User talk:J Greb/Archive Oct 2008

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Infobox bits and bobs
Just a couple of infobox-related things:


 * It'd be handy if you could give your opinion on the ideas here.
 * I also ran across this beast of an infobox XIII (comics) and thought I'd show it to you before I removed it. hasn't been updated in 3 years and is only used in that article and Blue Space, so I don't think there will much fuss about removing them and getting rid of the template (or should we just ignore it?). (Emperor (talk) 19:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC))


 * Commented on the first point... and as for the second, converted to the graphic novel template. Also... you may be interested in this... - J Greb (talk) 01:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent list!! If you want a hand with any of that let me know (I can sort out those Sin City ones asap unless there is some broader plan). (Emperor (talk) 03:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC))


 * Just a quick update on the first point with a couple of examples:
 * The Haunted Tank, it has appeared as a story in an anthology and upcoming, a new mini-series. I added comic book title but it feels clunky.
 * Strange Killings, a series of limited series and most recently an ongoing. Hell I don't even know what to call it, although Gravel might be the best one considering the Strange(r) Kiss(es)/Killings have been collected in a big "Gravel" volume.


 * It struck me doing Haunted Tank that a "debut" field would be useful. (Emperor (talk) 03:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC))


 * Actually that would be part of the "date" field in the "Series" 'box. But...
 * It is possible to add fields that would generate initial appearance (characters) and series starts. Roughly these would be:
 * Characters
 * 1st_issue - The full title, volume, and issue
 * 1st_month - the month from the cover date
 * 1st_year - the year from the cover date
 * This would generate "1st_issue (1st_month, 1st_year)" and "1st_year" would generate an initial "comics characters debuts" cat.
 * "debut" would be kept as an override for multiple characters and/or aliases.
 * Additional "1st_year" fields could be added to allow for adding additional "comics character debuts" cats.
 * Series
 * start_mth - Month(s) or season in the cover date of the initial issue
 * start_yr - Year in the cover date
 * end - Full cover date of the last issue
 * This would generate "start_mth, start_yr - end" and "start_yr" would generate an initial "comic debuts" cat.
 * "start_yr" can also be set up to create the text including a link to "Year in comics".
 * "date" would be kept as an override for multiple series.
 * Additional "start_year" fields could be added to allow for adding additional "comics debuts" cats.
 * - J Greb (talk) 11:43, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent - sounds good. I'll have a ponder and see if I run across any other examples so we know the range of things that might fall under this, but it shaping up well. (Emperor (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC))


 * I presume it would be easy enough to use a "subcat" field to get it to spit out "Category: X story" where X could be 2000 AD or Eagle (as the naming didn't fit well, but it was the closest at the time). I can run a quick CfD over them to get things to match up. (Emperor (talk) 00:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC))


 * It should... since the (assuming you're referenceing a variation of it) the storyarc 'box is already set up for that. All it would take is some tinkering with the series/title 'box to add a publication(book)/series(strip) switch.
 * - J Greb (talk) 00:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

/doc

 * Template:Batman
 * Template:Batman/doc

I started it, and would like you to look it over.

Also, I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a good place for navbox exemplars? (And be a good thing to attach to all such templates?) - jc37 07:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I was wondering why you had added the "docs" page...
 * I think that it may be a case where a generac set of examples would be best... Sort of:
 * Set up a "/Navbox examples" subpage off of the CMC MoS or editorial guidelines.
 * Set up the "/documentation" suds on the Batman template and others.
 * Transclude "/Navbox examples" in to the docs pages.
 * That way all of the navboxes get the same treatment and standards are there at a glance. It is going to chatch flack though when you consider the "tolerance" range for inclusion, compare Batman, Spider-Man, and X-Men. - J Greb (talk) 23:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually mentioned the doc page quite awhile ago on the talk page : )
 * And, I was considering transcluding transclusion, too (though your plan sounds more thought out : )
 * Sounds good to me
 * Do you have time amidst your current distractions to start a stub for the /navbox examples?
 * Also, while there are several categories, is there an actual list of navboxes?
 * And should the examples be different between characters, teams/topics/comic books/other comics (JLA and GL both immediately come to mind), presentations, and creators?
 * Questions question, have we got questions : ) - jc37 03:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Running a 1st draft up the flag pole... - J Greb (talk) 00:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow.
 * The main thing that jumps out at the moment is WP:N, in relation to the navbox topic. In several places you explain how inclusion due to "notability" can be determined. I think that this should be split into a separate section, unified, and clarified. (And sourcing specifically mentioned.) - jc37 09:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Ping
Hi J Greb. You posted some thoughts on my rewrite of our mos at User talk:Hiding/X7. I responded, but you never came back to me. Do you want to just edit User:Hiding/X7 to address any concerns you have. I'm looking to get this moving forwards again. Are there any other issues which need addressing? Hiding T 12:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Point of frustration...
I've got a problem.

