User talk:Iry-Hor/Archive 4

"extend texts"

 * I'm not sure anyone has as yet defined what you mean by "extend text". What is it that makes it what it is and not something else. Can you provide a cite?


 * We might differentiate between a knife handle, a mace head, an ivory label or an ostracon as artifacts with identifiable glyphs and items such as the Narmer Palette as artifacts with identifiable glyphs arranged according to a grammar with Verbs, Nouns and Objects in an identifiable word order.


 * In a document with registers that separate sequences of glyphs, a transition from mere rebus to actual language and from just the name of a king to king lists such as the Palermo Stone with named ancestors we may have a text.


 * In particular where with Narmer and Scorpion there are definitions of social stratification not just individually but with nome standards suggesting a feudal structure of service in return for sustenance and concepts such as vasalage, separation of church and state, the transfer of authority (based on service in return for sustenance) from ancestors to descendants, and all the necessary prerequisites for the pyramid texts, medical texts and architectural engineering texts that depend on temples and priests establishing institutions that educate, teach reading writing and arithmetic according to standards and allow licensure and certification in professions that may include scribes who can read and write and do sums as competent administrators, judges, lawyers, politicians, there are expectations of the writing being according to standards.


 * Scorpion Macehead Nome StandardsKing Den's Sandal Label nome standard c 3000 BC [ http://abemkemet.blogspot.com/2012_05_01_archive.html Narmer Palette nome standards] nome standardsBattlefield Palette nome standardsNarmer StanceNarmer Macehead — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.187.94.249 (talk) 11:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

@Iry-Hor: Right. There was no real text until king Seth-Peribsen. '''@IP. 12.187.95.149:'''
 * define real text


 * Look at the man with the plants growing out of his head through the register line in the center. That's Aker. Who exactly claims that? Sources? In fact, it is a falling enemy named Njw by the tiny hieroglyph left of him. And the papyrus stems do not grow outta his head, they grow outta the thick line above the guy. The arrangement reads Ta-hash, meaning "land of papyrus" - that's the name of the delta region.
 * M15 papyrus grow out of a pot. idhw or dyt papyrus marsh, or #h thicket of papyrus
 * M16 papyrus grow out of a pot without the downward facing stems. phoenetic h3, Det. T3-mhw the delta with the glyph for land.
 * What's shown on Narmer is a personified M8 pool with lotus flowers sh3. Its personified because its associated with a human figure for whom Horus is performing the ritual of opening the ways, not a ritual performed on enemies. it has the meaning lotus pool or meadow, and from pyramid i3hi is ideo. with the meaning be innundated, 3ht innundation season which you should admit is more appropriate for a palette portraying Narmer at the Heb Sed festival. 12.187.94.249 (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To his right is Horus perched on the House of Narmer as if it were a serekh. Actually, it IS Narmer's serekh...
 * No its of the form O10 rather than O33 with Narmers glyphs inside it. You also see that with Den (hand over water or measured water)
 * Most Serekhs look like O33. The Egyptians don't generally name enemies except on a shield below them. Typically royal names not in a serekh are in a cartouch or in glyphs in front of the king.


 * Look at the personified field Horus is portrayed as opening the ways... The back of the enemy with the papyrus stems is the same arrangement as the thickened line with plants on the label. Again it's Ta-hash. The circumstance, that it has a human, bearded head, is just a frigurely metapher to show, that there was war and the king (in shape of Horus) had won.
 * ...using the tool of the Ka priest... Where did you get the information, that the rope was a "tool of the priest"?
 * the ceremony of opening the mouth The Ka priest uses the ntjrwy tool to open the mouth. Essentially its a hook on a string that goes down the nose and clears blood and mucus from the sinus cavity so the deceased can get his ankh (life breath) in the after life.12.187.94.249 (talk) 12:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * How often do you see dead enemies labeled city and protection? Lol... everywhere? :D EVERY depiction of the traditional "smiting the enemy" calls the name of the enemy: under king Khufu, for example, the enemy is called "troglodyte". On EVERY ivory label showing war the enemy is also named: under king Djer, for example, the enemy is called Iwntjw ("folk of the archers") and Setjet ("the asians"). And in the tomb of king Qa'a several elongated ivory platelets depict captured enemies called Setjet and Nju.


 * The question was "How often do you see dead enemies labeled city and protection?" You apparently have never seen dead enemies labled city and protection. When you respond try responding to what I asked you. Its false that every "smiting" is of an enemy let alone a named enemy. In many cases its better understood to be the king taking the Narmer stance to assert the right to control vassals,

and have the say of the land and water so he can distribute sustenance in return for service.


 * All of those are Egypts vassals rather than its enemies. These Hyksos entering Egypt c 1900 BC are labeled and numbered. The king protects his vassals and they stay under his control. Read the names off the shields all those who have bows and arrows are soldiers. Only those with their arms tied behind them or with axes as weapons are hfty enemies. If you read the shields of the soldiers what you get is a list of all the places the king campaigned. Most are city states. He campaigns to show the flag and keep the peace unless there is rebellion in which case he may fight an enemy such as the king of Kadesh. See if you can find the name of the king of Kadesh.12.187.94.249 (talk) 14:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Enemy prisoners named as rebellious vassals
 * unnamed enemy prisoners
 * Book of Gates named
 * unbound vassals
 * unbound unnamed vassals

12.187.94.249 (talk) 15:17, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Aker is indeed shown as a double headed lion or as a double headed bull. But wehere does such a deity appear on the Narmer palette???
 * Refer to Gardiner Aker p 550.Dnasty 3 st3t aroura, irrigated field."p6 Faulkner "Middle Egyptian 3kr n, div earth god Aker pyr 796 Urk V, 205, 17 the earth itself pyr 325; pl earth gods, pyr 393 det. G7 2202, TY 59,3,det. I14 hf3w det. king hm majesty" The determinative shows Horus on a standard over 3 dots.

