User talk:J Greb/Archive Aug 2011

?
Is that a warning or a threat?--Valkyrie Red (talk) 18:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's 1) bring you up to speed on the article's history and 2) advising what your editing appears to be. Would you have preferred it also include an appropriate disruptive editing warning template? - J Greb (talk) 18:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

RE: Warning
It's people like you that have made me hate Wikipedia. Congrats. How's it feel?--Valkyrie Red (talk) 04:44, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Batman characters
I am a huge fan of the series. My information is all 100% true--76.236.0.168 (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Then note your sourcing, either:
 * The secondary source you found it in, or
 * That the actor and role were present in the credits of the show as aired.
 * You can do this in an edit summary, but do it one item at a time.
 * And that dos not cover a good chunk of the removals and changes you are making.
 * - J Greb (talk) 22:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Go to IMDB if you want more information.--76.236.0.168 (talk) 15:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC) That's my source.--76.236.0.168 (talk) 15:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Major problem then: IMDb is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. - J Greb (talk) 16:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Please stop reverting my edits! You are removing my true information and replacing it with false information.--76.236.0.168 (talk) 18:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Right now you are making changes you and refusing to show why you are making them.
 * The only source you have reluctantly refereed to is one that is considered unreliable by Wikipedia.
 * You are removing material without explanation.
 * You are editing disruptively and with the removals, coming close to vandalizing the article.
 * IF you explaing your edits, one at a time, and show you aren't pulling from IMBd, fine. Otherwise, please stop.
 * - J Greb (talk) 18:25, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually it's more original research. I've watched every single episode!--76.236.0.168 (talk) 18:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Two things:
 * Read over WP:OR. Roughly, most personal observations, conclusions, and inferences aren't going to survive. Conclusions, speculations, inferences, interpretations and the like have to be referenced to statments made in secondary sources.
 * Using the primary sources (the episodes) as a source works for very specific things. The end credis is one of those. But at this point your stance has become suspect.
 * And for pete's sake STOP edit waring while discussing it.
 * - J Greb (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually I did most of them individually. I noticed they were wrong, so I changed them to the correct information. It's you who got us into this mess by reverting my edits. Someone who's watched every single episode of the series probably knows a lot about it, and I do.--76.236.0.168 (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That doesn't explain or excuse changes you made outside of "cast". And were you reviewing the credits as you edited our just going from memory bolstered with IMDb? - J Greb (talk) 19:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

My own memory. There were factual errors on that page! I corrected them! Stop reverting my edits of good faith!--76.236.0.168 (talk) 19:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC) Now it's on third opinion.--76.236.0.168 (talk) 19:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I've removed your edits from WP:3O and WP:CNB as forum shopping since you have also raised this issue here, at User talk:Drmies and WP:ANI. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 19:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that 76...168 has started a thread at ANI. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 19:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * ANI

Not that I mind
But was the Awesome Threesome re-direct was because I mentioned it on Reddit? 8-) Lots42 (talk) 02:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No... more the sequences I'm running through on the navboxes than anything else. It was an example of the worst I've run across - 100% plot for a 1 appearance, non-notable set of characters. But then I've run into some very notable characters that are about as bad.
 * - J Greb (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

RE
This is me asking nicely. Stop following me and my actions.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Up to a point, sure. But keep in mind that that doesn't cover watched page. And given the quality of the redirects I pointed out - and there appears to be more you have created recently - don't bet on them getting a pass either. - J Greb (talk) 00:07, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Legal? (Question)
Hi J. Greb, sorry to bug you but I didnt want to start an ANI thread over an uncertainty. Would this be considered a legal threat, or does one have to say "I am going after you for harrassment"? Best, Rob R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN 19:18, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Questionable at best since "I'll go after you for harassment" can be taken as taking the issue to ANI, WQA, or as a last resort ArbComm. Though given the thread it would possibly fall flat even though editors have the right to warn off those the feel are trolling.
 * Pointing out politely that they may want to clarify they mean through on-Wikipedia channels would have been better than the NLT template.
 * On the lighter side, the new editor has 5 posts to Jimbo's talk page...
 * - J Greb (talk) 19:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And interesting ones they are! And thanks for the answer... hadn't thought about that. Will remove template and revise with a personal message. Best, Rob R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN 19:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Request for comment
This is a neutral request for comments concerning List of The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes episodes. The micro-series was recently changed from this to this. I would like your opinion on what is best presentation of this information as well if the episodes should be listed by the order they were aired or by the order they were produced. An ongoing discussion on the subject can be found here.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for intervening, I hadn't realized that I violated WP:3RR. I any case there are enough other editors involved that I will voluntarily remove myself from the article.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 05:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not that you need to step away from the article entirely, or that you had hit the technical limit in 3RR. It's that both you and ProfessorKilroy were still cycling versions of the article while the discussion was on going. It was a slow edit war for the past 2 weeks.
 * - J Greb (talk) 10:47, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