A new editor, User:Williamstrother, is working on the Hulk articles.

He's hitting a lot of problem points: I've hit the "limit" of 3RR on a couple of the articles and it really doesn't look like he's interested in engaging at this point.
 * Mild POV pushing with the terms "anti-hero" and "archenemy";
 * Loading the Spider-Man and Hulk navboxes with minor characters;
 * Applying the "supports" parameter in the infoboxes to "partners" or "boss/henchmen" relationships;
 * Cross media inclusions - TV secret ID pasted over the comics ones, and vice versa; and
 * At this point ignoring note to take it to the talk pages that have been left in edit summaries and on his talk page.

I've left a pair of warnings on his talk, both of which he either isn't looking at or is ignoring. I'm truly at the point of blocking him to get his attention, but the Nightscream/Asgardian situation is a-nagging.

- J Greb (talk) 00:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look.
 * (As an aside, If you wouldn't mind, please look over my comments at User talk:Nightscream. While I don't know if further comment there would be productive at this point, I'd appreciate any thoughts or comments you have, particularly in reference to my comments.) - jc37 00:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've looked over the section... and I can see where you're coming from and the points you're trying to get across. And I don't think you're being... well condiscending and dismisive seem to be how Nightscreem is taking it.
 * Beyond that, there are issues that aren't content oriented that are being brought to the table there (and to a degree with the situation I'm in).
 * Yes, blocks are supposed to be preventative. However, they are about the only stick available to 1) get an editor's attention that they are running roughshod over others (corrective) or 2) halt a disruptive situation (boarder line punitive). In any situation though, the blocker shouldn't be one of the primary particapents — it can look like "mop trumps" unless the blocked did something blatently wrong.
 * - J Greb (talk) 23:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * And on that note... I'm almost to the point of doing what I said shouldn't be done - blocking Williamstrother for his bullheaded insistance with editd to Archenemy, Rhino (comics), and others, even with multiple notes left for him on his talk page. - J Greb (talk) 00:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Ultron
I've started a discussion here, and would be interested in your input. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 23:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

In addition, I thought you should know that Asgardian has continued his deletion of material in a number of edits:


 * In this edit he removed an entire section, but in his Edit Summary, he claims that he "reworked" it. I have restored it.
 * In this edit, despite the fact there is currently an ongoing discussion on the Black Bolt Talk Page regarding the use of comic book titles in articles, Asgardian deleted a reference to the title in which an event took place. I restored it.
 * In this edit, Asgardian deleted most of a section, calling it "fancruft". I started the discussion on that Talk Page because I think there's room to argue over this, and have not reverted it for this reason. I explained why I believe it's not "fancruft", but think we need a consensus on it.
 * In this edit, Asgardian deleted two thirds of a section, claiming in his Edit Summary, "Not well written - just the facts." First of all, I explained to Asgardian some time ago that poor writing is not a valid rationale to delete material, in lieu of a rewrite. Second, by saying "just the facts", he implying that there was non-factual material in that section. As one of the editors who participated in the writing/editing of that section, I assure you, having read the books, that it is indeed facts. In addition, by deleting mention of Yellowjacket by name, Asgardian is deleting mention of the only appearance of someone under that identity in the Ultimate universe. I pointed this out to Asgardian on his Talk Page. Nightscream (talk) 00:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Alias infobox
I added that alias/set index box to Ant-Man and it seems to have worked out well. I was just looking at Black Knight (comics) which seems to also qualify. The various details have been forced into the infobox but it doesn't seem like they are needed if handled on the actual entries. I assume that image is the right one but is there anything else I should bear in mind? All it really needs is the first appearance of the first Black Knight I presume (character concept seems straightforward enough but it is worth checking considering I will be stripping out information currently there, which might not make someone happy). (Emperor (talk) 18:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC))


