User talk:Jbhunley/Archives/2015/May

Submit an article in Wikipedia
Hi Thanks for editing and guiding me with regards to Wikipedia pages, wanted to understand when can i submit a page to Wikipedia or how to publish an article in Wikipedia Avi130988 (talk) 19:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)Avi130988
 * The article you are writing now is live on Wikipedia it is published the instant you create the article in Main space. That is why you see people working on it at the same time as you are. A lot of new editors use Wikipedia Articles for Creation to get input on their article and have it formally reviewed by an experienced editor before it is published to Main space. I hope this answers your question, if I did not or you need something else please let me know. Cheers. J bh  Talk  19:50, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

16-line format sample messages
Thank you for including some sample messages in the talk page. I'm a Ham operator, not military, so am just now learning the format.

I moved your samples into a table, and added a voice (ACP-125) version. Can you proof this to make sure I got everything in the right format line? I'm pretty sure I blew a couple of them. Peter K. Sheerin 22:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow! The article looks great. You have done a lot with it since I first looked at it. I would be glad go over the table. It might take me a day or so. I need to take a look at the standards documents to be sure of line numbering/naming since I either write out messages from memory/templates or have a terminal that spits them out. Although on first glance I see a couple of things. It should be made clearer in the 126/127/127-sup format is the TO and INFO lines are one call sign/RI per line. For instance:

TO: XXX9YYY AAA XXX9ZZZ AAA XXX7WWW BBB INFO: YYY6UUU BBB PPP6GGG AAA TTT6HHH CCCC Rather than: TO: XXX9YYY AAA, XXX9ZZZ AAA, XXX7WWW BBB INFO: YYY6UUU BBB, PPP6GGG AAA, TTT6HHH CCCC


 * That seems to just be a formatting issue with how long my example texts are though. In the examples I gave there is no group count because that is generally only specified in CODRESS messages but the line is there. The from line also generally has a routing indicator, I probably just forgot it in the example. Something I am not sure if is in the standard or not is the classification line is also used to specify SERVICE (Operator to operator) message types as well as classification. In that case it would read CLASSIFICATION SVC rather than CLASSIFICATION. On line 4 the ZRN UUU is a security warning which is an example of an HI/OP SIG. It was put in automatically when I made the example and can be removed if you like. The  standards vary  some between agencies and services. For instance the US State Department is a little different from US Military (US State Dept - ACP-127 FORMAT LINES) . The samples I gave is what my terminal spits out and is how US Army and Army MARS format things. I am also an amateur radio operator and volunteer with Navy MARS, our format is slightly different, mainly in routing indicator and DTG. Some formats use the Julian Day Number in the header as well. One comment, off the top, is you might want to reconsider some of the listed documents, they do not really have anything to do with the message format itself. For instance, if I remember correctly, FM 11-490-7 is the document which creates and tasks MARS but it has none of our operating procedures. Many, if mot most of the documents listed seem to be like that. I think it would be very interesting to go through some of the old documents to see how the standard changed over time and how it varies in implementation. Great job! Please let me know if I can help in any other way. I will get back to you on the table soon.  J bh  Talk  23:34, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like i pinged the wrong account. Also see notes on article talk page. J bh  Talk  01:35, 7 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the compliments! I wanted to get this format documented before too many more people forget proper message exchange procedures, like the folks who thought ICS-213 was suitable as a radio message form. ;-) I populated the references with every manual I thought might be relevant, and will whittle them out as I keep working on the article. Yeah; formatting plain text in table cells is un-fun. I need to add some HTML line breaks in there. Already know of the State Dept. manual, but am loathe to try to decode its cryptic content.