@Til: Right, many egyptologists say these might be the names of chieftains or kings that notified themself on the colossi. Others, such as Ludwig D. Morenz, are not so sure and interprete them as the name of nomes in which Min was worshipped. --Nephiliskos (talk) 11:49, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If you are familiar with the Egyptian glyphs for Buildings and parts of Buildings, Gardiner section O, take a look at O1. Its the glyph for house and its portrayed in plan. O33 which is serekh like is seen as the facade of a building. O6 is seen in plan, O10 as a combination of O6 and G5 is a rectangular enclosure seen in Plan. Essentially O6 is a compound with a garden plot in it, not a facde with a door in it. Sereks are sometimes identified as in elevation but by the convention of O6 they are portraying a compound with a house and fields. In Den's serekh there is the addition of water. His entire corpus shows that it is his control of the water is what gives him control of the land. That's the essence of the Heb sed festival, the king opens the dikes and releases the innundation of the lands. The Nome standards are combined with O36 inb which is the wall of a city. Predynastic cities might have as many as 5000 people in Naqada 1. Those 5000 people might represent 100 families living in a settlement with 4000 workers, field laborers, peasants tending their fields in satellite villages as extended family living within a nome and 42 nomes spread out along the length of the Nile. cities with the glyph of the builder and an adze or mr[Wikipedia Nomes] 12.187.94.249 (talk) 12:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Again: From which book do you receive your informations? Until now it all seems to be your very own view. I hope at least that you understand, that we will never allow private views to be mentioned in any article.--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:20, 28 September 2013 (UTC)I cited a lot of online sources, google books and wikipedia articles. In my personal Library I use Gardiner "Egyptian Grammar", Faulkner "Middle Egyptian", Lobrieno "Ancient Egyptian", Budge,"Gods of the Egyptians" Wilkenson, Gillings "Mathematics in the Time of the Pharoahs", Somers Clark and R. Englebach" Ancient Egyptian Construction and Architecture", Baines and Malek, "Atlas of Ancient Egypt" Barbara Mertz, "Tombs Temples and Hieroglyphs", Michael Rice, "Egypts Making", various papers reported in Archaeology or the BAR, All the Oriental Institure, Palette Corpus, Tomb inscription documents I can find and of course I read the inscriptions themselves 12.187.94.249 (talk) 12:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Then you should have mentioned earlier, I'm sorry.
 * About Websites: It might be just my personal opinion, but if I were you, I would better keep my fingers off those websites. Most of them are private and if you look closer, many of them list no sources, so you can't proof the informations. Xoomer.it for example presents lots of interesting and rare pictures of objects, but the host of the website spells authors, titles and/or booksites horribly wrong, so in German Wiki (where I work on early egyptian articles) we decided to not use such private websites.
 * About books: The books you mentioned are barely useful to work on Early Egyt. I know them and the problem is, that the authors talk about Egyptians of Middle Kindom and later. You can't just project the knowledge and cultural circumstances of the Late Egypt onto the Early dynastic Egypt!


 * Anthony Loprieno "Ancient Egyptian" specifically focuses on ancient Egypian. For comparison purposes I also look at John Heise for Akkadian, and John Halloran for Sumerian. For Hittite I go to Ancient Hittite Sentence Structure and for some of the forms used in ancient Egyptian Sylvia Luraghi Mesopotamia 10. Some of my information comes from exchanges with Juris Zahrin and others studying the Arabian Penninsula's International trade with Egypt. 12.187.94.249 (talk) 22:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

So, if we want to represent the dozens of different interpretations concerning the Narmer palette, no problem... but we both should use and mention the books in the article(s). --Nephiliskos (talk) 14:15, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My private librabry includes: T.H. Wilkinson, Wolfgang Helck, Nicolas Grimal, Ludwig D. Morenz, Alan Hendrix Gardiner, D. D. Baker, Silke Roth, W.B. Emery, H.A. Schlögl, P.E. Newberry and Jochem Kahl. I also got several pdf.-files with exerpts and articles from Newberry, Günter Dreyer and Miroslav Bárta.


 * I agree with Nephi, a list of books is useless in itself, the citations must be put in the article next to every claim made in the article, as I said already in the talk page of Ancient Egyptian units of measurement. Also 12.187.94.249, you have to admit being wrong about extend texts c. 3000 BC and other spurious claims regarding the chronology (like 3rd dynasty around 3000 BC). The problem for me is, these claims, when put in relation with all the references you cite, show that *sometimes* you may not use this references accurately. Thus it is important that every info be separately sourced so we can all verify its validity. &#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Everything is referenced in the article. I have no problem with that. I referenced a 3rd Dynasty Ostracon, (not an extended text) in Ancient_Egyptian_units_of_measurement‎, and properly referenced it to Somers Clark and R. Englebach "Ancient Egyptian Construction and Architecture with publisher, location, date, and ISBN. On the talk page and here I gave you the Google Books version.


 * We both know the exact dating for the 3rd dynasty is conjectural. It could easily be plus or minus 300 years and its subject to change every time a new report comes out.


 * As for "extend texts" I asked you for a definition and cites. You haven't provided them so there has been some discussion here as to what makes them what they are and not something else. You claim to have Gardiner and Faulkner but you haven't responded to my cites of book and page regarding the naming of so called enemies as Narmers ancestors "city" and "protection" or to Faulkners assertions as to the role of Aker the Earth god in the Heb sed festival and the opening of the ways.


 * Its hard to see what your complaint is when you don't address the math of the ostracon but jump to talking about extend texts as if it was one.


 * As for Narmer and Scorpion, the Palermo Stone kings list, the Pyramid Texts and the Medical texts as far as I can tell you are claiming that prior to c 3000 BC there was no written Egyptian language, no texts, no teachers, no grammar, no scribes developing the format and rules for writing or mathematics; no "extend texts.


