User talk:Jax MN/Archive 1

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List of Fraternities and Sororities at the University of Minnesota - Alpha Phi Omega
I'd like to work with you to fix the entry for Alpha Phi Omega in List of Fraternities and Sororities at the University of Minnesota. The Alpha Phi Omega which is a member of the PFA (and is the one linked to) was founded in 1925 (And as such couldn't be founded locally at UMN in 1902). However given that I have found at least 9 local Fraternities and sororities bearing the name Alpha Phi Omega (including one National Professional Beauty Parlor Fraternity/Sorority), I'd like to help put this apparently local group, and the National Fraternity each in its proper place. I presume that you are using Baird as a source, which edition? and any other info?Naraht (talk) 14:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Goes to bookshelf, pulls down 1920, 1923, 1968 and 1991 Baird's (Yes I own them. :) )'
 * I know what the entry for Alpha Phi Omega says at the beginning VII-2. However, a couple of points. If you look at the entry for University of Minnesota on II-115, there are *two* entries for Alpha Phi Omega, one for 1902 and one for 1942, no other school is doubled like that. Similarly there are two on page VII-2, one for Minnesota Alpha where *no* other chapters are named using state names and one for Gamma Psi near the end of 1942 which is in the normal chapter lettering (the fact it is near the end of 1940 is that Baird's Alphabetized within the year since they don't use day/month.
 * In addition the 1968 version of Baird's has no mention of such a chapter. *And* Alpha Tau Omega at University of Minnesota was founded in 1902. Alpha Tau Omega *does* use State/Letter combinations and while their chapter for U of MN is Minnesota Gamma Nu, I think that may be part of it. In addition, the University of Minnesota Archives shows no activity prior to 1938 http://special.lib.umn.edu/findaid/xml/uarc00306.xml and the University yearbook in 1943 shows them as forming in 1942 (http://umedia.lib.umn.edu/node/567865 click on page 172 on the left (which is page 168 in the books numbering)) and the National Fraternity lists their founding as 4/18/1942 (http://www.apo.org/Member/ChapterProfile/95) as to they in documents submitted to the school (http://www.studentservicesfees.umn.edu/historical/14-15_Applications/Student/Alpha%20Phi%20Omega%20application.pdf)
 * So even though the 1991 Baird's shows both 1902 and 1942, three other secondary sources don't show it (the 1968 Baird's, the school archives and the school yearbook) as well as two primary sources (National Fraternity and documents submitted to the school.Naraht (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you figured it out. Let's call this another Baird's error, for which I will make the edit.  I'll note the discrepancy in a footnote. Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 18:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No Problem. I'll keep this in mind if anyone edits the List of Alpha Phi Omega chapters (chronological) page. I'm an alumnus of Kappa chapter of Alpha Phi Omega at Carnegie-Mellon. I initiated in Fall of 1986.Naraht (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

List of Psi Omega chapters
On this page, you've got five different ref entries labelled "Delta Mu Chapter website, accessed 22 September 2014." but they all link to different sites. I think you need to fix the titles to the refs.Naraht (talk) 19:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Rookie mistake. I meant to change those labels.  Thanks for noticing it - they're correct now. Jax MN (talk) 22:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

What's left
I swear it would almost be easier on the List of Psi Omega chapters to list what dental schools they don't have chapters at. :)Naraht (talk) 15:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Order from Baird's
I've worked with Baird's enough to know that the default in most editions for listing chapters founded in the same year is *English* Alphabetical order. So if for a Fraternity, Alpha was founded in 1901 and Beta, Gamma and Delta were founded in 1902, Baird's will listed them in the order Alpha, Beta, Delta and then Gamma. This gives *no* proof that Gamma was founded after Delta and in general if a fraternity is using the Greek Letter Order (or close like Psi Omega), I'll expect it to go the other way.Naraht (talk) 15:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Source on O'Neill
Hey, I undid your revert on the source for K. O'Neill as E-D of FSPAC; the Today Show episode was the source for his title as he's not listed on the PAC's website. I didn't mean for it to seem I was trying to seed the article with salacious refs. I feel safe in saying we're probably ideologically symmetrical. BlueSalix (talk) 23:08, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

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Fraternity Pins.
I noticed that for Psi Omega, that you loaded the Pin image into the Crest entry in the Infobox. I proposed discussion about a separate entry on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities, I'd appreciate your input.Naraht (talk) 12:31, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

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Draft:Pi Lambda Sigma (sorority)
I think we may have overwritten each other, I'll try to avoid that...Naraht (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Me too, Naraht. I didn't realize you were still in the page.  It looks better now. Jax MN (talk) 19:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * NP. When I told Primefac that I felt that I had reached the end of the internet, I momentarily forgot there were things before the internet. :) While I'd love to add history between founding and merger, what sort of events would there be likely to be between the most important ones.?Naraht (talk) 19:37, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The fact that the Founders originally contemplated a non-sectarian sorority was interesting, and you've added symbolism, etc. The sorority that absorbed them has a JPG of their pin, which may be useful for readers.  I suspect daughters and granddaughters who may be doing genealogical research would be sniffing around this. And alumnae of the four chapters that received Pi Lambda Sigma at its demise. Jax MN (talk) 19:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The question of where the pin image should be is a completely separate issue. :) Agreed..Naraht (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Screamingly Funny or Sad take your pick
Naraht (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Size of Theta Phi Alpha just before started editing it: 10,712 bytes
 * Size of Draft:Pi Lambda Sigma (sorority) as of the most recent edit: 11,879 bytes
 * I am liking the Pi Lambda Sigma entry more and more. And the Theta Phi Alpha page isn't bad, it's just lots longer, as a thriving group. Meh. I'm not about to start culling and cutting. Jax MN (talk) 19:57, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So on a scale of 0-10 of support with 5 being meh, you were a 6, now you are an 8, I guess. :)
 * Naraht, nice work in collaborating on the Pi Lambda Sigma site. Should be ready to resubmit soon.  Jax MN (talk) 20:54, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * See comments on the talk page for the draft. I finished going through the relevant yearbooks for Quincy and Creighton, of which there obviously weren't many (5 or 6 for Quincy, 4 for Creighton). I'll be mailing a check to BU for copies of a few pages of what the Archivist there feels like are the most "text filled" pages there. Still find it so different between schools that have *every* yearbook on archive.org and those that won't even scan them for internal use.Naraht (talk) 20:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah - the University of Minnesota finally, finally put theirs on line. Nicely formatted, and searchable.  So, I use them quite a bit. Jax MN (talk) 21:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So any more ideas on Data Sources?Naraht (talk) 21:23, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You've hit on the usual suspects: Bairds, the succeeding organization's history, and collegiate yearbooks. Anything else I might find is ad hoc, perhaps from an obit, or random Google mention. Jax MN (talk) 01:08, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * My problem is that the Baird's that I own aren't from the main time period of activity, I've got the 1920, 1923, 1968 and 1991. If we could find a 1940 or a 1949... Also, do you know of anywhere we could get the Banta's?Naraht (talk) 01:55, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't found these online. The University of Minnesota's Wilson Library has a full set of all editions of Bairds.  But not digitized that I know of. Jax MN (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The ones after the 20s are still under copyright.Naraht (talk) 23:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Theta Phi Alpha
Two things. After all of your changes there are two entries in the text. Also, the cite web entries went to specific pages of the document, are you sure that combining them and losing that is worth it?Naraht (talk) 22:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I saw those and fixed them. Also, caught an error in the primary usage of that ref, where the page number of the first citation should have been removed from the body of the ref, and ported out to the  tag.  WP allows that tag to indicate multiple referenced pages in the same document. See Template:Rp.

