User talk:Jhall1/archive Jan,07-Jun,07

Wilfred (not F!) Rhodes
Er. It comes from my imagination. Well spotted!. :) Sam Vimes | Address me 19:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I think I've heard about the Cardus thing. Might find a way to incorporate it. Sam Vimes | Address me 22:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Sydney Pardon
Sorry, his obit in Wisden 1926 doesn't mention place of birth or death. The exact birth date comes from the annual list of births and deaths of cricketers in most Wisdens. Johnlp 19:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely about the diminished Births and Deaths and the List of Tests played. I am also, as I get older, more and more annoyed by the now very small type. Why Wisden can't be produced as a two-volume box set, rather than having to be crammed into a format that worked when the game as a whole was smaller, baffles me. They jettison some traditions that were useful – the sections you mention – but persist with one that constricts and constrains the overall usefulness. (End of rant.) Johnlp 21:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well in Pardon's day, of course, it was in two parts, though within the same volume. Part I of the 1926 edition that I've been looking at has 340 pages and includes the Notes, the features, the records (including Births & Deaths and the list of Test cricketers), the public schools, the obits and the laws. Part II is the record of the 1925 season and runs to 680 pages. Page 340 of Part I (the 1926 calendar) faces Page 1 of Part II (the start of the MCC report). Mind you, some of the stuff that's in the old editions really should have been discarded: 1926 has a 35-page article by H. S. Altham on Public School cricket! Johnlp 21:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Starting times
I would like to know the starting time for the domestic matches in England - is it 10:30 am or 11:00 ? Was/is it the same for one day matches also - whether they are/were 40/50/55/60 over games ? Tintin (talk) 07:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Tintin (talk) 12:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Nigel Plews
Thanks for contributing! Can you believe the original stub was speedied, without notification? --Dweller 22:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah! OK, see WP:SPEEDY. --Dweller 22:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

West Indian cricket team in England in 1988
Hi. Tintin thought you might be able to help with this... A reviewer rightly pulled me up for some OR in this article. I've begun fixing it, but I'm short of references to humiliation, chaos in the England camp, crushing victories etc I think these are essential to tell the story fully - that summer and the craziness with the 4 captains, was all about a team in turmoil due to overwhelming defeat after defeat, but my opinion's not worth a jot here of course! :-) I think you've got access to Wisden online - could you help with some quotes/citations along these lines? --Dweller 10:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Cricket History 1816 to 1863
John, I apologise for the length of this but you might find it useful. Just delete anything you don't need. Good luck and don't hesitate to ask if you want anything looking up as I might have a reference. --BlackJack | talk page 07:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 1816
 * Formation of the Manchester club which took part in a number of important matches until Lancashire CCC was established in 1864. Manchester were representative of Lancashire as a county in the same way that Sheffield and Nottingham represented Yorkshire and Notts.


 * 1817
 * Sussex v. Epsom at Lord’s was a five-day match. William Lambert guested for Sussex and scored two centuries (107* & 157) in the match, the first player to achieve the feat in top-class cricket.


 * 1819
 * First recorded instance of the Cambridge University v. Cambridge Town Club fixture that became almost annual until the 1860s. It was also the earliest major match to involve either team.
 * There was a very fine line between Cambridge Town Club and Cambridgeshire, the one dovetailing with the other. Similar scenarios were Nottingham/Notts, Manchester/Lancashire & Sheffield/Yorkshire.


 * 1820
 * According to Wisden, the original Northants CCC was founded this year but was subject to substantial reorganisation and reformation in 1878.
 * Earliest mention of wicket-keeping gloves.
 * William Ward scored 278 for MCC v. Norfolk at Lord’s, the first known double century.