 * After 3000 BC (or maybe before that possibly 3100, or 3200, or even 3400) there was suddenly presented fully formed all the necessary written administrative language to make a measured architectural drawing for a compound with a mile long perimeter, to order the pieces of mastaba tombs made to a given number and dimension precisely sufficient to carry their assigned load, to order cedar from Byblos and stone from Aswan, to assign quarry's workmen sufficient to carry out their tasks; to transition overnight from agricultural nomes loosely organized by gene, oinkos and phratre, to a state capable of recruiting workers and troops, collecting taxes, separating secular from religious tasks, waging wars doing what was right and proper. You should be citing your sources for that to me 12.187.94.249 (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * We both know the exact dating for the 3rd dynasty is conjectural no it is not !!! Maybe you do not know very well the literrature on the subject but the latest carbon 14 dating of Djoser's reign is between 2691 and 2625 BC (Christopher Bronk Ramsey et al., Radiocarbon-Based Chronology for Dynastic Egypt, Science 18 June 2010: Vol. 328. no. 5985, pp. 1554 - 1557). There virtually nobody in Egyptology today claiming the 3rd dynasty is c. 3000 BC and nobody to claim error margins of over 300 years at the time. We all know what an extend text is, the pyramid texts of Unas, the story of Sinuhe, the papyrus Westcar are all examples. You say: Its hard to see what your complaint is when you don't address the math of the ostracon but jump to talking about extend texts as if it was one., this is scandalous ! What you wrote was full of mistakes and conjectures, just believing that Pi was known to such an accuracy at the time is greatly suspicious. Extraordinary claim require extraordinary evidence. I am still waiting for a reference by a serious egyptologist backing your claim. You say : As for Narmer and Scorpion, the Palermo Stone kings list, the Pyramid Texts and the Medical texts as far as I can tell you are claiming that prior to c 3000 BC there was no written Egyptian language, no texts, no teachers, no grammar, no scribes developing the format and rules for writing or mathematics;  again this is scandalous do you even read what I write ??? I said that phonetic writing was already in use by 3200 BC as seen on the labels from tomb U-j, which means there must have been people litterate in the use of signs, so proto-scribes I guess, but I am still to see references claiming to have uncover scribes with extend texts at the time ! There is no need of texts for surgery, basic mathematics and of course grammar (which is part of a spoken language) to exist ! After 3000 BC (or maybe before that possibly 3100, or 3200, or even 3400) there was suddenly presented fully formed all the necessary written administrative language to make a measured again you are making stuff up from your lack of knowledge of the period ! There is a progressive apparition of longer and longer written records, as Nephiliskos said, the first complete sentence dates from Peribsen. Clearly there must have been written things similar to that prior to Peribsen but none has survived to this day (that we know of). I am not stupid and I don't live in a fantasy world where everything sprung up at the time of the 3rd dynasty and I do not have to cite sources for that to you, as I am not writing a wiki article on texts or the value of Pi with my own opinions in it ! &#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 09:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The Third Dynasty of Egypt follows a Civil War at the end of the Second Dynasty which is very poorly documented as to dates as is the first. The kings included in the Third Dynasty differ according to which text you go by. Because of the Civil War its unclear which kings ruled all of Egypt which years, and which were contemporary ruling in different parts.


 * "After the turbulent last years of the Second Dynasty which may have included civil war, Egypt came under the rule of Djoser and this marks the beginning of the Third Dynasty.[1] Both the Turin King List and the Abydos King List record five kings,[2] while the Saqqara Tablet only records four.


 * The Turin King List gives: Nebka, Djoser, Djoserti, Hudjefa I and Huni
 * The Abydos King List gives: Nebka, Djoser, Teti, Sedjes and Neferkare
 * The Saqqara Tablet gives: Djoser, Djoserteti, Nebkare and Huni

The archaeological evidence shows that Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of the Second Dynasty, was succeeded by Djoser, who is usually attested by his Horus name Netjeriket. Djoser’s successor was Sekhemkhet who had the nebty name Djeserty. The last king of the dynasty is Huni. There are three remaining Horus names of known 3rd dynasty kings: Sanakht, Khaba and perhaps Qahedjet. One of these three went by the nebty name Nebka.[2]

Dating the Third Dynasty is similarly challenging. Shaw gives the dates as being approximately from 2686 to 2613 BC.[3] The Turin King List suggests a total of 75 years for the third dynasty. Baines and Malek have placed the third dynasty as spanning the years 2650 – 2575 BC,[2] while Dodson and Hilton date the dynasty to 2584 – 2520 BC. It is not uncommon for these estimates to be off by more than a century.[1]"


 * You say "the latest carbon 14 dating of Djoser's reign is between 2691 and 2625 BC. Carbon dating is not always precise. "The data [in the Table] are separated into two groups—Egyptian and non-Egyptian. This separation was made because the whole Egyptian chronology is interlocking and subject to possible systematic errors . . .” Also, “Egyptian historical dates beyond 4000 years ago may be somewhat too old, perhaps 5 centuries too old at 5000 years ago. . .” (Science, 140, 278)."


 * Now if Djoser is the second king which two out of three lists agree he is, we have to figure the third dynasty started either 19 years earlier by the Turin List or 28 years earlier if we use Mantheo's Necherophes. Wikipedia makes Nebka the third king and Djoser the first. In the Timeline the starting date is given as 2686; in the chronology graphic its 2668. Swelim shows nine kings spanning 138 years, Wikipedia shows five kings.


 * Where other sources see questions you see certainty. Where you demand sources and cites for the studies of others, for your own opinions you claim there is no need. True this is just your talk page, but you want to be taken seriously as someone whose judgement should decide what does and does not go into Wikipedia articles.