Jax MN (talk) 05:44, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand how RP works, but with that, the book reference should be changed to remove all pieces that refer to a specific page and the main one still directs to page 60 both in the main link and the archive.Naraht (talk) 12:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Really? I thought I had fixed that, too.  I looked for it (referring to p.60).  I'll check later today. The page is looking better. Jax MN (talk) 12:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at the actual URL and archive url.Naraht (talk) 12:56, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Chimes
Was National, not now

http://honoraries.wvu.edu/chimesChimes Junior Honor Society for women was founded in 1918 at Ohio State University. In 1948, when Chimes became a national organization, the WVU women’s honorary Rhododendron became affiliated with the national organization of Chimes. Although the national organization later disbanded, some chapters (including WVU’s) decided to retain the name and symbols of Chimes.

Chimes opened to male membership in 1977. Naraht (talk) 16:44, 29 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks Naraht. I note that the Minnesota chapter formed in 1948, the same year of Chimes' move to form a national. This suggests it may have evolved from an earlier local at my school. I'll look into this via a yearbook search when I have some time. Jax MN (talk) 17:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Cool. 18:42, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Pi Sigma Epsilon
Am working on User:Naraht/Pi Sigma Epsilon.Naraht (talk) 18:42, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Moved to mainspace.Naraht (talk) 22:52, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
 * As to the template we ought to use for honor and professional societies, has there been any discussion about setting off the chapter list on a secondary page, versus incorporating it in the main organization page? Both styles have precedent.  Pages for smaller fraternities, with a dozen or less chapters will routinely show a table of chapters (in some format) on the main page.  But I don't know if the Fraternity and Sorority editors have set a rule for this. Your thoughts?  Jax MN (talk) 13:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any. You might as at the talk page on WP:FRAT. (and wait 6 months).
 * Giving some thought... I'd say that if all that exists is chapter name and school, I'd want to on the high side of 40 chapters (since that would be reasonable as a dotted list (which could be made 2 columns). If OTOH, date of chartering, region or anything other data was available, then a separate page makes sense. I'd say that Omega Phi Alpha is on (or over) the edge. I wouldn't object to someone splitting the chapters to a separate page (and possibly even conventions) and might do it myself one day. I'd also want the article without the chapter list to clearly not be a stub. Does that help?Naraht (talk) 14:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Epsilon Nu Tau
Well I've got a start on the *last* of the current PFA groups: Epsilon Nu Tau. Right now what I've got is at User:Naraht/Epsilon Nu Tau. I think I've got it over the level where the article is acceptable, but it still feels stubbish. (Next stop after that, Kappa Delta Epsilon)Naraht (talk) 18:25, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Xi Psi Phi
Is this Dental Fraternity on your near term todo list?Naraht (talk) 00:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking, but no. I'm really backed up with some work projects, and collegiate volunteering.  My plans to knock those remaining pages out have been put on hold.  Are you thinking of working on it? Jax MN (talk) 03:30, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not realizing you'd responded. I'm working on it now. (User:Naraht/Xi Psi Phi) Seemed odd to have 3 of the 4 done. At worst it will be the website and Baird's, though they do have a number of the fraternity magazines on books.google.Naraht (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Naraht, sorry for spelling your user name incorrectly. May I ask why you use that particular name? I see your real name from your Wiki bio page. Jax MN (talk) 16:07, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Johns Hopkins Society
Hello. I saw that you recently edited the List of defunct Johns Hopkins University societies page, and I was wondering if you by any chance had any more information about the Ess Society (or whatever it's real name is) and its existence on the campus. If this is too transparent of a place to discuss I'd be happy to email as well. Thanks. 211.197.11.5 (talk) 14:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, and thank you for the inquiry. Sadly, no, I do not have any further information about this group. Of course, the several anonymous editors that have lately attempted to add the Ess Society to the page have added a half dozen sentences about it, but this could be as much fiction as fact. I just do not know, nor do I have anything particularly against the society. Wikipedia's rules are quite clear regarding citation and attribution, so without any proof whatsoever, it is reasonable to assume that the Ess Society belong neither on the page of DEFUNCT nor ACTIVE organizations.  It is further a puzzle to me why they write as if it was an ongoing concern, as if they have first-hand knowledge, but are then not declaring it to be active, and therefore to be suitable for the active organization page. Writer, you may be somewhat interested in the linkage they claim to Skull and Bones, the secretive Yale institution.  While such clues may pique the interest of many of us who have fraternal and especially collegiate society backgrounds, in this case, these notes may simply be fiction, and an attempt to add notoriety via proxy. Jax MN (talk) 14:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Endeavour
Thanks for adding info about the Endeavour. Quite exciting, really.

Just a couple of pedantical points. She was actually commissioned into the service as His Majesty's Bark Endeavour, to avoid confusion with the existing HMS Endeavour. The use of the definite article "the" with the prefix HMB/HMS etc. is considered improper, as it results in an awkward phrasing if the abbreviation is given in full. (eg. "the His Majesty's Ship"). This is not a problem that arises for USN ships.

Many European navigators had discovered Australia, sometimes by running into it unexpectedly at night, like Pelsaert's ship Batavia in 1629, nearly a century and a half before Lieutenant Cook took a look. However, these earlier discoveries were of the western and northern coasts, usually by Netherlands vessels travelling to the Dutch East Indies (what is now Indonesia). They named the land New Holland and many places along these coasts bear Dutch names, such as Arnhem Land.

I've been aboard the Endeavour replica in Sydney. She is quite a small vessel, and it was a marvel of exploration that she was able to make such a significant journey. --Pete (talk) 21:29, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks Pete. I will look for this error, and fix it when I see it.  Jax MN (talk) 21:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Chi Tau
I appreciate the creation of the article and the move of the local. But the aftermath seems non-encyclopedic.Naraht (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably too dramatic. I'll take another stab at it. Thanks.  I figured you'd see it. By the way, are you working on an updated page to replace the National APIA Panhellenic group? Jax MN (talk) 17:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reminder. It probably should go under APIDA instead, I mostly need to find refs that show notability.Naraht (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Say Nahrat, do you have a reference list of all the collegiate yearbooks you use? or do you just Google for them?  They are such a great source of information. Jax MN (talk) 19:15, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

First three way.
Phi Alpha, the Social Work honorary joined the ACHS at some point very early this year. I've added to the ACHS page and added a page for them. That makes three "Phi Alpha"s: the Literary Society, the Jewish Social Greek that got folded eventually into ZBT and this group. Let me know if you have any suggestions.Naraht (talk) 18:51, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I see you are in the midst of work on the ACHS group. Nice catch.  In exploring I found a list of chapters and founding dates in Baird's, among fraternities that are no more. I could add these into a new section.  The logo in Baird's for the group is a poor scan. Better to use the crest on the ZΒT website. Jax MN (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Have fun. :)!!!!

