User talk:J Greb/Archive Nov 2007

Fair Use Rationale template usage
You seem to be confusing the source and the description when you are working with fair use rationales such as for Image:King marvel-1-.gif. What makes you think that the description of an image should be where the images originated, such as "Character sketch of King Marvel by Alex Ross. Published in the Kingdom Come hardcover collected edition." In what sense is that a description of the image rather than its source? And then when you are asked to supply a source, you list the source as unknown, despite the fact that we know exactly where the image came from. You don't actually say "unknown" but "Apparent scan made by the original uploader," is no better than unknown.

It is as if you are asking for this fair use rationale to be called invalid for lack of source, despite the fact that we obviously know the source. For a while I thought this wasn't worth mentioning, but I've recently noticed that you are undoing my correction of your strange fair use behavior, so now I would really like to know your thinking behind this use of the template. -- Lilwik 22:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You have made some good points, but I'm not sure that general usage is something we should be concerned about. Source may be frequently used to provide a link, but remember that the real purpose of a fair use rationale is for escaping from copyright restrictions, and that means that the real source is where the copyright holder has published the image. The person who scanned the image is completely trivial from a copyright perspective.

Plus, why should we use a hedge when we have a perfectly good source available? For example, why use an "Apparent scan" hedge when we can cite an issue number as a source and avoid any question of lacking a source? -- Lilwik 02:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Asgardian again
Hey, J. Despite several editors reverting his Speed Demon (Marvel Comics) changes, Asgardian is back to his old edit-warring ways. Just a head's up, and I also wanted to point you to yet another editor, here, who's also fed up with this disruptive presence. My goodness. --Tenebrae 03:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * At Hiding's suggestion, I've revived the Asgardian discussion here. I'm so tired.... --Tenebrae 18:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is the latest, as per Hiding on my talk page:


 * "[T]he rfc at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Request for comment/Asgardian is not a community wide one. If you wish to gain wider input, I suggest you instigate one using WP:RFC, although note you need another user involved in the dispute who is willing to certify".


 * I'm too exhausted to file this right now, and I wanted to ask you anyway if there something you'd be willing to concur on. Thanks, as always, for your knowledgeable input. --Tenebrae 20:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Super Mystery Comics
Thanks for uploading an updated, lower-res image, J.! --Tenebrae 02:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Asylum2.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Calibankittypryde.PNG
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamber O.JPG
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamber lovehusk.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamber mday.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamberpacalypse.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Cloud 9.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Dormmspider.png
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Carnageanimted.png
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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Venom.jpg)
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Neil Gaiman work group
My thinking on adding creators to a publisher's work group is when they have made a major contribution. So I've added Stan Lee and Steve Ditko to Marvel and Gaiman's work has not only largely been published by Vertigo but it has helped define the imprint (and probably ensure it longevity). I'd clearly not add everyone but it struck me Gaiman was an exception. I won't add it back in but I thought it worth showing my reasoning on this in case the issue crops up again. See also the discussion on the talk page. (Emperor 17:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC))


 * Or you may be coming at it from the right direction ;) I don't know, just using my best judgement on it. I would recommend raising your concern on the Project talk page - I can't say I care one way or the other but we do need to get a bit of a consensus on a general rule of thumb because you can bet your ass this will boil over into some kind of dispute (as someone somewhere will be able to cause a problem with just about anything) and it'd be handy to have something to point to as a way of resolving it ;)


 * I would say with Gaiman that while he has done work for Marvel there hasn't been a lot and the majority of his work has been with Vertigo - after all even Stan Lee has been published by DC ;) (Emperor 21:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Phantasm
Hey thanks for adding that template to my Andrea Beaumont/Phantasm images. Haven't been around much to make sure things are kept updated. 68.162.149.103 03:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamber O.JPG
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamber lovehusk.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamber mday.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chamberpacalypse.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Aliannadcu0.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:BlackWidowSpiderSlayer.jpg
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Beastastonishing.jpg
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Cassaday
Feel free to move it - the problem was going to the left at the start squeezed the starting text into an unsightly column (obviously how it looks depends on your screen resolution but you can't plan for everyone having it bumped all the way up). Of course moving it up leads to either squeezing the text (left) or stacking things (right) as the biography isn't huge.

So as long as it isn't put at the start, as it was, then put it where you like. I don't think it is too big an issue going there until it is fleshed out but if you want to mvoe it then knock yourself out ;) (Emperor 01:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC))

Suggestions needed
Sorry, trawling through my talk page archive I saw this, which I never followed up on: ''I don't know if you've been following the ups and downs with Asgardian, but he's at it again over at Whizzer. I've popped a note on the talks of Neil, last admin to deal with Asgardian, and Jc73, who handled the Whizzer RfC, and a synopsis of what just happened is here: Talk:Whizzer#Today's edit.''

I'm looking for suggestions as to who/where to take this now.


 * I appreciate the above is out of date now, but as to where to go now, I'm in discussion with Tenebrae over a community wide RFC, or taking it to arbitration. That's all I've got at the moment, sorry of that doesn't seem enough. Hiding Talk 14:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * After discovering the edit history at Awesome Android, I've initiated a request for arbitration myself at Requests for arbitration. Hiding Talk 16:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Etiquette
I think that if you have something to add, you can add it as and when, just add a section headed Statement by uninvolved User:J Greb. I'm not sure whether this case will be accepted, but if it isn't, then I'm not sure where to go from here. Hiding Talk 09:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Collected arc template
Good stuff. My concern isn't doesn't quite work how I envisioned it when we discussed this. Or is this different to that? Ah looking at it the latter might be true.