 * You claim "There is no need of texts for surgery, basic mathematics and of course grammar (which is part of a spoken language) to exist in a written language. Lets start with the [medical texts.] Wikipedia cites "the discovery of several sets of extensive ancient medical documents, including the Ebers papyrus, the Edwin Smith Papyrus, the Hearst Papyrus, the London Medical Papyrus and others dating back as far as 3000 BC. The Edwin Smith Papyrus is a textbook on surgery and details anatomical observations and the "examination, diagnosis, treatment, and prognosis" of numerous ailments.[1] It was probably written around 1600 BC, but is regarded as a copy of several earlier texts. Medical information in it dates from as early as 3000 BC.[2] Imhotep in the 3rd dynasty is credited as the original author of the papyrus text, and founder of ancient Egyptian medicine. The earliest known surgery was performed in Egypt around 2750 BC."
 * [mathematics] was used to reestablish fields washed away by floods, to lay out buildings including Mastabah tombs predating the pyramids, for administrative tasks such as accounting. "Written evidence of the use of mathematics dates back to at least 3000 BC with the ivory labels found at Tomb Uj at Abydos. These labels appear to have been used as tags for grave goods and some are inscribed with numbers.[1] Further evidence of the use of the base 10 number system can be found on for instance the Narmer Macehead which depicts offerings of 400,000 oxen, 1,422,000 goats and 120,000 prisoners.[2]"
 * The [Pyramid of Djoser] had precedents "Djoser’s Pyramid draws ideas from several precedents. The most relevant precedent is found at Saqqara mastaba 3038.[6] The substructure lay in a 4m deep rectangular pit, and had mudbrick walls rising to 6 m. Three sides were extended and built out to create eight shallow steps rising at an angle of 49°.[6] This would have been an elongated step pyramid if the remaining side had not been left uncovered. In another parallel to Djoser’s complex, to complete this mastaba complex a niched enclosure wall was erected.[6] Furthermore, the pyramid substructure is reminiscent of the plan of Khasekhemwy’s mud-brick funerary enclosure at Abydos.[5]"
 * As regards grammar giving a written instruction to a workman as to how to construct an arched vault requires not only some knowledge of the relation of a circles diameter to its circumference but a means of putting it in writing by means of a formula. [Arched vaults] don't just happen by accident.12.187.95.101 (talk) 15:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

'''@IP. 12.187.95.101:''' You write:
 * The Third Dynasty of Egypt follows a Civil War at the end of the Second Dynasty which is very poorly documented as to dates as is the first. The kings included in the Third Dynasty differ according to which text you go by. Because of the Civil War its unclear which kings ruled all of Egypt which years, and which were contemporary ruling in different parts. Ummm, not fully correct. Newest evaluations raise doubts about the theory, that there was a civil war under Khasekhemwy (see Wilkinson, Grimal, TeVelde and Newberry). The problem is, that the stone statues of Khas. indeed talk about a war in the delta region and west of it. But the enemy is called Sequa ("Shepherds") and the hairstyle and clothes of the depicted enemies make clear, that they were Lybians rather than Egyptians. Furthermor the scholars point out, that any civil war would be against the states principles: Lower and Upper Egypt were always worshipped as brothers and twins (which is perfectly shown in the double serekh of Sekhemib and Khasekhemwy).
 * Carbon dating is not always precise... No one claims that. But it is surely more precisely than private calculations.
 * Arched vaults don't just happen by accident. Again, no one claims that. And you need mo mega-complex mathematic formula to create an arch...

The Ebers papyrus, the Edwin Smith Papyrus, the Hearst Papyrus and the London Medical Papyrus indeed give tipps and advises how to treat numerous illnesses. But: These text were written 2400 years AFTER the beginning of the 1st dynasty. The claims within the medical textes, that some of the treatments would date back to kings such as Den, Sened and Neferkasokar, are nothing but fiction, made up in attempt to make the advises sound more credible and traditional. The implausibility of these claims is based on the circumstances, that the names of Den and Sened are written as Cartouche names, which is anachronistical (at their life times these kings didn't use a Cartouche name, because it were not introduced yet) and king Neferkasokar is today seen as fictitious. What's more, the Cartouche names of Den and Sened are written in a style not common before the 19th dynasty: Khasty is written with two nome-signs (the original version gives two desert-signs and a bread loaf), Sened with the sign of a plucked goose (the oldest, contemporary form is written with three separate vowels).--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The "Shephards" or Foreign kings began coming into Egypt's delta very early requiring that the Egyptians build emporia and fortify their borders long before the first intermediate. Loprieno "Ancient Egyptian discusses influences from western Asia, Mesopotamia, Palestine, Syria, Arabia Ethiopia and the Arabian peninsula to include Akkadian, Old Babylonian and Old Assyrian as linguistic influences on Egyptian divided into two dialects and four typological phases page 2. Page 3 he discusses the influences of the Berber languages in Western Egypt. The salt trade with Libya included seven major areas, the Morocan Atlas, Central Algeria, the Algerian coast, the Gebel Nefusa the Atlantic Mauretanian coast, the central Sahara and the oasis of Siwa in the western delta of Egypt.


 * In this area there also settled Mycenean Greeks. The Siwa in the west although a part of the Nile Delta rather than the pyramid building areas would have been considered as much Egyptian as Libyan and indeed were tasked with the raising of the Apis bulls. In addition to Berber there were the Cushitic languages from the Egyptian border in northeast Sudan to Ethiopia, Djibouti, Somalia, Kenya and northern Tanzania. As far as civil wars, the entire history of Egypt is full of campaigns to pasify vassals in the Eastern desert, the Sinai, Canaan and the delta. Many early palettes show captives some of whom became willingly or unwillingly a part of the corvee labor system, mercenary soldiers, displaced agricultural workers, vagrants, bandits, and rebels. Whats civil war and what's an intermediate period of expansion or contraction in the predynastic and early dynasties is hard to say.


 * Your discussion of royal names and cartouches is interesting. Loprieno discusses how hieroglyphic orthography developed in the Old Kingdom in such a way that signs relating to the divine or Royal sphere usually proceeded in the writing any other sign belonging to the same compound noun. The development of cartouches when the copies of earlier texts were made would have inserted them as a part of the hieroglyphic orthodoxy the way most people citing the documents of the founding fathers would not substitute an "f" for an "s".