Phi Alpha (Fraternity)
Beta chapter was at UMaryland Baltimore (which was the graduate medical, legal, dental etc.), Epsilon was at University of Maryland College Park. I managed to find a Phi Alpha Quarterly on books google that I could look at snippets on.Naraht (talk) 13:21, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose we now have to turn our attention to Phi Sigma Delta. Jax MN (talk) 19:12, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

List of Jewish Fraternities and Sororities
Where is the source that Hai Resh used the Hebrew "הֵא רֵישׁ"?Naraht (talk) 22:48, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I asked a Jewish friend of mine if my transliteration is correct. If he is in error, please make a correction. In a moment there will be a couple more. Jax MN (talk) 23:04, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Phi Lambda Sigma
I don't see anything about the interaction with Phi Lambda Sigma on the Phi Delta Chi History page that you referenced it to. (https://www.phideltachi.org/page/HistoryofPDC).Naraht (talk) 02:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You are right - it was on the PDC Timeline instead: https://www.phideltachi.org/page/PDCTimeline  I'll fix the reference. Jax MN (talk) 07:45, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Chi Alpha Sigma
Sorry for adding this to your User Page by mistake. An IP user added Chi Alpha Sigma to the list of Honor Societies. I did a quick news.google search and looks like enough to write the article (some are student newspapers, but a lot are University Athletic Department websites). Could you give a quick opinion on whether it looks notable? (The National page looks like it claims about 200 chapters, and the sources make that seem reasonable.Naraht (talk) 22:23, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks - it appears legitimate, go for it! There is always the risk that this is another of the scam sites, collecting user fees from unsuspecting grads. I think this one is clear.
 * I keep that running list of pages I'd like to develop or work on myself, but am afraid that business or my focus on existing pages keeps me occupied. Ugh.  Also, for your page, see John_Kopchick, where this person apparently was in a local with the name Chi Alpha Sigma at IUP, which became a chapter of Delta Tau Delta.
 * Also, when I first read this I thought the name was familiar. But no, nothing at any of the pages I curate.  The mind gets fuzzy...  I've been poring over all the old yearbooks for Minnesota, tracing predecessor groups and attempting to get any stragglers that I missed during page creation.  I paged through from 1921 to 1929 over the long weekend.  Jax MN (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Cool, saw the one on John Kopchick in searching for the string on Wikipedia, but different. BTW, I have identified at *least* 9 different groups that were called Alpha Phi Omega *other* than Alpha Phi Omega over the years. I'll let you know when it is done.Naraht (talk) 23:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Chi Alpha Sigma. Done unless I find something else useful. two refs, one to a very useful article from Rutgers, and one to the about page on the group website.Naraht (talk) 15:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology fraternities, sororities, and ILGs
Any suggestions on how to get references for List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology fraternities, sororities, and ILGs?
 * Typically you'd go to Baird's (which has a fine listing for MIT with founding dates of its chapters) and to the individual national pages. I put in a vote to keep this page, but wonder if it will be received better with a more system-wide perspective, and historical data.  --Not overtly rush oriented as it is now.  This article is subject to bloat, like the Dartmouth page and other Ivys. Graphics would help, and each of these should have annotations.  When I did the Minnesota Greek page I just ended up going down the rabbit hole for every open question and factoid I'd heard, searching for a citation.  Jax MN (talk) 23:29, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Sigma Delta Psi (Athletics)
For when we finish with MIT. and a few others.Naraht (talk) 04:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=Vo9IAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=%22Sigma+Delta+Psi%22+athletics+1912+hutchins&source=bl&ots=1GvdzAjTZC&sig=ACfU3U32ZA6al1TqEiCLBKjMfEFEcFde5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWha6OiZfqAhXdmHIEHcjtAykQ6AEwA3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Sigma%20Delta%20Psi%22%20athletics%201912%20hutchins&f=false
 * https://www.citadel.edu/root/sdp-home

Date format.
In a few recent articles including Delta Phi Delta, you have used a date format that looks like 25 December, 1999. For US Articles, I think that December 25, 1999 would be preferred. If not, then 25 December 1999. The comma is only used to separate the numerical day and year.Naraht (talk) 18:31, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no preference, but thought I was using a style preferred by Wikipedia when citing dates. --Someone had corrected one of my posts over a year ago, but as I recall, they were specifically talking about dates within references. I just read the style guide, which indeed says either:
 * "3 June 1890" or "June 3, 1890" are OK, but not "3 June, 1890" . --No comma necessary between the word of a month and a year.
 * As these are American institutions, in body text I'll use "June 3. 1890" and in references (bowing to what I think was a standardization request) I'll use "3 June 1890" . Reasonable? Jax MN (talk) 18:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think June 3, 1890 is better than June 3. 1890 (comma vs. period) OTOH, I'm ok with the 3 June 1890 for refs.Naraht (talk) 22:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That period was a typo.  Jax MN (talk) 00:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Adding Professional groups...
If you add a group (Alpha Tau Sigma, Alpha Epsilon Iota) that includes Template:Professional_fraternities, please add them to the template in the Independent group at the bottom.Naraht (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I am reviewing some of my recent pages, and will add them to Professional fraternities and sororities. Also, if active, I'll find a place for them on the template below. What do you do about dormant groups, as to the template?  Jax MN (talk) 00:31, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Alpha Iota
Possible sources: Naraht (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
 * http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/g/alphaiota_r.html (that is their ritual, I generally don't reference the ritual, instead, I use it to narrow down public information about the group elsewhere, like the flower and colors and then use that.
 * https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/vjeb19/current, lots of entries for chapters and conventions under there, not sure a direct search can be done rather than one just on tandfonline.
 * I knew about that first source, and similarly, do not reference it out of respect to these societies. Thanks though, and thanks for the second source. This was an interesting project, as Alpha Iota was neither in Baird's nor on Wikipedia.  Their national website suggests to me that they only have one active chapter; I could be wrong on that, but the way the website frames it they are still talking about having chapters "on leading universities internationally..." It's difficult for an organization to face its failing.  I think they began with Business schools (secretarial and stenography) for women, and junior colleges, but could never make the abrupt transition to dump those in favor of full universities, which would let them to join the NPC.  --Dunno if they tried.  They were a creation of an earlier era and a product of their times. Jax MN (talk) 21:05, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of Delta Pi for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Delta Pi is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Delta Pi& until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. signed,Rosguill talk 21:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

"Massachusetts Agricultural Experiment Station" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Massachusetts Agricultural Experiment Station. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 22 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed,Rosguill talk 17:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Pi Delta Nu
Managed to get to the information on Pi Delta Nu in the 1935 Baird's through creative searches to get past the snippets. Let me know what you think. The group had 5 chapters as of 1935 and I have listed them. Apparently the group was listed in no later Baird's, though there appears to be a single mention in the 1940 as an organization at U of Missouri.

I also moved Alpha Tau Sigma and Alpha Epsilon Iota to the letters without Medical. No disambiguation is needed as long as there is only one group by that name on Wikipedia.Naraht (talk) 21:26, 31 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Good catch. I did a little cleanup, and added a second color swatch. Jax MN (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Epsilon Sigma Iota...
Might be enough...

