank you. I wonder if being a little more explicit under the "proposed solution" heading would be helpful. My interpretation is that we are asking: a) that the team deal with as many of the important issues listed as they can without unduly penalizing work on other items on the list; and b) that they also "fix the issue" of not having dedicated resources to deal with NPP necessities above and beyond the slice of effort that may devolve there via the wishlist. - Right? Then maybe we should put that in, unambiguously, below the three bullets. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:27, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * , This is not a plea to the Foundation. It depends how well you know the people who decide what gets done within the WMF. Although the volunteer communities provide the content that gets the donations that pay their salaries, history has clearly and unambiguously demonstrated that they do not like being told wahat they should do. They do not even appreciate suggestions as to what they might wish to be doing.
 * What one must not forget here, is that the proposal is not so much an appeal to the WMF, but more of an appeal to people to vote for the proposals. The potential voters are the target of the proposal. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:42, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * and . Hmmm... I was working on this before I saw Kudpung's reply. What do you think of the changes I made? —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  12:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's pretty much what I had in mind - a little shifting-around goes a long way :) But it still seems to me as if we are leaving the actual base request kinda implicit. Are we asking that they deal with ALL the ticket items? Or from the the top as far as allotted effort goes (by their estimation)? Or their pick from these? Might pay to be explicit here. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * , I clarified that with a bit of an addition, but I think I agree with Kudpung and that the large final paragraph in the 'Proposed solutions' should probably be moved back down to 'more comments'. Unfortunately that request *is* well-and-truely outside the bounds of the Community Wishlist. —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  13:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks - fair enough, as long as both points are specifically spelled out (as they are now). Tweaked phrasing a bit to make it less about Us. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:08, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * In previous years there have been the categories Moderation and admin tools, and Miscellaneous, but this year they have been very careful to omit any category the NPP would slot into. They know what they are doing. The Maps Team issue is precisely the kind of answer that would come from the WMF, but this time round they have told the community 50 times that the Wish list is the place for NPP requests. I would leave it out, as I said, the proposal is an appeal  for and to the potential voters, not to the horns that blow in the WMF's orchestra. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * To clarify, you mean the entire bit about procuring extra resources? (I thought you were happy with the first version of the draft, thus I didn't pick up on that) Do you think it's just unlikely to achieve anything, or actively detrimental? -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:13, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm also having some concerns that the request for 'ongoing support' may be pushing the community wishlist too far. As much as I want to push the WMF and the Tech Team, is it more important that we get these specific improvements that we have requested? —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  15:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it's a tactical mistake to ask for 18 improvements. I would instead suggest we ask for all 6 bug fixes and then 2-4 of the remaining pieces. The bigger our ask the easier it is just to give a wholesale no, regardless of how much community support we rally. Even that would be a larger ask. I understand I might be in the minority here but I believe it strongly enough to make the pitch one more time. My other thought is more a question: does it make sense to collect diffs where we've been told "Use the community wishlist" by WMF? Has anyone from the foundation beyond MMiller said as much? It would be helpful for explaining why we're making the size of the ask we are if we can find 2 or 3 (or more) foundation staffers saying this rather than just one. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * . First of all, some of these are trivially easy. Second of all, what is the point of asking if we aren't asking for what we really want? There is a consensus on the NPR discussion page to request bugs and high priority items, those are the items listed on this page. I'm not going to ask for less and honestly I don't expect that what we have asked for here actually should take the WMF very long. I've seen what volunteers can do with a couple days work, and if that's anything to go by, this stuff could get done in a month or less easily (I have serious doubts as the the WFM's capability to keep to that kind of schedule, but that is a different story). As for Diffs, no, I don't think that would be helpful. I don't want to sound like we are complaining too much, but rest assured that we have been told by pretty much all of the different members of the team at different times. —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  15:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I meant leaving out this recent diff. I have tried to explain above that the proposal targets potential voters, not the WMF. The comunity is the element that needs to be convinved and coerced into supporting NPP. The WMF doesn't give two hoots of a horn what's written. Their job is to read the tally - and they will still throw some winners out if they don't like them.
 * Another issue is that if the proposal is TL;DR, people will glance at it, not fully understand it, sklip it, and move on the the other 200 proposals.
 * we have been told by the WMF countless times over the last three years that NPP requests shuild go through the wish list and I'm sick and tired of telling them why it quite clearly shouldn't. We've been told on Wiki, on Meta, and on Media Wiki, and I've been told privately by the WMF by email and video. All long before Mr Miller was hired. Their responses are to the extent of being robotic. They have also begun banning Wikipedians from Phab for being too persistent.  The sad fact is that the WMF gets things wrong most of the time and they know it, especially since their defeat at ACTRIAL.  This is their vengeance - hence the  WMF is like a bear with a sore head. poke it and it uses your hard earned donations to fight you.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * ,, , After a bit of consideration, I decided to cut out the plea for 'ongoing support'. I have also submitted the proposal over on meta and redirected this page to it. Thanks for all your input folks. The proposal can still be discussed and worked on for the next couple weeks. —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  07:40, 30 October 2018 (UTC)