User talk:Jhall1/archive Jul,07-Jun,09

Cricket Quarterly
John, was that the Rowland Bowen vehicle in the sixties? --BlackJack | talk page 18:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Rowland Bowen's Cricket Quarterly ran from 1963 to 1970. I suppose when it expired, the title was up for grabs.  Actually I think I remember the one you mean from The Cricketer: small booklet, wasn't it?  I certainly don't still have any.  --BlackJack | talk page 19:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Wisden Trophy
Thanks for the pointer I have made the necessary changes. Monsta666 21:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Amateur and professional cricketers
Hi, John. I'll look at it this weekend. There have been professionals since the 17th century. I've never seen this article before and yet it's very old. --BlackJack | talk page 05:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Stewart Walters
Ah yes. My brain went mad. Sorry I got the categorization wrong, you were right to change it. Thank you. Bobo. 02:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Bill Alley
You're right: it is confusing. As far as I know, he remained Australian even though he settled at Taunton: certainly his voice was pure Sydney. His (second) wife was English, so that would have given him right of residency even if he stayed Australian. I hadn't seen one of these umpire infoboxes before: I think I'm inclined to alter that rather than the playing one. Shall I go ahead, or do you have views? BTW I quite like doing infoboxes for evenings when my brain isn't sharp enough to do any "proper" writing. So if you've got some cricketers who need them, lob them over and I'll get around to them. Unless, of course, you enjoy doing them too. Johnlp 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think an Infobox for Alfred Mynn would be not hugely helpful, because although his batting figures seem fairly well documented his bowling figures are very uncertain. So I'll wait for User:BlackJack to do some research before tackling this one. Johnlp 16:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

King of Albania
Isn't there a version of this story that the whole thing was a hoax perpetrated by Ranji, and which Fry believed to be true ? Do you know which is the one preferred by more recent writers ? Tintin 17:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that looks definite except for the last line that again makes it a little confusing :) Tintin 17:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Great work, you guys. I think that part of the problem may also have been Fry's declining mental health in later years. The excerpt seems to make crystal clear that the offer was real. --Dweller 17:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Wisden Trophy (again)
I've finished with the history of the Wisden Trophy but was wandering if you have any knowledge about the trophy itself. I think the article needs a section on the trophy and any help would be useful. If you are too busy have you got any ideas which books to look at? Monsta666 20:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again but I made a start on the trophy section but feel it is a little sketchy. I've looked at a couple books but to no avail. Do you know anyone that might have the knowledge to expand the section?Monsta666 16:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

My immediate goal is GA, but eventually I would it like the page to reach FA status. I am concentrated on getting it to GA for the time being. Monsta666 17:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you know any one who would be willing to do a copyedit of the page? Being the author of the page I don't feel I'm the best person to do this. Monsta666 22:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the copyedit! Greatly appreciate that. Monsta666 20:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Added Trueman's performance have also expanded Sobers' series ,69, four captains, 91 and 94 series. Do you know of any notable feats that are not included in the article? Monsta666 21:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

DGB
I don't think you'll agree with me, but can you please take a look at Talk:Donald_Bradman :-) Tintin 11:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It was the same thing that was bugging me too, especially as it was in the first line of the article. Tintin 17:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Cricketer infobox
Yep, I was aware of the alignment too. Perhaps a rethink, with the four optional columns might be easier because as it stands, I can't set the widths at all. I'm going to experiment with a different column setup and see what happens. –MDCollins (talk) 21:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Ralph Barker
And it's surprisingly substantial, given the limited material with which you had to work. Very well done. I'll have a look at my copy of The Picador Book of Cricket tomorrow; I'm sure that Guha affords us a brief sketch of Barker there. 21:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Robertson-Glasgow 07:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Cricket/redlinks
Hi there. Without a doubt I shall attempt to get on with doing the work for some of these very soon if time will let me. However, I must just query one thing. Where Gates (Berkshire cricketer) is mentioned, is this the player to whom you refer? If so, it would seem that he never played for Berkshire in his career, unless Cricket Archive is missing some statistics. Bobo. 21:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

John Daniell
Good idea. I've been meaning to do him for a while now: possibly the most influential man in Somerset cricket ever. If I get time this evening I may start it off (unless you've already begun). Johnlp 09:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I have got rather bogged down in real life but intend to make progress over the weekend. I actually don't know the Crusoe story you alluded to, so look forward to you inserting that. Kind regards as ever. John Johnlp 22:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Sammy Woods
You make a good case for Sammy Woods to be included in the scope of WikiProject Somerset & I've put it back in. I'm happy to say I was too hasty on this occasion. I have been thinking that in Somerset we need several "top level" articles eg Economy of Somerset, Culture of Somerset etc & was wondering whether you thought "Sport in Somerset" (covering cricket, football, etc) along the lines of Sport in Leeds might be possible or worth doing? or it could be part of Culture in... eg Culture of Bristol. Any thoughts?&mdash; Rod talk 18:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Wisden trophy again again
Perfect! Thank you! Carre 19:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Your idea about specifying the relevant Wisden books sounds good but I am unsure how to implement your idea, any pointers? Monsta666 16:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Carre suggested idea works but there is one snag, I don't know what page numbers to put. Without page numbers I'm not sure if it worthwhile to add book references.Monsta666 10:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

What would I do without you? Thanks alot for that! Monsta666 14:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Duffus
I hadn't known till yesterday that he was a first class cricketer. Tintin 16:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And of course, thanks in advance :-) Tintin 17:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Tintin 05:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

History of cricket in Zimbabwe from 1992 to 2006
Done. I originally intended to end it after the last meaningful domestic season but the last couple of Test series then got tagged on. Thanks for reviewing it as otherwise I might have moved on and not seen it. BlackJack | talk page 07:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

WG Grace
Hello there and thank you for your message.

