User talk:J. Johnson

A handy collection of useful links.

Canonical IPCC citations.
The canonical forms for citing the IPCC documents are at: Ask if you have questions or need assistance.
 * SAR.
 * TAR.
 * AR4.
 * AR5.

A barnstar for you!
I loved this second sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:34, 6 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm glad someone appreciated it. (Thanks.) I've always hated "middle of the road" as a metaphor for moderation. It rather makes me want to laugh and scream at the same time. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 17:32, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Stellar body in the hayloft

 * Concur, but see Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 22, no traction. In my experience, most closes are pretty good and most receive silence (if the closer is lucky). &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  09:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Can always propose a Closer's Barnstar. I do agree with the old thread's observation that it's a one-sided matter, though I have in fact previously thanked a closer for a superb really-took-the-time close that didn't go my way. I don't agree that "most closes are pretty good", but most of the RfCs I watch are style-and-titles ones, and too many of the closers are partisan and just WP:SUPERVOTING, so my experience of the matter is very skewed. Even outside that sphere, I find many closes to be perfunctory head-counting and, while often not incorrect, it's disappointing and often almost necessarily leads to the issue being re-litigated later.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  04:49, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. Even where a result is (by some standard) "not incorrect", the more important consideration is often whether the various parties feel the process was fair. It seems to me that a lot could be said about this, and have been tempted to start a discussion, but haven't had the time to go through the archives and see if it has all been said before. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks. Frankly, I was figuring I would be satisfied to get off with just silence. Of course, the real test is whether all "sides" find the result to be something they can live with. Perhaps I should keep my head down a while longer? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Heh.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  04:49, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Canadian Politics Arbitration Case
If you do not want to receive further notifications for this case, please remove yourself from this list.

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Canadian politics. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Canadian politics/Evidence. Please add your evidence by June 7, 2019, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Canadian politics/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Citation bot
Sorry about that. I am trying to clean up pages that blocked the bot because of old bugs. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * It looks to me like some of the old bugs are still present. But what really ires me is removing Citation_bot from the deny list. If you think it is good enough to consider unblocking I would suggest dropping a note on an article's talk page asking for reconsideration. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:36, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * What changes do you dislike? AManWithNoPlan (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Especially: changes in template formatting. Others have argued that it doesn't matter, that it doesn't come within the scope of CITEVAR. I say it does matter, as clarity in format makes checking ("proof-reading") easier and accuracy more likely. And


 * Specific points I have found essential for careful checking: firstX and lastX (for any given X, and same for "editor") should be on the same line. Which comes first isn't so important, but having them split on separate lines leads to confusion of association. (And I have found citations with "last" and "first" given different "X".) Same for volume, issue, and pages} (esp. for journals). These are related parameters, and sometimes I use the combination of volume and first page as a check for the right article. Another very important point: in vertical format the closing double-braces of a citation should be all the way to the left (cols. 1 & 2), especially when buried "in-line", as it is extremely difficult to catch the end of a citation when it requires scanning each sentence, and is not distinguished from the closing braces of other templates. (For sure, I can use the 'search' function, but often I am searching for something else.) If you think "my preferences" are slight or merely idiosyncratic, please come help us at Global warming, where we are trying to pull some 300+ badly formed and often incomplete "references" out of the article text so we can ease the maintenance and verification of both text and citations.


 * I also object to removal of urls to alternate sites when the url happens to contain the doi. Note that the DOI site is not the only site that uses a doi in some urls. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:46, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I just ran it on the global warming. There is much to be gained there, but I did notice that there were are few white spaces changes, that should not be.  Investigating.  AManWithNoPlan (talk) 23:04, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I figured it out, if there is

...|first=abc| |last=xyz Then the || get's converted to one |. Which means that the line break gets eaten. Clearly GIGO, but I think that the bot can do better. This was very common on the global warming page. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 23:08, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to suggest running the bot on GW, and am thankful you didn't save, as that would have been extremely aggravating. But feel free to copy a section somewhere else and try it.
 * There is a lot of "very common" garbage on GW, which is why we are working on it. For most of that work we have to go by eye, which is why formating is so extremely important. I have seen parameters set up with the v-bar at the end of the line (thoroughly non-sat), but I don't recall any lines in form of "|first=abc|". And I have seen this splitting done numerous times where there was no such inaneness. Perhaps some regex is too simple. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * GW is an amazing test case. The white space GIGO nuts, but now fixed in the BOT.  AManWithNoPlan (talk) 03:00, 5 June 2019 (UTC)


 * As I suggested before, how about loading a sandbox somewhere with some of the "amazing" GW content (both deplorable and desired) and let's see what the bot does with it. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I have already fixed a couple things using it as a test case. It’s the Mos Eisley spaceport of citations: a wretched hive of scum and villainy.  AManWithNoPlan (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2019 (UTC)


 * "It"?? Please do not use GW for testing, or run citation_bot there at all, as we don't need the interference. Please do copy portions of it elsewhere – though at this point it might be best to grab content from an older revision – for testing. A strong advantage of testing in a sandbox is that the results (whether ill or well) won't be confused by other editing. Also, one has a free hand to add special cases, and subtly refined variants to elucidate the finer details. And all without those pesky resident editors — to say nothing of the passers-by! — tromping all over one's beautiful data. Right? &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:40, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you!!!
Thanks a lot for your guidance and reminders on ArbCom case! PavelShk (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for hanging in here. There was so little guidance (around zero?!) that I'm embarrassed you mention it, but I'm pleased if you found it satisfactory. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:21, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Threats
I take "And you're starting to annoy me enough that if someone were to suggest changes I'd be more likely to support them. Your interests would likely be better served if you just drop this discussion." as a threat to act to change an article to cause annoyance of me rather than in the interests of improving the article. I think you should review why you are editing on Wikipedia if you have that sort of attitude. Dmcq (talk) 21:49, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Leaving comments in the correct sections
Hi J. Johnson, I've been moving comments / threads you've started at the Canadian politics workshop page. As you are not listed as a party in this case, please make sure to use the 'Comments by others' section, instead of the 'Comments by parties' section to leave comments. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions, or if there is any way that I can be of any help. SQL Query me! 23:08, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Practically a party, but I won't quibble about it. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:20, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you
Thank you! &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:00, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't....
understand citation very well, but thanks for you periodic clean ups. If any of that was my doggie's doo doo when I didn't have a doggie bag I apologize. I have no more braincells to learn it better than than when you tried to teach me years ago. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Hey, don't worry about it. Citations generally, and the IPCC citations especially, are a veritable swamp where many editors have struggled, often taking inventive and even amusing approaches. Even my own work I have often found to be less than fully satisfactory, all of this showing how hard it is to be perfect. I do appreciate that you have not been making problems. And I'm working on better instruction. E.g., you might take a look at WP:BCC and see if it makes sense. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:13, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