 * 1822
 * In the MCC v. Kent match at Lord’s, John Willes of Kent opened the bowling and was no-balled for using a roundarm action, a style he had attempted to introduce since 1807. Willes promptly withdrew from the match and refused to play again in any important fixture.
 * Roundarm was a natural reaction to the growing predominance of batsmen over the age-old underarm style of bowling. Its adherents argued that the legalisation of roundarm was essential to restore the balance between batting and bowling.  :However, high-scoring matches were still comparatively rare owing to vagaries in pitch conditions.


 * 1825
 * Thurs 28 July. A schools match at Lord’s between Harrow and Winchester had just concluded and then, during the night, the pavilion burned down with the consequent loss of valuable scorecards, records and trophies.  Thomas Lord claimed he lost £2600 in paid subscriptions, none of which were ever recovered.  Which begs the questions of why it wasn’t in the bank and why he apparently wasn’t insured!
 * William Ward purchased the lease of Lord’s ground from Thomas Lord, who retained freehold. Lord had been proposing to build houses on the land which brought cries of outrage from the gentlemen players.  Ward, a rich banker as well as a fine batsman, stepped in and bought the leasehold to save the ground for cricket.
 * Even so, it was many years before the famous ground’s future was secured. The lease was transferred to Mr James H Dark in 1835 and he retained proprietry till 1864.  Then the freehold was sold in 1860 to a property speculator called Mr Moses for £7,000 and MCC did not bid!  In 1864, MCC finally did purchase the freehold but paid £18,333 6s 8d for it with money advanced by William Nicholson.  The lease expired same year and so, at last, Lord’s was owned in its entirety by MCC.


 * 1826
 * A significant event that would in time accelerate the spread of cricket throughout England was the passage of an Act of Parliament on Friday 5 May that authorised creation of the Liverpool to Manchester Railway and effectively began the railway boom.
 * The Lord’s pavilion had been rebuilt in time for MCC’s annual dinner on Thurs 11 May.
 * Sussex was widely acclaimed as the Champion County although no formal league structure existed. It was the earliest known instance of a county championship being proposed.  A situation similar to boxing developed in that another contender could challenge the champion.
 * Arthur Haygarth closed his Scores & Biographies Volume 1 at the end of the 1826 season.


 * 1827
 * 4 June. Cambridge University v. Oxford University at Lord’s was the first University Match.  It became an annual fixture in 1838.
 * The roundarm controversy came to a head before the 1827 season and MCC agreed to the staging of three trial matches between Sussex and All-England. Roundarm’s supporters made the grandiose claim that their campaign was a march of intellect.  It is difficult to discern anything intellectual about propelling a cricket ball with arm outstretched vis-à-vis propelling it with hand below elbow, but there we are.  What the bowlers were really after was of course to claim an advantage over the batsmen.
 * No firm conclusions were drawn in the immediate aftermath of the trials and it was many years before roundarm was formally legalised. But, in practice, roundarm was adopted in 1827 as its practitioners, especially William Lillywhite and Jem Broadbridge of Sussex, continued to use it with little, if any, opposition from the umpires.
 * Underarm bowling did not cease, even if it had been superseded. In fact, underarm survived roundarm.  Underarm as a tactical alternative to overarm continued into the 20th century.


 * 1828
 * Following the Sussex v. England roundarm trial matches in 1827, MCC modified Rule 10 to permit the bowler’s hand to be raised as high as the elbow. But, in practice, Sussex bowlers William Lillywhite and Jem Broadbridge continued to bowl at shoulder height and the umpires didn’t no-ball them.


 * 1829
 * Earliest known reference to cricket in Worcestershire.


 * 1832
 * Earliest reference to cricket in New Zealand is in a churchman’s diary.
 * 5 September. A notice in the Colombo Journal calling for the formation of a cricket club is the earliest reference to cricket in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka).  The Colombo Cricket Club was formed soon afterwards and matches began in November.


 * 1833
 * First use of Yorkshire as a team name (instead of Sheffield).
 * John Nyren published The Cricketers Of My Time. It had been serialised in The Town during the previous year.