I think a limit of one tribute only should be quoted or there could be an endless list of them. I think the tribute has to come from as eminent a source as can be found. Beyond A Boundary has few if any peers in the annals of cricket literature and the fact that James must have been, so to speak, diametrically opposite WG adds considerable weight to his very positive view of WG.

I do not disagree with Wynne-Thomas' words. It is simply that Beyond A Boundary has infinitely greater merit as a source than a collection of statistical trivia. It is a case of doing justice to the subject. I would do the same if seeking a worthy tribute for Bradman, Trumper, Hobbs, Rhodes, Sobers, etc. Kind regards. Fiddlers Three 06:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

1801-1815
I agree that the overseas references shouldn't really be there. My notes again! They are included in relevant articles under those countries. Can't decide what to do with the list of matches which is a hangover from the former 1811-1815 article: there are too many in 1801-10 for a list within the article and the contents would be controversial in view of Britcher. --BlackJack | talk page 22:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

C. W. Alcock
Sorry, I didn't remove the eng-cricketbio template. The decision is decided by the AWB, using wikipedia's criteria(articles which have over 5000 bytes are seen as non-stub). There is another way to state it is a stub, such as stating that it is a stub in the talk page, but not placing a template there. But I would not revert your contribution because I just clean it up by a machine. Raymond Giggs 13:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The Ashes
The Ashes has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 04:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Altham
Altham alone published the original book (to 1914) in 1926. A second edition by himself and Swanton was published in 1938, the third in 1947 and the fourth in 1948.

In 1962, volume 1 (sic) was published with Altham as sole author.

As the one I possess is the 1962 volume 1, I'll change the entry in my list to read:
 * H S Altham, A History of Cricket, Volume 1 (to 1914), George Allen & Unwin, 1962

I don't actually have the Swanton edition. --BlackJack | talk page 21:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about the context of this, but I have the Swanton edition. Cheers, Robertson-Glasgow 11:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Kortie
You're right. We don't have any evidence of that tale, and your point shrouds it in more than enough doubt. That said, we could always just add a note to that effect. By the way, who was the bowler who once sent a beamer into the stands? Robertson-Glasgow 23:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A.A. Thomson's Cricket My Pleasure recounted the Kortright story, and the beamer one most certainly did happen. I'll try to find a definite source for it. Robertson-Glasgow 10:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We are talking about ostensibly the fastest bowler who ever played the game here, so I think it quite possible. If I spot anything more corroboratory -- as you know, I'm immersed in a never-ending study of the era --, I'll add it to the article.  Cheers, Robertson-Glasgow 11:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Found it, with the man himself my source: "My favourite story is hard to believe, but I vouch for its truth. Playing in a club match at Wallingford on a very small ground with a pitch best described as 'sporty', I bowled a ball which rose almost straight and went out of the ground without a second bounce.  I suggest that this made me the first man to bowl a six in byes!"  Cheers, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 01:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

RE: Gerald Howat
Please could you give me some idea of why you think that the article requires clean-up? I had fondly imagined that I had produced a reasonsbly good article, had gone to some trouble to provide working links wherever possible, and was a little surprised to find that it had been tagged within about two minutes of my creating it. JH (talk page) 17:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It was only in my opinion! But no problem, I'll do it now. I'll remove the tag afterwards. Regards, Rudget Contributions 18:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ Rudget Contributions 18:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Jack Meyer
I'll give it a go, but I'm rather conscious that I still need to do some proper work on John Daniell. I very rarely get more than a few minutes to do anything these days... Johnlp 21:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll make haste slowly. BTW, I see you've been having a chat about Charles Jesse Kortright. There is a citation for the Wallingford incident on page 15 of a 1983 book called The Cricketer Book of Cricket Disasters and Bizarre Records, edited by Christopher Martin-Jenkins and published by Century Publishing (ISBN 07126 0191 0). I have to say that I don't believe it's possible, but on the basis that Wikipedia is about things that are verifiable, not necessarily things that are true... The same book (page 23) says, of the early 19th century cricketer George Brown of Brighton, that "in a practice match he bowled a ball which beat the batsman, wicketkeeper and longstop and headed straight for a dog beyond the boundary. The owner of the dog tried to stop the ball with his coat but it smashed through it and killed the dog." Johnlp 21:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've made some progress on the Jack Meyer article, but need some help on the Millfield side and with any verifiable anecdotes. I tidied up some of Colin Atkinson too. Johnlp (talk) 00:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your kind words and the tidying. I must get back to John Daniell... soon. Bit busy IRL this week. Johnlp (talk) 21:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * JM is on DYK today. :-) Johnlp (talk) 11:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Altham's book
Brave call, but I agree. Going by the standards of cricket literature, 'twas incredibly dull. But please don't try reading it from cover to cover (as I somehow did); its purpose is strictly referential. Robertson-Glasgow 00:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, do you know anything about Harry East? I've a slim volume bearing his name called Cricket is for Fun and am absolutely loving it.  I might go so far, indeed, to put him right up there with Cardus and Thomson if I find any more of his work. Cheers, Robertson-Glasgow 01:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I shall let Mr East himself do the talking, with a random excerpt from Cricket is for Fun: "The modern umpire, in his white cap, and natty, short, hip-slinky white coat has become a symbol of science. He makes no reply to an appeal and raises his index finger delicately and demurely to give a batsman out, believing it his duty to abase himself almost to a cipher.
 * "It was not so in days of yore. Then the umpire knew he was not a mere adjunct to the game.  He was the apex, the great arbiter; he was, on the cricket field, God himself for the duration of a Saturday afternoon.  Authoritative and majestic, in a white coat as long as a bridal gown and proud as the bride herself as she walks up the aisle, he strode to the middle." Robertson-Glasgow 10:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's an East piece on Peate that was sent to me recently: "A master of length and flight, he could pitch and float the ball to his whim, luring the adventurous to catastrophe, blandly coercing the hesitant and timorous to their doom.


