User talk:JackSparrow Ninja/Source reliability

Land of the Legend -linked by
As there has been a bit of a discussion going on about lotl, I did some research and after spending just 10 minutes, found a great number of big websites linking to this source.


 * Kotaku 1
 * Kotaku 2
 * Kotaku 3
 * Kotaku 4
 * Jeux-France 1
 * Jeux-France 2 lotl already
 * IGN board, moderator stating lotl as reliable source in a reliability thread
 * Advanced Media Network
 * lotl footage linked from GameFront (germany's IGN)
 * NGC France (sister site of Jeux-France
 * insidegamer.nl, the biggest gaming site of the Netherlands
 * fok.nl, one of the biggest entertainment websites of the Netherlands
 * Eurogamer


 * The problem there is that the only sources I've ever heard of are insidegamer and IGN. Plus, IGN's is a message board, even though it is an employee. The only sites I consider reliable sources as far as Zelda goes are sites that belong to Nintendo, or sites that have interviewed Nintendo officials. If Land of the Legend has interviewed Nintendo officials, than I will consider it a reliable source, as long as its claims are backed by legitimate research or statements. -- Mellesime 22:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ive read something about HLOTL having contact with someone they refer to as Henk. Could it be they have a insider passing them info? Maybe they'd have talks with Nintendo bigshots at E3, Leipzig or wherever? I have searched the internet using google and archive.org and have seen that landofthelegend (a.k.a hyrule.net for some periode) did have exclusive footage or information. Comparing the older info to the newer info, i must say that landofthelegend.net has in my opinion proven itself worthy of beeing credible as they have proven themselfs to be correct many times in the past. Bolle is Geweldig! 17:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey
I don't know if this is where you, Jack, wanted me to answer you or not... but I figured I'd go ahead and give my two cents. Being that this is your personal page, that's all I'm going to do, as I don't want to overstep my bounds. First thing -- I work at EB Games in my town, and I would like you to know that, though retailers often overemphasize certain aspects of up-and-coming releases to get preorders, we do not "randomly generate" release dates. The release dates we give are all in a system that Gamestop gives us, which is based on the manufacturer's or producer's date given directly to Gamestop (Barnes & Noble owns Gamestop, which kind of owns EB Games, in case you didn't know). The actual numbers we give customers, such as release dates and projected inventory, is what dorporate tells us. For instance, corporate was telling us that we'd be getting 16 PS3s until a week or so before launch when they told us we'd only be getting 8. Now, we had take 16 reserves -- not because we wanted 16 reserves, but because that's how many we were ALLOWED to take. We weren't ALLOWED to take anymore. As for the release dates, like I said, we are reading them off a screen. I do agree, however, that retailers are not reliable sources, because we have no sources for which to base any speculation on. Everything we know is generally already known and has a more reliable source. Plus, you can't really cite an interview with a retailer on an online encyclopedia. Second -- I don't really want to be a part of the whole anti-TSA thing, as I think it's a little childish. BUT, I will say that reputation has a lot to do with how credible the source is considered. Therefor, I would say that ANYONE whose reputation of honesty is in question should not be used as a source unless, like the TP article, it is linking to something within the questionable source's website that IS reliable, such as a magazine scan.

Of course, I will never really condone using fan sites as sources, no matter how prestigious. The only sources I condone as far as Zelda goes (just as an example) are Nintendo and official Nintendo publications (strategy guides, magazines, et cetera). Also, I must say that, in situations like Twilight Princess, there is way too much opinion. Like the stuff linking it to Ocarina of Time. I feel like, unless Nintendo says explicitly that the Lakebed Temple is the Water Temple, then any speculation should be considered... well... speculation. If speculation MUST be in an article, make a SPECULATION section. I think that's all I have to say. -- Mellesime 22:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Opening statement by TSA
I will continue to remove Land of the Legend and The Hylia once everytime I am allowed until you come here and discuss this situation, along with the rest of the sites you list as "should be looked upon". If you refuse to discuss, I will notify Jedi6 again because the Wiki Admins said you need to open a discussion on this user page article because I want to nominate it for regular deletion. Your marks on The Hylia are wrong. We posted our April Fools joke the moment it STARTED in the world - as in, the first time zone that hit April Fools. In North America and Europe, it showed up BEFORE April Fools. However, given the nature of the timing, I argue the article was posted within the statute of limitations for April Fools pranks. We also came clean and ADMITTED it was a prank, trying to pass it off as REAL and denying it would prove us to be UNRELIABLE as we would have been lying. By this same merit of making up a hoax, I do not see why you do not list Land of the Legend's "screenshot". They made up this image in photoshop and posted it in NOVEMBER of 2005 and passed it off as a real photo until they got caught by a fan who pointed out how it was fake, or else they would not have admitted it was a fake.

On the other account, I do not see why Nintendo of America screwing over The Hylia makes it unreliable? We only posted what was TOLD to us, nothing we posted in terms of information from Nintendo was incorrect, ever. The Hylia then posted what happened and explained the situation, rather than copping out and ignoring it. That is also not the sign of an unreliable site.

Thirdly, I have no idea what you speak of with the rumors during the development. Link would die? You don't mean this article, Twilight Requiem, which was an EDITORIAL, not a REPORT.

Since E3 2006, The Hylia has shifted focus and structure. I really find it hard to believe anyone feels the site is unreliable since that time we shifted from a Zelda Fan Site to a Nintendo News Site. As a fan site, The Hylia was NOT a very reliable source because of the nature of fan sites. However, we're not a fan site anymore, and as such our methods and practices are more professional. Nowhere do you acknowledge any of this.

As for Land of the Legend, let's go over the points you bring up. You say they debunked a flying method in Twilight Princess. You do realize in Lake Hylia you can fly up Zora's River, and then back down it? I'd like to know how the astute folks at Land of the Legend missed that?

As for the Wii and GCN differences, they were pointed out well before Land of the Legend reported that. In fact, they reported on something EVERYONE heard during that Q&A session. That is NOT exclusive, you just got your info up before the other sources. Something like The Hylia reporting on Phantom Hourglass' delay, which we were the only source to discover this through our interview, is exclusive news.

As for magazine info - No, The Hylia is NOT the only site to get the said information. However, Land of the Legend is in Europe, and Nintendo Power and EGM do not ship there. If they did, the import time would mean you get it well after us. My grievance is that while Nintendo Power is the source of the info, The Hylia took the time to READ the info, CALL UP Nintendo to verify, and then reported on it ACCURATELY, and then Land of the Legend takes the info and DOES NOT CITE us. Sure, if anotehr site reads the info and reports it, we don't care if they do not cite us. However, when we are the ONLY site with the info, and then within an hour it is up on Land of the Legend, it's just very unprosseional.

Also, with the sales reporting, Martin proved how unreliable he is when he admitted in his "Video Game Sales for Dummies" book that he "guessed" that even without official sales, Twilight Princess ssales surpassed a mark. That is not what professional sites do on analytical data reports. Not to mention Martin hijacked my acccount and posted inappropriate remarks with it. That's just childisn and pathetic.

Honestly, leaving up this page doesn't do much. Nobody in the Zelda community believes Land of the Legend is reputable anymore and most wish it would just go away. I've spoken with just about all the Zelda webmasters I could about this, and I showed them what Martin did with this childish antics in that sales post, and it pretty much sealed the deal. I also showed it to blog editors at Wiired, Destructoid, GoNintendo, Joystiq, Kotaku and news editors like Peer Schneider at IGN and Luke Smith at 1UP. I speak with these people, they know me and know my site is reliable and not BS. I'm trying to save you and Land of the Legend grief now because it has become an embarassment. I'm not even bringing up what happened during the Hyrule.net/Land of the Legend split anymore, that's old news. I'm just saying the site has conducted itself in a very unprofessional manner and all of my actions on Wiki and my site are a response to their childish and professional manner. Until they cease, I will do everything within my power to ensure Land of the Legend is discredited and any BS they post about my site is refuted.--TSA 21:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Response by JackSparrow Ninja 1

 * Your incivil wordings, and abuse and twists of admins words, aside, I am glad you finally have the guts to talk.


 * Your marks on The Hylia are wrong. We posted our April Fools joke the moment it STARTED in the world - as in, the first time zone that hit April Fools.  In North America and Europe, it showed up BEFORE April Fools.  However, given the nature of the timing, I argue the article was posted within the statute of limitations for April Fools pranks.  We also came clean and ADMITTED it was a prank, trying to pass it off as REAL and denying it would prove us to be UNRELIABLE as we would have been lying.
 * This makes me think a bit of Sony PR saying they launched better with PS3 then any othe (previous) console, because the Wii launched two days later. As a serious media outlet, you have responsibility, and this isn't the first fake interview coming from you.


 * By this same merit of making up a hoax, I do not see why you do not list Land of the Legend's "screenshot" . They made up this image in photoshop and posted it in NOVEMBER of 2005 and passed it off as a real photo
 * We are talking about reliable sources for information. There was no information whatsoever in that screenshot.


 * until they got caught by a fan who pointed out how it was fake, or else they would not have admitted it was a fake.
 * If you can verify it, please do, but it is at this point nothing more then a completely unverifiable (biased) assumption.