DE K6WEB

Peter K. Sheerin 21:47, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Youch! I am fearfully amazed at some ARES/RACES organizations training and capabilities. The ICS does not really consider formal, digital message traffic and Amateur Operators kind of need to make do when dealing with served agencies who are more used to filling out 'While You Were Out' message forms than documenting their message traffic. Of course the hams should be converting everything to RADIOGRAM format before sending but many of the examples I have seen just use the ICS 213 blank in FLMSG. There is no uniformity of training and procedures across jurisdictions. That is one of the main reasons I prefer to work with MARS, there is at least a base line of training and expertise. I wrote a quick extract of a couple of lines from DOS on the talk page [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:16-line_message_format&diff=661327184&oldid=661187442]. If something like that would help you please let me know. PS Just FYI your call sign might give out more personal information than you intend ie QSL. If it does you can have WP:OVERSIGHT remove it from public view. J bh  Talk  00:03, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Faculty of Chemistry of Lodz University of Technology
I'm sorry for my incorrect revert of this article. I did not see a decision placed on top. On plwiki I'm used to place/found it at the bottom of AfD. I don't understand also the erasing all information with a redirection without first merging. Well, I see the specifics of enwiki. Regards, Chrumps (talk) 19:56, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * No problem. Yes, on enwiki AfD close summaries are placed at the top. The history is still available for later use such as adding some information to the main article or if the topic later becomes notable. In general we do not have articles on University Faculties/Departments/Colleges unless they are notable in and of themselves as institutions. Anyway, enjoy editing on enwiki, I am sure it is going to be different than dewiki but I am sure you will catch on fast. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or need any assistance. Cheers. J bh  Talk  22:41, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect_and_others
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above.

1. Collect is banned from any page relating to or making any edit about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace. This ban may be appealed no earlier than 18 months after its adoption.

2. Collect is indefinitely limited to one revert per article in any 24 hour period. This restriction excepts the reversal of unambiguous vandalism.