 * "Immediately he took his place among the leading bowlers in the land. Ninth in the first-class bowling averages in 1879, fifth in 1880, by 1881 he was the leading wicket-taker in England, and, in 1882, with 214 wickets he had almost 100 more than his nearest rival. So it continued - 120 in 1883, 137 in 1884, 115 in 1885.


 * "And that, practically, was the end of Ted's career. Throughout this time he had kept Bobby Peel in the second team. As soon as Ted was dismissed, Peel became an England bowler. He could also score 1,000 runs a year. He was less than a year younger than Peate, but, with all his skill, which many said was equal to Wilfred Rhodes's, Peel had to play second fiddle to Peate while he was available.


 * "In those days W. G. Grace was the scourge of the country, a Goliath of power flaunting his mastery proudly as ever did the champion of Gath over the Valley of Elah. His challenge was there for everyone who dare to accept. Thoughtfully Peate took it up.


 * "This was in the halcyon days before we were bedevilled with new ball theories. Scarlet or mud-caked, glossy or battered, a cricket ball was a cricket ball. Peate took it at the start of the match, trusted to his good left arm, tossed it gently toward the Doctor's bat, and -
 * 1879 Bowled Peate 13
 * 1881 Bowled Peate 8
 * 1882 Bowled Peate 0
 * 1885 Bowled Peate 1
 * 1886 Bowled Peate 9
 * were some of Grace's innings against Yorkshire.


 * "The Doctor suffered neither fools nor masters gladly. The thirst for revenge had bitten deep into his soul. In 1887, when Peate did not play, his four innings against Yorkshire were 183 not out, 97, 92 and 20." Robertson-Glasgow 18:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Tom Clark (cricketer)
I can be a bit overenthusiastic sometimes, although having new pages highlighted in yellow has helped speed things up quite a lot.

Thanks for the advice on dates, by the way. I must confess that I didn't know what the rules are as regards this, so have just been following everybody else's example up until now. I think I'll have to take a look at the guidelines. :) Cheers Paul20070 (talk) 11:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

William Yardley (cricketer)
Not a problem. Incidentally, I couldn't find any evidence of a place called 'Altoment' in Mumbai, and wondered how accurate the cricinfo/archive was. There was one called 'Altamont Road'(?) I think, so it may have been that. It made me wonder that if it wasn't a major suburb, is it important enough to put here. Some thoughts anyway. –MDCollins (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Jack Phillipps
That's the one. I would say that he was a notable administrator and should have an article but it's one for further discussion. --Bart | talk page 11:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Robert Robinson
Yes, thanks very much, and that's the value of someone reviewing it. I copied the paragraph from Scott and obviously started editing it but didn't finish. In too much of a hurry and late for a haunting, no doubt! --The Ghost | séance 19:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

1948 series
Minor point. Need to add a note in the Leeds report that the crowd broke the record that is mentioned in the writeup for Lord's. Tintin 13:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That a record crowd of 1,58,000 attended the match can be found easily enough in the match report in Wisden . I think the record sections of the latest Wisdens mention that this is *still* the record for a Test in England. IMO, it is this fact that should be cited, but I am in a situation where I am away from my books for a few days. Tintin 14:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Gerald Howat
Hi, thank you for your message. However, I disagree with your statement. You can see my links/citations in the discussion section where I point out that the term is usually referred to another school in Scotland. TheAsianGURU (talk) 08:20, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. The term comes up more often than usual since Tony Blair. So maybe it's time for a wiki page on the term itself? Thanks for understanding again. TheAsianGURU (talk) 08:21, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Rugby School
A fair point but I think you're slightly premature. I've only covered the 18th century so far and the Arnold era at Rugby was somewhat later – in the 1830s, if memory serves. Bear with me as I haven't got that far yet. :-) Regards.  --The Ghost | séance 19:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

William Denison
Thanks for your additions to this. I've been poring over a memory-guzzling thing I found on the internet which is supposed to be about his writing but I gave up. Did you know he was into soccer as well and helped create a Surrey FC around the time that the famous Sheffield FC was founded? He was also involved with the All-England Eleven at its outset, having got into cahoots with Clarke, so I think there might be some mileage there. --The Ghost | séance 19:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Gerania
I've found a reference for this story in a history of 100 years of first-class cricket in Bath: unfortunately, the story appears not to be true. The original seems to have been a Cardus piece in Playfair Cricket Monthly about 40 years ago! Anyway, I'll tap it into the machine later today (or tomorrow) and then paste it here. Maybe we can then jointly decide whether the story is too good to omit, or too unlikely to include. Johnlp (talk) 11:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's the story as told by Cardus in 1967. It makes you realise just how much Cardus "overwrote" things: could have been told in half the length. I've kept in all his punctuation etc etc, but there are probably some typos of my own.