SPI
I was thinking of it. Those two accounts seem to be quiet at List of The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes episodes, so I'll monitor for a couple days and take it from there. While I'm here: I am so glad to see that you've very organically grown into the role of senior statesman for WikiProject Comics, following in User:Hiding's footsteps. Projects go awry and chaotic without the editing equivalent of a moral compass, and you're fulfilling that role admirably. Hope this isn't embarrassing! Regards, --Tenebrae (talk) 22:56, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Spencer Tracy
What sourced information did I remove?? It is all still there, under the 'Tracy & Hepburn' heading. It's just easier to put it there, so I moved it. I can't believe what a problem this is causing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.215.95 (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC) And if you are suggesting that Tracy not divorcing his wife because he was a catholic is sourced information, then that is absolutely not the case. It is pure speculation. And there more or less IS a consensus on this - the discussion on the talk page has everyone agreeing it is silly, yet no-one had removed the comment. I specifically said can people go to the talk page before deleting the changes, this is extremely annoying. Please undo your revert, there was no need for it. (82.47.215.95 (talk) 23:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC))


 * Three things:
 * How you did it triggers a "Citations removes" message. The only thing you initial edit had as an explanation. Please learn to use edit summaries at all time.
 * Read WP:BRD. Your bold edit was reverted. You have to show there is a consensus for it not demand it get reinstated. you also do not edit war to keep it.
 * Always, always, always sign your posts as you post them.
 * - J Greb (talk) 23:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, yeah I'm not a regular editor. I didn't go about it in the best way. But the way my last edit left it was fine, was it not? And I tried to get it done properly by starting a discussion on it, but no-one was responding to me there. I even kept messaging the guy who kept reverting it, and he was literally just ignoring me and deleting what I wrote. I'm sorry that I got a bit impatient but I just think this should be such a simple change... Can you please, please, please revert it back? (82.47.215.95 (talk) 00:03, 16 August 2011 (UTC))

?? Could you either revert it back or explain the problem please? 82.47.215.95 (talk) 12:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This is the same user as above - I have created a user account. I see you have been active in the last half hour - would you mind addressing my problem? I've been waiting all day. Lobo512 (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Lobo512, edits don't simply get reverted back to your preferred version. If you read up on Bold, Revert, Discuss, you'll see the next step is to discuss (on the article's talk page). And in that stage, you need to give the other participants time to respond. A few days, to even a week. Give it time, work out a consensus, explain your reasoning, make no demands, offer concessions if needed. Remember, Wikipedia is a community; it's all of us working together that creates the deepest perspectives on any topic. That means you won't "win" or "lose" every such issue - it means that generally, the encyclopedia will always be the winner because many perspectives are brought to the table. Best, R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN 23:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The reason I am 'demanding' it is that I really can't see what issue even needs to be debated. No-one has posited any opposition to me removing the comment about Tracy's catholicism. The only problem was with me deleting some references. But in my last edit, all the references were still there in a new (more logical) place. So what is the problem? The two guys who initially reverted my edit - I spent time and effort talking to them to make them understand. They then left the page as it was, suggesting there was a consensus. Then J-Greb came along from nowhere and reverted my page, clearly without properly checking my edit and reading all the comments I had made about it, and is now refusing to engage with me. Can you understand why I am annoyed? --Lobo512 (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Well J-Greb, thanks for ignoring me this whole time - great administrator, you should be proud. I'm going to go ahead and make my changes now. --Lobo512 (talk) 12:47, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * First, J Greb is a volunteer, just like the rest of us; hopefully, if you take that into account, your tone will be a little less sarcastic. Second, apparently on that talk page where no one posted opposition, they actually did - and requested you provide cites for your change, which you did not. Be careful that through your surely accidental, yet still incorrect portrayal of events that you do not appear to be editing in bad faith. I'm sure that's not your intent, thus I would suggest you re-read the discussion on the talk page to see where you erred in your determination that there was no opposition to your edits. As it appears to me, the other editors are waiting on the proof they have requested - and offered to discuss the matter further if that is forthcoming. They also seem to have pointed you to another article where this has been discussed, cited and covered. Hope that helps. I know Wikipedia can be a bit daunting - and discussions can sometimes drag on for days or weeks; so I politely suggest patience and working with the community. Best, R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN 17:47, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and finally, if you need help, advice, another opinion - or even simply a place to vent (just ensure no one can construe such as a personal attack against another editor)... my talk page is always open. Best, R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN 17:50, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