For the committee, Robert McClenon (talk) 01:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Colors
Hi, I ask some opinion by your part on these discussions: Template talk:Union, Progress and Democracy/meta/color and Template talk:People's Party (Spain)/meta/color, because the user Impru20 doesn't want to change the color, even when I give references that states what is the real color used by these parties. He says that he want to discuss that, but he doesn't realised about the references. Regards. --Sfs90 (talk) 15:04, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * As requested I took a look at the discussion on the above two articles. Again, like the prior discussion, I see little difference between the colors. In my opinion any time the color is referenced it should be the same as in the party's published style guide. However, as mentioned on Template talk:Union, Progress and Democracy/meta/color there are sometimes technical issues which require another close colour to be used. In that case proper display of the graphic is more important than adhering slavishly to the style guide so long as it looks right. TL;DR If we are stating the color used by the party we say what their style guide says ie the template should reflect the style guide. If we are creating graphics a consistent look (cf perceptual changes because of nearby colours) is more important. I am unfamiliar with how party colours are handled on Wikipedia in general so this is simply my off the cuff opinion. If there is some customary practice I an unfamiliar with please let me know.  J bh  Talk  15:40, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's the problem, that no one had a "customary practice", it looks that someone created the templates and the colors only by personal feelings. I don't look any similarity between the colors of UPyD and PSOE (as said), and Impru20 is complaining only because he created a lot of maps, graphics and things related, that if we change the color of the party, he had to change all of them. In this case, if he's too compromised with all the Wiki project, he would have the time to correct all that. In the same way, I don't look any reference by  that sustains his possition; he doesn't gave any reference that says the UPyD color is the one that was used in the template since some time ago. Regards. --Sfs90 (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm complaining, among other things, because you are not even caring to discuss the issue before going on to push your edits forwards, which really annoys me. How much does it cost you to TALK? You have had several warnings by several users in the past because of your edit warring behaviour, and far from changing, you still keep maintaing the same behaviour.
 * Now, on the issue itself:, you before put forward some arguments to defend changing to a given color; now you want to change them to other different shades of those colors! So, before, you defended the logo colors; now you want to use the colors set in the manuals of style (something which, by the way, most parties don't even have). Do you realize I'm at the behest of a user who is constantly changing opinion and goes on to change colors using different arguments each time? How many times do you suggest I should change maps, charts and the such? Everytime you feel like to change the colors? Furthermore, the current colors are fine, and most of them are so established so as to keep armony within charts, graphics and maps. What's the necessity of changing the color templates, just because you feel like it, and disestablishing the entire consistency of colors in the charts? I'm really bothered of the little consideration you have for the work of others, that you don't even care to discuss with them.
 * Customary practice, usually, is to use the color shade that best fits for Wikipedia uses, rather than use the same exact shade the party uses (as long as the color is similar to the one used by either the party or the media). That is so because parties frequently don't keep using the same shade of a given color and keep changing it, within the range of different shades of their corporative colors. So, instead keeping constantly changing party colors (unless a given party changes from blue to red, to say an example), the color shade that best fits for Wikipedia purposes are frequently used. Sometimes that color may coincide with the exact shade used by the party, sometimes don't. Just check Christian Democratic Union of Germany, Syriza, Democratic Party of Japan, Labour Party (United Kingdom), Conservative Party (United Kingdom), Social Democratic Party of Austria, Forza Italia (2013), Socialist Party (France), Socialist Party (Portugal), Freedom Party of Austria, etc. Impru20 (talk) 16:23, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You know what's the difference? That the templates or the color that is written in the infobox doesn't have any references about the color. In the case of UPyD and Citizens (not PP, i'll concede you that they could use different shades) I give very reliable sources (the graphics identity manual used by them), and I don't see any about that in the parties you mention as examples. You see? If they have or don't any manual that states their colors, that's not my fault. In the case of UPyD and Citizens, they have one and states clearly the color. The precission is a thing that we should consider here in Wikipedia, and if we have references that support that, we could apply it. Regards. --Sfs90 (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I have to support the position of least disruption here. If the colours on the charts are not obviously visually wrong then keep them. The only time I fee we must stick to a party's MOS is when we explicitly state what colour they use ie if we were to say X party uses #ABABAB in an place a reader would see whether or not we are actually using #ACABAB in our graphics. There is no reason to go changing pre-existing and consistent graphics unless they are visually problematic nor do I see a problem with making a clean break, keeping the old graphics as is and moving forward with the MOS colour in the future so long as at this point you select one colour and stick with it moving on. J bh  Talk  16:59, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * In the case of Citizens, you will see that I accepted your change without serious discussion. The only issue arising then was that the source was unclear on the color that they were using, but was solved by using the hex provided by the party (also because differences were minimal and weren't noticeable to the naked eye, either).
 * You just told it. "if we have references that support that, we could apply it". We "could", but we are not forced to.
 * Anyway, I may concede on changing colors of small parties that have strict manual of styles and whose colors do not damage consistency, specially because changes are not difficult (there are few charts were UPyD color should be changed in order to accomplish this, for instance). I'll have to make further tests on UPyD, but I could concede on changing it. But, definitely, changing the color of major parties, such as PP, which don't even clings on to the same color shades, would require serious discussion and consensus because it would mean serious and major changes in consistency in charts between the different election articles and the such.
 * However, next time you are to do something like this, if you see that the edit is disputed go and discuss the issue before trying to push your disputed edit forward. I tell you because you have these issues with many people, not just with me, and someday you may end up reported by someone who hasn't the patience I or others have. Impru20 (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Harassment
Will you kindly blank off and leave me alone? I'm sick of you stalking me round Wikipedia. You wasted a whole evening of mine recently with your gauche nonsense.

Your behaviour is a kind of abuse masquerading as some kind of house cleaning. If this continues I shall be placing an official complaint against you.

Especially when an article is UNDER CONSTRUCTION. Plenty of other things I'd like to say to you, but I'm sure people say them to you offline if you behave like this.-MacRùsgail (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I have done nothing to harass you, if you feel I have please open a complaint and present evidence of this. An article that has had no editing since its creation on 23 April is not under construction. Based on your history I see you are an experienced editor who should know our policies on reliable sources and notability. As before please simply show how the article passes WP:NBOOK, any sourcing would be better than the complete lack of sources in the article now. If you have gotten to the point in your Wikipedia career where being asked to comply with the policies and guidelines that we all must has become so stressful as to cause you to make these outbursts rather than fixing the indicated problems I strongly suggest you take a few months Wikibreak, regain some perspective, recharge and come back and continue your valuable contributions to the project. J bh  Talk  15:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I am seriously considering a complaint against you. "If you have gotten to the point in your Wikipedia career" - I don't have a "career" on Wikipedia. No one pays me a single penny. You wasted an entire evening of mine earlier this year, and ignored tags I had put on an article. You apparently did not see the original tag, and attempted to backtrack. I had intended to spend a short time on Wikipedia, and then to sort out some offline matters, but was hindered from doing so by your maladroit manner. I come on here to improve Wikipedia, not to be antagonised by a small self-selecting officialdom, which makes up its own rules in obscure corners of the website without any kind of wide-ranging consent.