Naraht (talk) 02:59, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=LHLySACMxdcC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=%22howard+university%22+%22epsilon+sigma+iota%22+1921&source=bl&ots=UOGfW2arJi&sig=ACfU3U0DBLu5drTRX5MGVvGvdtZHnv70uQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_3evhr-XsAhVipXIEHQfiCAI4ChDoATAPegQIAxAC#v=onepage&q=%22howard%20university%22%20%22epsilon%20sigma%20iota%22%201921&f=false
 * https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1981/04/17/ollie-cooper-94-dies/1401dd75-342c-4e4a-870a-b2f67224e2ef/
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=1lOIjQUG4aoC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=%22howard+university%22+%22epsilon+sigma+iota%22+1921&source=bl&ots=QGI22YVrHb&sig=ACfU3U0t6V_zS7pR9QD9FhxNSmdNOcCmpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDm7L8sOXsAhVtoXIEHViIC8Q4ChDoATAEegQIAhAC#v=onepage&q=%22howard%20university%22%20%22epsilon%20sigma%20iota%22%201921&f=false
 * And of course http://law.howard.edu/content/epsilon-sigma-iota for things where a primary source would work.
 * and would get linked from Frankie Muse Freeman

Ceres...
I *think* there was an article for them which was deleted, but I don't remember what the dab term was for it. :(Naraht (talk) 22:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It appears to be Ceres (women's fraternity). I hope we can find more than we did 6 years ago.Naraht (talk) 22:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * All I have so far is what I found in Baird's 20th. (I have the 19th and 20th on my bookshelf, and access online to the editions prior to the copyright cutoff.)  Perhaps FarmHouse will have information on them, as they supported its founding. Jax MN (talk) 23:23, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I forgot it was in the 20th Edition. Sometimes I think that we'd have better chance of keeping an article based on only 6 chapters in a sorority if they'd gone completely inactive sometime in the 1930s. :( I sent email to some of their leaders to try to get a current chapter list and any news coverage. Also some mentions and info on the FarmHouse site. Note, at least as of 2010 (Their 25th as covered in the FH magazine http://farmhouse.org/foundation/documents/2010%20Pearls%20&%20Rubies%20-%20Spring.pdf)
 * Active (7):Alberta, Illinois State, Kentucky, NC State, SD State, Western KY, Wisc - Platteville
 * Inactive(7): Cal Poly Pomona, Cal State Fresno, Colorado State, Montana State, North Dakota State, New Mexico State, Washington State.

Still would like more Secondary references...Naraht (talk) 08:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Creating
I'm going to try to get started at Draft:Ceres (women's fraternity) on Monday morning unless you have a better place. I think that's probably the best dab term. We've got probably 9 or 10 places that would link to it.Naraht (talk) 02:00, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. I hadn't started on that one yet. Next for me is to revise the Order of the Coif. Jax MN (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

U of Georgia
I'd use List of fraternities and sororities at the University of Alabama as a guide. Create a redirect to the section on greek life and then add the redirect to the category.Naraht (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Got it.  I attempted an improved organization of the page, WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Watchlist. Next is to review and add links that are missing.  Jax MN (talk) 18:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And while the List is a redirect, don't have it as a Main redirecting it back... (I've removed them in both UofA and UofGa)Naraht (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have to close the editing comment with a "-->" ?  Jax MN (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Figured it out. Just a misplaced carriage return. Jax MN (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Addition of ACHS template.
The ACHS template, unlike the Professional Fraternity template is only for those organizations which are or have been part of the ACHS. It doesn't seem any more appropriate than adding an NPC template to a social sorority which has never belong to it. Not sure if we should create a more generalized Honor society template containing those that have never belong as well.Naraht (talk) 13:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I saw the discrepancy between that and the Professional Fraternity template... Got it.  Do you want to tackle this?  There are a ton of these organizations that have not been part of the tighter ACHS system...  But would benefit from adjacency when someone is searching for an old group.


 * Meanwhile, if you want to remove it from that page where I added it, no problem. I cannot recall which one it was.


 * By the way, you may have noticed that for several days I've been working on the F&S project watchlist, adding many chapters, reformatting and creating sections. Out of curiosity I looked to see what the average daily page views are, hoping for a number in the hundreds. Sadly, on many days there are zero views.  Once this is done I'm going to explore improvements to the project page that call out more prominantly the watch list, daily changes and AfDs that impact these pages. Jax MN (talk) 17:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I did remove it. Yeah, I think renaming the template to be broader and including non-ACHS. I'll probably make a draft template. And I thought the watch list was automatically generated by what was in the article talk pages...Naraht (talk) 18:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

List of Gamma Sigma Sigma chapters
Just letting you know, I'm working on List of Gamma Sigma Sigma chapters.Naraht (talk) 18:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. On that new page, make sure to Wikilink the intro sentence back to the main article about the group.  Jax MN (talk) 19:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of Delta Epsilon (fraternity) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Delta Epsilon (fraternity) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Delta Epsilon (fraternity) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.  Onel 5969  TT me 23:08, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello Onel5969. In your first comment, from a few hours ago, the template text said this:  "You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page." (see above)  Thus, THIS is why I deleted your AfD notice.  I did what was requested: provided edits to the article itself, but more importantly, to its Talk page, noting rationale.  It seems that was what this level of AfD required.  Are you still insistent on putting it up for a vote?  Jax MN (talk) 23:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

colors but not color box
I thought the following query might be useful to you.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%3Ahastemplate%3A%22Infobox+fraternity%22+insource%3A%2F%5C%7C+%2Acolors%2A%3D+%2A%5B%5E%5C%7C%5C%7D%5D%2F+-insource%3A%2F%5BCc%5Dolor+box%2F&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&ns100=1&ns101=1&ns108=1&ns109=1&ns118=1&ns119=1&ns446=1&ns447=1&ns710=1&ns711=1&ns828=1&ns829=1

Naraht (talk)

Proposed deletion of Delta Beta Phi


The article Delta Beta Phi has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "No indication of notability. Fails WP:GNG."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Onel 5969  TT me 23:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Delta Beta Phi for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Delta Beta Phi is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Delta Beta Phi until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.  Onel 5969  TT me 02:02, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Eta Sigma Gamma
I'm going to try to copy the complete chapter list that they have on the ESG website over... I can copy what's on their site to Excel, add what we've got and go from there. One difference is that I expect the dates of inactivity to be in the table, not in notes. I'll copy over all of the other information there that is relevant, but not the chapter websites. (Chapter websites fails EL badly, unless they are direct refs for something like month/day of chartering. I'll try to do that either Monday or Tuesday.Naraht (talk) 03:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Also, while the IP address maybe a AFDSOCK, I doubt it is of the AFD proposer. I've worked with him on things before, and frankly his AFD proposal was less obnoxious than some of the others.Naraht (talk) 03:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

List of Alpha Sigma Alpha chapters.
Mary Baldwin University in Staunton is still an active college. I'm unclear why the entry is unlinked with a school defunct note.Naraht (talk) 10:29, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I fixed it. Jax MN (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Sigma Chi
Thanx for continuing to watch. The 2008 event should definitely be slimmed down, but that google docs article probably has enough links for an article about the brother who died. I went looking for other cases of hazing deaths for national fraternities and none of those went beyond about 5 sentences so that's about as much as I'd want in the Sigma Chi article, especially without proof.Naraht (talk) 12:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. Again, thank you for removing it. This item may benefit from some editors coaching on the Talk page, if the OP persists on restoring it. The original post was written in non-encyclopaedic language: bloated, emotional and unsourced.  To allow that lengthy paragraph on a summary about Sigma Chi national was woefully out of WP:PROPORTION, and clearly ran afoul of WP:NOR Jax MN (talk) 15:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * BTW, it is back, I cleaned up the rest, but getting this fixed considering the additional sources in the google doc that I copied to the talk page is going to be more complicated.Naraht (talk) 15:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you
User:Jax MN  I thank you too. Thank you for your appreciation of my edits of the City College entry. I thought some context was needed. Iss246 (talk) 21:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Xi Sigma Pi
I see you created most of the article on Xi Sigma Pi and the list of chapters. I found out what happened to Iota. The state of Pennsylvania merged the Forestry Program at the Penn State Forest Academy (which is now used as the campus of Penn State Mont Alto) with the program at Penn State. http://students.washington.edu/xsp/history/ and http://montalto.psu.edu/Information/ourhist.htm .Naraht (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the nudge
I appreciate the reminder to actually vote on the matter of National APIDA Panhellenic Association's AfD. It's been a few year since I've done much more than minor edits and largely forgot the process. Thanks also for you help on bringing the article a bit more up to code. --Littledrummrboy (talk) 16:22, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Order Alphabetically?
Can you please point to where this has been listed in the Project and/or any discussion?Naraht (talk) 18:00, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, you saw the edits on the article Fraternities and sororities in Canada. I cannot reference a specific discussion on this.  However, I am following precedent from other articles.
 * If you want to go in another direction, I don't have a vested interest in this other than a desire not to have to re-do many previous pages. I would have no problem using Greek letter order, but I am aware that as an English language page, those who haven't learned the Greek alphabet by rote may be put off by Omega coming at the end of the list, etc.
 * The other problem with the aforementioned page is that the previous order was a mishmash: ΖΒΤ was listed twice in error, and no alphabetization or structure was followed. I didn't think my edits to the order would be controversial. Jax MN (talk) 19:56, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The greek letter ordering occurs a lot naturally on chapter list pages. The problem with that of course, is where FarmHouse goes (After Epsilon like DiGamma, with Phi or at the end.) I'd prefer if we actually *had* a discussion on the project page about it. The other question is in the case where it is greek without the english words (like in the template) should *that* be in Greek Letter Order?Naraht (talk) 01:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