 * 1835
 * Powerless to prevent the use of roundarm, MCC finally amended the Laws of Cricket to make it legal. The relevant part of the Law stated: ‘if the hand be above the shoulder in the delivery, the umpire must call No Ball.’  Bowlers’ hands now started to go above the shoulder and the 1835 Law had to be reinforced in 1845 by removing benefit of the doubt from the bowler in the matter of his hand’s height when delivering the ball.
 * Nottinghamshire as a county team, and perhaps also as Notts CCC, played its first inter-county match v. Sussex at Brown’s Ground, Brighton on 27, 28 & 29 August. Previous matches involved Nottingham as a town rather than Notts as a county.  Notts is recognised as a first-class county team from 1835.
 * The lease of Lord’s Ground was transferred to JH Dark, who remained proprietor until 1864.
 * 1835: 1st appearance in laws: compulsory follow on if 100 behind


 * 1836
 * Although Sussex had been a major cricket centre since the 17th century, there had apparently been no move towards a permanent county organisation until 17 June 1836 when a meeting in Brighton set up a Sussex Cricket Fund to support county matches. It was from this organisation that Sussex CCC was formally constituted in 1839.
 * The inaugural North v. South fixture was held at Lord’s on 11 & 12 July.


 * 1837
 * Kent was proclaimed Champion County and held the title for eight years until being deposed by Sussex in 1845. Mainstays of the Kent team in those years included Alfred Mynn, Fuller Pilch, Felix, EG Wenman and WR Hillyer.


 * 1838
 * Melbourne Cricket Club founded.


 * 1839
 * 1 March. Formation of Sussex CCC out of the Sussex Cricket Fund organisation that had been set up in 1836.

Sussex CCC played its initial first-class match v. MCC at Lord’s on 10 & 11 June.
 * 1841
 * March/April. Formal creation of Nottinghamshire CCC (the exact date has been lost) although, as noted above, an informal Notts CCC may have been set up in 1835.


 * 1842
 * 6 August. Formation of Kent CCC in Canterbury (reformed as the present club in 1859).  Teams representing Kent had been playing regularly in first-class matches since the early 18th century but these were invariably sides raised by wealthy patrons.
 * The new Kent CCC played its initial first-class match v. England at the White Hart Ground, Bromley on 25, 26 & 27 August.


 * 1844
 * 13 March. Foundation of Cambridgeshire CCC which played first-class cricket 1857 to 1871.
 * 28 August. A match on Hartlebury Common between Worcestershire and Shropshire is the earliest known instance of a county team in Worcestershire.


 * 1845
 * Although several earlier county organisations had existed going back to 1709, the present Surrey CCC was formed at a meeting which took place at the new Kennington Oval during a match between two local teams on 21 & 22 August.


 * 1846
 * The earliest first-class match at the Oval was Surrey Club v. MCC on 25 & 26 May. Only 194 runs were scored in the match with a top score of 13.  WR Hillyer took 14 wickets to help MCC win by 48 runs.
 * Surrey CCC played its initial first-class match v. Kent at the Oval on 25 & 26 June, winning by 10 wickets.
 * Social conditions, including the railways, were a major factor in the debut of the travelling All England Eleven. The team was founded in Nottingham by William Clarke, who also opened the Trent Bridge cricket ground.  The first AEE match was at Sheffield in September and they played others in Manchester and Leeds.
 * The All England Eleven played its inaugural fixture against a Sheffield XX in September. The AEE team was: W Clarke, J Dean, W Dorrinton, F Pilch, A Mynn, J Guy, W Martingell, T Sewell, G Butler, VC Smith and W Hillyer.  Other players who represented the AEE in its early days included G Parr, FW Lillywhite, N Felix, W Denison, T Box and OC Pell.


 * 1849
 * 23, 24 & 25 July. Yorkshire v Lancashire at Hyde Park Ground, Sheffield was the first match to involve a Lancashire county team and also, therefore, the first Roses match.  Yorkshire won by 5 wickets.