 * “In the 1920s, Yorkshire, playing Somersetshire at Bath, were determined, in the last overs of the game, not to win a first innings decision. At this period in cricket’s history, an outright win was worth five points. In drawn games, the side leading on the first innings scored two points. Matches in which no result on the first innings was arrived at had no bearing at all on the Championship. The scoring was reckoned on the percentage of points obtained to points obtainable. Obviously, if rain prevented play at a game’s beginning, limiting the issue to a first innings’ decision, percentage could suffer if two points were gained out of a ‘possible’ five. (The system was unfair because weather frequently did not allow time or scope for the winning of five points.)


 * “So, at Bath, Yorkshire obstinately declined to score and pass Somersetshire’s first innings’ total. The time of the afternoon reached five minutes to six – five minutes before close of play. Emmott Robinson was the obstructive force at one end of the wicket, in his broadest pads. Somersetshire in those days was one of the country’s – nay, the nation’s – great humorous assets. John Daniell was captain, and amongst his co-laughers and practical jokers were Robertson-Glasgow (of everlasting and affectionate memory) and M.D.Lyon. The grim intention of Yorkshire not to score and win on the first innings, this late summer day at Bath, was too much for the comic imagination of Daniell. With only time for the bowling of two overs, he claimed a new ball. Yorkshire would take the lead (first innings) if they scored eight more runs – and lose precious percentage. Daniell gave the new ball to Robertson-Glasgow, perfect instrument in this gorgeous leg-pull of Yorkshire. He at once bowled four byes right down the leg-side, wide of Emmott’s pads, right down to a bank of geraniums in front of the pavilion. Emmott was in high dudgeon,’Ah’m surprised at you, Dr Glasgow, usin’ new ball that way’. And Robertson-Glasgow, who never missed a cue, retorted, ‘That comment Emmott, coming from one who knows all, and more than all, of the uses and abuses of new ball manipulation, touches me sorely’. But Daniell, standing at mid-off and wearing an ancient brown ‘trilby’ hat, cried out, ‘Well bowled, Crusoe. Now – four more gerania!’ And again, Robertson-Glasgow sent the new ball fast down the leg-side into the flower-bed – four byes and four more ‘Gerania’; and Yorkshire won on the first innings and suffered serious hurt to their Championship percentage and prospects. Here was a classic example of Gamesmanship of wit and picturesque vocabulary – ‘Four more Gerania, Crusoe,’ a saying as well worth preserving historically as Nelson’s ‘Kiss me, Hardy’.”


 * The story as told is certainly not true. I've been through all the Somerset/Yorkshire games where Daniell played and none of them remotely match up to the description, and none of them were at Bath between 1913 (heavy win for Yorkshire and Daniell had handed over the Somerset captaincy that year to Massey Poyntz anyway) and 1927 (so ruined by rain that not even one innings was completed). I'll have a look to see if anything else matches at least some of the particulars. Johnlp (talk) 15:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been through every game played by Robertson-Glasgow for Somerset, and none of them fit. Also prewar games where first innings points mattered played by Daniell and only this one fits the bill in any respect. I think the story is probably entirely apocryphal... but as it's in published material, and gets over the essential flavour of Daniell, perhaps we should find a way to incorporate it. Johnlp (talk) 20:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've updated the Daniell piece with this and another story, and will do some more substantial stuff about his cricket career later. Best wishes for 2008 to you. Johnlp (talk) 19:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree about the rugby. I did put a note on the rugby project's discussion page a few months back, but got no response. If we sometimes think cricket is shambolic in terms of the organisation of its historic resources, I think it's nothing compared to rugby, where genteel and well-intentioned amateurism appears to have been de rigueur until very recent times. And, like you, I have no interest in the sport. Johnlp (talk) 19:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Michael Parkinson
Is this the same person who wrote Cricket Mad ? Tintin 18:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Tintin 19:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

George Freeman
Aside from his popular renown as a comic book artist and guitarist, George Freeman was also a bloody good cricketer. In fact, some elderly fat man, sporting a massive beard and over 54,000 first-class runs, actually dubbed him "the greatest fast bowler I've met". Wikipedia, however, hasn't yet afforded him an article. Shall I unleash myself? Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 01:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Strike that; I've found him. He wasn't on on the disambiguation page. Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 01:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Earl of Sussex &c.
Very interesting information, John. Can you leave it with me and I'll get back to you about it in due course. Regards. --The Ghost | séance 17:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Sir Robert Paston
That's excellent, John. I followed the link back to the Richmond Green stub that I began with a few notes from Waghorn in 2005 and I cannot believe how it's grown! Everything seems worthwhile. It's like being in the garden and watching things grow from seed to full bloom (not that I'm in the garden right now, or even lately, you understand!). The Paston article is great. It never occurred to me to investigate who he was. --The Ghost | séance 20:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Variations in first-class cricket statistics
Well spotted. That was my mistake when I copied and pasted as I intended to keep the first sentence. I've reinstated it now. Thanks very much. --The Ghost | séance 22:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