File:Frank M. Totten, Chase Manhattan Bank.jpg.png listed for discussion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Frank M. Totten, Chase Manhattan Bank.jpg.png, has been listed at Files for discussion. Please see the to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 17:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Kappa Omicron Nu
Could you take a look at the infobox that I created for Kappa Omicron Nu and make any changes that you think would make it cleaner.Naraht (talk) 20:55, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , done. I added a second affiliation, as predecessor group Omicron Nu had earlier been a member of the PFA.  Perhaps that should only be noted on the Omicron Nu page. Jax MN (talk) 00:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

National APIDA Panhellenic Association
I've been working with "Bryan Dosono, PhD, Director of Research and Development National APIDA Panhellenic Association". He has sent me some wonderful sources in regards to membership and the change in name. I've added some of them with references. He'd like to see something in the table of membership indicating if they were members at each of the name changes/organizations. He suggested things like # and § in the notes to indicate that a group was a member at each point. Any ideas?Naraht (talk) 14:05, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, he has given references for some of the groups that are redlinked, Chi Sigma Tau and Kappa Pi Beta.Naraht (talk) 14:05, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I met Bryan on a conference call with various historians and archivists that Fran put together. This led to some collaboration early this year that allowed us to win the battle to keep the NAPA page from deletion.
 * I will make some improvements to the table - send me the notes if you have them, regarding when specific groups were members of which organization. As to the two or three redlinked chapters I'd suggest we start with content from the deleted page and seen if that provides anything useful.  I'm on a couple of pressing work deadlines for the next month or two, and may have to limit my editing to a weekend pastime, or maybe an hour in the evenings. Jax MN (talk) 15:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Chi Beta Phi and Phi Alpha Delta
restarted Chi Beta Phi and found a source for the chapters and the lawyers they were named from in Phi Alpha Delta, copied the relevant text to User:Naraht/Phi Alpha Delta chapters, just need to put it in a different format...

Phi Sigma Chi
Hello, JaxMN,

I saw your request at WP:REFUND. I see that you are an experienced editor and maybe I'm not telling you anything new, but one way to overcome page protection or an AFD deletion decision is to Draft an article and submit it to WP:AFC. Getting approval of an AFC reviewer can be a way to overcome an article title that is frozen or has been tarnished by attempts in the past to write inappropriate articles under that title. Good luck! Liz Read! Talk! 06:48, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I tried that and was told in a secondary thread, in turn, that that wasn't the place for submitting a new REDIRECT. So I followed the new instructions and await an approval.  So tedious. Jax MN (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Phi Sigma Chi (August 29)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by AngusWOOF was:

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 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Phi Sigma Chi and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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AngusW🐶🐶F ( bark  •  sniff ) 14:18, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Talk:Phi Sigma Chi (August 29)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Dan arndt was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Talk:Phi Sigma Chi and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:Talk:Phi Sigma Chi, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "Db-g7" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
 * If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Talk:Phi_Sigma_Chi Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dan_arndt&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Talk:Phi_Sigma_Chi reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Dan arndt (talk) 14:25, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Talkback: you've got messages!
Qwerfjkl talk

Phi Sigma Chi
The bot already cleared the request, but I've unprotected the page. Thanks for your patience. OhNo itsJamie Talk 23:49, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

November 2021
Your edit to Chi Beta Phi has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Copying text from other sources for more information. — Diannaa (talk) 12:43, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

LDS fraternity/sorority pins
https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-18-no-3-2017/seminary-institute-recognition-pins

has for Delta Phi Kappa, Sigma Gamma Chi and Lambda Delta Sigma.Naraht (talk) 13:28, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I've added the four images on the page to those three articles.  Jax MN (talk) 18:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Clovia at UMN
https://4-hhistorypreservation.com/History/Clovia/ and https://web.archive.org/web/20140306142126/http://www.betaofclovia.org/ Naraht (talk) 05:09, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This group is close to home, from my own school. At some point I will use these references to write an article for Clovia. Thank you.  Jax MN (talk) 17:00, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Page created. Thanks again. Jax MN (talk) 02:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Ceres
You've got it listed on your todo, but I think I've done it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(women%27s_fraternity). It is in the dab page, just down near the bottom.Naraht (talk) 15:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , thanks for your messages. I will make a chapter list for Ceres shortly, and cross that off the list.  Clearly, you've done a lot of work to create and improve that page.  My inclusion on my to do list was out-of-date. I will also respond to the other two messages after I have a chance to review.  All the best to you, Ralph.  I'm off to a holiday lunch with some lodge brothers.  -Tom
 * Randolph, not Ralph. :) and good luck on a better chapter list, is that in the U of Illinois site that is the successor to Baird's?
 * Randolph. So sorry.  And yes, the Ceres chapter list is kept by the Illinois archive. My plan was to create a table, using your info from Baird's and the new archive list. Jax MN (talk) 22:21, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Chapter table is done. Jax MN (talk) 02:51, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I wrote to Ceres' Exec Dir. asking Trina to confirm the page detail, update missing dates and the colony list. Jax MN (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Also on your todo
You mention a category for the legal groups. Is this handled at Category:Professional_legal_fraternities_and_sororities_in_the_United_States?

Also, we may want to see if it makes sense to have a super cat for Category:Professional_legal_fraternities_and_sororities_in_the_United_States and Category:Legal fraternities and sororities in the Philippines.Naraht (talk) 15:54, 24 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, that category should work. When I wrote that To Do note I had not found that particular category.  Probably wrote that a number of years ago, before my familiarity with categories grew. About it, the only question I have is what we ought to do with Phi Delta Phi, which only in 2012 switched from being a professional society into an honor society.  Ought they be listed on the professional law cat? I think so, even while their national description has recently changed...  They still have chapter houses, scattered.