 * On the other account, I do not see why Nintendo of America screwing over The Hylia makes it unreliable? We only posted what was TOLD to us, nothing we posted in terms of information from Nintendo was incorrect, ever.  The Hylia then posted what happened and explained the situation, rather than copping out and ignoring it. That is also not the sign of an unreliable site.
 * "It's from TSA's interview with Aonuma. "Aonuma admits that his remarks in an interview before The Wind Waker's release in Japan were meant to convey "two timelines".""
 * Mind explaining how a quote from an interview that never existed comes up like that?


 * Thirdly, I have no idea what you speak of with the rumors during the development. Link would die? You don't mean this article, Twilight Requiem, which was an EDITORIAL, not a REPORT.
 * There's a number of things, though I do not recall them completely. But I'm sure, among other things, you remember being at E3 2004, and then E3 2006 being your first E3 or overhearing news on toilets.


 * Since E3 2006, The Hylia has shifted focus and structure. I really find it hard to believe anyone feels the site is unreliable since that time we shifted from a Zelda Fan Site to a Nintendo News Site.  As a fan site, The Hylia was NOT a very reliable source because of the nature of fan sites.  However, we're not a fan site anymore, and as such our methods and practices are more professional. Nowhere do you acknowledge any of this.
 * That is, for one, assuming one couldn't be a Nintendo fansite.
 * I'm not going to argue over something trivial as set-up and structure -though it is my personal believe it is better to be 100% good in one thing, then 70% good in a number of things- and that is not what this is about. IGN, Spong and Nintendo Official Magazine are professional. Does that make them reliable? I think you know the answer to that.


 * As for Land of the Legend, let's go over the points you bring up. You say they debunked a flying method in Twilight Princess.  You do realize in Lake Hylia you can fly up Zora's River, and then back down it?  I'd like to know how the astute folks at Land of the Legend missed that?
 * Do you mind if I ask you to read correctly? I quote them when I wrote "alike the ground transportation of the horse Epona". From their report at E3 2005, they've said that it doesn't exclude a mini-game, and somewhere this year they confirmed there to be a flying mini-game.


 * As for the Wii and GCN differences, they were pointed out well before Land of the Legend reported that. In fact, they reported on something EVERYONE heard during that Q&A session.  That is NOT exclusive, you just got your info up before the other sources.  Something like The Hylia reporting on Phantom Hourglass' delay, which we were the only source to discover this through our interview, is exclusive news.
 * No, they were the first ones to report on that -unless other big sources block information for certain users. The whole discussion on Wikipedia linked to, shows that more then anything.


 * As for magazine info - No, The Hylia is NOT the only site to get the said information. However, Land of the Legend is in Europe, and Nintendo Power and EGM do not ship there.  If they did, the import time would mean you get it well after us.  My grievance is that while Nintendo Power is the source of the info, The Hylia took the time to READ the info, CALL UP Nintendo to verify, and then reported on it ACCURATELY, and then Land of the Legend takes the info and DOES NOT CITE us.  Sure, if anotehr site reads the info and reports it, we don't care if they do not cite us.  However, when we are the ONLY site with the info, and then within an hour it is up on Land of the Legend, it's just very unprosseional.
 * You have stated yourself they have American crewmembers.
 * From that point on, you start stating that you know they haven't got a subscription.
 * Mind elaborating on how you know none of their American crewmembers have a subscription?


 * Also, with the sales reporting, Martin proved how unreliable he is when he admitted in his "Video Game Sales for Dummies" book that he "guessed" that even without official sales, Twilight Princess ssales surpassed a mark. That is not what professional sites do on analytical data reports.
 * They state they have the sales data, not guessed it, and when their report using those sales data turn out correct, who are you to say they haven't got it. If you could somehow prove it, they'd make pretty good analysts. Might even have a job for them.
 * If anything, with that whole deal, you've proven yourself unreliable. Because they debunk your claim -I think it's safe to assume they're talking about you- with your own reported numbers. There's YOUR report on 2,02 million Wii on jan. 1 and there's YOUR report stating that on jan. 1 there had been over 500.000 GC sales in the USA alone.
 * Yet, you state that "at the time of Land of the Legend's report, Twilight Princess had only sold 2.3 million copies". You're contradicting yourself there.
 * Aside whether or not lotl's claim of having the sales data is correct, their public calculation is clear enough.


 * Not to mention Martin hijacked my acccount and posted inappropriate remarks with it. That's just childisn and pathetic.
 * This goes into the category unverified OR, having on top of that, nothing to do with reliability of news reports.


 * Honestly, leaving up this page doesn't do much. Nobody in the Zelda community believes Land of the Legend is reputable anymore and most wish it would just go away.  I've spoken with just about all the Zelda webmasters I could about this, and I showed them what Martin did with this childish antics in that sales post, and it pretty much sealed the deal.  I also showed it to blog editors at Wiired, Destructoid, GoNintendo, Joystiq, Kotaku and news editors like Peer Schneider at IGN and Luke Smith at 1UP.  I speak with these people, they know me and know my site is reliable and not BS.  I'm trying to save you and Land of the Legend grief now because it has become an embarassment.  I'm not even bringing up what happened during the Hyrule.net/Land of the Legend split anymore, that's old news.
 * Again something that goes into the category unverified OR having nothing to do with reliability of news reports.


 * I'm just saying the site has conducted itself in a very unprofessional manner and all of my actions on Wiki and my site are a response to their childish and professional manner. Until they cease, I will do everything within my power to ensure Land of the Legend is discredited and any BS they post about my site is refuted.
 * It could easily be argued that such behavour is very unprofessional, but that aside, what matters here is that Wikipedia is not the place for personal vendetta's and it not the place to have other editors have to deal with a conflict of interest.


 * thanks for your time JackSparrow Ninja 02:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Response by TSA 1
Your incivil wordings, and abuse and twists of admins words, aside, I am glad you finally have the guts to talk.


 * I've called you out in every imagineable place possible; my site, Land of the Legend, my talk page, Zelda article pages. You seem to want to ignore every attempt for me to reason with this nonsense, so now I am coming here where you can't hide anymore.

'This makes me think a bit of Sony PR saying they launched better with PS3 then any othe (previous) console, because the Wii launched two days later. As a serious media outlet, you have responsibility, and this isn't the first fake interview coming from you.'


 * That is the most flawed logic ever. FACT: The joke was started on April Fools (when the first part of the world entered into April 1st).  Just because every other time zone wasn't in April 1, 2006 doesn't mean it wasn't started with the good faith of being on April 1.  April 1st = Immunity.  Only certain mediums have a responsibility to not play jokes.  Poston CNN a building was bombed and 1000s of people died would be horribly ill-mannered and would be a huge detriment to their reputation and reliability.  Posting an interview about a Zelda game is hardly of the same calibur.

'''We are talking about reliable sources for information. There was no information whatsoever in that screenshot.'''


 * Laugh. My. Ass. Off. Did you even read their damn update before they removed it?  It said THEY OBTAINED A BRAND NEW, EXCLUSIVE IMAGE FROM NINTENDO OF TWILIGHT PRINCESS.  The only remaining evidence is the SCREENSHOT.  The screenshot was part of a more INTRICATE hoax where they asked readers to submit THEIR THOUGHTS on what was going on in the new screenshot.  Rather than say "oh, we made it up", they said they posted the screenshot as a TEST.  Who's more like Sony's PR now?  Us, who admitted flat out what we did with no BS, or Land of the Legend, who beat around the bush.  I'm sorry, you fail here.

If you can verify it, please do, but it is at this point nothing more then a completely unverifiable (biased) assumption.


 * Verify what? The photo was fake?  You have to be joking...Land of the Legend admitted it was not real eventually.

'"It's from TSA's interview with Aonuma. "Aonuma admits that his remarks in an interview before The Wind Waker's release in Japan were meant to convey "two timelines"."" Mind explaining how a quote from an interview that never existed comes up like that?'


 * Because that is what I was told. I am allowed to quote, or paraphrase, what was told to me.  What I am not saying must go in quotes.  It was not information given to me in an interview, though.  The above statement was a paraphrase of NOA Localization Bill Trinen's remarks to me when trying to get some pre-screened questioning done.  That tibdit was answered before the supposed interview was to happen, so I gave that info out.

'There's a number of things, though I do not recall them completely. But I'm sure, among other things, you remember being at E3 2004, and then E3 2006 being your first E3 or overhearing news on toilets.'


 * I never said I was at E3 2004, nor did I attend. However, if I recall correctly, I told people 48 hours before Nintendo's Media Briefing to expect "a shock" in terms of TWW 2's new look.  That's because I spoke with a member of NOA's online team developing the teaser site for the new Zelda who saw the screenshots and I saw them early.  I EVEN POSTED THEM EARLY, BEFORE THE MEDIA BRIEFING, not knowing I wasn't supposed to.  This lead to a huge leak of the images, and yeah, I was the one responsible for that fiasco.  And if you're going to fricking quote a rumor, get it right.  I told the GameFAQs community I saw Ganondorf at E3 2006 while I was in the VIP area and trying to find the damn restroom.  I said I saw him through one of the windows into a meeting room.  The truth was I saw Ganondorf on that Wednesday, in the morning, before the show opened to anyone, when a member of NOA showed me about 10 seconds of footage which was from the cutscene after you reach the Mirror of Twilight.  However, since I didn't want to royally screw up and be a source for another leak, I played it off as a joke to GameFAQs and "lied" that I "lied" about seeing it.  Only a handful of my close online and offline friends knew the truth because I trusted them with the info and I described IN DETAIL what happened in what I saw, and all of them told me the day they reached that part I should have stuck it to the morons at GameFAQs, but pride is not above priviledge.