 * Budge "The Nile" gives all the Egyptian cartouches that had been found to that date and its interesting to observe how who is included and the spelling of the names of kings in cartouches has changed in relatively modern times. Technically Den should be written "dn" but we seem to feel the need for vowels. Your claim that Mantheo's Neferkasokar is fictitious seems hard to make agree with the evidence of the name. For the first Dynasty from Thinis he dates to 4400 BC Budge gives, 1. ,2. ,3. ,4. ,5., 6. ,7. ,or , 8. , in cartouches saying the Egyptians never divided their kings into dynasties and this arrangement is due to Mantheo. Obviously some names and dates have been dropped and the apparent reason is uncertainty as to who is really a king and who just a lugal or strong man ursurping kingship with a label. For Dynasty 2. from Thinis which he dates to 4133 Budge gives 9. , 10. ,11. ,12. ,13. , 14. ,{Perabsen}15. ,16. ,17.{Nefer ka seker} ,(all using the prefix suten net king of the North and South)


 * "Neferkasokar appears in the Saqqara king list from the tomb of the high priest Tjuneroy, where he is recorded as succeeding king Neferkare I and proceeds king Hudjefa I in the ninth cartouche. He also appears in the Royal Canon of Turin as the successor of a king Neferka and as the predecessor of king Hudjesa I. His cartouche can be found in column III, line 1. The Turin papyrus records him having a reign of 8 years and 3 months. Furthermore Neferkasokar's name appears on a steatite cylinder seal of unknown provenance. The inscription bears the king's name twice within royal cartouches. Interestingly, the first cartouche shows the name of the god Sokar on top, whilst the second cartouche places the syllable Neferka above the god's name." 12.187.95.101 (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Where you (Iry Hor) say "you need mo mega-complex mathematic formula to create an arch..." What instruction would you give a workman to create the arch of the mortuary temple at the stepped pyramid at Saqarra? Would you just say I want the roof to be arched and leave it up to them, or would you design it so that it wouldn't fail by being too small in section to take its load, or so large and heavy it created the load that made it fail. The roof has lasted for five millenia so somebody did it right and so did the architect who left the ostracon giving a method of constructing a circular arch at 3rd Dynasty Saqarrah. 12.187.95.101 (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually I am not the one who said that, it was Nephiliskos. To be honest, having never built a vault myself, I am unsure about the amount of math required for this. All I know is that there were large buildings long before the invention of writing. So somehow speaking seems to have been enough in many cases. Furthermore, your line of argument is distorted: you take the step pyramid as a counter example, when we all agree that by the 3rd dynasty, writing was well under way and some primitive mathematics were undoubtedly used. However, note that the Egypitan architects were not miracle workers and their techniques not so amazing after all: indeed, the bent pyramid and others are examples of failures and trials. Even the cracks in Khufu's chamber are a testimony to that.&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 08:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Huni again
Hi. Lol, I found yet more informations and expanded the article anew. ;-) Could you do me the favour and proof read it? I also need help with linking dynasties. Your help would be SO great! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:40, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, but what do you mean "linking dynasties"?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 15:03, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you read the first and fourth section you'll see that I wrote things like "4th dynasty". "19th dynasty" and so on. These should be internal linked, shouldn't they? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:07, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Done !&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 17:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Super!!! I also made several private evaluations of the hellenized names of the first three dynasties and which one belongs to which king. Wanna see the result? ;-) Regards; --Nephiliskos (talk) 18:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes please ! &#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 18:25, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok, then take a look here. ;-)) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait you identify Khaba with Huni ??&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 19:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

* lough!* :-DDDD I see two possibilities: "Huni" was once the Horus name of that king, until later peoples put it into a cartouche, as they did in the cases of Peribsen and Sened. The other possibility is based on Wilkinson, Grimal and Schlögl. See Huni's article in section "Horusnames". Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * And about the identification Huni/Mesochris, how do you know how Huni's name was pronounced ?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 20:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm in accordance with Miroslav Bárta and Hans Gödicke, who both read Ny-swteh (see their newest publication after a finding in 2010 at Abusir), but I translate it different, though. I read "Ny-Swteh" and translate "He belongs to Seth" (there were four different writings for the name of Seth). Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes but I mean how do you know how it was pronunced (i.e. spoken) ? You say Ny-swteh sounds closely like how Mesochris was pronounced. I can understand that we know today how ancient Greek was pronounced but the Egyptian of the 3rd dynasty...&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 20:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hehehe, in this point you are surely right. I simply rely on Egyptologists and Linguists. But, of course I must admit, tat even the scholars don't really know how to pronounce hieroglyphs correctly. They point out, that a few documents of the greek era in Egypt show, that the greek scholars often wrote names down as they sounded to them. Most of today comes from an early coptic dialect. But of course it's not THE Egyptian language... Again, I simply rely on the phonetic transcription Egyptologists and Linguists purport. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:48, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah ok I understand. You think Mesochris is a phonetic retranscription in Greek of how Huni's name sounded when said in Egyptian by the time of Manetho. Am I right ?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

You got it!^^ That's exactly what I'm (and many Egyptologists and Linguists, too) thinking. See, according to famous Linguists such as Gardiner, Morenz and Beinlich the Egyptian reading and speaking underwent several more or less minor changes when more new hieroglyphic signs were introduced. An well example is the ram-hieroglyph. In early dynastic times (from dynasty 0 to dynasty 4) it was read Ser. From the midst of dynasty 4 onward it was read Ser and Ba. And from Middle Kindgom the ram was read only Ba. See the changing? ;)

Other hieroglyphs were simply replaced by other signs, which though had the same meaning, thus the name of s.o. or s.t. wouldn't be changed. These lil' phonetic and writing changes due time caused amusing problems to the ramesside scribes, when they compiled the kinglists. Example: King Hor-Den's throne name. He was named Khasty, written Desert + Desert + Broad leaf. The symbolic meaning was "He of the two lands". Ramesside scribes replaced the signs by two nome-hieroglyphs, because -in their eyes- the desert-signs didn't make the message clear enough.