 * As to the super-cat, if it solves a problem, go for it. I'm still skeptical of many of these Philippine groups, the majority of which are ill-cited.  Their articles are rife with descriptions of so much violence and gang activity. For some, the name "fraternity" seems merely a label of convenience or a translation error, and really ought to be "Gang".  Am I reading this incorrectly?  I frankly have stayed away from editing those pages, in favor of spending my time on what I know, which is the US domestic groups.
 * If they have chapter houses, IMO, double list them.
 * I've more or less assigned myself as gatekeeper for the Philippine groups. I have a decent feeling for who is notable. Firstly, there is functionally no difference between the *general* groups and the *service* groups. The only groups that really should be grouped separately are specialty groups in Law, Medicine and Engineering (and a few other fields). (A *few* groups of honoraries exist) Also, there are a few schools whose reputation is *far* beyond others, both generally and in the specialty areas. A Law Fraternity that only has one campus may be notable if it is at one of the Nationally known law schools. (And may have had a dozen alumni on the Philippine Supreme Court). Gangs, no. A history of Hazing that makes the NPHC fraternities look like a cakewalk to pledge, absolutely. And fights among fraternities that had led to deaths.


 * The worst thing in terms of wikipedia is that there are *no* national umbrella groups. Even one with the weakest characteristics of the NIC, ACHS and PFA would be a *start*. *Something* to say that Sigma Rho and Alpha Phi Omega are older and established, relative to rando group that started among high school friends in Mindanao 6 year ago. And as far as I can tell, of the National groups, only Alpha Phi Omega has what we would consider a stable national website on their own domain. (which would be standard among *all* of the NPC and NPHC and most of the NIC). And a *large* number of the groups are *quite* open as to why those letters were chosen, something that is rare outside the honoraries in the US.


 * There are a few good places to get references, sunstar isn't bad and some of the other national media outlets. But as in the US, the best way to get national media attention is to kill a pledge. :( Naraht (talk) 17:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 13
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited List of fraternities and sororities at the University of Minnesota, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Hell week.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 05:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Groove Phi Groove
I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this deletion discussion? –– FormalDude  talk  15:38, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for alerting me, . I sympathize with the OP's critique that this article is dependent on self references.  This is, however, a problem that affects many Greek Letter Organizations and similar groups that normally operate with little media notice. There simply is not much media attention paid to them, especially in the absence of misbehavior.  Groove Phi Groove has even more difficulty because it is non-collegiate, without the benefit of campus portals and campus newspaper publicity.  For me, this impacts how I adjudge notability for such groups.  I am more likely to support the page because I know how little these groups are publicized as a baseline matter, where smaller clues must suffice. Again, thank you for alerting me that there was an ongoing AFD discussion.  Jax MN (talk) 19:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem, thank you for sharing your insight! –– FormalDude  talk  22:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Tau Beta Delta
Something sort of odd to me. I looked at List of Pi Lambda Phi chapters. I don't see any chapters with a founding date of 1941. The only thing that I can think of is that they are listing the Tau Beta Delta founding as the founding of the Pi Lambda Phi chapter. That's fine, but will make matching things up a little wierder.Naraht (talk) 18:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Expert wannabe
Why TF [are] you putting 3 chapters in Alpha Kappa Rho[?] We [have] 10 chapters in my city alone and here in Canada we also have 10 chapters. You want some proof, I can send it to you you think you know more than us true blooded skeptrons. 65.93.214.211 (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello Anon. If Alpha Kappa Rho was as well-established as you say, it would have an actual website.  It would also be profiled in various independent journals, newspapers, books and magazines showing that it had more than the three chapters I could find.  Once these simple examples indicating notability are produced, then it would be appropriate to show these as citations here on Wikipedia.  Until then, these are merely unsupported assertions.  You may claim it; you may want it to be, but without a factual basis, the claim of "ten chapters in my city alone" or "Thousands of chapters" (as had previously been noted in the infobox) has no place here.  You might wish to take this discussion to the Talk page for Alpha Kappa Rho to discuss.  If so, you might also want to make yourself an actual editor account, which the rest of us may take more seriously.  Jax MN (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Responding with relatively long response at Talk:Alpha Kappa Rho.Naraht (talk) 21:28, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll look forward to reading anything posted to the Talk page discussion. As an aside, note too there isn't even a main office nor mailing address for the fraternity. I'll be away from my PC for some hours, if I don't see this right away.  Jax MN (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

AFD for chapter list
Articles for deletion/List of Lambda Upsilon Lambda chapters which actually has decent refs from the national website.

Orphaned non-free image File:The crest of Alpha Nu Omega.png
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Kappa Theta Epsilon
Add that group to one with no appropriate non-primary sources. Neither link that isn't to the Kappa Theta Epsilon website mentioned Kappa Theta Epsilon. The fact is that even if a group has 15-20 chapters and the only mentions of them are on school websites that they exist (perhaps with a description provided by the chapter), that doesn't meet that overall criteria for Wikipedia. And I'm *really* not sure the degree to which the Wikiproject can extend notability beyond that....Naraht (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, I'm at a conference until late Saturday, with limited bandwidth. I'm not quite sure what you meant here. Assuming this was an FYI for me, that group wasn't a great fit into any of the categories, as the are niche and decidedly non-collegiate (from what I recall).  So my fallback is to say we ought to track their name and 1-line description on the Watchlist, maybe on a category list, but they may not qualify for an article.
 * But...
 * Sadly, some will defend them, claiming bias if the article is PRODed. Thus I didn't tag it for AfD. Choosing other battles. Jax MN (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that Kappa Theta Epsilon probably *should* be deleted unless WP:FRAT sets (can it?) notability rules that are looser than what is in WP:ORG and I'm not even sure it would qualify *then*.Naraht (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The admins not normally associated with WP:FRAT sometimes question notability - as with the most recent flurry of AfDs. I had a cordial exchange with Star Mississippi on this, skeptical at first but (she?) seemed to appreciate the methodology I explained, showing the notability rules linked off our Project page. I doubt we can or ought to loosen rules beyond that clarification, but Baird's alone should suffice.  No need for three scholarly journals, in other words. This still doesn't help the tertiary GLOs with their articles.
 * BTW, there are a couple of PRODs still out there, getting ripe without much activity or "keep" votes.

Alpha Omega chapters
The bad news is that their chapter ordering is *really* confusing, the good news is that I have an idea for how confusing from https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=ien.35558005451683&view=1up&seq=8&skin=2021. (Which I trust more than Baird's which at least as of 1976 just gave up and put them in Alphabetical order (ish)
 * , nice catch. Were you starting to add the list to the page? I can clean up. Jax MN (talk) 00:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hadn't had the chance. And the 1976 Baird's can handle from there to Beta Delta.Naraht (talk) 04:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I have to read through the individual chapter notes from the 1932 history to determine which were formed first, to trace a couple of re-namings and mergers. Real life is busy, so I may not get to this quickly. Jax MN (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Link for quick access Alpha Omega (fraternity)