How are links to Warming stripes "promotional", "link spamming", etc. ?
Your removal of an internal link at Climate change had the edit comment "Not particularly notable, seems more of a promotional nature" and your removal of the internal link at Global warming had the edit comment "Removing link spamming". However, even a cursory glance at Warming stripes and a basic Google search will show that dozens of reliable news references recognize the importance of a data visualization tool that makes the data behind global warming intuitively understandable to non-scientists. It is thus "particularly notable" (doesn't just "seem" so), and it's hard to imagine how describing data visualization can be "promotional". Further, your attempt (diff) at the Administrator's Notice Board to get someone else to investigate (!), was closed down after a few hours (diff) with the comment "Wrong venue. Take this to the article talk page, please" — which you have not done. There might be some room for reasoned discussion about the external links in the article, but you haven't even done that. Please describe, specifically, the basis for your opinions and actions, or I will replace the links. —RCraig09 (talk) 06:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

DS Alert - climate change
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Comments
Hi JJ.... Just sending this FYI to everyone recently in the topic area who doesn't have one in the last 12 months. And before I posted here, I sent one to myself too. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank You
Thank you for helping sort our how to correctly include the earthquake early warning information for our group. Disaster Reindeer (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe the edit you are referring to was where I mistakenly restored your edit, which I have since reverted. Please read the message I have left on your Talk page, as your edits here are in violation of Wikipedia policy, and close to getting you blocked. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Please add back the QuakeAlert section to the 2019 Ridgecrest earthquakes. QuakeAlert is an approved solution by the USGS no different than ShakeAlert LA. Feel free to contact them for confirmation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disaster Reindeer (talk • contribs) 16:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC)


 * "Please" is a definite improvement from your previous imperious "Do not remove" . But you still fail to understand that no one "must be mentioned" simply because they are a USGS partner, or that Wikipedia does not exist for the promotion of your group. In particular, I advise you that if you have any financial or other interest with a topic where you are editing you are expected to disclose it. Failure to disclose such interests can result in being blocked.


 * We have specific criteria for adding material. I don't have time for a lengthy explanation, so I am just going advise you: it would be best that you avoid any editing connected with Earthquake Warning Labs. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:22, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

personal talk
Please post that sort of thing at my personal talk page. In fact, it would be kindly of you to move it there. Article talk is for article improvement discussion. Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:01, 1 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Sure. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Re: Redundant is good
On special:diff/908165593, you may be interested in User_talk:Citation_bot. Nemo 19:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I noticed that, but have been too jammed with other stuff to give it any attention (yet). Thanks for the reminder. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:06, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Delete Talk:IPCC Fifth Assessment Report/citation?
Don't want to do it myself as there might be information there you would like to be kept. Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:00, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, let me take care of that, and the others, as some replacement text is needed. Also, the new section isn't quite all there yet. (Which I am working on.) &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * (A) Why would we delete, as opposed to archive, the talk page?
 * (B) Propose J. Johnson add his name to WP:WikiProject_Climate_change/Participants
 * (C) Propose the IPCC citation pages migrate to an WP:Advice page at the project
 * NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * A: Because it's a little tricky archiving a subpage? Or: once then newpage is finished those citations will be mainly just junk, with extremely little purpose, and likely to confuse anyone that stumbles across them? Well, I will give that some thought when I get to that point.
 * B: I'm not that keen on getting involved in that area. Too much work to do else where.
 * C: No! The IPCC citation pages are specific to IPCC reports. What we probably should have is a note on the project page advising that there are special provisions for citing IPCC, and pointing. But the IPCC citation page is still under construction, and I think not yet ready to be advertised. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:47, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I must be confused, but that's normal. Great, when the new whatever is ready we can do something sensible with the other antiquated doohickie.  In lieu of simply deleting (see "what links here") another approach is to add Template:Historic and cross reference to the current thing.
 * On the bigger issue, I'm not ready to embrace Wikipedia-wide IPCC citation standards. Options, sure.  Standards on certain pages where there's a real issue, after discussion, sure.  Site-wide, no.  But I imagine we'll have this discussion when the new thing you're working on is ready.  NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I consider the "antiquated doohickie" model to be an exploratory but failed approach, of hardly even historical interest, and the several Talk subpages not the proper location. Don't forget that even if that material is simply deleted it is still retained in the history.
 * I don't know what you mean by "embrace", but it might be noted that the requirement for citation consistency applies only at the level of each article. A useful method of IPCC citation should certainly be available "Wikipedia-wide". Now if the editors at some article really wanted to follow the IPCC's preferred citation format more closely – well, they are free to knock themselves out. But on one of our most prominent articles, where the "Wild West style" has made such a hash of citation, I think we should endeavor to do better. If the resulting model is useful "Wikipedia-wide", then so much the better. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