If so would it be worth doing a trade/graphic novel template (comic volumes?) as discussed? I also have a solution to your concern about the next/prev giving people leeway to create a whole series of entries. As can be seen here Pilot (CSI) the TV series template has a next/prev feature but also allows for a season list (in this case ) which allows you to have a list of the series and then only link in those that have an entry. Of course, in the end you are never going to be able to stop someone from creating an entry it might make them think twice ;)

If that seemed like a plan I could sketch it out. (Emperor 18:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC))


 * The thing is graphic novels can just about be accommodated within the book infobox (although possibly needing an optional artist to flesh things out). The trades aspect (for things like Sandman) allow a convenient way of chopping up and addressing a long series like Sandman - you could obviously try and merge them all back into the main article but I don't think it'd fly. Equally the Hellboy examples are mini-series and could could fit within the collected arc infobox but you'd need an ISBN field. I still think some kind of "comic volume" infobox provides the most flexible solution to the various examples I give. Obviously the question still remains on whether we need those entries.... (Emperor 19:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC))


 * Those certainly are options. Perhaps throw it open to discussion to get some input and examine all the angles? All it might need is just getting artist added to the book template (and seeing if they want to extend it to allow for series) and with a consensus it should be easy enough to get it done. (Emperor 01:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC))


 * Just saw your changes I think that'll do it. To all intents and purposes the mini-series, like Hellboy's, are collected story arcs so it counts (and you can make the arguements for other trades as they usually collect arcs or stop at some logical point - especially as a lot of comics series are now planned with an eye on the trade).


 * I still think we should lobby for the addition of artist to the book template and we'd have all our bases covered.


 * Thanks for the hard work. (Emperor 18:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC))

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Batman Strikes 5.jpg)
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Section headings
Thanks. We all need to reread the MOS periodically to double-check what we think we know about it (and, of course, changes). Doczilla 19:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Batmanjones.jpg
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Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae
Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad 15:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Green Arrow
Hey there, regarding, shouldn't the Green Lantern/Green Arrow covers be categorized with both characters? This issue in particular is notable in a Green Arrow context because of Speedy's drug addiction storyline. &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 03:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm running on the logic that the cover is from Green Lantern v2, DC never changed the legal title of the magazine. It and the other three fit with that grouping, but not with the GA one; yes, the character appeared in that section of the run, but it wasn't "his" book.
 * I can see treating the covers similar to the Adventure Comics in the Aquaman covers grouping... but it feels like a stretch, or an invite to cross-cat the images based on all character/character-groups appearing in them (the mind boggles at the cat listing for a current JLA roster shot... 10 cats I think... and then there's the Teen Titans covers... are those really Batman, Aquaman, GA, Flash, and WW related?). - J Greb 03:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hulk help
I've been busting my hump for a couple months on a total revamp of the messy Hulk article. User:ThuranX/Sandbox is my version. It avoids tons of the OR, synth, fannish writing and such of the current version, and I really think that the amount of real-world writing about the character, and sourcing from the creators' comments and such, could realy make this GA status. Can you please look it over? I've had reviews from Tenebrae, Doczilla, Alientraveller, and I've asked Erik as well. I figure five reviews should be enough to give it some legs to stand on, then I'll put it up. thanks. ThuranX 04:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've placed a link in the Hulk talk; tomorrow night I expect to put it up, unless there's major objection. ThuranX 03:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's up. I added you suggestions, or acted upon them, I think it's even noted in the history, so you can see it. So far, I'm just seeing some minor proofing edits being made, so I think it's good. If it sticks, I'm might submit it for a GA review. ThuranX 21:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * thanks for that revert; the editor was actually restoring huge chunks of the pre-rewrite version. As the newer version has stood for a week now, I think it's got consensus to stand, and I'm glad you reverted the old sections back out. ThuranX 05:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Ambrose Chase
Based on WP:WAF and WP:FICT, as well as WP:PLOT and WP:V I redirected Ambrose Chase back to Planetary (comics). To my mind there's no real need at this stage for an article on a bit-part character in a minor series to receive an article, especially not one with no outside sources and which simply summarises the plot of the comics. Someone has challenged that redirect, and I'd appreciate your thoughts at Talk:Ambrose Chase. Hiding Talk 15:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of images
Where can I find guidelines regarding how to categorize images? Doczilla 07:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thoughts. Since there's apparently no clear guideline, we have a lot of freedom on how we deal with that. I've simply started going through and adding Category:Comics creator image to the pictures of the writers, artists, etc. This will take a little bit, but it's definitely handy discovering which ones have images. Ooh, that makes me think: I should add something like Category: Comics creator image needed to the articles that don't have one. Doczilla 18:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, we need to distinguish those needing a person image from others needing images. Some of the creator articles have images but just don't have images of the creators themselves. Doczilla 18:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:52 Week 16 coverart.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:52 Week 16 coverart.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you. Phil Sandifer 16:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:52-Cv14 solicit.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:52-Cv14 solicit.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you. Phil Sandifer 16:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Image notifications
With the number of fair (ab)use images on comics articles, I am hard pressed to figure out an efficient way of notifying on the scale you're suggesting - especially because, as a Mac user, I don't have access to tools like AWB that would let me semi-automate the basic process of tagging them. Phil Sandifer 23:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That still just about doubles the time investment this requires. Phil Sandifer 02:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Dealt with
You may have seen the resolution play out at User talk:Speciate. You're best bet on stuff like that is to go straight to the admins noticeboard, that was pretty heavy and a complete misreading of the article at best. There was a kerfuffle when the article came out, I'm surprised people still remember it. Hiding Talk 09:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)