Another funny problem was, that due the first dynasties the Egyptians used signs, which became forgotten. An example of this is king Semerkhet, his Nebty- and Birth name was written with the figure of a king wearing a bag-wig, a ceremonial beard, a long cloak and a long staff with a knob-shaped end. The ramesside scribes were helpless when trying to read that figure, because it wasn't in use anymore. Some of the scribes simply imitated the figure (after the motto who cares how it must be read, at least we copied it correctly...). Others thought it to be an archaic form of the figure for an old nomarch with a walking stick. This hieroglyph reads Semsw or Semsem (meaning "the eldest"). The Turin canon shows two "s"-signs and two owl-signs, each rotatory - it simply gives the full phonetic writing for Semsem. ;-)

At the end we can say, that after thousands of years, in which the hieroglyphs underwent several orthographic reforms, it is not surprising anymore that ancient scholars such as Manetho and Herodot and the Egyptians of their lifetime were unable to tell, how the archaic names had to be read. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think it is not possible to know how Egyptian names sounded, especially so far back in time. The only exception may be the Amarna letters where the name of Egyptian kings were written phonetically in Akkadian. From this, it seems that Nebmaatre sounded somenthing like Nimmureya.&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 08:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I personally absolute favorise Morenz, Gardiner and Beinlich when questioning the phonetics of Egypt. According to them, the name Akhenaten sounds more like "Akhanjaty"... It's highly interesting. What I personally do not understand, is, why the shissldeedissl the greeks didn't take the opportunity and wrote a phonetic book... I just don't get it. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian Phoenetics
Anthony Loprieno "Ancient Egyptian" discusses the 2.2 historical development of the system. The basic principles of hieroglyphic writing, giving a table of monoconsonantal signs with transliteration and Phonological value p 15. In 2.3 connotational devices in the hieroglyph system he discusses the acrophonic principal. In 2.4 the historical development of Egyptian writing he discusses how "the principles from section 2.2 and the devices from section 2.3 characterize the entire hieroglyphic writing and its manual derivatives in their historical development. They represent the common denominator of the system from its onset at the end of the predynastic period (about 3100 BCE)to the final dissapearance of hieroglyphs and Demotic in the fourth and fifth century CE." He observes "six typological phases in the history of Egyptian writing" in which the earliest archaic period runs "from the last kings of the predynastic period at Abydos, (Scorpion, Iri-Hor, Ka, Narmer) at the end of the fourth millenium to the establishment of a rather complete set of mono and biconsonontal phonograms by the end of Dynasty III (about 2700 BCE)" "In these early inscriptions on seals, seal impressions, palettes, short funery stele and other monuments pertsining to the royal or administrative sphere phonological and semantic principles are already intertwined with a high number of the signs functioning as logograms. For example the name of the last predynastic king Narmer (about 3000 BC) in Egyptian n'r-mr"striking catfish" is written with the logogram "catfish" followed by the biconsonontal sign  indicating the two phonems /m-r/: this later sign is a pictogram representing a chisel and bears no transparent etymological connection to its use as a phonogram in the word mr "sick": the reading is derived by means of the rebus principal"12.187.95.184 (talk) 12:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes we are all aware of these notes here, only you seem to be discovering the rebus-principle, the earliest example of which is the word Baset from the label of tomb U-j (as discussed before). Also note, you are wrong about the sign for Narmer's fish, it is the following:

&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 13:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The most common, symbolic translation of Narmer's name is "stinging catfish" or "striking catfish". According to Helck, Wilkinson and TeVelde this meaning makes lots of sence, if one sees which heraldic animal was chosen: Malapterurus electricus, the "Electroshock catfish". This large fish can knock off preys and enemies with strong electric shocks emitting from over his body (except tail fin and head). One of the natural habitats up to this day is the blue nile and in early egyptian time the fish was a very important food source. But the Egyptians were also very afraid of the electric shocks the fish can send off. Thus one can perfectly imagine, why the Egyptians decided the electric catfish to be a fierceful being and worshipped him. ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the .png from De.Wikipedia, as an En.Wikipedia user I'm curious why this wasn't uploaded with Gardiner numbers so it can be used as hiero, maybe because there aren't any. In quoting Loprieno I'm using the best approximation to the glyph he uses in his text. I agree that your Nar-Wels.png looks more like Narmers glyph. Perhaps this is because Loprieno calls out a striking catfish rather than a stinging catfish his glyph is a little different. Its also possible he just used a Gardiner number as did I.


 * I was responding to your alleged difficulty in knowing how ancient Egyptian was pronounced
 * The Buzz words you might have responded to from the above quotation from Anthony Loprieno's "Ancient Egyptian" include
 * historical development of the system.
 * The basic principles of hieroglyphic writing,
 * a table of monoconsonantal signs with transliteration and Phonological value
 * connotational devices in the hieroglyph system
 * the acrophonic principal.
 * how "the principles from section 2.2 and the devices from section 2.3 characterize the entire hieroglyphic writing
 * its manual derivatives in their historical development.
 * the common denominator of the system
 * its onset at the end of the predynastic period (about 3100 BCE)to the final disappearance of hieroglyphs and Demotic
 * the "six typological phases in the history of Egyptian writing"
 * the earliest archaic period "from the last kings of the predynastic period at Abydos, (Scorpion, Iri-Hor, Ka, Narmer)
 * the establishment of a rather complete set of mono and biconsonontal phonograms by the end of Dynasty III (about 2700 BCE)
 * "these early inscriptions on seals, seal impressions, palettes, short funery stele and other monuments pertaining to the royal
 * administrative sphere phonological and semantic principles
 * Their being already intertwined with a high number of the signs functioning as logograms.
 * in the name of the last predynastic king Narmer (about 3000 BC) in Egyptian n'r-mr "striking catfish"
 * the logogram followed by the biconsonontal sign indicating the two phonems /m-r/:
 * this later sign is a pictogram, it bears no transparent etymological connection to its use as a phonogram
 * You could have addressed logograms, pictograms or phonograms.
 * Instead you chose to focus on what it isn't as "in the word mr "sick": the reading is derived by means of the rebus principal"12.187.95.184 (talk) 19:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Unknown protodynastic object
Hello Iry-hor. As planned, this weekend I will go to the museum, hoping to take some nice scarabs shots. Apart from that, in recent days I was in Munich where I stumbled across the local Egyptian Museum, I took some photos that I've started to upload on Commons. Flipping through the photos I made, I noticed that for one of these I unfortunately have not photographed the caption: all that I can say about this picture is that it shows an hemispherical stone object carved with a serekh that I'm not able to read. As I can see, you are quite expert of Pre- and Protodynastic, so I was wondering if I could send to you this pic (via PM) for your opinion before I upload it on Commons. --Khruner (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I am stunned by the predynastic statue, which you say bears a scorpion (unfortunately invisible on the photo). Is this really a predynastic statue ? The way the arms are carved make me think of the McGregor man, but here the statue is much finer. What an amazing surprise ! Please send me the other pic by PM !!! &#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 14:05, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi! This statue torso is LEGEND. ;-) The scorpion figure is said to be faintly visible incarved on the left side of the thorax. If you whish, I gonna search for infos about the object and eventual disputes. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:19, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes I am very intrigued by the statue ! Wait to see the secon object, it will blow your mind.&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 20:46, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Then I will dig out my precious books to collect some infos I could put into the article about Scorpion II. I bet you will like it! And I in turn wait for the blow.^^ Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile I have started to greatly edit and correct the content of Scorpion II. I must say, that I had to correct or replace several sources, one of the websites was 'dead', so I eliminated it. And in fact it is unknown, to whom king Scorpion was married. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes the pic will definitely surprise you. I am just waiting for Khruner to post it on commons. &#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 08:13, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Good morning everyone. Sorry I kept you waiting... As I can read, you surely have a true passion for Pre-Proto-Early Dynastic :) I've uploaded the object (looks like a sort of doorstop for me...) on Commons. Of course, any additional information that you may find on these two objects will be welcome. Khruner (talk) 09:11, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Awesome, here it is:&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 10:56, 12 October 2013 (UTC)