'That is, for one, assuming one couldn't be a Nintendo fansite. I'm not going to argue over something trivial as set-up and structure -though it is my personal believe it is better to be 100% good in one thing, then 70% good in a number of things- and that is not what this is about. IGN, Spong and Nintendo Official Magazine are professional. Does that make them reliable? I think you know the answer to that.'


 * A Nintendo fan site would be a site with the history of Nintendo, information about their games...basically encyclopedic information, a few carbon-copied news updates every now and then, and a bunch of content not originally created by the site. IGN is very reliable.  Spong, I've not kept a track record on.  ONM I believe never delivers on their promise, but actual information they do reveal I've yet to be seen revealed as incorrect (the Tingle RPG stuff does have me suspect since I couldn't verify anything they said with Cake Media or NOE).

'Do you mind if I ask you to read correctly? I quote them when I wrote "alike the ground transportation of the horse Epona". From their report at E3 2005, they've said that it doesn't exclude a mini-game, and somewhere this year they confirmed there to be a flying mini-game.'


 * Could you be more clear?  You can't use Epona anywhere.  You can't use the Shadow Kagorok anywhere.  I'd like some more clarification on what it means to be "alike the ground transportation of the horse Epona".  Both can dash.  Both can attack.  Both can speed up and slow down.  You call both with music.  No, that statement was modified from before - after I pointed out you could fly in Twilight Princess.  IGN didn't say you could travel anywhere flying, either.  Oh, yeah.  Try beating the game without flying...

'No, they were the first ones to report on that -unless other big sources block information for certain users. The whole discussion on Wikipedia linked to, shows that more then anything.'


 * That's because Land of the Legend compiled OLDER INFO into one bigger report. That's a clever trick they love to do; take older info and act like posting it with new info makes their report more "important".

'You have stated yourself they have American crewmembers. I thought one of them was, but I was wrong after I did an IP check of their account on our forum.'


 * Not that I can verify. They don't disclose their staff's locations.

'From that point on, you start stating that you know they haven't got a subscription. Mind elaborating on how you know none of their American crewmembers have a subscription?'


 * See above.

'They state they have the sales data, not guessed it, and when their report using those sales data turn out correct, who are you to say they haven't got it. If you could somehow prove it, they'd make pretty good analysts. Might even have a job for them.'


 * Because the sales data they seek costs A LOT OF MONEY and I know through public records how much Martin Mujer and GameLegend makes. They can't afford it unless he's got some trust fund sitting somewhere, and to give out those other #s is illegal and thus any report of it would be deemed a violation of antitrust laws (international).  Not to mention, these sales groups do not just give out a specific report; they give out certain data to certain parties.  It's a pathetic negotiation process, but I am positive Land of the Legend does not have access to them directly because I called and verified with both NPD and Media Crate if any such account existed or if they dealt with either Martin or Land of the Legend or GameLegend.  Again, they're caught red handed.

'If anything, with that whole deal, you've proven yourself unreliable. Because they debunk your claim -I think it's safe to assume they're talking about you- with your own reported numbers. There's YOUR report on 2,02 million Wii on jan. 1 and there's YOUR report stating that on jan. 1 there had been over 500.000 GC sales in the USA alone.'


 * First, let's address their childishness. Explain that, then I'll deal with rebutting your claims here.

'Yet, you state that "at the time of Land of the Legend's report, Twilight Princess had only sold 2.3 million copies". You're contradicting yourself there.'


 * See above.

Aside whether or not lotl's claim of having the sales data is correct, their public calculation is clear enough.


 * See above.

It could easily be argued that such behavour is very unprofessional, but that aside, what matters here is that Wikipedia is not the place for personal vendetta's and it not the place to have other editors have to deal with a conflict of interest.


 * It's not the place for personal vendetta's, and it is not the place for a site like Land of the Legend. It's a fucking fan site posing as a news site with bogus records, made up stories and carbon copied news.  Not to mention, now I am going to bring up the split fiasco.  The staff are lying thieves who made off with a ton of money by posting illegal, copyrighted materials and stolen content all over their site, adspamming their reports all over game site forums.  Not to mention he (Martin) ditched several Zelda webmasters at E3 last year who had to come to ME for help to get in because they were under the impression Land of the Legend was getting them in.


 * I've explained why I do not like Land of the Legend and why I professionally believe they are unfit as a source for any information. However, I would like to know why you defend them so vigorously. Oh, it's not just Land of the Legend I criticize on your list.  Don't get me started of Jeux-Fake, er France.  The greatest content thieves and liars of our time.--TSA 04:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Response by JackSparrow Ninja 2

 * I've called you out in every imagineable place possible; my site, Land of the Legend, my talk page, Zelda article pages. You seem to want to ignore every attempt for me to reason with this nonsense, so now I am coming here where you can't hide anymore.


 * You're good at twisting things aren't you? I have an account at neither your site or lotl, so that's utter bullocks. I have no reason to visit your talk page, and all other things you've said were of the level of incivility, bordering personal attacks and/or vandalism, that it was not worth my time looking if there was something even remotely decent in it.


 * April 1st = Immunity.


 * You're feel to think so.


 * Laugh. My. Ass. Off. Did you even read their damn update before they removed it? It said THEY OBTAINED A BRAND NEW, EXCLUSIVE IMAGE FROM NINTENDO OF TWILIGHT PRINCESS. The only remaining evidence is the SCREENSHOT. The screenshot was part of a more INTRICATE hoax where they asked readers to submit THEIR THOUGHTS on what was going on in the new screenshot.


 * There was no news or information in or about that screenshot. It didn't reveal new details, it didn't announce a new game, it was just a screenshot. There was no news value to it, no information value, most certainly as far as Wikipedia is concerned.


 * Rather than say "oh, we made it up", they said they posted the screenshot as a TEST. Who's more like Sony's PR now? Us, who admitted flat out what we did with no BS, or Land of the Legend, who beat around the bush.


 * Verify that it was a joke going wrong. Your statement that it was a joke and not a test, is in it's current form, nothing more then an assumption.


 * Because that is what I was told. I am allowed to quote, or paraphrase, what was told to me. What I am not saying must go in quotes. It was not information given to me in an interview, though. The above statement was a paraphrase of NOA Localization Bill Trinen's remarks to me when trying to get some pre-screened questioning done. That tibdit was answered before the supposed interview was to happen, so I gave that info out.


 * A story greatly lacking verifiability, nor being in anyway confirmed by TP.


 * I never said I was at E3 2004, nor did I attend. However, if I recall correctly, I told people 48 hours before Nintendo's Media Briefing to expect "a shock" in terms of TWW 2's new look. That's because I spoke with a member of NOA's online team developing the teaser site for the new Zelda who saw the screenshots and I saw them early. I EVEN POSTED THEM EARLY, BEFORE THE MEDIA BRIEFING, not knowing I wasn't supposed to. This lead to a huge leak of the images, and yeah, I was the one responsible for that fiasco.


 * You had whole stories DURING E3 how you were there with Zelda, having played it and all.


 * I told the GameFAQs community I saw Ganondorf at E3 2006 while I was in the VIP area and trying to find the damn restroom. I said I saw him through one of the windows into a meeting room. The truth was I saw Ganondorf on that Wednesday, in the morning, before the show opened to anyone, when a member of NOA showed me about 10 seconds of footage which was from the cutscene after you reach the Mirror of Twilight. However, since I didn't want to royally screw up and be a source for another leak, I played it off as a joke to GameFAQs and "lied" that I "lied" about seeing it. Only a handful of my close online and offline friends knew the truth because I trusted them with the info and I described IN DETAIL what happened in what I saw, and all of them told me the day they reached that part I should have stuck it to the morons at GameFAQs, but pride is not above priviledge.


 * Any chance of verifying this story? It was already known that Ganondorf was in Zelda:TP.


 * IGN is very reliable. Spong, I've not kept a track record on. ONM I believe never delivers on their promise, but actual information they do reveal I've yet to be seen revealed as incorrect (the Tingle RPG stuff does have me suspect since I couldn't verify anything they said with Cake Media or NOE).


 * IGN is very reliable, except when they post 17 releasedates of Zelda:TP, report on Halo DS, copy faked press releases, say Merchants 2 is Xbox 360 exclusive or... -you get my drift
 * "For those unfamiliar with them, Spong is an infamous game "news" site, known mostly for making up amusing but obviously false game news." Further, they state themselves that "SPOnG.com makes no warranty or representation about the reliability or technical efficiency of the Web Site.
 * Look at the 6th thing Google brought up when searching for "nintendo official magazine reliability". A website stated that in their short life, they've already lied 14 times.