 * Minor thing on Ant-Man... the links under "characters" should be piped for the alter egos (fixed). And there maybe a need to either pick a kick off infobox image, or start a discussion about it. (I'd' be tempted to just stick in a Pym/Lang one since they essentially used the same costume.)
 * As for Black Knight... Off the hop I'd say yes, limit the "First appearance" to the Atlas title. There may be a good argument for also including the Tales to Astonish, especially if there's a cited statement about the linkage of the characters. That is, was Garrett created as an extension of Percy, or was that character element added later.
 * Beyond that, since the info is all repeated in the separate articles, there's no real reason to keep it. There are though 2 things that should be added to the 'box - the Vatican Knight, either as "Vatican operative" or "unnamed", and a link to the Ebony Blade as a "seealso".
 * - J Greb (talk) 20:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * OK I updated the Black Knight article with the infobox and more information on the Black Knight lineage. See what you think. (Emperor (talk) 19:11, 5 October 2008 (UTC))


 * Looks good... And I'd forgotten about the possibility for an "in-page" link. Good call to use it in this instance. - J Greb (talk) 19:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Followup...
In your opinion, has the situation with Williamstrother hit the point where a short block is warranted? - J Greb (talk) 02:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, I haven't been ignoring you, the contributions in question, or this post. - jc37 05:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

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Thanks!
I appreciate your help orphaning those templates from TFD, I really wasn't looking forward to doing all that myself! :D  delldot   &nabla;.  01:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Yobot & "fictional characters"
I am sorry for the spelling mistake. I though I was monitoring every change :( I stopped by bot. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I added the replacement of "Fictional character biography" with "Character's background" the very last moment to prevent by bot from linking it. Originally the bot links fictional character only if found in the leading paragraph. Today I couldn't find my settings file and I recreated the conditions manually. My apologies again. This is the first time I have problems with this session. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

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Infobox advice
I was wondering about the infobox for Sovereign Seven. I can see why a team one would usually be preferable but this team will never appear outside of the title and the comic title infobox would cover all the relevant information and add more. Thoughts? (Emperor (talk) 02:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC))


 * The general rule of thumb I use is that, when adding a 'box, match it to the lead and tone of the article. If a 'box is present in a large update sweep, leave it as is in order to get the sweep done.
 * With S7, I had hit it, but it was during the sweep to update the supergroup 'boxes for images. Getting that done was a higher priority than flipping individual boxes along the way.
 * Now however, if it's a targeted review of the article, I'd say flip it, the lead and tone of the article are about the comic, not the team. (Also, the lead needs a slight expanding...) - J Greb (talk) 04:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Franken-Pak.
I cleaned it up, but please review. I AGF'd, and figured two closely numbered cites from the same site would be two pages of one article, not a fanboy hyped up quote. I"m not even going to go look at who wrote it, I can guess. ThuranX (talk) 22:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * That IP is murderous on citation, and knows exactly how to game it for AGF. I just reviewed the mess of edits there... glad this AfD looks to be heading to redirect, since merge is done. Then more eyes can keep this article more solid. ThuranX (talk) 22:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I took a swipe at cleaning up Alternate versions of Hulk. There's a link to the article now, and [here's] the diff. ThuranX (talk) 23:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Genres
On those:


 * Wuxia should also be a child of historical comics.
 * Military sci-fi is a good one as the Warhammer 40k comics fall into that as do a number of others
 * Monsters in comics makes sense - I was considering a "Marvel monsters" category (as they have a lot) which would have gone under fictional monsters but this seems a good intermediate.
 * There are some I am unsure there would be enough need for like historical fantasy, historical romance and gothic sci-fi

Other thoughts (largely things I'm interested in and so I keep running across them):


 * I had been wondering about a Weird West category below which you'd have science fiction western and space western (although I'm unsure the latter really counts) but one of the largest areas of the cross-genres that make up the Weird West is horror western (no seperate article as the Weird West one pretty much covers it) and I think it'd work to have "science fiction western comics" and "horror western comics" (which accounts for the bulk of Weird West) - which could potentially go under "Weird West comics".