FYI
Just in case... you may know of part of my harv use and harv comments but not all. Just in case you think about the part you know about and wonder if I'm working against harv or trying tactics to keep using "not-harv".... just in case any of that is going on..... then FYI the rest of my harv use and comments you may not know about is both using it and telling others about the work being done on IPCC protocols. So..... just in case you get to wondering what my "strategy" is, its simply to have a full transparent consensus to make everything not just work but BE FRIGGIN FUN. What happened to fun, JJ? Your temper does not make this fun and makes me fear disagreement with you. So.... if you get to wondering what "angle" I'm shooting for, please review my last weeks' contribs before drawing any conclusions. Thanks. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:44, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I think you have "over thunked" this. I have had no suspicions of any "angle" or "strategy" on your part to oppose the use of Harv, though your highly colored section header certainly does not help. Nor do I have any complaint (stop to check... nope, don't recall any :-) about your contributions. Well, aside from this one instance, and I think that with any consideration you have to allow that the section heading was non-neutral, that you were rather quick to fault Harv as the sole cause, and that (to-date) you have not explained what constitutes "malformed". And BTW, I did check the two discussions you linked to. If there are others I should know about please say so; I don't think I should have to trawl through your contributions to find them. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Snipping flags
You asked me on my talk page why I'm snipping flags. On many ship article pages, the ship info box includes an "identification" field which often is used to provide a ship's radio and signal flag call sign, and often includes the International Code of Signals flags for those letters. For 19th-century ships, those flags are an anachronism. Your graphic of the 1857-1900 Commercial Code flags is an excellent source for the 19th-century flags used for ships in those days, so I'm snipping the flags so that they can appear as separate files like the modern ICS flags do. I'm using the images on some of the older ships I am doing histories for - see for example, USFC Fish Hawk and USFC Grampus. It's not perfect, but I hope it will get Wikipedians started on creating separate files for these older flags to go along with the modern ones. I hope I got the attribution, etc., right per the license and your wishes.Mdnavman (talk) 21:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)mdnavman


 * Why would you consider use of the modern flags anachronistic? The flags themselves (distinct from their use) are (as far as I can see) essentially the same, the ICS having incorporated the then existing flags.


 * As to the licensing/permissions, it is probably not a good idea to copy my permissions text, as that is confusing. (Are you saying that I have said it is okay to use your file??) It is probably sufficient to cite the file you used as a source, and then you grant permission to use your derivative image.


 * Some other points. It is generally preferable to put these images on WikiCommons; eventually your image will probably get moved there. Also, filename suffixes – such as ".png" – are preferably not capitalized. Whether on WP or Commons, there is a way to "move" (rename) files. Off-hand I don't recall just how, I think you have to add a template requesting the move. And you should specify suitable categories to aid others in finding your image. But then, as I have said, consider using the existing images. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:10, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Second person
Some day I may do a greatest hits of your use of the second person, and I believe the picture painted will be "needlessly petulantly childishly personalizing". It's so unnecessary and so unpleasant. Please revisit WP:ARBCC, which is enforceable at [{WP:AE]]. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:09, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Revert on Loma Prieta earthquake
Hi, why does the template link to earthquake magnitudes, rather than moment magnitude scale? I think that each Magnitude scale symbol should directly link to the corresponding scale's article, don't you? The earthquake magnitudes article doesn't show the symbols or description of each Magnitude at the top of the article, allowing for quick access for readers, so I think the specific article is more appropriate. Mistakefinder (talk) 13:29, 2 October 2019 (UTC)


 * By "earthquake magnitudes" you presumably mean the Seismic magnitude scales (SMS) article, which is what the m template links to. (E.g.: .) More precisely, each scale handled by the template links to the specific section of that article that describes that scale. Indeed, the rationale for writing SMS is to provide both an overview of the concept of "earthquake magnitude scale", and a brief description suitable for the general reader of each scale covered.


 * As to having each scale "directly link to the corresponding scale's article", no, I don't think so. A key problem with that is there are only five such articles, of quality that ranges down to wretched, and all with intimidating doses of $$Math$$, like $$M = \lg\left(\frac{A}{T}\right)_{\text{max}} + \sigma(\Delta)\,$$. These are insufficient for handling the 30 some scales used on Wikipedia, some of which are not notable enough for an article. Even in the five cases where there is a specific article I believe the description provided at SMS is more suitable for most readers. And in those five cases there is a "main article" link for those that want to go deeper.


 * I don't know what you mean by "The earthquake magnitudes article doesn't show the symbols or description of each Magnitude at the top of the article....". Of course not. Why should they? The links from {M} are not to the top of the article, but to specific sections, where the labels typically used for each scale are shown. In bold, no less.


 * One of the purposes of the m template is to relieve editors of the task of searching out specific magnitude scale articles to link to (which largely do not exist), and to provide a simple-to-use and uniform system of wikilinks for "earthquake" (seismic) magnitude scales. Explicit links are no longer needed, and not useful. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

 * Thank you! I am pleased that my efforts (still incomplete) are helpful. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Clarification of opinion
Hello,

I'm posting this here to make sure the renaming discussion of our article about the technical general definition of climate change remains on topic. Feel free to move this to a separate heading in our article about human-caused climate warming if you prefer this to be on a talk page. You indicated that you see climate change and global warming as two separate topics. Would I be correct in assuming that you make the following distinction: I've been contemplating the same. The reason I have not persued is, is that instrumental temperature record basically covers global warming. Femke Nijsse (talk) 07:10, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 * human-caused climate change (or whatever title): summary of the three IPCC working group reports together (as is now discussion under global warming)
 * global warming (or whatever title): scope similar to chapter 2 (Observations: Atmosphere and Surface) of the IPCC WGI report, with some additions from chapters 5, 7, 8 and 9?