 * Could you be more clear? You can't use Epona anywhere. You can't use the Shadow Kagorok anywhere. I'd like some more clarification on what it means to be "alike the ground transportation of the horse Epona". Both can dash. Both can attack. Both can speed up and slow down. You call both with music. No, that statement was modified from before - after I pointed out you could fly in Twilight Princess. IGN didn't say you could travel anywhere flying, either. Oh, yeah. Try beating the game without flying...


 * fly across great distances


 * That's because Land of the Legend compiled OLDER INFO into one bigger report. That's a clever trick they love to do; take older info and act like posting it with new info makes their report more "important".


 * Mind explaining how -presumably- compiling older info brings up new information?


 * Not that I can verify. They don't disclose their staff's locations.


 * Yet you are certain enough to go and barch around and state they haven't got American crewmembers. Regardless of the fact that it's contradicted that one 'well-known' American NoA forum member is a staff member, and another staff member of them is a fellow Sage on the same forum.


 * Because the sales data they seek costs A LOT OF MONEY and I know through public records how much Martin Mujer and GameLegend makes. They can't afford it unless he's got some trust fund sitting somewhere, and to give out those other #s is illegal and thus any report of it would be deemed a violation of antitrust laws (international). Not to mention, these sales groups do not just give out a specific report; they give out certain data to certain parties. It's a pathetic negotiation process, but I am positive Land of the Legend does not have access to them directly because I called and verified with both NPD and Media Crate if any such account existed or if they dealt with either Martin or Land of the Legend or GameLegend.


 * 1) Mind giving a link to public records of how much international people earn? curious if I can find my name on it.
 * 2) How do you think to get information about someone who's name you can't even spell right.
 * 3) I find it very unlikely NPD and Media Crate would just go and give out information to some mr. Damiani from USA because he wants to make a point on Wikipedia. You're welcome to give us a chance to verify though.
 * 4) You assume to know of, and have checked, all possible sources one can have. A somewhat strange statement don't you think?


 * First, let's address their childishness. Explain that, then I'll deal with rebutting your claims here.


 * Yet you fail to adress it... You could have just asked for some time to figure it out. That aside, it's pretty rediculous to prioritize something irrelevant to the topic over the very topic. You would have been better of not saying anything.


 * The staff are lying thieves who made off with a ton of money by posting illegal, copyrighted materials and stolen content all over their site, adspamming their reports all over game site forums.


 * You do understand you too have video's, screenshots and artwork on your website right? As does IGN, GameSpot... hey, EVERYONE! Welcome to the media.
 * That aside, the whole break-up is two parties saying something different. Unless you can proof who is right, you're just on another track of unverifiable OR.

Not to mention he (Martin) ditched several Zelda webmasters at E3 last year who had to come to ME for help to get in because they were under the impression Land of the Legend was getting them in.
 * There were only 3 webmasters supposed to be going to start with:
 * The Missing Link said he couldn't go prior to E3.
 * I don't know the deal with ZeldaLegends's webmaster, but if someone treats you so bad, I don't think you'd have them and keep them on your top affiliates, as well as quote them on news items.
 * Unless you are the GameLegend that read on Goddess Rinoa's pass, you are wrong about that. That aside, this doesn't look very mistreated.
 * Feel free to proof yourself.

However, I would like to know why you defend them so vigorously.
 * Because they are one of the few sources of which I KNOW they can be trusted, and I do not need someone here on Wikipedia spamming his own website -who I've experienced to be the opposite- and deleting a good source, along with correct information he personally couldn't verify.
 * I'll defend every website on this list to the amount I know them. Land of the Legend is the only one so heavy under fire by you.

''Oh, it's not just Land of the Legend I criticize on your list. Don't get me started of Jeux-Fake, er France. The greatest content thieves and liars of our time.''
 * I must have missed when you addressed this to me. Please show me and verify your statements.

Next time, try not to send personal attacks to wikipedia users. JackSparrow Ninja 16:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Only a staff member would know about the E3 2006 Zelda webmaster stuff. As such, you've been found to be a member of a site you post as a source for links, which is a Conflict of Interest, which was pointed out to me by Jedi6.  As such, I am removing all your additions of Land of the Legend because you are active staff and it is a conflict of interest. Jedi6, when you read this, let me know and please back me up now since I brought this to light like I promised I would. --TSA 13:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Somehow I don't think Jedi6 appreciates that you hold him for a fool.
 * To refresh your memory, the 'webmaster stuff' was openly discussed on your own forum, and I, among others, know about Goddess Rinoa through photo's, not surprisingly again something public.
 * Or are you next going to state that I am a crewmember of the Hylia because I happen to know that you went to E3 with your girlfriend TPZ and the Link cosplayer girl (sorry, forgot her name). That I happen to know that you went to the Nintendo conference and that you -The Hylia- had black entry passes.
 * Rather then trying to twist everything, try and dodge the facts, plain-out lie and hold other users and admins for fools, just answer the issues that have been presented to you. JackSparrow Ninja 16:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a note on TSA acusing Martijn(!) of the following:
 * "Not to mention Martin hijacked my acccount and posted inappropriate remarks with it. That's just childisn and pathetic."
 * I know for a fact that the user RecklessAbandon was it who made a joke by using TSA's account and posting something about TSA admitting he was wrong, you can go and ask him for youself.
 * As for the hijacking, RecklessAbandon is a server admin and can put anything in a mysql database, so can TSA with his cutenews system. And further more this wasn't anything harmfull insulting or whatsoever. Just a joke from the server admin who maybe didn't do it if he knew it would be such a problem. - Bolle is Geweldig! 19:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Even though irrelevant to the matter of reliability, thank you for your feedback on the subject. JackSparrow Ninja 09:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Response by TSA 2

 * Posting false statements as me making me look like an asshole is hardly harmless. I actually had nothing against Reckless - I just had it out for Martin and Dragoness because they seem to feel the need to start petty fights with my site and me, but now that I know their server admin was the one behind it, well, I have no respect for any staff anymore.


 * As for the sales data, we never contradicted ourselves, all of our data was based on Media Crate (Japan), NPD (North America) and EU sales data made public. It costs tens-of-thousands of dollars alone to purchase NPD and have access to the numbers.  In fact, posting a full report of the NPD numbers is strictly forbidden, you can only disclose the numbers NPD tells you.  Media crate, Japan's sales tracker, did not even track the GCN TP sales.  The only sales data is held by Nintendo, and they will not comment on the sales of Twilight Princess on GCN (I tried calling their press office the other day to get numbers and they will not reveal them to anyone).  We will not know anything on Twilight Princess on GCN's 2007 sales data in the EU until December 2007 unless somebody leaks it.  All of the data in our report was accurate and verifiable.  As the Wiki admins pointed out, the data being tossed around was initially presented by Land of the Legend to override NOA's statement on the Worldwide Sales of Zelda, which they still cite as 47 million, and that only Nintendo's own reports can override such a statement because NPD has actually been proven to be faulty in their reporting sometimes (they miscalculated TP's December sales and they actually didn't combine Wii/GCN versions for overall sales in December).  With their only other official announcement, which says Twilight Princess sold over 1 million copies, that puts it at 48 million officially by Nintendo's own admission.  The sales figures presented to NOA actually come from the public financial report in their press area, which is little more than the Japanese Stockholder reports which are officially from NCL, not actually NOA.


 * Just for giggles, how many hours a day do Land of the Legend staff work on news and calling sources and tracking down stories? How much media to they put up?  Seriously, I'd like to know why they think they are a credible news source when all they do is copy and paste existing stories and press releases.  They don't even provide original media anymore - something that would hold SOME merity with their status as a news outlet. When their legal e-mail responds back with taunts from Martin, instead of something more professional, it's rather obvious the entire setup is a facade...a cherade.


 * My report on LotL's numbers was not part of a personal vendetta. LotL posted unverifiable, inaccurate information.  As a journalist, I have to call people on that.  Don't publish stuff if you can't back it up.  Because of that report, Land of the Legend felt the need to mock me and begin posting an "update" about a book for dummies, rather than trying to come back at the report and putting the grudge aside.  I actually was going to argue the rebuttal, but when I saw LotL took it down to a low level of cheap shots, I didn't even bother.  But this is over.  I agreed with the Wiki admins that the sales data should remain up to Nintendo's official press releases, and should not be updated until they update their own numbers.


 * As for the Tingle RPG claim, I know LotL added "we spoke with Nintendo", but I am here to tell you I did, too. I spent an hour on Thursday speaking with 3 different people at NOE trying to get to the bottom of why they were saying they heard nothing of Tingle RPG in the EU, but somehow LotL got a statement.  I finally actually got a statement from Laurent Fischer, head of marketing for NOE, saying there was no update on Tingle RPG in Europe at this time, but they had no further comment on if/when it would be released there.  So, I'd like to know who at Nintendo LotL spoke with.  Not only that, NOA says they don't know if the game is coming out in America, and NCL's press center would not give a commment on the release outside of Japan.  So, while all of this SUGGESTS the game is not coming out in March in Europe, as claimed by ONM, nobody has said for sure it ISN'T.  Now, if LotL wants to fix their update and say "nobody at Nintendo would confirm/deny ONM's report", then that would be awesome.  I even contacted the ONM staff inquiring as to how they could maybe verify or give more proof their story was legit, but I have not heard back.  However, Cubed3 and ONM have both reported playing an English version, and I don't want to believe both are lying.