 * 1850
 * Re-emergence of Middlesex as a county team, largely through the interest of the Walker family that eventually founded the present Middlesex club.


 * 1851
 * 11 - 12 February. Tasmania v Victoria at Launceston Racecourse was the initial first class match in Australia.  Tasmania won by 3 wickets.


 * 1852
 * The United All England Eleven was established as a rival to the AEE. J Dean and J Wisden were the main organisers and other players to represent the UEE in its early years included John Lillywhite, T Lockyer, J Grundy, F P Miller, W Mortlock and T Sherman.
 * 27 July. John Sherman made his final first-class appearance for Manchester v. Sheffield at Hyde Park, Sheffield.  His career had spanned 44 seasons from his debut at Lord’s on 20 Sept 1809 when he played for Beauclerk’s XI v. Ladbroke’s XI.  His was the longest first-class career span, equalled only by W G Grace.


 * 1854
 * 1854: differential reduced to 80 (60 in one day)


 * 1855
 * 26 - 27 March. Victoria v. New South Wales at Melbourne was the earliest  first class match played by New South Wales.  They won by 3 wickets.


 * 1857
 * The AEE and UEE began an annual series of matches against each other that continued until 1869. The fixture was the most important of the season while it lasted.  Two games were played in 1857, both at Lord’s and both won by the AEE.
 * AEE players in 1857 included: G Parr (capt), AJD Diver, HH Stephenson, J Caesar, RC Tinley, G Anderson, E Willsher and J Jackson.
 * UEE players in 1857 included: J Wisden (capt), J Dean, J Grundy, W Caffyn, John Lillywhite, T Lockyer, W Mortlock and W Martingell.
 * J Grundy became the first player to be given out handling the ball when playing for MCC v. Kent at Lord’s.


 * 1859
 * 1 March. Formation of the present Kent CCC.
 * The earliest reference to a hat being presented to a bowler who had taken wickets with three successive deliveries, hence hat trick.
 * 21, 22 & 23 July. VE Walker of Middlesex, playing for England v. Surrey at the Oval, took all ten wickets in the Surrey first innings and followed by scoring 108 in the England second innings, having been the not out batsman in the first (20*).  He took a further four wickets in Surrey’s second innings.  England won by 392 runs.
 * 7 September. Departure of cricket’s first-ever touring team.  A famous photograph was taken on board ship before they sailed from Liverpool.  The team of English professionals went to North America and played five matches, winning them all.  There were no first-class fixtures.  The 12-man squad was: G Parr (captain), J Caesar, W Caffyn, R Carpenter, AJD Diver, J Grundy, T Hayward, J Jackson, John Lillywhite, T Lockyer, HH Stephenson, J Wisden.


 * 1860
 * Freehold of Lord’s Ground sold to a Mr Moses for £7,000. MCC did not bid.  JH Dark retained the leasehold until 1864.


 * 1861
 * 7 March. A Match Fund Committee to run Yorkshire county matches was established in Sheffield, which had been the home of Yorkshire cricket for nearly 100 years.  It was from this fund that Yorkshire CCC was founded two years later: an exact parallel with the formation of Sussex CCC from a similar fund (1836-1839).
 * HH Stephenson captained the first English team to tour Australia. No first class matches were played.


 * 1862
 * 26 August. Surrey v. England at the Oval.  Edgar Willsher of England was no-balled six times in succession by John Lillywhite (son of FW Lillywhite) for bowling with his hand above the shoulder.  For some years previously, Willsher and others had bowled in this way and the incident at the Oval put the issue into context.  The drama was exaggerated when Willsher and the other eight professionals in the England team walked off the field.  Play continued next day but with a replacement umpire.