 * I did wonder about "samurai comics" but can't think of that many (more if the pity) and the bulk are manga and covered by Category:Chanbara anime and manga.


 * The big gap that I keep running across is something like "Magic in comics" like Hellblazer, Criminal Macabre, Books of Magic, Shadowpact, etc. and the closest thing I can think of would be something like "occult comics" (which seems a reasonable genre

Just as a side note the main "punk" article is cyberpunk derivatives (which has been a pain to name I can tell you!!).

Hope that helps. (Emperor (talk) 00:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC))


 * In a lot of the "cross" cases, I've been trying to look at "multi-flag triggers". I had come across a few "Romantic comedy" comics under the Chinese/Korean/OEM and structure the 'box to cat to "Romance comics" and "Humor comics" and even that isn't a perfect fit... "humor" and "comedy" are in the same broad area, but have a noticeable difference in connotation.
 * Also with that in mind, I'm not looking to create dozens of new comic-centric genre sub-cats, but applying clear identification in the infobox text w/ an article link.
 * Short of the World comics articles, I'm trying to avoid manga genres as much as possible... less toes to step on.
 * The Weird West and SciFi Western sent me running ... It looks like WW covers Horror-Western, SciFi-Western, and/or Steampunk, at least 2/3rds of those wouldn't hurt. But the SciFi-Western and Space Western conflict over "primary genre" sent me for a loop.
 * Magic in comics is a bitch, period. Looking at the literary baselines, Helblazer is horror, Criminal Macabre is also horror and likely also crime, Books of Magic is fantasy, and ''Shadowpact is superhero and fantasy. I'm not 100% comfortable with creating "Occult comics" since it would also cover much of horror and fantasy where most titles can be sorted into one or the other of those two.
 * - J Greb (talk) 01:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Good points on the Chinese/Korean comics - my knowledge of them largely stretches to the grittier end of the market. Have we lost Hamu hamu? They were very knowledgeable about such things.


 * Glad to hear I threw you for a loop - Steampunk Westerns are part of the Sci-fi Western (as it deals with anachronistic technology in western settings that will either come from aliens, time travellers or an alternative history take, which is where the Steampunk comes in, although there is potential for a bit of Tesla-type gubbins to be thrown in). There don't appear to be that many Space Western comics (although the Serendipity comics would also count) and the bulk seem to be horror westerns.


 * In some ways your answer is a good argument for such a category (although not perhaps as a genre), as comics that are clearly linked by their use of magic are being categorised in a wide range of categories the horror/superhero/fantasy trappings are the extra elements added to this. The problem with occult comics is that it brings the more horror-related connotations when it is broader than that (hence my use of "Magic in comics" - it may be less a genre and more along the lines of Category:Mythology in comics - which is more a theme. So it would make a logical child to Category:Magic in fiction). (Emperor (talk)

02:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC))


 * I can see "Magic in comics" being reasonable... though it is going to cover a chunk of "Fantasy comics" and "Horror comics".
 * As for the two Western subs... I'm thinking "Weird" would wind up being limited to the Horror/Western intersection. Yes, there are case for SciFi stories being lumped into it, but I'm trying to limit the material that pops up in the infobox, and having both "Weird West" and "SciFi Western" joined at the hip wouldn't be good.
 * - J Greb (talk) 00:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I see "Magic in comics" and "Mythology in comics" as being more like themes that can also contain comics of various genres (whereas "Vampires in comics" is more of a either a genre, "vampire comics" or a grouping of characters) as you say, comics with magic as their main theme can go from adventure to horror to superheroes to crime.


 * I wouldn't recommend making a "Weird West comics" category - it is cross-genre and so is a bit of a classificatory pain - I think there is potential for a "horror western comics" and a "science fiction western comics" but would hold off on the "space western comics" as there don't seem that many potentials. It might be a "Weird West" category would act at a higher level drawing together horror westerns and science fiction westerns but I it may not be needed (I'll see how things progress - it largely depends on the other sub-genres and how they develop). (Emperor (talk) 02:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC))

Orphaned non-free media (Image:GLGA76BS.jpg)
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"In other media" infoboxes
Nice work with the "Alternate versions" infoboxes (I'll keep that in mind when I run across one) and I was wondering about what we'd use for the "in other media" articles.