 * Honestly, I am not happy with how LotL conducts itself, but if they would just be more thorough and give better credit to things, I would back off. If they want to continue their childish ways, then fine, I'll make it a point to call them out on every little thing they slip up on. If they want to be a real media outlet, start acting like one and do a better job with the site.


 * As for here, JackSparrow_Ninja, you seriously adspam LotL too much. Your reliability page is nothing but a taunt and is really not needed. But feel free to do what you want - but just know if you plan on using LotL citations, you better also consider TheHylia for citations AND you better make sure the citations are APPROPRIATE and RELEVANT.


 * As for my explanation on Jeux-France, they've stolen so many things from The Hylia, as well as other sites, in terms of images. I don't know how many times they will jack exclusive screens or foreign scans or artwork...and just not give credit and watermark them as their own.  Nowadays, they steal mostly from NeoGAF. --TSA 08:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Question from RaccoonsOwn
Is TSA admitting that he has a grudge towards 2 of the most crucial people at landofthelegend.net by saying "I just had it out for Martin and Dragoness". So the opion about the website is in my opinion anything but neutral. Or am i not correct in my logics? Bolle is Geweldig! 16:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Response by JackSparrow Ninja 3

 * You report here that on jan. 1 there have been 2,02 million Wii copies sold, and you state here that on jan. 1 there had been over 500.000 GC sales in the USA alone. So, by your own reports, on january first, Twilight Princess has sold over 2,5 million copies. Yet later, you state that "at the time of Land of the Legend's report," 2 weeks after january first, "Twilight Princess had only sold 2.3 million copies". That is contradicting yourself flatout.


 * I hope you do realize that accusing NPD of being wrong with combined sales doesn't make sense, as IGN's report is only about the Wii version sales, nor do they say when it's passed 1 million.


 * That aside, the source you use to state that halfway through February there have been only just 3 million Wii sales, hasn't updated since January 11.


 * With all your assumptions about how lotl could have come to the claim to have said numbers, you only assume the general channels and give us unverified statements about those channels. All they really said though, is that they have had the numbers to conclude it passed 3 million. Which, in the easiest way of thinking, could also mean that they gave NoE and/or NoAustralia a call and asked "did GC sales pass 400.000 or not?". By those means, even if they wouldn't have exact numbers, it is perfectly verified information. You're thinking too small.


 * It's nice you don't want to comment on them calculating you wrong, but if I were you, I would, because as of now, you've provided incorrect information to the world (via your website) and to Wikipedia, which very much equals unreliable.


 * Thank you for coming here telling us that you too did talk to Nintendo of Europe. Congratulations. Now what should we do with said unverified original research? Furthermore, why do you come here to ask who lotl spoke to? Most importantly, there are a few things you are missing the point with by a mile.
 * The fact that Nintendo doesn't (want to) disclose information to you, doesn't mean they don't disclose information to anyone. If that was the case, then no one in the world would ever have exclusive reports. You basically say it yourself by stating you believe that Cubed3 and ONM have played an English version. By that, the fact that Nintendo hasn't said to you they would confirm or deny it, doesn't mean they didn't say it at all.
 * It is still very unlikely, most certainly because it remains unverified, that anyone you call, just gives out information about the other parties they work with. I know if my press department worked like that, I'd fire them.
 * You seem a little lost on how Nintendo works (in Europe). First of, Cake Media is just the press department of Nintendo of Europe, they're not Nintendo of Europe themselves. Secondly, Nintendo of Europe in England is only the administrative NoE head office, the development head office is in Germany. Thirdly, Europe is a continent, not a country. Nintendo has over 10 offices in Europe.


 * If you would like to contribute to Wikipedia, please lay out your concerns regarding Jeux-France in more detail, and with verified information. And just a note, I hope you can back up your claims regarding stealing stuff from you better then you tried to do with lotl, because coming with vain unbelievable claims like that, don't do your case any good.

JackSparrow Ninja 01:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Response by TSA 3

 * You report here that on jan. 1 there have been 2,02 million Wii copies sold, and you state here that on jan. 1 there had been over 500.000 GC sales in the USA alone. So, by your own reports, on january first, Twilight Princess has sold over 2,5 million copies. Yet later, you state that "at the time of Land of the Legend's report," 2 weeks after january first, "Twilight Princess had only sold 2.3 million copies". That is contradicting yourself flatout.


 * The 2.3 million accountable Wii copies + the accountable GCN copies /= more than 3million, which is what we said. I believe we said 2.89 or 2.91 million copies were accounted for.  That's CLOSE to 3 million, but it is NOT 3 million nor MORE than 3 million.  We were NOT incorrect.  Perhaps I didn't clarify the 2.3 million was referring to only Wii or mislabeled it.


 * I hope you do realize that accusing NPD of being wrong with combined sales doesn't make sense, as IGN's report is only about the Wii version sales, nor do they say when it's passed 1 million.


 * Moron, they 1) Fucked up the December sales because their ORIGINAL posting had GCN TP >> Wii TP in sales and 2) they FORGOT for TOP 10 SALES ALL CONSOLE SOFTWARE to combine TP Wii/GCN because they combined OTHER franchise games in that category, but NOT TP. They misprinted information.  It was well documented.


 * That aside, the source you use to state that halfway through February there have been only just 3 million Wii sales, hasn't updated since January 11.


 * Your point?


 * With all your assumptions about how lotl could have come to the claim to have said numbers, you only assume the general channels and give us unverified statements about those channels. All they really said though, is that they have had the numbers to conclude it passed 3 million.


 * They didn't.


 * Which, in the easiest way of thinking, could also mean that they gave NoE and/or NoAustralia a call and asked "did GC sales pass 400.000 or not?".


 * Australia's sales are not factored into NCL's worldwide franchise sales. Don't ask me WHY, I don't know.


 * By those means, even if they wouldn't have exact numbers, it is perfectly verified information. You're thinking too small.

It's nice you don't want to comment on them calculating you wrong, but if I were you, I would, because as of now, you've provided incorrect information to the world (via your website) and to Wikipedia, which very much equals unreliable.


 * I just clarified my #s and you still haven't proven LotL's sources were right. Now that I clarified I meant Wii sales with the 2.3 million, the report is not wrong.  I posted this same logic on NeoGAF and editors from major publications read it and though one had a gripe with TWW's sales figures, they found that my math was correct.


 * Thank you for coming here telling us that you too did talk to Nintendo of Europe. Congratulations. Now what should we do with said unverified original research? Furthermore, why do you come here to ask who lotl spoke to? Most importantly, there are a few things you are missing the point with by a mile. The fact that Nintendo doesn't (want to) disclose information to you, doesn't mean they don't disclose information to anyone.


 * They said they never spoke with Land of the Legend. That good enough for you?


 * If that was the case, then no one in the world would ever have exclusive reports. You basically say it yourself by stating you believe that Cubed3 and ONM have played an English version. By that, the fact that Nintendo hasn't said to you they would confirm or deny it, doesn't mean they didn't say it at all.


 * There is a chance they both lied. I'd prefer not to believe that, but it is possible.


 * It is still very unlikely, most certainly because it remains unverified, that anyone you call, just gives out information about the other parties they work with. I know if my press department worked like that, I'd fire them.


 * Yeah, just like what happened with Kotaku and Sony today. Nobody gets fired for leaking Tingle RPG is coming out in English....it's not that big of a deal.


 * You seem a little lost on how Nintendo works (in Europe). First of, Cake Media is just the press department of Nintendo of Europe, they're not Nintendo of Europe themselves. Secondly, Nintendo of Europe in England is only the administrative NoE head office, the development head office is in Germany. Thirdly, Europe is a continent, not a country. Nintendo has over 10 offices in Europe.


 * You're a fucking moron. I know god damned well Europe is a fucking continent,  I also know the difference between the UK and Great Britain.  I know NoE is headquartered in GERMANY with over a DOZEN divisions in the EU.  I have contacts at ALL of them, except Italy for some odd reason, and I know Cake Media is NOT NOE.  They're just like what Golin/Harris is to NOA here.  Don't patronize me, please.


 * If you would like to contribute to Wikipedia, please lay out your concerns regarding Jeux-France in more detail, and with verified information. And just a note, I hope you can back up your claims regarding stealing stuff from you better then you tried to do with lotl, because coming with vain unbelievable claims like that, don't do your case any good.


 * Go to that fucking blog where they steal artwork, videos and screenshots from every site (even Land of the Legend - they stole something from you guys). Just google "Jeux-France Blog Twilight Princess".  You'll find a huge blog about Fire Emblem and Twilight Princess.  Now time to go revert your Tingle RPG edit. --TSA 06:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. JackSparrow Ninja 14:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Remark about TSA`s response
i do not think anyone should be allowed to write such an answer.

also i find that TSA is dodging answers and also has useless comments such as 'they didnt' a remark not supported by facts. Maybe the person you talked didnt talk to lotl or is it too yard to understand that not all staff know of each other to who they talked to the past week? It really ticks me off that someone gives such a poor and non-factual comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RaccoonsOwn (talk • contribs) 12:12, 2 March 2007


 * Sorry about not signing, im on a pda, its harder to navigate on it.
 * Maybe wiki should consider making a pda format also? 89.205.146.195 17:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Response by JackSparrow Ninja 4
The only one you hurt with those personal attacks is your own reputation and credibility.