British Bridge
Well, thank you! My aim at present is to write short biogs of the old school; most of them will be people I've kibitzed, played against or otherwise knew as live personalities. I've just found my copy of Guy Ramsey's Aces All, which is rather anecdotal, but does have some facts I missed. I agree the Gold Cup is important, not least because it is the only competition that links GB through the decades, with the exception of international sides in European and World Championships. I'm afraid it'll have to wait! Regards, Macdonald-ross (talk) 11:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Raymond Brock
Sad to hear, though I didn't know him well. Yes, please go ahead and do a biog for WP. He's certainly worth it. Macdonald-ross (talk) 12:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good! Now my advice would be to aim for a photo or two (maybe e-mail Sally Brock, who might also have info to add to the text). A WP photo has to be public domain; that would require Sally's permission for any photo taken privately and in her possession; her agreement would have to include a willingness for the public rights its appearance on WP would entail. That just means anyone can use it subsequently. Portraits taken by professional photographers or agencies are generally out of bounds. See First steps for more info. Excuse me if you know all this! Regards,  Macdonald-ross (talk) 13:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Contract bridge
It's included on the basis of being a recognized sport as per Olympic sports. If it is no longer considered a recognized sport, then I clearly have no objection to seeing the tag removed and that mention removed from that page. If it still is a "recognized sport", then it might be a good idea to let the tag remain, as all the other "recognized sports" were tagged as well. John Carter (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Raymond Brock
Ahhh...the magic of Special:Newpages. Kakofonous (talk) 19:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Albert Craig
Many thanks. I'll devour that. Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 23:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Re Lobby
Thanks for the appreciation - I should be glad to see any enhancements - regards Motmit (talk) 10:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He wouldn't be his father because of age etc. I don't think I could even establish that he was his grandfather, although they were connected somehow. Regards Motmit (talk) 11:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He won a scholarship to Eton (prep school records) so it seems unlikely he would have then gone to Shrewsbury, but I was unable to check the Eton register for him so I can't absolutely confirm it. Regards Motmit (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Brilliant - Don't know how I missed that. Motmit (talk) 17:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * When I did the DefSort I put him in as "de Lob..". This has the effect of listing him separately at the end of categories. He should not be capitalised as "De Lob" but perhaps he could be "Lob...., S de " what do you think? Motmit (talk) 08:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Accent - thats a hard one - I think he was pretty Anglicised and even the Canada article has no accent. Being grave rather than acute it is not so vital to the pronounciation though I think I recall hearing the correct stress being put on it by those who knew him. I suspect some people liked to be pedantic about it in print (cricinfo link Arlott) even if he was not himself - which I do not know. Motmit (talk) 10:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Book titles
My reply is on my talk page. Regards Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Division of labour
At present I'm planning to do British bridge players who are well & truly dead. However, I see a few are on your 'to do' list, such as Buller and Jeremy Flint. Can I pursuade you into a division of labour, whereby you do the living, and I do the dead? Of course, we can both comment on the other's work, that's taken for granted. If not, I'll keep off those you list. I'm fortunate to have an extensive bridge library, without which I would know little about Buller, Beasley, Lederer, &c. I'm planning to collect some out-of-copyright photos of the old guys, which should liven up the articles. Best wishes, Macdonald-ross (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Jeremy Flint
Some twerp has marked the Flint stub for deletion on the grounds that he's not significant enough to appear in WP!! But you can vote on it in WP:Articles for deletion/Jeremy Flint. Macdonald-ross (talk) 17:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Flint/B.A./Ely
See reply on my talk page. Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The 1902 Australians
Gosh. That is a huge amount of work and really well done. You've set a standard here that the rest of us will have to try to live up to. Johnlp (talk) 19:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Priday?
You might consider doing Tony Priday when you need a break from cricket. I think I'm going to do Nico Gardener and Victor Mollo; Fritzi Gordon is also a must. Regards, Macdonald-ross (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And a good start, too! However, I'm not so sure I'd describe his partnership with Rodrigues as successful, considering the low ratio of wins in the European Championship. I suppose the truth is that with the deaths of Konstam, Dodds, Harrison-Gray, Meredith and the sidelining of Reese and Schapiro, we entered a phase of decline from which we have not yet emerged. The strongest card-player of the 1970s and 80s, Martin Hoffman, played almost no international bridge. Other first-rate players such as Forester, Robson and Irving Rose didn't seem to do as well as we had hoped. Macdonald-ross (talk) 15:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Categories
A person can fit into more than one category: see thoughts on my talk page. Macdonald-ross (talk) 15:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Swanton
Only put that in because the profile on Cricinfo said it... I guess Cricinfo's errors strike again! I think I'll get rid of that now. AMBerry (talk | contribs) 19:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

List of works by cricket historians and writers
Some books/writers don't sound famous, and some are not mainstream enough to deserve an entry (Wilson - intro to Waghorn, for example).


 * Arlott - do we need such a long list ?
 * Armstrong - Shield - haven't heard of this; notable ?
 * ACS books - do we need the fc matches list ? May be because the title specifically mention historians ?
 * Fyzul Hassanali - who is this ?
 * Martin Wilson - index to Waghorn
 * Samuel Goud - the article calls him a SF writer. Are these book significant ?
 * For Woodcock and Wright, we should have some proper books instead of these.

Since the scope is huge, we have to put some filter somewhere, or split into many articles. Tintin 01:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Shusha Guppy
Dear JH, thank you very much for your kind note. Did you know that Shusha is terminally ill? I know this through her valedictory Comment in The Guardian of 18 February; in the event that you have not read this Comment, whose title is A paean to kingship, here is the link:. You may also wish to watch this short video of her, talking about Omar Khayyam:. I am deeply saddened by Guppy's misfortune of having to leave this world so relatively early in her life.