 * "I strongly suggest you take a few months Wikibreak" - I strongly suggest you leave me alone. I have the right to edit Wikipedia without you or any other people trying to delete every article I create, before they are finished, and without just cause. I suggest you re-evaluate why you are on Wikipedia - you may have even had some kind of ideal once, I doubt. There was a question recently as to why more women do not edit Wikimedia. I think the answer is obvious, even to a man like myself.


 * I've contributed a lot to Wikipedia. Not just rubbish, I resent your method of operation. People like you, and certain others, are destroying this website. If you actually get kicks out of behaving like this, well then you have my pity not my contempt. Again - stop putting my articles up for deletion until they are fully completed.-MacRùsgail (talk) 16:58, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * MacRùsgail, I'm not sure why you're still continuing to complain instead of providing what every article needs - proof of notability. --Neil N  talk to me 17:18, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Let me reply by collecting my response to your accusations and documentation of your actions in one place. As I said earlier, please take these matters to ANI if you feel I have acted improperly. Also, as I have said before, don't bluster and threaten - unless of course it makes you feel better - if so I am sorry that is the case but go right ahead and let off some steam. Maybe it will help you put our respective actions and responses in perspective. One thing I do want to make clear is any time you spend yelling at me via keyboard rather than improving an article is entirely your choice just as it has been all along.

Re: Edward Adrift You of course know all of these things are wrong since during Articles for deletion/The Fallow Season of Hugo Hunter you: My interaction with you you started with you doing a bit of light name calling [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jbhunley&diff=658875069&oldid=658870878], and moved on to accusing me of harassing you five times. Once on my talk page [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jbhunley&diff=662461019&oldid=661721865], twice on Talk:Edward Adrift [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Adrift&diff=662469957&oldid=662463905] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Adrift&diff=662459596&oldid=662458795] and twice in edit summaries [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Adrift&diff=662458795&oldid=662437027] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Adrift&diff=662458791&oldid=662053463]. All without backing it up with diffs or a complaint to ANI - see WP:AOHA for why that is bad. You have, however, threatened to do twice [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jbhunley&diff=662458468&oldid=661721865] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jbhunley&diff=662618091&oldid=662461019] now. If you really think you have a legitimate complaint against me it is time for you to take it to ANI and we can present our diffs. I missed an under construction tag on an article almost a month ago and nominated a non-notable article too soon. Again, sorry. Your actions since then have been inappropriate and over the top and nothing has been done improperly on the current AfD are even more so. I took your accusation of going through your history [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Adrift&diff=662469957&oldid=662463905] as an invitation to look at some of the articles you created recently. I found a book with no sources showing notability - The Steps of the Sun - an un-referenced BLP - Marion Arnott - and five articles sourced only to [//www.sf-encyclopedia.com/ SF Encyclopedia.com] - Joseph Addison (Scottish writer), James Peddie (author), Robert Hendrie Wilson, Mea Allan, Ismar Thiusen. I really like science fiction so in the spirit of cooperation and moving beyond our conflict, maybe we can work together constructively to improve these articles. No question SF Encyclopedia is RS but WP:NAUTHOR requires more and it might be fun to see what there is on those people. Maybe you could point me to some of the sources you use since, based on your comments you do not like search engines. J bh Talk  21:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * After proposing this article be made into a redirect on the talk page [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Adrift&diff=660263414&oldid=658870831] another editor redirected it to the author's page [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Adrift&diff=660361379&oldid=660263414]. Two weeks later yout reverted their edit without discussion and added under construction [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Adrift&action=history] however you made no furhter edits to the page for a day and, in fact, have made no improvements to the article since the day you created it on 23 April.
 * Twenty-nine hours later I removed the under construction and nominated the, completely unsourced, article for deletion [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Adrift&diff=662053463&oldid=661854212]
 * Instead of providing sources to document notability or politely engaging on the talk page you then improperly moved article at AfD [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Adrift&diff=662458791&oldid=662053463] and improperly removed the AfD tag [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Adrift&diff=662460198&oldid=662458791]
 * move propected page and added pp-vandalism due to your behavior. [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Adrift&diff=662463302&oldid=662463299]
 * Improperly removed the AfD tag [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Fallow_Season_of_Hugo_Hunter&diff=658868529&oldid=658868393]
 * Improperly removed the AfD tag again [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Fallow_Season_of_Hugo_Hunter&diff=658871271&oldid=658871074]
 * Then blanked the page and turned the article into a redirect while the AfD was ongoing [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Fallow_Season_of_Hugo_Hunter&diff=658876731&oldid=658874293]