 * Anyway, you say that "at the time of Land of the Legend's report, Twilight Princess had only sold 2.3 million copies, falling pretty far short of the 3 million warranting a 50 million claim." The 50 million claim was obviously towards the combined sales, as it referred to the series, which of course include GC sales as well. Yet, by your own given numbers, 2 weeks before the time of Land of the Legend's report, Twilight Princess had already sold 2.56 million copies accounted for. Their calculation, on which you have still not commented, additionally shows it is perfectly feasible to assume that Twilight Princess had passed 3 million on January 1st. Given those circumstances, stating Twilight Princess had not passed 3 million by them, not by official counts but not at all, is far sought.


 * Choosing between a source that states they have had the knowledge they needed for said statement which is backed up by numbers for those who don't believe they have a source, and a source that disclaims a perfectly feasable fact, after having contradicted itself (see first 2 lines of this alinea), is easy.


 * The source you use to state that "Twilight Princess has sold 2.35 million copies worldwide on Wii as of the end of January 2007", hasn't been updated since January 11. You're missing almost 3 weeks. Is that your idea of professional journalism


 * Regardless of what twist you try to put to the NPD/IGN story, a quote by Nintendo easily overrules any speculation from your side.


 * Mind giving a valid reason for stating they didn't have the numbers?


 * You do realise that saying Australia's numbers are not accounted for, it being unverified information aside, does not answer the question. But, to reword:
 * Which, in the easiest way of thinking, could also mean that they gave NoE a call and asked "did GC sales pass 400.000 or not?".


 * Nice that you say once more that according to you "They said they never spoke with Land of the Legend", but that doesn't bring us any further. We don't even know if you're not lying, as you have done so before in this very discussion.


 * Your Kotaku/Sony comment is way off track again. A PR deparment doesn't/shouldn't talk to website A about website B and vice versa. If such was the case with my pr department, I would fire them. It's like that with all your claims of so-called knowledge. Why would NPD care if you would call them and ask them about other parties that do or do not work with them, in the case of NPD even their clients.


 * So you know that Nintendo of Europe has x amount of offices, and still you base all your claims on contacting one of them; assuming they would give you the information about their other parties.


 * That comment about Jeux-France is vain once more.

JackSparrow Ninja 01:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Response by TSA 4

 * The only one you hurt with those personal attacks is your own reputation and credibility.


 * Not really. I'm pretty sure just about everyone in the community has been directed to this Wiki page through e-mails asking for a review of this page by Zelda webmasters.  While they believe I'm being a bit brash, they did all agree this entire page makes Land of the Legend look very unreliable and simply trying to egg on The Hylia and myself.


 * Anyway, you say that "at the time of Land of the Legend's report, Twilight Princess had only sold 2.3 million copies, falling pretty far short of the 3 million warranting a 50 million claim." The 50 million claim was obviously towards the combined sales, as it referred to the series, which of course include GC sales as well.


 * Nowhere was that made clear in Land of the Legends rather bland and unspecific report.


 * Yet, by your own given numbers, 2 weeks before the time of Land of the Legend's report, Twilight Princess had already sold 2.56 million copies accounted for. Their calculation, on which you have still not commented, additionally shows it is perfectly feasible to assume that Twilight Princess had passed 3 million on January 1st.


 * Land of the Legend has not revealed the source of its data, they simply said they have access to it. How the hell can Land of the Legend "say something" without hard evidence, and yet when I say something without it, now I'm more unreliable?  No offense, anyone saying anything without "hard evidence" is unreliable.  Land of the Legend said it has access to sales data not available to other people.  I'd like them to disclose the exact figures.  Please have them, as of a certain date, publish the data they have.  They should have nothing to hide if they are so reliable.  And I mean specific numbers...and where they got those numbers from.  Then we'll talk.


 * Given those circumstances, stating Twilight Princess had not passed 3 million by them, not by official counts but not at all, is far sought.


 * Nintendo Company Limited is the final say on the sales numbers of its product officially, not Media Crate, not NPD, not any EU or Australia or South American faction. NCL says 47 million total Zelda series sales.  The debate ends there, it is now pointless to argue anything else because niether The Hylia nor Land of the Legend is the authority on final sales figures.  My article on The Hylia was simply to show Land of the Legend "guessed", and how could a "guess" be used as a reliable source?  And since when did Land of the Legend supersede NCL?


 * Choosing between a source that states they have had the knowledge they needed for said statement which is backed up by numbers for those who don't believe they have a source, and a source that disclaims a perfectly feasable fact, after having contradicted itself (see first 2 lines of this alinea), is easy.


 * I already clarified this, I did not contradict myself, and you took what I said out of context.


 * The source you use to state that "Twilight Princess has sold 2.35 million copies worldwide on Wii as of the end of January 2007", hasn't been updated since January 11. You're missing almost 3 weeks. Is that your idea of professional journalism

Regardless of what twist you try to put to the NPD/IGN story, a quote by Nintendo easily overrules any speculation from your side.


 * What source would this be? VG Charts NPD Sales data?  Which as of this moment, says the Wii version sold 2.89 copies worldwide (EU/JP/NA)?  That TP GCN has sold around 710,000 copies in NA?  That's about 3.6 million accountable sales from Media Crate, EU sales charts and NPD as of Mar 3 2007.  According to NPD, Twilight Princess Wii had sold 1,048,000 as of the end of December 2006, and this data was made public in mid-January,  but several sources, including Nintendo.  At the time of January 13th, 2007 (and this data wasn't made public until a week after), Twilight Princess in Japan on Wii sold 361,500 copies.  Also, in December's NPD data, GCN TP sold 565,250 copies.  As of this moment, the EU total for Twilight Princess sales for Wii made public are 910,000 copies.  What does all of that - the ONLY public data available for the sales through December 2006 (though the EU data is through January 2007) add up to? 2,884,750 copies accountable.  That's pretty damn close to the 2.89 I said were accountable, was it not?  I ADMIT THIS # DOES NOT INCLUDE: EUROPE GCN SALES, JAPAN GCN SALES, or sales from ANY OTHER REGION OUTSIDE OF JAPAN/NORTH AMERICA/EUROPE.  But for the sake of the NCL claim of 47 million Zelda copies sold in the series, they only use EU/JAPAN/NA #s, so all other territories, for the sake of official statistics by NCL's account, are not valid (if you dispute this, take it up with NCL and get them to include the #s, or perform original research and have it verified by other sources to counter NCL's claims).  As for the Japanese/EU GCN sales, it is verly likely they were high enough that in January, at some point, TP sales surpassed 3 million worldwide on both Wii/GCN.  But my whole damn point is THOSE TWO LAST VARIABLES ARE NOT VERFIABLE, and I am saying that Land of the Legend, nor ANY PRESS ENTITY, has that information in detail.  That means at ANY POINT IN JANUARY that ANY SITE claimed TP sold more than 3 million copies worldwide, or "3 million", they were GUESSING or ASSUMING.  I really do not get what is so difficult to understand about what I just said.  It's clean cut and dry, and everyone else on this planet who isn't associated with LotL agrees with me.


 * Mind giving a valid reason for stating they didn't have the numbers?


 * GCN sales data for Japan/EU has not been made public to anyone. In fact, the Japan #s are only known by NCL because all GCN TP sales were done online through their store.


 * You do realise that saying Australia's numbers are not accounted for, it being unverified information aside, does not answer the question.


 * What are you talking about? The 47 million figure doesn't include anything outside of EU/JP/NA.  Australia's #s aren't facotred into it, they shouldn't be brought up in this context.


 * But, to reword: Which, in the easiest way of thinking, could also mean that they gave NoE a call and asked "did GC sales pass 400.000 or not?".


 * Prove they said that to you. Why do I have to prove Land of the Legend did get a call?  I tried to verify it, everyone on that I could contact that is associated with NOE denied saying anything of the sort.  The burden of proof is on LotL now.  And nowhere in the original article did they state they got numbers on the GCN sales from NOE.


 * Nice that you say once more that according to you "They said they never spoke with Land of the Legend", but that doesn't bring us any further. We don't even know if you're not lying, as you have done so before in this very discussion.


 * I haven't lied. Where did I lie, sir?  You're really getting out of line.


 * Your Kotaku/Sony comment is way off track again. A PR deparment doesn't/shouldn't talk to website A about website B and vice versa. If such was the case with my pr department, I would fire them. It's like that with all your claims of so-called knowledge. Why would NPD care if you would call them and ask them about other parties that do or do not work with them, in the case of NPD even their clients.


 * You have no clue how this works. Just stop talking please before you make yourself look any worse.


 * So you know that Nintendo of Europe has x amount of offices, and still you base all your claims on contacting one of them; assuming they would give you the information about their other parties.