WOW... simply AWESOME... If you like, I gonna find informations in my books about it, today I wanted to expand Scorpion II anyway. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:10, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * But do you know what this is ? I suggested it could be some sort of funerary stele. I am almost certain it must be from Abydos.&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 14:46, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

It should be some kind of door marker. These were placed directly in front of each foot of a door jamb to the entrance of the tomb itself. Or at the door to the king's chamber. Tomb stelas were much bigger and shaped like modern tomb stones - see kings such as Djer, Djet and Qa'a. The tomb stelas were placed in front of the door jambs of the necropolis or placed at the free space between tomb entrance and necropolis entrance. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:56, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Well that's what Khruner thought. To me the object really looked like a funerary item. I am glad to see both intuitions were correct and thanks for the expert help !&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 14:58, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * But be careful: Such door markers were not integrated into the door jamb, but placed independently and directly before. Besides: Did you know? There's another royal door jamb: it belonged to king Den. ;-) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you have a pic of Den's one ?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 15:17, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately not... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:19, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is a pic of it:. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Right, it's Den's stela but I thought you meant that there was one of Den's door markers.&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 20:55, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * To be honest: I don't believe that this is the tomb stela - the style contradicts the stylistic rules for tomb stelas! Just compare it to the stelas of Djer, Djet and Qa'a. Regards; --Nephiliskos (talk) 21:00, 12 October 2013 (UTC) Besides: I have again edited and expanded Scorpion II's article, especially the description and evaluation of the macehead. Hope you enjoy. ;-)


 * Hello. After some research it seems to me that Narmer's doorstop most likely come from a place called Minshat Abu Omar, in the eastern Delta. The same argument could maybe be applied to Scorpion's torso. I never heard of this site before, does anybody know more about it? Khruner (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Khruner. Minshat Abu-Omar is a well known archaeological site, several proto- and early dynastic tombs and objects were found there. Don't we have an article about it? If not, I gonna find some credible sources and write one. ;-) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Akhenaten article Reassessment
The Akhenaten article is being reassessed since someone has questions on its quality and some lack of sources. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Minshat Abu Omar
Tadaaah!^^ --Nephiliskos (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice work Nephiliskos :) Furthermore, I have found the first clues I was looking for in Wilkinson's work, which mentions (p.18) the Munich Museum as the buyer of some first findings from Minshat Abu Omar. Afterwards, I found a publication describing the successive Munich expedition (Kroeper & Wildung 1985, Minshat Abu Omar: Münchner Ostdelta-Expedition Vorbericht 1978-1984) but the "doorstop" does not seem to appear among the findings. So I deduced that the object could/must be among the findings purchased before. Unfortunately, there is no doubt that mine is an original research...! Khruner (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow nice article ! I still don't understand why Narmer's doorstop would be found in the Delta. I mean it really looks like something you would find in the tomb, i.e. from Abydos. Or maybe was it part of a palace or official building at the time ?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 08:16, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know, perhaps the object isn't so closely tied to a royal tomb as we think. However, the "deltaic" origin of the doorstop is obviously my guess; I say it's likely because of the number of objects (acquired plus discovered) coming from Minshat Abu Omar and belonging to the Munich Museum, but as long as I don't have undeniable evidences, of course I'm not going to modify the caption of the photo. Khruner (talk) 11:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Iry-Hor! Meanwhile besaid article received its final fine-tuning. Hope you enjoy! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:09, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