Thank you also for your kind sentiments concerning my second thoughts about leaving Wikipedia. Although I am apparently back, I have as yet not made my mind as to whether I shall stay; consequently, when I am visiting Wikipedia, I do that by a deep sense of guilt for violating my own previous statement. I any case, at present I am doing some research on the life of Ali-Akbar Dehkhoda (have collected and read a great deal of historical documents) and hope to write a proper Wikipedia biography for him before long &mdash; his present Wikipedia biography is one of the worst to my best judgement. Independent of whether I shall stay in the long run, I believe that humanity in general and Iranians in particular are greatly indebted to him for his most selfless services to democracy during one of the most crucial periods in the modern history of Iran (i.e. during and after the Constitutional Revolution of Iran); I hope that my biography of him will shed some light on some of his most remarkable services which are not touched upon even in his biography in Encyclopaedia Iranica. Of course, he also gave Iranians the equivalent of Oxford English Dictionary, which on it own is deserving of the highest praise.

Yours sincerely, --BF 22:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

ps: My apologies! I just noticed (re-reading your note) that you did know about Shusha's cancer. --BF 22:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your second message. --BF 22:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

History of English cricket to 1696
My pleasure. Or at least I think it is my pleasure. I only came on here to look at coverage of Hadlow Cricket Club and found it had been flagged for citations. I was able to supply those and then I made the fatal mistake of clicking on the links..... Not sure how long I will be here but it is interesting and I am learning things too. Kind regards. --Jim Hardie (talk) 07:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Sang versus Sung
Dear JH, according to OED, sung is the "archaic & non-standard" past tense of sing; sang, on the other hand, is the standard past tense. I do realise that your change of sang into sung may aim to refer to the past participle of sing, with the associated auxiliary verb removed for conciseness. Perhaps you may wish to reconsider your change (I shall not touch it). Kind regards, --BF 13:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. --BF 18:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Re:England, My England
I am very sorry that happened. It was not my intention to do that. I think I had it highlighted when I pasted my tag into it. I have reverted it back to the previous edit. Thank you for pointing it out to me. All apologies. Golgofrinchian (talk) 07:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

No longer stubs
Henry Beasley, Rixi Markus, Boris Schapiro, Terence Reese and Paul Stern are no longer stubs, but have not been assessed yet. The first four I can't do since I'm responsible for too much of the content; someone else has to do those... Paul Stern we have both contributed too much, perhaps, to make the judgement.

I would think these are, variously, in the Start or B classes. I am gradually going to add more photos, but I doubt if anyone can find much more on Beasley. Regards, Macdonald-ross (talk) 11:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

JimBakken becomes fieldgoalunit
Please see Golden Age article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fieldgoalunit (talk • contribs) 10:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

cricket book list
Martin Wilson's book is regarded as an invaluable tool by Historians The ACS match lists are required reading when compiling averages etcFieldgoalunit (talk) 10:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ikey Hodgson
Know anything about this guy? According to the Yorkshire Post, he was better than all of Peate, Peel, Rhodes and Verity. 'Twould be nice if his article could be improved to reflect that. Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 23:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be so quick to write him off. The Yorkshire Post piece was a recent one, not the idle musings of some nostalgic Victorian.  Harry East gives | a sorcerous chapter to Ikey in Laughter at the Wicket, while Richard Daft saw much of him in Wilfred Rhodes.  His second-rate first-class record is easily explained by the fact that he played very little of first-class cricket, opting instead to follow Clarke's All England XI around the country and feature (always at twenty-two) in local twenty-twos.  I shall try to twinkle some information out of RH, who, according to a recent trawl through Google Groups, mentioned him in lofty terms last year.  Cheers, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 09:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand me. Ikey played for the village hacks, not against them.  His wickets, being those of the All England XI, were far from cheap, and certainly nowhere near as easily begotten as Clarke's.
 * I hate the idea of Ikey being the finest left-arm spinner who ever tweaked a cricket ball. I am a massive fan of Ted Peate.
 * Did you read the Harry East article? Best, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 05:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that struck me, too, but there seems little doubt that Ikey merits a rather more substantial article than the one that he has at present.
 * What did you dislike about East's prose? I rather enjoyed the fluid mixture of Cardus's pontifical eloquence and Thomson's genial wit.  Yours, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 01:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I see that you've already done some work on the article. His dates of birth and death ought to be in
 * Done.
 * and the stuff about the other Isaac Hodgson ought to be hived off into a seoarate article, with just a standard dab message at the start of the xcricketer's article.
 * Dab message?
 * As to East's prose, he strikes me as striving too obviously to mimic Cardus, and to never use a short word if he can find a long one.
 * I'm gutted! And Frithy would be, too.  We have often joked about starting a Harry East Appreciation Society.  His expressive prose takes some getting used to, but it really is nothing like Cardus.  In true Bible-bashing spirit, I'll send you something later today in an attempt to convert you. Best, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 12:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Boris/Nicola
Boris: Both claims are essentially correct; the butcher refers not really to him but to the fact that his family owned a wholesale meat/butchery business when the horse-trading slackened off. It does seem that Boris hosted at various casinos in the period after 1965. The baccarat I know to be true: I saw him do it, and also, meeting a friend in a London casino, I discovered Boris hosting the Kalooki (a rummy-type game greatly favoured by Jewish housewives). Kalooki has no WP article, incidentally.

Nicola is a thoroughly nice person, and a top-class player. However, personally, I will go for Fritzi Gordon as our best-ever female player. And Sir Jack Hobbs to open the batting in my dream team... Best wishees, Macdonald-ross (talk) 13:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Wisden COTY
Yeah, you're certainly right - it's a footnote for me at the moment. I'm working more on the formatting at the moment... I'll take it into account for sure. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and in a few days time you'll see this list back at WP:FLC again so any comments you have, either now, or then, are very welcome! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, of course. Lists should be in natural chronological order and this one will be no different. It's easier for me to work in sections as it allows other editors to work in parallel... All the best! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Earl of Sussex
Hello again. The sources are somewhat inconsistent here. As you say, Harry Altham calls him Thomas Dacre which is strictly speaking an error, though I daresay he was unofficially called that. In two more books, he is called Thomas Lennard in one and simply the Earl of Sussex in the other.