 * You also can't read, can you. Try re-reading my previous remarks, then learn to count.  When you pass basic math and reading comprehension, we can resume this little chat.


 * That comment about Jeux-France is vain once more.


 * How so? Even if I point out the stuff they took, and show the original sites, you'll say "prove they had it first", or some other nonsense.  It never ends with you or LotL.  But judging from your "active users" and your Alexa data, I think enough is enough.  Do what you want, say what you want.  This is the last time I will publicly address you or LotL (except to edit out your links when you adspam on Wiki).  BTW, doesn't it suck that The Hylia beats out Land of the Legend in every European country in terms of traffic and reach?  We must really have the entire world fooled, don't we?  I mean, if we're so unreliable, why do people keep coming to our site?  Why do we keep getting invited to press access at events or media-only events?  Has LotL even received it's E3 invite (yeah, it's still happening, and yeah, Nintendo's having a private media gathering in Santa Monica)?  Seriously, actions speak louder than this BS.  An unreliable site does not fool people like this, you can't "fake" your way into everything...we would have been exposed if we were "fake" or unreliable.  You accuse us of 2 fake interviews and some TP rumors.  LotL did more than that over its course of existence, and so has every other gaming site on the planet.  Honestly, LotL brought it upon themselves...I'm just the most vocal about how displeased I am.  If you really think I am the only person who feels this way, it is YOU GUYS who are living in a fantasy world.  You've become so embarassing that you're not even talked about or acknowledged.  Do you really not get it?  If you want to be masters of wikipedia, you know what, have at it.  I won't even edit your crap anymore, go ahead, put whatever you want.  It won't make a difference, but since you seem to think it will, I'll just prove it.  Put back the Tingle RPG reference.  Go back and put the sales data up on the main Zelda article.  I have no dispute.  See where it gets you.  I'm out, have fun arguing. --TSA 11:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Response by JackSparrow Ninja 5

 * Not really. I'm pretty sure just about everyone in the community has been directed to this Wiki page through e-mails asking for a review of this page by Zelda webmasters. While they believe I'm being a bit brash, they did all agree this entire page makes Land of the Legend look very unreliable and simply trying to egg on The Hylia and myself.

'''Aside from the fact that this claim is incredibly unverified as usual, it is irrelevant. Wikipedia doesn't care about what you want us to believe others think of this, it's about your behaviour here and now.'''


 * Nowhere was that made clear in Land of the Legends rather bland and unspecific report.

'''Now you're just acting stupid. There is no feasable reason whatsoever to assume that in reporting on the sales of the series, one would not include the GameCube sales of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. In the same report, you do add the GameCube sales to the series sales, so you're making no sense here.'''


 * Land of the Legend has not revealed the source of its data, they simply said they have access to it. How the hell can Land of the Legend "say something" without hard evidence, and yet when I say something without it, now I'm more unreliable? No offense, anyone saying anything without "hard evidence" is unreliable. Land of the Legend said it has access to sales data not available to other people. I'd like them to disclose the exact figures. Please have them, as of a certain date, publish the data they have. They should have nothing to hide if they are so reliable. And I mean specific numbers...and where they got those numbers from. Then we'll talk.

'''Because Land of the Legend's report is proven correct. Your report, eventhough you state a source, is incorrect because the source was proven to be outdated. The source you used hadn't updated since a month before you used it.'''


 * Nintendo Company Limited is the final say on the sales numbers of its product officially, not Media Crate, not NPD, not any EU or Australia or South American faction. NCL says 47 million total Zelda series sales. The debate ends there, it is now pointless to argue anything else because niether The Hylia nor Land of the Legend is the authority on final sales figures. My article on The Hylia was simply to show Land of the Legend "guessed", and how could a "guess" be used as a reliable source? And since when did Land of the Legend supersede NCL?

'''The 47 million report by NCL is 2 or so years old. It's a simple case of adding the latest sales. Your article shows nothing, other then YOU don't know their source, and instead you use outdated numbers for an 'up-to-date' report.'''


 * What does all of that - the ONLY public data available for the sales through December 2006 (though the EU data is through January 2007) add up to? 2,884,750 copies accountable. That's pretty damn close to the 2.89 I said were accountable, was it not? I ADMIT THIS # DOES NOT INCLUDE: EUROPE GCN SALES, JAPAN GCN SALES, or sales from ANY OTHER REGION OUTSIDE OF JAPAN/NORTH AMERICA/EUROPE. But for the sake of the NCL claim of 47 million Zelda copies sold in the series, they only use EU/JAPAN/NA #s, so all other territories, for the sake of official statistics by NCL's account, are not valid (if you dispute this, take it up with NCL and get them to include the #s, or perform original research and have it verified by other sources to counter NCL's claims). As for the Japanese/EU GCN sales, it is verly likely they were high enough that in January, at some point, TP sales surpassed 3 million worldwide on both Wii/GCN. But my whole damn point is THOSE TWO LAST VARIABLES ARE NOT VERFIABLE, and I am saying that Land of the Legend, nor ANY PRESS ENTITY, has that information in detail. That means at ANY POINT IN JANUARY that ANY SITE claimed TP sold more than 3 million copies worldwide, or "3 million", they were GUESSING or ASSUMING.

'''You say that they are guessing or assuming ONLY because Nintendo, or whatever source they have, will not tell you. As soon as all information by all press entities can be verified by anyone, we'll talk further. Just going around and stating things because you feel left behind is no reason.'''


 * GCN sales data for Japan/EU has not been made public to anyone. In fact, the Japan #s are only known by NCL because all GCN TP sales were done online through their store.

'''You say that they are guessing or assuming ONLY because Nintendo, or whatever source they have, will not tell you. As soon as all information by all press entities can be verified by anyone, we'll talk further. Just going around and stating things because you feel left behind is no reason.'''


 * Your Kotaku/Sony comment is way off track again. A PR deparment doesn't/shouldn't talk to website A about website B and vice versa. If such was the case with my pr department, I would fire them. It's like that with all your claims of so-called knowledge. Why would NPD care if you would call them and ask them about other parties that do or do not work with them, in the case of NPD even their clients.
 * You have no clue how this works. Just stop talking please before you make yourself look any worse.

'''I do know how this works, and that's why I know you're talking out of your behind. If you are so sure you're correct about this rediculous statement, prove it.'''


 * You also can't read, can you. Try re-reading my previous remarks, then learn to count.

'''All your remarks are along the lines of "I contacted Cake Media and they told me they didn't speak to them". Aside from the fact stated above, that it sounds more like you're feeling left behind, you constantly state that you only contacted one pr department.You also can't read, can you. Try re-reading my previous remarks, then learn to count. When you pass basic math and reading comprehension, we can resume this little chat.'''


 * Last paragraph.

'''It's funny how you keep going on how Lotl has done more, but can come up with no proof whatsoever. Anyone can make a claim of plagiarism, but such claims are worthless if you can't back them up. Supposed plagiarism aside, it is about reliability of the news reports, not the source from it. A source must be able to be relied on when it comes to information coming from them. Plagiarism, in case it is true, is a case for webmasters, not for Wikipedia.

So far however, all you say about JF is a claim of plagiarism, which doesn't help. Please show where they have been wrong in news reports.'''

JackSparrow Ninja 19:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

False statements by TSA

 * "I haven't lied. Where did I lie, sir?"


 * Proven false statements
 * Claiming NPD and Media Crate publically release information about their clients.
 * You have to be kidding me. Go to NPD's site.  Contact them.  Just ask to verify if X person or X organization is a member of the NPD.  End of story.  Do the same in the EU...
 *  Looks like this one can even go up to proven false statements. Thanks for pointing me to the NPD website.
 *  "NPD does not share your personal information with any other company or with individuals outside of our company."


 * Trying to contact JackSparrow Ninja via two websites on which said user has no accounts.
 * Unverifiable, so it is not a lie, but his activities are highly suspicious. I'm accusing him of being a staff member of LotL - their psuedo-PR person.
 * Verifiable. Simply show the account JackSparrow Ninja on either website. Oh no, it doesn't exist...
 * What do you think to gain by such vain accusations? Accusations are worthless, and nothing more then vain when they're backed up by nothing.
 * I would like to add that even IF JackSparrow_Ninja would be related to landofthelegend.net then it still would not change the fact that TSA has been lying in this discussion or twisting stories. The main issue was wheter lotl was reliable or not. So far in my opinion TSA has NOT proved lotl to be unreliable but did in fact prove himself to be unreliable since he has been caught lying fairly often in this discussion. I dont think anyone with common sense would disagree with me actually. Bolle is Geweldig! 13:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So basically "you have to prove LotL unreliable, but we don't have to prove it reliable". Also, funny that the only activity on Wikipedia you've ever done is defend LotL. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Accusing LotL of leaving other webmasters out of E3, and TSA 'saving' them and helping them get in.
 * Speak with Lord-of-Shadow please. I tried to help him get in contact with LotL for over a day and offerred to get him in through my contacts because he did NOT get in under Land of the Legend, he ended up using a friend's, Melora of History of Hyrule, media badge, and I had to get Goddess Rinoa into the Wii Booth with my VIP access so she could play TP once before leaving (after flying from Michigan) since she couldn't get a hold of Martin when she needed to.  Martin also tried to schedule a get-together, but didn't even show and the rest of us just organized our own.
 * '''Changing from a proven incorrect statement -it's gone from getting webmasters (plural) to one webmaster and the Nintendo booth- to an unverified statement, not backed up by the seeming relation between all webmasters included in this, doesn't really help you. Even if said, unrelevant yet unverified, statement is correct, it means you've lied in this statement to begin with.