 * 1863
 * 8 January. Formation of Yorkshire CCC out of the Sheffield Match Fund Committee that had been established in 1861.
 * Yorkshire CCC played its initial first-class match v. Surrey at the Oval on 4, 5 & 6 June. It was a rain-affected draw, evenly balanced.
 * 12 August. Formation of Hampshire CCC.  A number of previous county organisations including the famous Hambledon Club had existed in Hampshire during the previous hundred years or more, but none had survived indefinitely.
 * 15 December. Formation of Middlesex CCC at a meeting in the London Tavern.
 * An organisation in Cheltenham is believed to have been the forerunner of Gloucestershire CCC, which had definitely been founded by 1871. Exact details of the club’s foundation have been lost.

Ranji Hordern
I think OxComp just said Pennsylvania University. I'll check after getting home. Tintin 10:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The Oxford Companion says "University of Pennsylvania", so I'll edit the article accordingly. Tintin 11:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that Penn would have to be right. Pennsylvania State is invariably refered to as Penn State and is the less upperclass school of the two. Penn is the Perfect place for a visiting med student/cricketer. Are either of you going to be nominating this for DYK? I think that the additions on 15 and 16 February more than qualify it.-- Eva  b  d  15:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll pass the buck to JH :-) Should the Rick Smith book be part of references or further reading ? Looks like it was not used in writing the article. Tintin 15:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

There is an interesting edit at. That is the nickname that he uses in IRC, so it is probably really him. "Being bullied into retirement" is something that did not appear in the media. There was another bitter series of edits last year by an IP editor which must also be him. Tintin 00:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Will "being made to retire under the new regime" will cover both his opinion without being too harsh on the committee ? Tintin 05:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I am a little surprised that he added something like this. He occasionally visits #cricket channel in IRC during matches. Two or three times I gathered the courage to talk to him and once in Feb 2006, I showed him his article. He seemed quite satisfied and said something on the lines that it was "short and cute" (I don't remember what the first adjective was, but the second one was "cute"), and that author would have probably got the data from the article on him in the Jewish chronicle. BlackJack, User:JackHearne and Roisterer are all members of ACS, so they may know the inside stories. Tintin 09:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Philadelphia
Sorry about the problem. I hadn't yet put everything into the ref format. I think it would be better to get it all done in my sandbox and add it whole hog to the article when completed. I'll try to remember to let you know when it's been done.-- Eva  b  d  21:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've now updated Philadelphian cricket team with the standard refs and some other slight modifications. If you can take a look, that would be great.-- Eva  b  d  16:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Lord's
JH, are you very familiar with Lord's ? If yes, I have a couple of questions which I'll ask offline. Tintin 10:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see User_talk:Johnlp Tintin 07:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Cricket
Hello, thanks for the clarification. BTW:I know 'centre' exists but i am not so sure of 'centres' (It was there on the article). Praveen 18:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

WCOY
A user added a question in the article re. the announcement. Since I couldn't find it via a google, I changed it to a cn Tintin 07:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Wisden
Haven't quite left yet... it isn't very reliable to use a given company to assert their own importance in their marketplace (such as, relying on Google's figures to identify Google as the most-used search engine). This is an area where it is important to distinguish between primary and secondary sources. My main problem is with "...the operator of the world's highest traffic cricket website..." this is the only external source / reference on cricinfo, and it doesn't offer comparative statistics, only raw statistics. When you say someone is the biggest in an encyclopaedic article - your references really should be saying who comes next and by how far. Garrie 10:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Importance Ratings
Hi John. I agree and have changed those three to mid as you suggested. I haven't finished reviewing the current set of lows yet so I expect a few more of them to gain promotion. If you spot any more yourself, let me know.