(P.S. you also suggested that climate change migth have to redirect to effects of global warming. I think that many people are more interested in reading about the political issue of climate change, including the politics, denial machinerie and mitigation as now discussion on global warming) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Femkemilene (talk • contribs)


 * Perhaps we are making very similar distinctions, but I wouldn't express it the way you have. I'm still pondering this.
 * Re "the political issue of climate change": are you referring to the effort to deny the existence, cause, etc., of global warming? Or (and?) the political response ("climate crisis", Gerda, etc.) to the effects of climate change? &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:04, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response. When I say 'political issue', I mean everything we now discuss under global warming and global warming. I assume you meant Greta, not Gerda? . I'll await your pondering :). Femke Nijsse (talk) 21:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Oops! Of course I meant Greta. Gerda is nice, but nothing to do with CC.
 * Your link is broken, but undoubtedly you meant global warming (which includes "Political response"). All that I see as part of the broader CC topic. "Global warming" – which I see as a distinct and narrower topic – has its own political aspects, which includes the supplantation of that term with the more benign, more diffuse "climate change". Eventually I may write up something on this, but other work is also needed. ("Had we world enough, and time ....") &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)


 * In some discussions (maybe in the climate crisis article?) there has been the suggestion we make an entire article about the different semi-synonyms of modern climate change: climate change/global warming/global heating/climate crisis. If you want to work on that as well, that would be great. There is ample scientific literature about the motivations to use the various terms. I've read three scientific papers in detail about what effect the framing has. In User:Femkemilene/sandbox I summarized this incomplete reading of literature. Note that U.S. Republicans are more worried about climate change, so that for them it is not more benign. As somebody who grew up in a house below sea level, global warming also doens't invoke as strong an emotion with me than the more-encompassing climate change. Femke Nijsse (talk) 06:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * When I started climate crisis I was hoping to define framing as the key element of the article's scope. Expanding it to include other terms sounds great to me. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 07:56, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Femke:
 * U.S. Republicans are not "more worried about climate change, so that for them it is not more benign." When "global warming" started catching air in the mass media (the 1980s?) the fossil fuel industry got worried not about GW itself, but the public's response to the term, and started trying to frame the issue. This is where they started pushing for the term "climate change". It was not simply that it was less frightening to the public; it diluted the scientific message (and gave industry latitude to deny) that there was a definite trend, that it was global, and definitely warming. By dropping "anthropogenic" – as in "AGW" – they could also dance around causation.  The effect of this is seen in one of the studies you refer to in your Background, that Republicans are more likely to "believe in" CC than GW: because there are more ways of adjusting that term to certain beliefs. (E.g.: "Of course climate is changing – it does that all the time.") And when (despite industry's best efforts) people are concerned, I suspect the difference between Democrats and Republicans is not so much what they are concerned about, but the term used to describe that "what".


 * In your Background you state "I think getting politics involved is not fruitful here." Sorry, but politics is involved, and the choice of these terms is political.


 * You also suggest we should "completely disregard the framing of this single party in a single country." You overlook that this "single country" is currently one of biggest contributors of CO2, is responsible for a greater share of legacy CO2, and has announced it is pulling out of the Paris Agreement. You also are ignoring that this single country is the primary source and incubator of AGW denialism. (Unsurprisingly, as the bulk of the wealth derived from extraction of fossil fuels, or dependent on the use of such fuels, is owned by citizens of this single country.) The framing of this issue in the softer, non-urgent form of "climate change" in this single country is a large part of why we did not curb global warming when we could.


 * Getting back to the core issue of distinguishing GW and CC: I acknowledge that the terms are often conflated. However, they are not synonymous, and they can be distinguished. "Global warming" is the specific phenomenon of an increase in the heat added to the Earth's climate system, and is measurable (albeit with a great deal of trouble); it is a scientific fact. It is the change in the climate system that drives all the other changes. However, "global warming" encompasses more than the instrumental temperature record. It has a cause (primarily anthropogenic CO2 emissions, also measurable), and tangible effects (such as sea-level rise, extreme weather, habit shift, etc.), often lumped together as "climate change" (or the effects thereof). Both "global warming" and "climate change" have a political aspect (as mentioned above, different from the political responses to climate change), and deprecation of "global warming" is itself political. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * . Hi, Dave. I have been thinking we should have a chat sometime to compare notes re "GW". Until then, I wonder if you might care to comment on my previous paragraph re GW/CC. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification. The sandbox analysis is still in draft phase, I was planning to adjust that analysis not only with more reading of literature, but also a more nuanced commentary from my side and your comments are useful for that (don't fully agree, but that is for a later phase). Femke Nijsse (talk) 22:27, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * @JJ. correction... the technical narrow definition of GW does not include, for example, Ocean heat content. Rather, defined narrowly, GW is about rising mean Global surface temperature. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:18, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * If we want to decidate a page to global warming in its narrow definition, something like post-industrial temperature rise would work better? It needs something temporal or causal and the word rise. Femke Nijsse (talk) 05:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Are we talking (general concept) or (anthropogenic)? I favor the former.   Better, in my view, to restrain the urge to create yet another article when we could improve the stub Global surface temperature with the addition of sections #Global warming and #Global cooling .  This structure (putting sections under that title) will do as much to convey the narrow definition as any words we write in the text. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 07:49, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * "Warming" is more succinct, and more familiar, than "temperature rise". And "post-industrial" could mean "after the industrial phase of human civilization", but probably means "post-Industrial Revolution onset". And perhaps it should be specified we're not talking about the US or GB specifically, but about global warming.


 * At any rate, "global warming" is a key search term, and even if it is getting eclipsed by "climate change" it still has a historical significance. To bury it as a section in "Global surface temperature" – which is only one aspect of global warming – carries an odor of a whitewash, a continuation of industry's reframing.