Sigh
Alpha Phi Omega has more than 700 chapters, and *two* are significantly out of order by chartering date (TCU about 10 years, Ferrum about 30 years) How did Alpha Omega get *this* weird.Naraht (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's so odd. Even their 1932 history shows the chapters out of sequence. One would think that in that resource, they'd veer toward a system.  Any system. Jax MN (talk) 15:29, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , let me know if I can continue on the table list. I have some time. Jax MN (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , go ahead. I'll make notes and fold them in later. Let me know if you think the Alpha Zeta Gamma section needs to be updated.Naraht (talk) 15:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I wrapped up the table for now. Please go ahead with any edits. Jax MN (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note, I did a little cleanup on the Alpha Zeta Gamma section. Also, added "See also" for all four of the dental fraternities.  Come to think of it, I should add any honor societies to that grouping. Jax MN (talk) 19:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Started the bare bones of Omicron Kappa Upsilon. Got Baird's 20th and it is in there. Chapter order seems *slightly* more standard. Alpha to Omega, Alpha Alpha to Omega Omega and then Alpha Beta, Beta Gamma, Gamma Delta, etc..Naraht (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * And then apparently went back to fill in the chapters starting with Beta (sigh).Naraht (talk) 01:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Not that many left...
Without pages in List_of_fraternities_and_sororities_at_the_University_of_Minnesota
 * Thanks for noticing...! That page was a labor of love, and took way too long to produce.  (550 references.  Good Lord.) But on the bright side, had I been a Michigan or Illinois grad, the list may have been another 50% longer. Thank you for jumping on the Omicron Kappa Upsilon page. Jax MN (talk) 13:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Kappa Kappa Kappa
Not sure why you reverted it. The reference is absolutely correct and goes to the school newspaper, the Dartmouth, which is likely about the best possible source. I'll hold off on re-adding it until you respond.Naraht (talk) 12:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I inadvertently reverted it along with several immediately occurring changes that were clearly vandalism. I will correct my error, as that is what it was.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention. My keyboard is still wonky, and I have to cut and paste "e" and others.  Arggg.  Jax MN (talk) 14:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Done. Should you wish to move the article and adjust the title, go for it. Jax MN (talk) 14:22, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * They even changed their website (and redirect the old URL!) and logo https://kappapikappa.org/gallery/kappa_pi_kappa_bottom-point-triangle-ts1652929148.jpg . I'll do the move, I don't consider it controversial, and I'll keep the redirect. And between the University newspaper article and the information on their (new) website. I'm not sure Kappa Pi Kappa could have made this much smoother for us. :) Entry at Dartmouth_College_Greek_organizations probably should be updated as well.Naraht (talk) 15:12, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Sigma Phi Alpha
Started Sigma Phi Alpha. It is in the most recent Baird's (though under Recognition Societies, which I'm willing to give the group the benefit of the doubt that they are an honor society). Chapter list from there is nuts as it goes Alpha to Omega, Alpha Alpha to Alpha Omega, Alpha Alpha Alpha to Alpha Omega and then starts with the Alpha Alpha Alpha Alpha group. Didn't find any four letter chapters in the list of the website, but a number of those look like they are in the form QQR like Chi Chi Delta. Picking out a full chapter list is going to be *fun*.

Groove Phi Groove
If you aren't watching it, please do so. It appears we have at least two people from the GPhiG board trying to alter the article.Naraht (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I hadn't seen this set of back-and-forth edits. Jax MN (talk) 21:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Beta Sigma Omicron...
We *so* had an edit clash. I ended up moving my version to User:Naraht/BSO, I'll copy in my changes later. :)Naraht (talk) 20:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I noticed that. Ugh.  Sorry.  I'd worked on the page after seeing a couple of yours, then when I tried to save it noted the conflict.  I let it sit for several hours until I'd seen you had made no further changes, and only then added my contributions to the article.  So, so sorry.  I've added all I could find from the Archive.  There are a few oddities: I don't know the outcome of the Pittsburg chapter, which ends as Beta Sigma Omega in 1964, making it a potential for either ZTA or APhi.  But neither of these line up with new chapters at that school, at this time.  Perhaps a merger into an existing chapter?  Also, the Archive notes a couple of instances where a chapter went local, but the footnotes for those, namely #6 and #7 on the BSO page at Bairds, aren't found in the body text.  Looks like a typo there. I found one chapter that eventually went to Chi Omega, and noted it as such. I'm done with whatever I was doing, if you want to work on the main article.  Jax MN (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, I could only find 61 chapters, not 63. Dunno where that larger number came from.  An earlier Baird's?  Jax MN (talk) 22:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * (University of Pittsburgh or Pittsburg State in Kansas?) I'm glad you added from the Bairds site. Don't know about 63. You added it. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beta_Sigma_Omicron&diff=prev&oldid=975114853 . Not sure I'll be able to get mine tonight, but probably tomorrow morning.Naraht (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The Baird's citation was written as Pittsburgh, so it was clearly the school in PA. I see that I inserted (or transcribed) the number 63.  Baird's 20th says 61, and I don't know where I got the larger number.  The earlier edit history has no trace of it.  Typo?  I'll fix that, and will create a chapter table later. Jax MN (talk) 02:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, I'm not sure where the 13 active at the convention. The source from the Cross & Crescent indicates that there were 15 active as of the 1963/1964 Bairds and one specific one had been lost. I'll put anything that I find in the near term into one in my userspace. I do believe that, where we can find it, that having that (example) Tau Upsilon chapter of Beta Sigma Omicron became Mu Mu chapter of Zeta Tau Alpha is appropriate to include in the article. BTW, for U of Pittsburgh. (https://digital.library.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735062163856/viewer#page/2/mode/2up) March 18, 1964 issue of the Pitt News. "Sigma Sigma Sigma and Beta Sigma Omicron will no longer be in existence on the University Campus next year".
 * Good catch. I'll hold off on further work (table creation) in case you have anything else to merge over from your sandbox. I haven't done a detailed comparison, but it appears that the mainspace article now is as advanced as can be, prior to forming it into a table. Rather than the small section of four chapters at the end, coming from Pi Sigma Gamma, I think that can be handled in references and in the body text.  The body text for Pi Sigma Gamma on the BSO article ought to be expanded.  (also, following the table syntax that we've developed, I'll add an outcome table, noting where each of these went, at dissolution.) I remain unclear about whether each of these PSG chapters became a chapter of BSO, or whether they were absorbed, when I note the resultant founding dates listed by Baird's. One errant footnote remains in Baird's that I haven't traced back to the chapter to which it was intended to apply, namely #7:  "Became Alpha Beta Nu [local], then Phi Sigma Sigma."  The "Nu" might be a hint.  Also, Phi Sigma Sigma records may provide info.  I haven't looked yet. Jax MN (talk) 14:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Found it. The Waynesburg chapter devolved into Alpha Beta Nu.  I just updated its reference on the BSO page. Jax MN (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry... BSO
Sorry I haven't worked on BSO, I haven't forgotten it. Had some people ask me to work on the entries for my own fraternity Alpha Phi Omega since the change of the organizational structure.Naraht (talk) 20:00, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries. I'm going to do more with the table today. It's a busy time. Jax MN (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I've got to deal with the last 6 years of changes to List of Alpha Phi Omega chapters.Naraht (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Notes vs. References
I've thought of leaving this comment a *number* of times, but just now seemed the right time. I *really* think the articles we work on would benefit from a splitting of explanatory notes and references as talked about in Citing_sources. I know it isn't required, but I think things would work better.Naraht (talk) 13:59, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Heh. I agree with you.  You sent me an example a couple of years ago, and out of habit I just haven't switched to that style.  We've (I've) so many to adjust.  On the bright side, doing so will increase my edit count substantially. I'll read the link you sent.  Thanks. Jax MN (talk) 15:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * , I tested this out on the Deke list. Please review. If needed, the EFT template allows for footnotes against those notes themselves. I haven't settled on a letter format, and am using lower case as the default.  You or other project participants may have thoughts on this, relative to our standard template. Jax MN (talk) 16:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I like the lower case here. And if you really want to increase your edit count, find a commonly used infobox with a depreciated parameter and let AutoWikiBrowser work on it. 2500 edits in a couple of weeks is possible. :) And I'm treating the 175th anniversary fraternity magazine as the gold source here. Let's face it, most of this is primary sources anyway, so let's go with the one that the fraternity uses today. :)Naraht (talk) 16:43, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