There are redlinks on the Baron Dacre and Earl of Sussex pages which I have made consistent and I have then added this link to the early cricketers list. I will add him to my to-do list also.

The Earl of Sussex title is quite confusing with three re-creations from 1644 to 1717. It looks as if Lennard died in 1715 without a successor. A new Earl was created in 1717 and the Dacre baronage was held in abeyance for many years. Best wishes. --Jim Hardie (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello again. I found this page which says Lennard was the 1st Earl of Essex! Having looked at Earl of Essex and elsewhere, this is clearly an error.  Hopefully his dates of birth and death are correct.  I am going away for a few days but I will be back.  Best wishes.  --Jim Hardie (talk) 20:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, John. I hope you're well.  I just left a message for our friend here and spotted the posts about Dacre on his page.  Once again, you've done some sterling research that I'll make good use of!  I think I must have got his (wrong) name from Altham.  I shall give credit where it is due.  --BlackJack | talk page 20:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Alresford
I am baffled! I changed that article in the same way as the others I have been working on and it has not altered. I wonder if I previewed it and then went away from it, thinking I had saved it? No matter. Thank you for pointing out the omission and I will add it back into my to-do list.

What I call a "default list" of references are fine for "the bigger picture" but are non-specific and too vague. As you have pointed out, the Ashley-Cooper work covered 1742 to 1751 only and I doubt if there is a mention of Alresford in any source at that time. I am trying to improve the articles in terms of quality, especially by making them compliant with WP:CITE and WP:NPOV, although I have rarely had to invoke the latter in the early cricket articles. The articles are well written apart from the lack of inline citations and one frequently recurring little trait which is the phrase "we know that..." – this gets my goat! ;-)

Best wishes and thank you again for your diligence. --Jim Hardie (talk) 06:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Hugh Trumble
As someone who admired your work on Australian cricket team in England in 1902, I am wondering if you would be interested in taking a look at the Hugh Trumble article. It is currently listed at Peer review/Hugh Trumble/archive1 and any ideas you have to improve the article would be much appreciated. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 21:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Tate nick
Just saw your revert. Is it common enough to be put at the very beginning ? Tintin 01:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But IMHO, it should be used in instances where the person is known by his nickname and not his given name - George Oswald Browning "Gubby" Allen, Bryan Douglas "Bomber" Wells etc. It should not be used even when the nickname is famous - introducing SMG as Sunil Manohar "Sunny" Gavaskar isn't right because he is usually called Sunil Gavaskar. A Bill "Tiger" O'Reilly may be just about okay. I guess Tate is "Maurice Tate" far more than "Chubby Tate" and so Chubby should be demoted to later in the intro or into the main text. Tintin 09:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Moved it to the second paragraph. Tintin 01:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Jim Laker
I cut 'n' pasted that quote from the obit penned by John Arlott. It could only have meant "buzz". I'm off to change it now. Cheers, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Ranji Hordern
Odd, that. I recall seeing Palmer described as a leggie in numerous contemporary sources. Presuming that my erratic memory is not pulling another Bedser-Tate schtick, that would seem to dispel the notion that Hordern was even the first successful Aussie leggie. I shall do some digging. Regards, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 09:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It will no doubt amaze you to know, then, that I recently came by a claim (from no less a luminary than Lord Hawke) that Palmer beat Bosanquet to the googly. My mind being elsewhere, I failed to get at that above, thus confusing us both.  Perhaps Henderson has a point?  Most genially yours, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 10:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hawke seemed pretty certain -- he played with both Palmer and Bosanquet, so he had every right to be -- and added the authenticity-amplifying detail that the googly was responsible for the destruction of Palmer's shoulder in 1886. I have not mentioned this before, by the way.  You are thinking of my Cooper hypothesis.  Fullest, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 10:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, the devil's-advocate approach that you have taken to taking to all my wistful bouts of iconoclasm is highly annoying -- if, I suppose, only natural. I hereby vow to dedicate the remainder of my existence to proving this likely-fallacious theory. Ever, Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 21:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry. That last message was meant to be jocose.  I suppose it came out the wrong way because I started it in a happy mood and, following a local crisis, finished it in a dark one.  There is absolutely nothing about you that I find annoying.
 * You will doubtless be pleased to know that one Gideon Haigh is in full agreement with you on the Palmer matter, and that, between the two of you, you have convinced me that something rather more substantial is needed if I am to hail this as evidence that Bosanquet had a predecessor.
 * Apologetically,
 * Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Howard Marshall (broadcaster)
Ooops... I googled him on "Howard Marshall" angling|fishing and got no hits, but I must have made a typo!

Fred Holland
A good read. :-) Johnlp (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Mmm. I'm not sure about more templates and stats in tabular form. What I like about a lot of the cricket stuff we do here is that, unlike cricinfo and cricketarchive, there is a narrative that can at times give you a real flavour of a match, a person or the times in which everything happened. Stats and boxes are very dry, when well-written prose is always readable. Johnlp (talk) 08:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Ted Barratt
Splendid work, sir! That's as fine an article-opener as I've seen. This chap was obviously better than Hodgson, Peate, Peel, Briggs, Blythe, Rhodes, Verity, etc.