 * "Better, in my view, to restrain the urge to create yet another article says the guy that just recently created Global surface temperature, Ecological grief, and 2019 UN Climate Action Summit. I have not suggested creating any new articles. Indeed, if the current Climate change article had some of its recent trimming restored, and augmented with about half of the current Global warming article, the remainder of GW could cover what that term originally applied to, and be distinct from "climate change" more generally. No new articles needed. But apparently that is not The Plan. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 26
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Climate change, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Mantle ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Climate_change check to confirm] | [//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Climate_change?client=notify fix with Dab solver]).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 08:20, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Hey, everyone! A passing thought, don't know if it would work, but: if "climate change" was a disambiguation page, would all those loose and not well-considered links to Climate change then get notifications like this one? That might be one way to get all those links more finely resolved. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes. With roughly 4500 links to climate change, maybe one link is added a day approximately. Having a dab would solve the problem mostly for new additions, but not effectively for all the existing links. If there is an agreement on modern climate change being the primary topic for climate change, then per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT we'd have to directly point towards that page. The logic behind that would be that editors won't have to come back to their edits all the time. In the case we do decide to go for a dab page, I think we can also figure out (dunno how), which of the two links people click more often. So if that's 90% modern climate change, we know even more certain that this is the primary topic and we should directly point towards that page. Femke Nijsse (talk) 21:23, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU JJ for bringing a new constructive idea... since I never link an article without reading it, I never knew that feature existed. Thanks for the education!
 * If they had done this in 2002 when CC was first created it would have prevented all those bad links. With 70-90% of incoming links pointing at the wrong article, the fastest way to "fix" them en masse is pointing "climate change" at the article about human climate system warming, whatever that article is called (currently global warming).
 * If we deploy the DAB now, it will cut down on WP:EGGS but not eliminate them. That's because the careless people who link things without reading them are also the folks most likely to ignore the DAB message.
 * And why would they be trying to do that in the first place? Simple.
 * The pending RM for climate change is predicated on the assertion that the PRIMARYTOPIC-(By use) for "climate change" is human climate system warming now reported as our article "global warming". QUESTION - Do you dispute that assertion?  If you have already answered that question I apologize for missing it and would be happy to just have a diff to follow.  If not, please tell us if you agree or disagree with this assertion now. Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your assertion, but this is not the place to discuss it. I also disagree with your assertion that "careless people who link things without reading them are also the folks most likely to ignore the DAB message." Your subtle insult is noted. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick 'no', I'll reference the question and answer and ask for reasoning at the RM thread. Re your perception of insult, see MOS:Internal links, Beware of linking to an article without first confirming that it is helpful in context; the fact that its title matches the concept you wish to link to does not guarantee that it deals with the desired topic at all.  NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Totally irrelevant to the question I raised, and not furthering any useful discussion. As you have nothing useful to add kindly busy yourself somewhere else. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:29, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If I missed answering a question then my apologies! I did not mean to practice WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and would be happy to try if offered another chance... what's the question I missed? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:36, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Your comments being rather non-collegial, perhaps you would consider striking them? &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll be glad too, once I understand the problem. Are we talking about my characterizing linking without know the topic or scope of an article as "careless"? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes. Quite uncalled for, and contributing nothing positive to this discussion. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:10, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for specifying the what. I'm aware that you linked a DAB intentionally in a skillful demonstration for the benefit of F and myself in this thread.  It was wonderful experiential education!  I was making a generalized characterization about hypothetical other people.  Why did you find that "insulting" or "quite uncalled for" or "uncollegial" in the discussion between us? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:37, 28 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Bullshit. But a nice demonstration of snarkiness. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:25, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Belt and suspenders
Earlier today I mangled an attempt to ping you, and I may have also botched my attempt to fix the error. So just in case, I have posted two questions for you in this part of the thread. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'll try to get to that tomorrow, as I'm out of time for today. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! 'til then. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:27, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Earthquake prediction
Good day. I understood why you reverted my edit and I apprehend your point. Just wanted to ask you to fix the citation error another way, but now I see that you already did it. Thank you for your notice and correction anyway. Ur frnd (talk) 22:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you're okay with that. :-) Do note that the citation and cite xxx templates work differently, so you should avoid changing them. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Saul Alinksy
I appreciated your objection to my extended entry for Saul Alinksy which, as I acknowledged, did need revision.

As I noted: "Earlier draft raised objection of NPOV [which I took as referring to Not Politically Objective]. In emphasising from the outset the controversy that has continued to highlight Saul Alinsky's contribution to community organizing, wording was poorly chosen and was open to misinterpretation. This has been corrected. Reference in the conclusion has also been made to Alinsky as a source of inspiration for the occupy, and climate-action, movements."

Changes were made which I thought addressed the issue, but clearly not. Could you please explain. Thanks. ManfredHugh

Okay, thanks I see you earlier comments and will address them. ManfredHugh


 * as I said at Talk:Saul Alinsky, as a new and inexperienced user there are a number matters you need to get up to speed on. First and foremost: on Talk pages – but not articles! – you should "sign" your comments with the famed "four tildes": " ~ ".


 * Note also that you don't have create you new section every time you comment in an existing section. Just scroll down to the pertinent section and hit the edit tab.


 * That you mistook "NPOV" as "Not Politically Objective" is amusing, as when you have been around here a long while you just know it means "Neutral Point Of View", and how could it be anything else??? :-) Do note that when editors are bandying about a lot of capitalized acronyms they're usually references to some Wikipediaism, such as policies, standards, or guidelines.  Most properly they should be prefixed with "WP:", and might even be wiki-linked so you can jump to the referenced content. E.g.: WP:NPOV.  Being new, you should check any of this acronyms you encounter. And as I suggested before: explore the links that have been provided on your Talk page.


 * As to particular edits: I don't have time to explain all this to you; you really should explore the basics as suggested. I will comment on one edit: do you understand how changing "honors" to "posthumous notoriety" is non-neutral? More generally, some of your deletions seem biased. I will point out that having strong views on a topic tends to make it harder to see a "proper" non-NPOV balance. In such cases it is often better to edit other topics.