Now I have my eye on Superman in other media and Batman franchise media and, as mentioned previously, I was planning on refocusing them to become "Superman franchise" and "Batman franchise" where I'd use. I have also been eyeing Hellboy and X-Men as you could split off their other media sections, mix in the various comics and make franchise articles out of them but Cyclops in other media, Colossus in other media, etc. can't be turned into franchise articles (as they are mainly part of the X-Men franchise - an arguement could be made for Wolverine in other media, but that is another story for another day) but they are clearly very similar.

Thoughts? (Emperor (talk) 03:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC))


 * All things being equal?
 * A 'box that identifies the other media and lists 3-5 notable examples of each is do-able... titled "Adaptations of  in other media" and cat limited link the AV 'box. It would be separate from the set list 'box though... much less overlap
 * Maybe this weekend...
 * - J Greb (talk) 01:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK... rough draft up at User:J Greb/TempPaste... an example is on the talk page there. - J Greb (talk) 23:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Metrosmallville.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:Metrosmallville.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Section length, Book titles, et al.
Hi. Can you read this section and then offer your opinion on the points raised, specifically the issue of titles in the FCB, length and detail of given sections, and what constitutes “fannishness”? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 14:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Hulk edits
Given that the decision was "merge", why do you undo the extremely brief insert I did, along with all the 'now' sourced previous statements I might add? This is no different from mentioning Thor (Marvel Comics) throwing the Odinsword through a Celestial or lifting a large percentage of the Midgard Serpent. This was definitely extremely far from excessive. I made an effort to keep it as concise and informative as possible, but it is frustrating to exert myself, take the result reasonably despite that it was a slap in the face of all the extensive work, and yet not even meeting the willingness to budge 5% of the way. Dave (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the comics image categories
Thank you for the notice and corrections regarding the "MoS" concerning images and associated categories. I'll be certain to follow these directions in the future.--Cast (talk) 02:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Image:Batman - The Long Halloween 11 pg15.jpg
Image:Batman - The Long Halloween 11 pg15.jpg isn't showing up properly. -- Suntag  ☼  21:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Replace fe/male placeholders in infobox
Just stumbled across this and thought I should flag it here. (Emperor (talk) 16:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC))

Orphaned non-free media (Image:AbinSurSpace.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:AbinSurSpace.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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"Comics in other Media" infobox
You recently added an infobox to Superman in other media. I fail to see the point of this infobox since it basically duplicates material found in the article itself. What is the thinking behind it? Was there some discussion somewhere that such a box was necessary? Rhindle The Red (talk) 15:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The box itself is the result a bold act after comments up-page here. As for its function, it's a set of "notable examples" of what the article covers (hence the notation in the 'box docs to limit the in-'box lists to 3 or 5 examples). In a lot of cases, most actually, the "... in other media" articles should be more than just a bullet point list, there should be some form of prose covering how, where, and why the character was adapted to novels, radio, television, film, etc. With that in mind, the Superman IOM "article" does fall well short and could use fleshing out. The 'box still functions as an example of content though, even if it is "And the short version is..." - J Greb (talk) 23:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This infobox span out of a discussion I had with J Greb. The infobox is a stripped down form of the media franchise infobox that you can see in use on CSI franchise and other articles. As I've stated here and on the Comics Project talk page it is my aim to start the ball rolling with an eye to turning the Superman in other media article (and some others) into "Superman franchise" and the infobox is a good half-way house (with a comics-related focus).


 * Also infoboxes do contain a stripped down version of the details in the article - you'll see that on films, comics, etc. too. The article is where the information is fleshed out and put in context. (Emperor (talk) 00:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC))


 * I don't think it is a good idea to try and change the focus of that article. It is intended as an overview of Superman as he appears elsewhere, but not always as part of the "Superman Franchise" as such.  Any attempt to do so should be discussed thouroughly on that page.