St Anthony Hall
Since you were so helpful when I started to fix this page and the related list, you are the perfect person for advice. I added info found in a campus newspaper article about the Tau symbol and the fraternity. Someone, a member I assume, deleted that info on June 23, 2022 with the note "deleting information that has been disclosed." Do we honor the wishes of members for secrecy, or is this person out of line in removing cited content? Thanks in advance for you help. Rublamb (talk) 21:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's how I handle these situations: I do not rush to "expose" esoteric or private fraternal information.  See, there can be hundreds of bona fide available references for some of these groups, offering far more detail than we should ever include in a summary article.  I'd ask, "Does the inclusion of this point add value to understanding the organization as a whole?"  Good editors toss out unnecessary references all the time.  Many of the available references are duplicative, or concern tiny points of detail, or individual chapter facts - none of these would typically meet a fair understanding of what is "encyclopedic".  Over the years I've seen many exposures of fraternal secrets, and random editors who seek to include them as if doing so adds value.  I cannot think of a circumstance though where there is definitive value in citing such facts.  While such internal matters are meaningful or interesting to the members, and while detractors may wish to publish them, cordially, I think the impulse to do so comes from a mild cruelty, always an insincere motivation for an editor. Even when found in a citable book or magazine, these items don't normally merit inclusion in summary articles about a fraternity. Our Project members normally delete the random inclusion of these items as a standard cleanup practice. The decision is subjective for some editors, but often, noting that certain facts aren't necessary to the article (non-encyclopedic) tends to be a good determining factor.
 * I took a look, and while the deleted sentence about the T symbol on the robes was properly cited, it isn't really noteworthy to a summary understanding of St. Anthony Hall, and I'd leave it off. Jax MN (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I realized that I never acknowledge your response. I was fine with its removal which is why I did nothing about it; I agreed with your assessment as it not being important. -I think the editor was more concerned about the mention of a robe than of the Tau cross, which is honestly why I used this detail. There are many mentions of robes in connection to St. Anthony Hall out there (St. Anthony = monk = members wear robes), but this was one of the few times in was in a credible source. There are several college newspaper articles that mention rumors and insider info about robes and ceremonies, but these don't qualify as reliable sources IMO. Obviously my mention of a robe hit on an aspect of this fraternity that they want to pretend is secret. Okay with me! Rublamb (talk) 19:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Got it. I respect their desire for secrecy. One realizes, too, after working with GLOs for years, that every one of these societies uses official robes and regalia.  It renders the 'fact' of the existence of such regalia even less important.  Warmly, Jax MN (talk) 19:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Lane swerve here. I do try to balance this. There is a certain European web site that collects ritual books and my honest guess is that we could find a dozen GLOs where the ritual secrets there including *why* they selected those letters, however I'm not sure that would improve the article. There are only two pages where I've basically gone, "it is out there, and it is on Wikipedia and WP:CENSOR, etc". (one relating to an extra-ordinary claim of founding, the other two a school newspaper that got openly told by the local chapter the meaning of the elements of the Coat of Arms) But I do have to struggle here not to slap the members who get onto wikipedia *just* to delete it with "Wikipedia is not censored". There is however a heavy Streisand effect here. A formal effort to remove a fact from an article doing it the "right way" (discussion, possibly 3rd party involvement, etc.) would likely spread the information across even more of Wikipedia even if successful. (A formal effort to remove that Mu Gamma Fraternity uses Blue Whales in its initiation for example...)
 * And as a note in regards to Jax MN's most recent comment, Alpha Phi Omega does *not* have official robes, I've personally been involved in procuring old choir robes from the school of Music at the campus. :) Naraht (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I suppose the lesson here is that one should NEVER, EVER use superlatives. Sigh. ;) Jax MN (talk) 21:57, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * LOL. I like to say they all have secret meeting rooms, but there are probably exceptions for that too. At UNC, a group does an annual October "ceremony" at the Old Well (the defining campus landmark) while in hooded robes and then scatters so as not to be traced. Don't know if the group still does this, but in my time a small audience used to gather to watch and try and figure out who it was. The theory was St. A's (or Gimghoul) but they have yet to be caught and have not claimed responsibility. To me, this is an example of a public display that might make this worthy of mention if ever proved. Of course with St. A's, their badges were supposed to be secret too, but then Baird published a picture. Imagine the stir that made in the 19th century. Très scandaleux Rublamb (talk) 00:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Nu Beta Epsilon
What is our path forward here? Looks like most of the occurances are where you've added the cross "see also"s for the law groups other than the List of Jewish fraternities and sororities and Harold Washington. We can always make an article out of Baird's even if the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th editions are functionally identical (including number of members). Looks like Baird's just stopped getting new info.Naraht (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Good morning. I saw your work on PDD; thanks for that.  Indeed, Baird's has enough information for a starter article for this society.  I certainly would like to work on it, but have a fairly aggressive work schedule right now.  I will put it on my to do list in case you do not have time, either.  Should we find a surviving chapter or two, it will answer that point of ambiguity. Jax MN (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Nu Beta Epsilon. Found a few sources and a few other notables. linked the see alsos. Wrote the article as it was still active, no idea if it is dormant and if so when.Naraht (talk) 02:04, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Went back to the ".il" link way above. Not sure that there is much there that can be used, but if I can find a full list of the alumni clubs at some point.Naraht (talk) 02:08, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggestions on the most recent conversation on my talk page?
Any suggestions for next step on the List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines situation on my talk page? Do you want to take a crack at it? Bring in a third party?Naraht (talk) 18:49, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I saw the discussion. Ugh.  I think you handled it well, and did so respectfully.  My advice: At this point, I'd let the respondents work out their issues.  You've spent more time working with Filipino fraternities than I have, maybe being spurred by your experience with APO in the Philippines. At core, these groups don't have the trove of valid references that US societies have.  I have weighed in on several articles that claim an enormous (IMHO fraudulent) number of chapters, but aside from calling shenanigans on them, deleting the un-referenced claims, I don't have the bandwidth for a deep dive.  Nor do I speak Spanish. I wish we had a Philippine native volunteer who could work on this. Jax MN (talk) 20:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * In this case it isn't just working out their issues, it is continuing to add their group to the list with pretty much *nothing* I can find showing notability.Naraht (talk) 22:55, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've been curious, too, on the insistence by the Philippine fraternities to be listed here on the English Wikipedia. Perhaps a broader treatment would be appropriate on a different Wiki - Cebuano, perhaps?  Their rules may be less stringent than ours, regarding WP:OR. Jax MN (talk) 23:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Cebuano may look like a large wiki, but it is almost all bot generated. And there isn't much there in terms of fraternities. English is the standard in that regard. And I'm going back and reverting.Naraht (talk) 12:54, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

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Fraternities called halls
I just came across this article in the Princeton Alumni Weekly that discusses fraternities or secret society being called Halls at Princeton University much earlier than Yale. Rublamb (talk) 19:28, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

All the "other" Alpha Phi Omegas
My doc is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NbbZI5So6XOJnOyHgsZNkqNnz9KBffqwDu2UIE4RUO0/edit?usp=sharing Naraht (talk) 20:37, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

mission/vision over at infobox fraternities?
Any comment on whether to keep Mission & Vision over at Template talk:Infobox fraternity? Naraht (talk) 05:42, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll comment there. I note that ElKevbo has been pretty consistent in his anti-fluff perspective.  He's an advocate of cleaning up articles to meet a stringent summary model, without intent to pick on GLO articles.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Jax MN (talk) 16:35, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

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Dates in tables
You don't need to add a date template for a date that is in numerical format, such as 1987. Those automatically sort as dates. Rublamb (talk) 15:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Didn't know that... Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't hurt either. :)Naraht (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

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