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Hi
Hi this is MegaVergan. I noticed you have been removing one of my edits film Villains under the list of Batman villains. I just want to know why and what I can do to keep it on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MegaVergan (talk • contribs) 07:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Keeping it is unlikely, but some thing you need to think on:
 * Read WP:BRD and start a discussion on the article's talk page to see if there is consensus for what you want.
 * Read "Edit warring" - which is exactly what you are doing at this point.
 * Note that List of Batman enemies in other media and it is withing the general guidelines of what is expected of such lists.
 * Reverting multiple times to a version where you broke a portion of the existing article - not the tables you want but an edit you made in addition to them - looks like vandalism.
 * Doubling the table also looks like vandalism.
 * "Plan" and "Fate" are not acceptable items for this type of list.
 * - J Greb (talk) 21:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments
I invite you to leave your thoughts here. The discussion became quite messy, so I thought it best to take it from the top, because frankly, at least some of my points need some attention. --ProfessorKilroy (talk) 08:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Help
I'm sorry to ask, but admin Ironholds, on my talk page, is threatening the extraordinary step of banning me from Wikipedia over the false charge of making legal threats! It is Kafkaesque and surreal, and he's rapidly escalating it. This may be my only chance to ask for due process, just as we gave User:Asgardian, before I'm summarily thrown off. I'm floored; I'm bowled over. It's over a long, drawn-out discussion at Talk:Morgantown, West Virginia, in which I defended myself from a bullying new user. On my talk page, Ironholds immediately became emotional and says things like I treat all newbies "like something on the bottom of your shoes". Aside from the fact I've mentored so many newbies, I don't believe language like that and his threats are a proper way for an admin to speak. Please help bring some calmness to the discussion. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Erm. (1) I never said banned, (2) what I said was "if you keep acting uncivilly this is inevitably only going to end one way", (3) read WP:CANVASS some time and (4) "Kafka-esque"...have you ever actually read Kafka, or are you just jumping on the bandwaggon? Ironholds (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (Regardless, thank you for paying so much attention to my stag night preparations. Ironholds (talk) 15:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You said, "explain why I shouldn't get an uninvolved admin to block you indefinitely". An "indefinite block" in any practical sense is a ban. And asking a single third party for help is not canvassing. Canvassing by definition involves more than one person. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, Ironholds, I'm also not sure your comment "have you ever actually read Kafka" was helpful or constructive. FYI, of course I have; aside from the implicit reference to "The Trial", I used the term as its common colloquialism. I'm also not sure it was helpful or constructive to make a sarcastic comment to me about the Kafka book article. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Since you are both here...

I've skimmed through what I can - and to be honest, Talk:Morgantown, West Virginia has had a shedload of text thrown at it over 2 weeks by essentially 2 editors over 1 issue. And if I get the gist of it it boils down to a disagreement over content.

As for the fall out...

Tenebrae, while an eloquent vocabulary is a wonderful thing, so is knowing when not to use particular word and how to use word economically. Legalize on Wikipedia is going to invite NLT review. Yes, there are a lot of cases like this one where murky context makes a common use look bad even though Wikipedia uses the term. But the "libel" family of words aren't used in any Wiki process. They lead to NLT and NLT is one of the few areas where an indef block is imposed without a previous block history.

Also, someone suggesting a wikibreak shouldn't be a new thing. I've double checked, the sole block on you has been one you requested to force yourself to step away from Wikipedia for a time. You have acknowledged an issue there, and you may want to evaluate the current situation in regard of that.

Ironholds, unless there is an NLT issue that Tenebrae is unwilling to rephrase or retract, there isn't a history here warrant implying or threatening an indef block.

Also, asking for an outside view isn't canvassing. The closest thing it comes to is forum shopping, but have to be a chain of the 3PRs looking for a different or specific result.

And this is for both... can we try to not slip burrs under each others saddles? The entire Kafkaesque thing falls under that - using the term probably wasn't needed, but "calling" on it definitely wasn't since it came off as a cheap shot.

- J Greb (talk) 22:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your calming words, and your sense of equity and balance. As I have said, and as you continue to show, you have become the senior statesman that WikiProject Comics has sorely needed, and here as well, outside that Project, you demonstrate the best of what we can be. I'm proud to be a colleague. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I know you don't need the headache, but I don't know where else to turn &mdash; I can't do a user RfC without other editors commenting at his talk page. I just would like some advice about User:3TonCatInTheRoom at Talk:Morgantown, West Virginia because he has moved on from any discussion of the disputed award &mdash; ironically, he now agrees it shouldn't be there &mdash; and now makes it his mission to state provable outright lies and call me names.


 * I tried to end it by saying "Whatever" and "Sticks and stones" &mdash; literally, those words &mdash; but he is relentless and will not stop. It's crazy. I would love to stop, but it's untenable to let outright lies go unchallenged. What can I do, short of walking away and letting him lie about me until other editors believe him?


 * Again, I am sincerely sorry for, and even embarrassed about, intruding on you this way. I tried to handle it on my own, as noted in the paragraph above. I had no idea anything like this would go on so long, or that someone could be so obsessive. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:37, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

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Edits
I accidenty made an editing mistake in almost all the other sections of the page so I tried to change them back but it just got worse so i reverted my edits so my changes went back to normal so I did'nt intend to mess the other edits....but I fix'ed it.....But where can I put my information? MegaVergan(talk) 21:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Persistant bug returns
The blocked editor from 71.162.107.92 seems to be back at 71.162.104.15 Mathewignash (talk) 13:53, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup... Looks like has IP jumped again... - J Greb (talk) 14:34, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And digging into it, it looks like they are flipping almost daily... - J Greb (talk) 15:20, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Iron Fist Template
Why did you delete the Iron Fist template? It does not contain trivial information.

JokerFan45 (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You mean the improperly categorized, hard to read collection of minor characters and non-existent articles? - J Greb (talk) 22:56, 30 August 2011 (UTC)