 * I am aware of the use of infoboxes, but don't see the point of one on a page such as that. An infobox helps break out significant data on articles that are mostly prose.  The nature of Superman in other media is mostly that of a carefully organized group of lists.  That makes the navigation box and the infobox seem repetitive.  I don't think the article needs it.  I will bring it up for discussion on the article's talk page. Rhindle The Red (talk) 03:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Image question
Would you check out the discussion there? Your image expertise would be welcome. - jc37 21:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk:Fat Blue


 * Added a GDFL question as well : ) - jc37 03:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hulk merger
As far as I've understood the decision the content of Powers and Abilities of the Hulk was to be merged into the main article, or to quote "The debate was closed on 18 October 2008 with a consensus to merge the content into the article Hulk (comics)." The most reasonable and the least intrusive way of doing so that I can come up with is to add the most noteable examples of an ability as sources to previously existing statements, and adding a few forgotten abilities without affecting the flow of the text in section itself in a major way. Thus I'd very much appreciate if we could handle this reasonably and collaboratively without any acid. This is extremely far from excessive, and not remotely a whole insertion of the article, even if that was the actual decision. I made an effort to keep it as concise and informative as possible, but it is extremely tiresome to exert myself, take the result reasonably despite that it was a slap in the face of all the extensive work, and yet not meeting any willingness to budge whatsoever, regardless that this was actually required by the decision.

Something along this vein is the best I can manage at the moment, but help with improvements are greatly appreciated:

Thank you for any assistance. Dave (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Dave,
 * First off, this is the wrong place to post a proposed change to the P&A section of the Hulk article. That is a discussion that should be centralized to the article's talk page.
 * Second point, the result of a merge, any merge, is that pertinent information gets extracted from the article-to-become-a-redirect and added to the parent, if it isn't already covered. Damn near everything in the P&A article was covered in the P&A section in a succienct manner. The material you pushed into the P&A section, as well as the majority of the example here, is exactly the type of material that was causing the problem with the P&A article - an over done list of "greatest hits/feats".
 * And that leads into a final point, the articles here are not, and should be written in a fansite mindset. They shouldn't have sections that tick off each way a character has used a power, nor each time a plot element is presented to make the character look neat or cool. Material like that either belongs in a Marvel or Hulk specific encyclopedia (the Marvel DB springs to mind) or on a fan's website. For the P&A section though, keep to the minimal information: Lee commenting on the powerset he originally envisioned the character with; a rough indication of how writers have varied that (that is 1 high and 1 low point for strength, the same doe durability); critical commentary on how the Hulk's powers have been presented; possibly comments from other writers on how they've refined or revised the Hulk's powers; and possibly a point or two about the Hulk's minor "odd" powers (ie the homing instinct and the adaptability not related to durability).
 * - J Greb (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I was just trying to be polite and mediating by going directly to you and Thuran, since you were the ones deleting any added references, rather than make a big mess out of it. Most people, including myself, prefer to talk things out in private rather than get forced into a major debacle. In any case, the alternatives would be to either make a list of unsourced statements, or to source them, and the decision was "merge", not "delete". This was the best middle-road I could come up with. Listing all the shown abilities is no different from the overall high-quality Galactus article. In fact it's the common praxis. If I was truly onesided and rampant about this stuff I would have tried to delete the mentions of Captain America and a snake defeating the Hulk, or being less powerful than Galactus, not simply non-intrusively including the other end of the scale. Dave (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * To a degree, I appreciate to find a middle ground/way, and if it were just you and I, or you and ThuranX, I'd agree trying to hash it out on user talk pages would be an option.
 * But, this isn't limited to two editors and it isn't a sheltered topic. And even if it were a topic that only you, I, and ThuranX were dealing with, cross posting to two talk pages does not breed a coherent discussion. As for sheltered, look at the additional comments made below by Cameron, Jc, and Chris. That speaks more to this being something to hash out on the article's (Hulk) talk page or a dedicated sandbox.
 * And on that point, this isn't the place to archive or experiment with article text. A sandbox off of your user space is more appropriate.
 * Again, I'm going to copy the added material from here to the talk at Hulk and amend down to this post. Any further discussion about the P&A section should be don there.
 * Thank you,
 * - J Greb (talk) 20:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