King Scorpion II
I did it! I expanded the article as far as I could! Now, what do you think of it? I would be so happy, if you could look for links and grammatical corrections. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:12, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Pyramid of Sahure
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Pyramid of Sahure you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of LT910001 -- 11:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for nominating this article. I have been going through my open nominations. I am happy to continue the review if changes are made, otherwise will close it on the 24th-ish. Kind regards, LT910001 (talk) 11:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello I sincerely apologize for not doing the modifications you advocated. I nominated the article at a time where I had plenty of time to modify it and do some wikipedia but now I unfortunately have absolutely no time on my hands for wikipedia activities. I thank you very much for the time you devoted to the review and hope that the article one day become GA. If I renominate the article in the future, you can rest assured that I will undertake all the modifications you proposed, so your work won't be wasted. Again thank you and sorry.&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 16:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, no need to apologise! I notice you've put a lot of effort into improving the Ancient Egypt articles on wiki, and would like to recognise the effort you've put in! I encourage you to nominate when some of the concerns I raised in the review are addressed. Secondarily, how does one go about learning heiroglyphics? Cheers, LT910001 (talk) 22:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Pyramid of Sahure
The article Pyramid of Sahure you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Pyramid of Sahure for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of LT910001 -- 23:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Huni...
...has a new look and dimension. ;-)) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow impressive ! Are you going to nominate it for GA status ? &#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 20:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Dunno. I'm not so lucky with english nominations (see Khufu, for example)... ;)) But I would be mega-happy, if you would go over the article and do some grammatical and stylistic cleansweeps. ;o) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Besides: I had to fix and edit the hiero-box massively. Please keep an eye on the corrections, ok?
 * Ok I will take a look tomorrow !&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 22:21, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yay!^^ Thank you! --Nephiliskos (talk) 22:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Sock
I found - the IP 12.187.94.103 is a sock of User:Rktect (see Sockpuppet investigations/Rktect) banned (and blocked) from anything to do with measurements, etc. Thought you  might like to know. Dougweller (talk) 20:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow yes he did tons of edits I think, didn't it ?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 14:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, let me know if you see any suspicious new editors that might be him. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 09:13, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for December 22
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Merkawra Sobekhotep
Hello. Wandering on Commons as my usual I found. According to my sources, the only statues of Merkawra Sobekhotep are in London and Cairo, not in Berlin. Besides, I don't feel that this statuette represents a pharaoh at all. The uploader still does not respond, so I decided to ask if you know more about this item. Khruner (talk) 11:47, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That's clearly wrong: 1) The statue does not represent a king; 2) Sobekhotep VII was not a pharaoh of the 18th dynasty; 3) in 1425 BC, the king was either Thutmosis III or Amenhotep II. Since the legend of the photo has nearly as many errors as words, I would definitely not believe it. This is unfortunate since I would really like to have a photo for Merkawre Sobekhotep.... Also, thanks again for all your seals! I have put as many as I could on wikipedia articles!&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 11:56, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad to help :) Apart from those, I finally visited the egyptian collection in Florence so more pics are coming. Unfortunately, many objects - even with royal names! - are exibited without captions, so that these are practically un-uploadable. This is something absurd that has caused me much disappointment. Khruner (talk) 12:31, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh upload them anyway so at least we can see them. I was wondering though, if the hieroglyphs are clearly written, is it original research to say that an artifact belonged to a specific king ?&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 12:35, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I hope not, but I think so, at least someone once told me that translating from an extinct language is considered original research because is too subjective... Maybe someone else might know for sure. Khruner (talk) 12:49, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But in that case we do not even have to translate, only read the hieroglyphs, like if we read Nebmaatre Amenhotep then it has to be Amenhotep III, we do not need to translate, only transliterate, which is quite mechnical and not subjective if the signs are clearly readable !&#32;Iry-Hor (talk) 12:58, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you are right. I'll send you a collage of cartouches via e-mail :) Should not be difficult also because those cartouches should belongs almost exclusively to New Kingdom pharaohs (no SIP rulers, I'm sorry). Khruner (talk) 13:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

The god "Béhédety"
Behdety (the usual spelling in English) is a bit complicated. The simple answer is that Behdety is a form of Horus; the name often appears as Horus Behdety (or, depending how scholars choose to translate it, Horus the Behdetite). So Horus would probably be the best article to link to, but unfortunately that short, disjointed article doesn't mention Behdety. I may add something about it in the next few days, if I have time.

It's difficult to know where to put whatever I may write in that article, because Horus Behdety seems to have several meanings. "Behdet" is a name for two Egyptian towns, one somewhere in the Delta. Statues of Senusret I that show Horus and Set tying the country together label the gods as "Set the Ombite" and "Horus the Behdetite", contrasting the Upper Egyptian god of Ombos with the Lower Egyptian god of Behdet. But the other Behdet was Edfu, in Upper Egypt. The earliest reference to Horus Behdety, from the Pyramid of Djoser, connects him with Upper Egypt, whereas the Delta site of Behdet may not have been inhabited at all in early Egyptian history. Barry Kemp, in Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization (1989, pp. 27–41), gives this shuffling of deities and geographical locations as an example of the way the Egyptians constantly reinvented their traditions.

But Horus Behdety may also be a particularly solar form of Horus, because the omnipresent winged sun emblem is sometimes specifically identified as Horus Behdety. Richard H. Wilkinson, in The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, points out this connection and translates the name as "He of [the] behdet", which seems to indicate that behdet could be a common noun in Egyptian as well as a place-name. I don't know what it might mean. Another issue is that, according to Kemp, Horus Behdety is the creator god in the mythological texts in the Ptolemaic temple of Edfu. That makes sense, since Behdet is Edfu, but I don't know if Horus Behdety is portrayed as a solar god in that text. There's a whole book (The Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple by E. A. E. Reymond, 1969) analyzing the immensely complicated Edfu cosmogony, but looking through it I can't quickly find any reference to Horus Behdety. Like I said, complicated. A. Parrot (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Without knowing more about the inscription, I don't think one can assume which Behdet it might be talking about. A. Parrot (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

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Changing an article title
Changing an article title is called "moving". The detailed instructions are at Help:Moving a page. In a case like this, where nobody is likely to object to the move, all you really need to do to start the process is click on the "move" button at the top of the page. In the Vector skin, the default appearance for the English Wikipedia, the button is found under the downward-pointing triangle button at the far right of the screen, next to the search box. Once you click the button, you can type in the new title and your reasons for moving it. Fill in both of those boxes and confirm your choice with the "move page" button. All the content in the article will then appear under the new title, and the talk page will move to a matching title.

The steps after that get more complicated. Normally, when an article is moved to a new title, a redirect is created leading from the old title to the new one. But if different people use the names "Sobekhotep I" and "Sobekhotep II" to refer to Sekhemre Khutawy Sobekhotep and to Khaankhre Sobekhotep, you probably want to replace those redirects with a disambiguation page that says each of those names can refer to either king. You'll also have to check other pages that link to the old titles. I can help you with these cleanup steps, if you want.

There's also one more issue. I suggest that you take the information about the tomb from the Khaankhre Sobekhotep article and put it into the Sekhemre Khutawy Sobekhotep article after you have moved both articles to their new titles. When you do that, be sure to state in your edit summaries that you're moving the text from one article to another (for the complicated reasons why you should do that, see WP:Copying within Wikipedia).

Let me know if you need me to explain any of that more clearly. A. Parrot (talk) 18:50, 8 January 2014 (UTC)