 * Feel free to ask here if have questions about coming up to speed. But also note that discussion of an article's content should generally be on that article's talk page. And remember the tildes! &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I responded (hopefully correctly) on the Saul Alinsky Talk Page. Failed to sign with the four tildes. Do I do it so?:ManfredHugh (talk) 02:47, 21 November 2019 (UTC)ManfredHugh --think I got it.

Your reversion of my edit to "1976 Tangshan earthquake"
Greetings and felicitations. I noticed that you reverted my edit to the article 1976 Tangshan earthquake with the reason "I demur: the map referred to is definitely /below/." I made the change as a compromise with MOS:IM—the image appears at the top of the section in mobile browser windows (I just checked on my phone), making the direction "below" nonsensical in those cases. In light of that, may I make the change again? —DocWatson42 (talk) 03:19, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Sure. (And thanks for asking.) I checked on en.m.wikipedia.org and the map was still "below". But this isn't a real phone, so what can I say? Perhaps: that map actually belongs to the following section, so phones displaying above the reference text would suggest a problem somewhere. But I'm not inclined to fix that one, so let's just slog on as we were. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I finally got around to this (my apologies for taking so long), and made this change. And as for asking, I'm not that experienced in the Wikipedia dispute resolution process, but I know that that is the first step. —DocWatson42 (talk) 04:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)


 * No problem on the wait – I've had plenty else to do. And no problem with your recent edit, I think that will work. I have wondered if "intensity map" might be better as "isoseismal map", but reckoned that would be confusing. Or perhaps name the map directly? I don't know. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Removal of TemplateData due to JSON error
Hi there J. Johnson. I noticed you removed the TemplateData from Template:Infobox earthquake/doc due to an unspecified "Syntax error in JSON". However, it appears the issue is now resolved as I repopulated the TemplateData at the template's documentation and merged it with the previous TemplateData (as only when I added it did I notice your unsigned comment). Please let me know if there are any other Templates where you encountered this error so that I can restore the TemplateData? comrade waddie96 ★ (talk) 17:21, 28 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't recall any other cases. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Garlock fault
Hi. Here, I've reverted your removal of my recent addition to the Garlock Fault article, based on WP:PSTS. This was just a drive-by addition, though, and may not fit smoothly with the overall tone of that article; feel free to improve it as needed. I do tend towards over-reliance on primary sources and I did try to look at the Science (journal) article. However, I found that a subscription is needed to access that article online and I'm not a subscriber. Cheers. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * News sites generally make terrible secondary sources for scientific stories like this one. If a review paper comes along, then that would be great, but for now a citation to the original paper would be better. Mikenorton (talk) 12:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * At WP:SECONDARY it says (original emphasis): "A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." The reason that news sites (as Mike says) "make terrible secondary sources" is because they generally only echo tidbits (perhaps with some explanation, and the reporter's implicit use of a reliable source), but without any analysis, etc. And quite often misinterpret an event, or its significance, or leave off key caveats. So, yes, best to cite the original source.


 * Re Garlock Fault: I haven't added that source because the article really needs a substantial expansion. At the present rate I hope to get to it sometime this coming summer. I just hope it doesn't pop before then! :-] &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I've contemplated this situation a number of times over the course of my time working with journal sources and I've learned that in this domain (earthquakes and geology) it's a necessity to "violate" WP:PRIMARY. I'm pretty certain that there are other domains (on WP) that also face this dilemma, but consider that without citing these sources directly, our DYK's, good articles, and featured content would arguably be non-existent. Dawnseeker2000  01:33, 26 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, I also have contemplated on this several times. It seems to me the injunction to use secondary sources could use some refinement, as some editors take that strictly (else "violation"!), despite the language further down that primary sources may be used ("but only with care"). And there seems to be occasional confusion between secondary sources (with analysis, etc.) and second-hand sources, that simply parrot another source. I think primary scientific sources should be quite acceptable, given certain caveats (such as not controverted by other reports, etc.). Whether a report is acceptable is somewhat a matter of editor evaluation, which is a function of an editor's familiarity of a subject field. But my contemplations have yet to reach a point I could suggest any modifications of WP:PSTS. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:36, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realize...
Until I made that second edit that you had probably meant to undo Headbomb's change on Hilna Slump. Sorry about that! Dawnseeker2000 03:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC)


 * No problem! And I reckon you'd understand what I was doing. But it looks like I need to have a talk with Headbomb. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Trout
You've been around long enough to know to WP:Assume Good Faith, instead of accusing new users of being an activist. Only believing that politics should be covered more extensively doesn't have to be activist. Your comments about starting a blog are not really civil. And a (somewhat old) second reason for a trout: further escalating the disagreement between you and RCraig09 using the word 'bitching'. CC is under DS and you should know better by now. Femke Nijsse (talk) 09:10, 7 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh, stop being so po-faced William M. Connolley (talk) 11:04, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , Had to British colleagues what being po-faced is. Another example of a daily dosis of learning from Wikipedia . Femke Nijsse (talk) 22:00, 7 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't know what "po-faced" means (perhaps it's a Brit thing?), but I don't think it matters.


 * WTF? What is your sense of "activism" that you consider that a bad thing? In regard of GW I think activism is very commendable, and I encourage it. Do you have a problem with that? And I have ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE with H's good-faith. My main complaint is only that s/he is going about it at the wrong place. As to "start a blog": that is the suggestion at WP:Tendentious_editing (caption under "Got an ax to grind?"), and I reckon that is likely one of the best things an individual can do to drive more page views of specific WP articles (a concern H raised). In other words, I was trying make a constructive suggestion. So why have you failed to assume good faith on my part?