And coppied in toto to Talk:Hulk (comics) - J Greb (talk) 21:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Darwin XMDG.JPG)
Thanks for uploading Image:Darwin XMDG.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. Do you really believe that the sideways image is an appropriate-looking image as the main image of an article? Nightscream (talk) 06:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, but that is how that particular piece was published.
 * A preferable way to change the image would be to find a good piece that depicts Darwin in accordance with WikiProject Comics/editorial guidelines without rotating the image or editing out the background. And then specifying in the edit summary include that the change is to avoid a contorted pose and to remove an apparent power (flight) that the character doesn't have.
 * - J Greb (talk) 10:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hulk P&A AfD fallout
Jc,

Could you take a look at User:David A/Powers and Abilities of the Hulk in light of the AfD.

I'm a little close, but this feels a lot like David A trying to archive the article/list in userspace. Something that I believe isn't supposed to be done.

- J Greb (talk) 19:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but AFAICT, it's within the guidelines. I think we mainly just need to make sure that there are no "fair use", or other problems. If this was a BLP of some kind, or in any way referenced a BLP in some way (assigning of an opinion on an issue, or something), I think that we would have more cause for concern.
 * That said, I'm not opposed to asking others what they think as well. - jc37 04:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * My intents are misunderstood and very unexpectedly made a issue of, so what else is new? To explain, I was told long ago to use the userspace as a sandbox for my own stuff, which I did, and was not aware of any regulation problems with doing so. The topic of discussion was the merger of the P&A page, which made it necessary to let any other participants take part of the material that we are supposed to work from. Additionally I wanted to showcase that I've really made an effort to shorten down the 108 original sources into the essentials and a format that works within the preexisting framework, but it's still just a template. I definitely think some reference should be kept for each sentence/mention, but feel free to pick the most suitable and wean away the rest. I checked for the history thread of the original page to link to the original version, but it was wiped clean, so what was I supposed to do? I specifically removed and category buttons at the end of the page specifically to not make it noticeable for anyone outside of the thread. I was not trying to reinstate it. You've said that I need more faith in other editors, but in combination with everything else I'm trying to follow the decision and find a middle-road that doesn't hurt Thuran's efforts. In order for the decision not to turn into "delete" per default it's necessary for all people who participate in the thread/help with the merger to select from the original. It's really not any more complicated than that, but if there's a problem I'll remove it. (Although I don't think I managed to get rid of the old ones back then, so some pointers would be nice) Dave (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a nutshell Dave... Yes, there is a wide degree of latitude with regard to sandboxes, but there are still things that shouldn't go into them. There have been instance of editors keeping archived versions of articles as a "preferred reference model". That was my concern here, especially since you were pointing to it as a base for you points on the Hulk talk page. Bluntly, that version still exists in the edit history of the P&A and the refs could be made using that. - J Greb (talk) 23:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * But that's just it. I checked right before and noticed that the older archived versions had now disappeared (either that or there's something wrong with my display, but I don't see why that would be, as it used to show up fine a week earlier), so I thought that it was a good idea to give anyone helping out access to it, and I'm recurrently accused of trying to merge all of it, which I don't, not remotely. Dave (talk) 10:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Try this, and if you look at the link you provided, the initial edit was to move the page for proper capitalization. - J Greb (talk) 11:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok, that was the version that showed up through my watchlist. How odd. I'll wipe the page clean at least. Dave (talk) 11:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

While I'm at it...
Mind taking a look at Poison Ivy (comics)'s infobox?

I'm running into an issue there and right now I've got what looks like a SPA IP flipping the image.

- J Greb (talk) 03:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * While I understand your concern (and am empathetic to being frustrated), your last edit summary came a touch close to biting an IP. (As I was just recently - wrongly imo - subjected to a "lecture" myself, I think I'll pass on the typical notices etc. Due my past experiences with you, I think you already know, and besides, I think it's possible that the comment was likely not intended the way it may be interpreted.)
 * Anyway, I've protected the page per The Wrong Version (I mean WP:PROTECT...) in the hopes of fostering discussion. - jc37 04:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)