 * Which part of LEAVE ME ALONE do you not understand? This is harassment, and you have serious psychological issues of your own. Stop trawling through my edit history for something to latch on to. I don't spend all day going though yours.


 * "The spirit of cooperation" - You evidently know nothing about this judging by your behaviour. Go back and crawl under your rock you pathetic little man, and stop trying to hide behind the rulebook. I don't give a damn about you. Is that plain enough for you? Go and get off on bothering one of the thousands of other editors here, instead of wasting my time.-MacRùsgail (talk) 17:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I've warned MacRusgail about making personal attacks. Suggest going to ANI if this continues. --Neil N  talk to me 17:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Has it ever struck you that Jbhunley has been going about this the wrong way? I'm the one here who feels like I'm being stalked and harassed. Every time I go on to Wikipedia, this man (it almost certainly is a male) creates a new problem or issue, and you wonder why I'm not happy about it. This is not the spirit of co-operation, it's someone making an unhelpful nuisance of themselves. There are much better ways he could have conducted himself towards me.


 * You probably need to redefine your notion of what a personal attack is. I'm been under attack by this person for days on any. Unfortunately on Wikipedia, it seems impossible to walk away unlike in real life.-MacRùsgail (talk) 17:45, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You could, you know, make sure your articles meet Wikipedia's basic policies. If you don't want to do that, try creating them in Draft space until they're ready. --Neil N  talk to me 17:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I have addressed some of the other issues elsewhere, and don't wish to do so on this page, which has been tagged as "Whining and blustering by a user who should know better but obviously does not." (Presumably this isn't a "personal attack".)


 * "If you don't want to do that, try creating them in Draft space until they're ready." - Or even tag them. Except that's not even safe either anymore. I've already had one item removed from my personal space. What's the point?


 * "You could, you know, make sure your articles meet Wikipedia's basic policies." - I try to. And you know what else? When I see someone else's article which doesn't, I usually try and improve it, not get rid of it, unless it's something I think is complete trivia or vandalism. There's more I could say, but as I've told Jbhunley above, I don't have masses of time to spend on discussion, which is about all I've been able to do today.


 * In the meantime, it would be better if some people considered what they were doing, instead of blundering in. Or even developing certain communication skills that would help with editing Wikipedia, instead of turning it into a form of sadomasochism.-MacRùsgail (talk) 18:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

(Moving hab down a bit.) If you wish to engage with me please do so on the appropriate talk page or, if you like BOOMERANGS at ANI. Good day sir. J bh  Talk  18:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Heh!
...that discipline does not always carry over to Wikipedia since I edit as a hobby and to relax.. You too? WTF is wrong with both of us? LOL! Montanabw (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL! Yes, maybe it is intellectual masochism :) ... I always find interesting people and topics which I might never have looked into when I edit Wikipedia and compared to RL it is almost impossible to get upset or angry for more than a few minutes here. Cheers! J bh  Talk  21:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

FYI - Some of your CTU updates appear whitewashed.
The updates from 97.100.252.46 appear suspect. Providing an FYI as you've worked on the page in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Technical_University

Best Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.47.11.193 (talk) 23:28, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Conklinj
You appear to have warned Conklinj about the wrong article. I suspect that you meant Oil Content Meter rather than Oily water separator. I would have changed it myself but didn't want to incur the wrath of another editor complaining about re-factoring the comments of others!. Regards  Velella  Velella Talk 20:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for letting me know. I will add a note on their talk page. Cheers! J bh  Talk  21:11, 8 June 2015 (UTC)