19th Century
By the way, how did you get on with your 19th century project? If I can be of any more help with that, give me a shout. Best regards. --BlackJack | talk page 17:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

John, I would urge you to forge ahead with your project and simply merge Overview of English cricket 1816 - 1918 into it. Or simply take that over and rename it. If and when you decide to work on it, let me know and I'll do what I can to help. As you say, it certainly is a big undertaking! ;-) Best regards.  --BlackJack | talk page 18:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Philly Tours
Thanks, JHall. I'll hunt around a bit more about those tours.-- Eva  b  d  00:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

From Lads to Lord's
Yes, well spotted. I think comments that are written in anger should be removed when the anger has subsided. All the best. --BlackJack | talk page 21:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Bill Woodfull
Hello - you asked a couple of weeks ago for a citation that Woodfull declined a a knighthood. I have to admit that I took it from our List of people who have declined a British honour; as you said, it seems to be supported by external sources, but I have not been able to find a definitive source (perhaps one does not exist?). -- ALoan (Talk) 11:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Only a Pleasure
Thank you, John, for the encouragement.Robertson-Glasgow 10:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

For your attention
because it may be a while before R-G comes back :- User_talk:Robertson-Glasgow Tintin 15:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Tintin 15:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries now.Robertson-Glasgow 10:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

4 captains
It's Roman history... not Chinese! It's extremely famous... and cited. In fact, if you look at the article history, the article was originally called by that name. Loads of the older generation of cricket journalists in the UK had a classical education... they probably all had to suffer Tacitus' dreary history! --Dweller 19:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I was about to say the same thing! There is a link to our article on the topic - and the Romans had a Year of the Five Emperors and Year of the Six Emperors too. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Those damned dots"
I'll be sure to keep my contributions dot-free in future, John! Robertson-Glasgow 10:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Assessment
I just wanted to inform that some of your assessments for WikiProject Cricket might be a bit off. The assessment scale states that a B-class article "has all of the elements described in Start-Class below and substantial content". I might be wrong on this, but I think neither Clayton Robson nor Edward Solly qualify for this, though both of them you rated B-class.

The same could be said when you rated Geoffrey Udal a Start-class article, even though (I think) it does not have "a meaningful amount of good content" or have "at least one serious element of gathered materials, such as:
 * multiple links that will help to explain or illustrate the topic
 * a subheading that fully treats an element of the topic
 * multiple subheadings to indicate material that could usefully be added
 * a useful table
 * an illustrative picture or graphic."

Noble Story 11:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Vintcent van der Bijl
Feel free to change it, it was rated simply on the fact he hadn't played many Tests. I was in one of those obsessive/pedantic phases where I was trying to tag a lot of articles with the WP Cricket tag, and I guess not knowing the context of this player meant he missed out on being correctly attributed; my fault, sorry. :) AllynJ 19:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: George Griffith (cricketer)
Cheers, John. Good work. Robertson-Glasgow 22:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've done a fair bit of work on the article, but it may require some touching-up. Robertson-Glasgow 00:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the vote of confidence there, John. My replies to your well-made points are listed below:

Cheers, mate. Robertson-Glasgow 12:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Griffith was also called the "Lion Hitter" by Edwin Ball in the Badminton letter that I quoted on Usenet.
 * The second source on the 1861/62 tour, referring to the number of fielders who assisted Griffith in his single-wicket contest against Beechworth, is Lord's and Players, an anonymous piece in an 1862 edition of the Temple Bar.
 * I'll look into the footnotes problem when I get the chance, but I've got a lot of exams, etc., for which to swot at the moment, so I don't have much time.
 * I understand that I can go a bit over the top on the prose sometimes (however much I might try to restrain myself), so thanks a lot for editing the piece and giving it a more suitably moderate and conservative complexion.
 * Thanks, John. Robertson-Glasgow 15:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Bryan Wells (cricketer)
Thank you for adding statistical information on this page. Much appreciated. Arawn 00:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wisden anthologies
I just fixed what appears to be an error in the name of the editor. I have the 1940-63 one which was done by Green and I am pretty sure that Green did the fourth one too. There is also a plain "Wisden Anthology" listed against Green for 1979. Was that a different book ? Tintin 19:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)