 * My other complaint with H is that, having asked a question ("what is wrong [...]"), but not liking the explanation given, s/he wants to debate it. I begin to regret having tried to be of assistance. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:37, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't consider activism a bad thing, but the way you used it did imply HH was unsuitable to edit here, hence an insult. Furthermore, you must be aware that the word activism does have a loaded meaning for many. Same with start a blog. You and me know it from that essay, but that is insider knowledge and it comes over denigrating to newbies. I do believe that many of your valuable contributions are not taken as seriously as they would if you paid more attention as to how your suggestions, that I believe you make with the best intentions, can be interpreted. Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * I am quite aware that nearly all words can have loaded meanings, and particularly aware that many people disparage activism – mind, not the word, but being active, though usually such people object to only particular kinds of active-ness. I reject that view, and I refuse to let others redefine "activism" (or various other terms) to "make it sound like a bad thing". In any event, I think I made it quite clear that I favor activism, that I do not consider it an insult. If H has such a narrowly constricted view of the term that he feels insulted then he can complain, and he and I can have a discussion. I don't believe that anything I have said has implied he is "unsuitable to edit here"; my objection is not to what he has tried to do, or even how, but where. I have been explicit about that; the problem of interpretation seems to be yours. For that, and for failing to assume my good faith, I think you ought to remove this "trout", and self-trout yourself for over-reacting. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I rest my case. Giving you a trout for using the word bitching was definitely appropriate. I'm sorry you don't see it this way or reflect upon your behavior. Femke Nijsse (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * That's a different matter, and perhaps you should decide which horse you want to ride. In regard of what we have been discussing here, you have mis-taken several points and failed to AGF, then proceeded to "trout" without further inquiry. How is that useful for anything? &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:15, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Olympic-Wallowa Lineament.png


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ANI notice
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. — MarkH21talk 04:35, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi JJ, thanks for the good wishes and the heads-up. I trust you'll agree I haven't violated any rules by setting up my new account.
 * Is this really about the extent of destruction in Tangshen? Or is there something else going on? Antipocalypse (talk) 04:43, 14 March 2020 (UTC)


 * No, not really, though that is where it is started. If I gave you my frank opinion someone would be using that as another charge against me. I think your "clean start" is blown, so you might as well respond from your previous account. But good to hear from you. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, I decided that if I was going to risk unveiling my "clean start", I might as well be completely obvious about it. And the debate about why I left Wikipedia is now rendered meaningless, since now everyone knows that I didn't really leave. Further confession: I made one edit as an IP, just to show a friend how easy it is to fix obvious errors in the world's most consulted encyclopedia. I'm very serious about only making totally non-controversial edits, and not very many of them! Antipocalypse (talk) 00:28, 16 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The problem with that approach is that somone trying to make questionable edits only has to make them controversial, and then there are fewer editors to deal with the on-slaught. And all the folks that want to add their favorite bit start to outnumber the editors taking a whole-article view, and we get junk like 'Earthquake prediction' as of 2012. That was so bad I was embarrassed to mention my Wikipedia connection to any seismologists. :-[ &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 05:16, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks ...
For the wonderfully crafted edsums that have been highlighted at ANI, and your patience there. Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 10:51, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * (... po-faced is a Brit thing, yes) Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 10:54, 19 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Why, thank you. There some things I do try to be careful about, and I pleased that someone else has noticed. But you might have to explain that 'po-faced' thing to mean. I think someone did once; does it have anything to do with memory? :-) &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Poker face has to do with the circuit of memory structures of the brain, particularly amygdala and frontal lobe.    ManosHacker talk 10:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not in this context. Think of it as the expression on someones face when they are trying hard not to fart, by clenching their arse cheeks together. Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 10:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

March 2020
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 3 months per community consensus at ANI. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:. qedk (t 心 c) 22:02, 25 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep your chin up JJ, fight the good fight. One day commonsense will prevail. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 22:48, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Category:M ? has been nominated for renaming
Category:M ?, which you created, has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 06:52, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I have been requested to comment regarding this proposed rename of Template:M. I hereby do so, albeit reluctantly.

This proposal is ill-advised. It is made and supported by editors not familiar with the topic area generally, not familiar with use of the symbol "M" in that topic area, and not familiar with the purpose and use of this template. This proposal arises from this unfamilarity, and is based on a superficial consideration of a template naming guideline, where the supposed lack of clarity complained of is not due to the name, and therefore not properly fixed by a rename.

Particular points:


 * There is no evidence of any lack of clarity by those who use this template, nor by any editor working on any article that might use this template. The complaint of lack of clarity, and of opaqueness, is entirely from editors not familiar with content area.


 * The bit about "Template function should be clear from the template name" – at WP:Template namespace, a.k.a. WP:TMPG – is a guideline, not a requirement.


 * Clarity of a template's function (or purpose or use) does not require a description of that function. That distinction is confused here because various editors do not understand the function of this template: to provide a representation of the symbol "M" and its variant forms. This representation optionally includes a link to descriptions of specific variant forms, but the essential function here is the representation of the symbol, not the optional description.


 * This template has a single-letter name because it represents a single-letter symbol (with adjuncts). To use more letters would only muddle – that is, make less clear – that this template is used to represent that symbol. The situation here is entirely analogous with that of Template:E.


 * The close correspondence of the wikitext (e.g.: "") with the displayed text ("") makes the wikitext clearer to read, whereas having to use a longer, roundabout way of getting "M" only makes Wikipedia harder to learn.


 * Experience shows that longer names discourage use of templates, which in this case would likely result in use of non-standard, inconsistent, and often incorrect hand-made improvisations of magnitude scale labels, thereby corrupting the accuracy of the information presented.


 * The proposed name, Template:Earthquake magnitude, fails to distinguish the phenomena measured from the measurement of the phenomena. While a generic "M" is sometimes used to refer to the energy or power of an earthquake, the measurement of that energy is always in terms of either an energy unit (such as ergs), or a specific scale.