 * Accusation of LotL plagiarizing because they would not be able to receive Nintendo Power or EGM magazines, because they would not have American crewmembers.
 * I claimed this. I say it because everytime The Hylia posts about a story from NP/EGM, you guys have it up right after.  I believed LotL had an American staff member, but the person in question was NOT a member of your staff, just a very active forum member.  They said they didn't provide LotL with scans of NP/EGM.  So unless they've got somebody else they've not mentioned, they have no visible American staff.
 * You are going wrong here in many ways.
 * You assume you know everyone of their staff.
 * You assume that the crew would disclose information to the site's 'arch-enemy'.
 * You talk of THE person (singular), and they (plural) didn't provide... Make up your mind.
 * As usual, this claim is extremely unverified.
 * The chance of Dragoness (who you say to hate her guts, and she says to hate your guts) actually disclosing such information to you is as big as Phil Harrison one-sidedly stating that he talked to George Harrison, who said that Nintendo actually ripped of the PS3's motion sensing controller with the Wii Remote.


 * Accusing LotL of plagiarizing information on the differences between the NGC and Wii version of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, while they were the first to report on it.
 * They weren't the first to report on it. That's a lie.  Part of their report is COPIED information made public through an earlier report which LotL is claiming they exclusively reported.
 * If such is the case, I'm sure you don't mind explaining why it took 5 days to find another source.
 * Again you fail to explain how compiling old information can turn up new information.


 * Accusing LotL of plagiarizing information while said source provides video evidence along with it's report.
 * When The Hylia was on Joomla, we made a detailed controls guide and write up on Phantom Hourglass. Within an hour, LotL copied it.  They've since modified it, but originally it was stolen from TheHylia word-for-word.
 * I find it interesting how your claims go from plagiarizing NWR to plagiarizing The Hylia, and still claim you don't lie.
 * I can't wait to hear your explanation how they got the video footage. They must have stolen the video tape from someone then. I do hope you reported them to the police.


 * Claiming there are public records of a person's and (non stockmarket) companie's financial income.
 * In the United States there is something called the Freedom of Information act. There is a similar law in Holland.  You can request financial records from private citizens if you can provide just cause.  My cause was verification of facts for a report - not to disclose the info, but to verify.  I did not disclose anyones info and I signed a document saying I would be held in violation of Holland law if I did.
 * And in Holland there also is a Privacy law. This kind of information is not available to anyone but the tax services and people who have autorization. I am very certain you are not able to look up such info. If you still are trying to stand by your statement, please show me the details on how you would obtain the financial info on say this Martin guy. (I wonder how to look up such info by only knowing someones name and even spelling it wrong). And even IF there was such an idiotic law (you would be able to just pick out some rich guy to kidnap his kids from by obtaining such info) it wouldn't be available outside the Netherlands (Holland is just a province). So this is a very very bold statement. If you truly did obtain any information on said subject, you would probably find yourself guilty of a criminal offence. Bolle is Geweldig! 09:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You are going wrong here in many ways too.
 * First of all RaccoonsOwn is correct about privacy, and on top of that I find it hard to believe such is different in America, where many people freak out if you even ask their name.
 * The Freedom of Information act means that you have the right to see information about yourself, not about others.
 * You disclose the information that they are supposedly not rich enough. Do I read criminal offence?
 * Mind explaining how you get information of someone who's name you can't spell right?
 * Informing about one person, if even possible, doesn't mean you know all about every person in, or related to their organization, such as possible sponsors.
 * You want us to believe that a personal vendetta on Wikipedia is considered a just cause?
 * If I'm wrong, please direct us to where we can verify this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JackSparrow Ninja (talk • contribs) 18:44, 6 March 2007

Response by TSA to the accusation of his lies
'''Looks like this one can even go up to proven false statements. Thanks for pointing me to the NPD website. "NPD does not share your personal information with any other company or with individuals outside of our company."'''

''- It does not share your personal information. If I have the media outlet's name, you can ask if they are an associate. I both called and e-mailed them. If you'd like, I'll privately forward you their response to your e-mail box to prove you are lying, but we're not allowed to post it publicly because they have a confidentiality clause about disclosing it in public, but they said I could forward the response to you since you are with Game Legend.''

''- JackSparrow_Ninja has access to Game Legend's server because his NeoGAF account avatar says so. He also admitted to a NeoGAF member, who is an associate of mine and a moderator of that board, that JackSparrow_Ninja admitted he was a rep of Game Legend. Deny that.''

'''So basically "you have to prove LotL unreliable, but we don't have to prove it reliable". Also, funny that the only activity on Wikipedia you've ever done is defend LotL. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)'''

''- I know. It's the double standard with these two Land of the Legend guys. If I can't prove it, I lie. If they can't prove it, it's not. I love the logic going on here.''

'''Changing from a proven incorrect statement -it's gone from getting webmasters (plural) to one webmaster and the Nintendo booth- to an unverified statement, not backed up by the seeming relation between all webmasters included in this, doesn't really help you. Even if said, unrelevant yet unverified, statement is correct, it means you've lied in this statement to begin with.'''

''- Hey, spin doctor. Get around this. Did Martjin promise Lord-of-Shadow, aka Max Nichols, he could go to E3 under the Land of the Legend banner? Did Lord-of-Shadow get into E3 under the Land of the Legend banner? Did Land of the Legend respond to Goddess Rhinoa's, aka Lydia, calls because she was clueless about what was going on due to Land of the Legend's split from Hyrule.net? Did complications arise from her trying to get in initially under Land of the Legend's banner and because they weren't present on the first day she tried to get in? Answer those without beating around the bush, and you have your answer. Unferifiable? Want me to call up both to come post here and silence your skepticism?''

Accusation of LotL plagiarizing because they would not be able to receive Nintendo Power or EGM magazines, because they would not have American crewmembers.

''- How can you know the information if you do not get the publications first hand? BTW, one of YOUR OWN STAFF MEMBERS has since spoken with me, and told me nobody from Land of the Legend gets Nintendo Power or EGM and that you actually purposely wait for me to post anything and then copy it because there is nothing I can do about it legally since the info came from not The Hylia originally, but the magazines. I'll forward that e-mail to you as well Jack.''

''- NWR and The Hylia both published reports on the controls BEFORE Land of the Legend. NWR at the time was more REPUTABLE, so I used them. But I think we're about as reputable as NWR now, and we had it up before them. LotL WAS AT E3 2006 and yes, you guys could have written it up yourselves, but the INITIAL POSTING was a WORD-FOR-WORD copy. When Archive.org catches up or gets it, I'll happily show you the evidence.''

'''This kind of information is not available to anyone but the tax services and people who have autorization. I am very certain you are not able to look up such info. If you still are trying to stand by your statement, please show me the details on how you would obtain the financial info on say this Martin guy.'''

''- I had an associate file a criminal report on Martjin in Holland for intellectual property theft and was seeking damages, and my lawyer requested financial records from Game Legend and Land of the Legend. I am not allowed to even prove to you I got this, it's a violation of both US and Holland laws and would have jeopardized the case. But based on what was in that dossier, I felt so bad, I decided against any action and I never moved forward with actually taking civil action. Though maybe I should have had the authorities show up at his place of residence...maybe a good scare would get him to stop his childish acts and show I'm getting tired of their antics.''

''- Also, why are you removing my report on the content theft. In an ARTICLE ABOUT RELIABILITY, DISCUSSION OF INTERGRITY IS VERY RELEVANT. So please explain why you are hiding the facts? I have the original image LotL used, and simple tests anybody can conduct show how the image used by LotL was a cropped and enlarged image from The Hylia.''

''- Did Land of the Legend have permission to advertise this as a "guest article"? Did the writer submit it to Land of the Legend? I've inquired myself and am awaiting the response. --TSA 08:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)''

''- Please contact me on IM somehow...HylianTSA (AIM), HylianTSA (MSN - @hotmail.com) or let me know what you use. This really needs to be discussed on more private terms because this is getting out of hand and I want to talk with you. --TSA 08:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)''

GameLabo -monitor this issue
According to the initial poster at NeoGAF, very unreliable. Let's see what comes of this specific news item, and see if we can gain some more information about the background. JackSparrow Ninja 04:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm having an issue with a user who keeps adding sales and comments backed by VGChartz
I don't believe Wikipedia uses VGChartz for sales numbers, we use stuff like Media Create and NPD. In any case, a user continues to put it back despite my efforts which involved linking said user to what sources should be used, etc and he still edits it back in.

Is there a place that I can get in touch with administrators real easy? It's not even a dispute over 'facts', its misinformation being place back unto articles.--MrBubbles 19:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)