 * The categorization system "this template introduces" is not (as bibliomaniac15 states) "opaque", but is (per Crouch's criterion) "recognizable to anyone who knows what it is". For all practical purposes everyone that works with (or merely reads about) earthquakes recognizes "M" as a measure of earthquake "size". (Even those people that do not understand the difference between magnitude and intensity.) For all of the specific variant forms (such as ), which are less familiar and even obscure, there is an option to wikilink directly to specific text (at Seismic magnitude scales) that describes the specific scale (or concept) referred to. But the general concept of "" is obscure or confusing only to those who are entirely unfamiliar with earthquakes, and the specific labels and categories implement correspond as closely as possible with the "system" used by seismologists..


 * Netoholic's suggestion to use Template:Moment magnitude scale "per moment magnitude scale, the name of the specific scale being used", shows an appalling lack of understanding of magnitude scales. The moment magnitude scale is one specific magnitude scale, whereas this template is used to specify and represent over thirty distinct scales and related concepts. The suggestion that a Template:MMS would be a "very natural" shortcut is grotesque, as "MMS" is not actually an abbreviation for moment magnitude scale, let alone for magnitude scales collectively.

Again: this proposal is ill-advised, as demonstrated. It should be rejected. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I see your point and will strike my original position. However, do you think that the categories involving codes not attested in sources according to your usage table (I'm talking about Category:M_?, Category:M_??, and Category:R?) could be renamed to state more explicitly what they actually mean?  bibliomaniac 1  5  21:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The categories for tracking where the various scales are used are named (to make the connection perfectly clear) after the codes used. However, as the three WP-specific maintenance categories (M_?, M_??, and M_R?) do not correspond to any particular scale, but to problems needing attention, I am not opposed to renaming those three categories, provided the names clearly indicate the attention needed.


 * Category:M_? has been renamed to Category:Articles using unknown earthquake magnitude scales. This is not correct. This category is not for cases where an unknown scale is used (a very remote possibility, which is handled differently), but where no scale is specified (and should be), or the specification is ambiguous or indeterminate. This is the code recomended in the documentation where an editor is uncertain of which scale to specify. A better name for this category would be: Articles needing specification of an EQ magnitude scale.


 * Category:M_?? is for articles where an earthquake magnitude or magnitude scale needs to be verified. Possible name: Articles needing verification of an EQ magnitude or magnitude scale.


 * Category:M_R? is for articles specifying a "Richter" magnitude or scale. This is incorrect, as "Richter scale" is a not a specific scale, but a generic concept. If the purpose of including such an attribution is not to specify the actual magnitude of an earthquake, but to establish what a source said about the magnitude, the M template should not be used. Otherwise the source is implicitly unreliable, and should be replaced with a more reliable source, such as the USGS/ANSS or ISC catalogs (for modern earthquakes), or an authoritative historical catalog. A possible name: Articles specifying an EQ magnitude or scale as "Richter".


 * In all cases the original "M_"category name should be retained as a redirect to avoid breaking existing usage. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I would remind the closer that discussions such as this are supposed to be resolved not on votes, but arguments. The original argument for this move was solely "clarify name" (subsequently referenced to WP:TMPG). I have presented nine arguments against, starting with there being no evidence of any lack of clarity (other than the self-declarations by editors with neither experience with this template nor familiarity with the subject), and that the WP:TPMG is a guideline, not a requirement. The efficacy of these arguments is shown in Netoholic's raising a new argument, that this template should not "lay exclusive claim to the symbol "M"."

That the symbol "M" (including "m") is used in various ways and thus may need disambiguation is quite beside the point, as that is a main space issue. (And more generally, templates are not disambiguated.) The issue Netoholic would raise is more properly whether "M" in template space can be claimed for a specific use. I say: why not? Are there any other uses of M/m for which a better claim could be made? No such claim has been made, whereas the handling of "M" as earthquake magnitude does require special handling. And as I have already explained, any name other than M is sub-optimal. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 05:43, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

If the crowd insists that the template be renamed (poor as that would be) I suggest that the least bad alternative is Meq. &diams; J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 04:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Well the expected result happened, but, bad though it is, at least M has been retained as a shortcut, which means that we can go on using it as before and all the existing links still work. We will I suppose just have to live with seismic moment being shown using an "earthquake magnitude" template. Now it's back to discussing the tracking categories at Categories for discussion/Log/2020 May 8. I've asked that the original M_? category that was moved be renamed to your suggestion above and I've tried to explain what the others are about and why they're useful - we'll see how that goes. I can't find anything on, nor can I find anything in the literature apart from OCR misreadings of Ms and M2. If you'd rather not discuss it further here, then please e-mail me (or not of course - your choice). Mikenorton (talk) 19:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Subdash
Template:Subdash has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Missing cite in 1976 Tangshan earthquake
You have added a short cite to "Li 2011" but no such source is listed in the bibliography. Can you please add? Thanks, Renata (talk) 06:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The only matching source that I could find is this PhD thesis, which contains the right material - "The disaster of the Tangshan earthquake on 28th July 1976 offered a discourse about the decreasing communist ideology. The earthquake killed more than two hundred thousand people in two spasms of devastation in that single day. This natural catastrophe was sudden and unimaginable. Coupled with some other natural disasters and the death of Premier Zhou that year, the devastating earthquake had a side effect; it nourished a traditional superstition for the Chinese. The populace started to engage in spreading the Theory of Mandate of Heaven. The theory emphasises that natural disasters are seen as a sign of heaven’s disapproval of a current ruler in China and also a sign of change.", but on page 45 not 240. Mikenorton (talk) 10:30, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Earthquake energy class
Template:Earthquake energy class has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:01, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Authorid
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Category:M xxx → Category:Articles using M test magnitude scale
Category:M xxx has been nominated for speedy renaming to Category:Articles using M test magnitude scale. —⁠andrybak (talk) 21:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)