Yours (in what I hope is patent humour [but only in the second sentence]),

Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 21:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

There is an article on Barratt buried in the Cricketer of the 1950's. Also in Cricket A Weekly Record but I do not have ready access. I believe he drank latterly and put on weight. He may also have been rather round arm in delivery. I'll try to find the article.Longrunup (talk) 17:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! JH (talk page) 18:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

It's first-rate stuff now. Do you think that it would be expedient for me to trawl through The Times in search of more? And please do not hesitate to draw my attention to one of your pieces again -- in fact, why not draw my attention to them all? --; I relished this. Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Clem Hill
The last line of Clem Hill, from On Top Down Under reads "When watching Jack Hobbs break his record for the most runs in Test cricket at Headingley in 1926, it was Hobbs' wife sitting nearby who had to remind Hill that the record was previously his.[4]" But it is factually wrong as Hobbs beat Hill's Ashes record at Leeds (the record for all Test matches had already been his for nearly two years).

How do we handle this ? Do we need to make a mention in the Notes section ? Can you please comment here. Tintin 02:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Tintin 08:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Josh Coulthurst
Thank you for clarification regarding Josh Coulthurst. I was unaware that this was the case. Bobo. 17:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Moreover - thank you for reminding me that I had registered to view all the old Wisdens on Cricinfo! Completely forgotten I had already registered. A fascinating insight, thank you. Bobo. 17:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

WP Cricket
Dont have a bot, doing is by hand. Dont have any idea of how to make the template identical. Thanks. Five Years 06:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * John, I've replied to Five Years on his talk page. I don't think there is a problem here because the "WP" template is a redirect to the "WikiProject" template and so they are the same thing.  It doesn't matter if an editor uses WP or WikiProject.  --BlackJack | talk page 04:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Beldham or Beldam
It occurred to me that I really don't know where "Beldam" came from so I checked numerous sources and, with one single exception, they all use "Beldham". The exception is Nyren, who typically uses both spellings; he also refers on a couple of occasions to "Beauclerc". My conclusion is that Nyren's error somehow got picked up and has been repeated, but I don't now know where I've seen it! For the sake of consistency and to comply with all other sources, I think WP should use "Beldham" throughout.

Incidentally, I realise that "Beldam" is an authentic spelling and I'm not changing the names of people other than William Beldham and his brother George: e.g., wasn't there a Middlesex(?) player called Beldam – played in the late 19th century, I think? --BlackJack | talk page 04:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Answering my own question, there were three, including this one. All related to each other and all played for Middlesex in Edwardian times.  One of them played for London County with WG.  --BlackJack | talk page 04:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

E.W. Padwick or Eric William Padwick?
In any case, the move created an automatic redirect. Feel free to swap the contents of the page with those of the redirect page if you insist. There are cases where the abbreviated version of the name is used here (D. H. Lawrence or F. Murray Abraham come to mind) because that version of the name has become their trademark of sorts. I doubt that Mr Padwick is in that category even though his name often appears abbreviated (don't show me Google results please, there's no proof in these). But do please be bold if you disagree strongly. --QEDquid (talk) 10:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi
I'm finally beginning to make some headway at Bradman's PR. I'd like to bowdlerise (sp?) User_talk:Dweller to the relevant PR. I hope you don't mind. Please keep an eye on the PR a) in case you feel I miscontrue your comments and b) for my (eventual) responses. --Dweller (talk) 10:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Read that Patsy Hendren coached South Australia in Bradman's first fc season. Is it true ? Tintin 13:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * OMG, I have no idea. Would be nice to include if so, and sourced of course! --Dweller (talk) 13:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is from the site that JH mentioned in WT:CRIC. Tintin 13:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hon. C G Lyttelton
That's the one. It's confusing when they have titles. I found this recently when I did the stubs for Brudenell, Darnley and Thanet. Quite often they've succeeded to the title after they finished playing and so they are simply the Hon. Someone or other on scorecards. BlackJack | talk page 18:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Retired out
hello. i added some contents to cricket dismissals (of 'retired out'). they have been removed by you. i watched that particular match. so i know that for fact that mahela's and marvan's dismissals. by looking at your userpage, you seems to a vet here in wiki. so can you please explain how can do this edition. thanks.

Chankal 6:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

On the same topic, Dismissal_%28cricket%29 says that "Jack Hobbs was renowned for either retiring or giving his wicket away upon reaching a century". The latter half is well-known, but the "retiring" part is a little fishy. Only once did he retire after a hundred and that was a "retired ill" at 144. Haven't checked who added it, but planning to remove Hobbs name soon. Tintin 06:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

all right pals your moves clear to me now.check this out Radella Cricket Grounds tell is there any thing to edit.Chankal 10:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

yes i initially thought it should be 'Ground'. but thought to go with the cricinfo name. but after you suggest it, i think 'ground' is correct. i'll do the edits. thank you.Chankal 3:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

followed the link. yes lets keep the name that way. Keep in touch Chanakal (talk) 14:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: Robert Poore
I would love to help, but I am not, alack, the begetter of that contentious edit. Best, Crusoe (talk) 08:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Itchin Stoke Down
Hello John. Do you know if Itchin Stoke Down was used by Alresford CC after the last Hampshire match there in 1798? It's for the infobox I've put in the article. Thanks again. BlackJack | talk page 09:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks John. It looks then as if 1806 is the last known date for Itchin Stoke Down.  I've entered 1806 but added that it was the last known date for major cricket, which leaves open possible use after that by the local team.  That's a very good extract from John Arlott: I might make much more use of it.  BlackJack | talk page 13:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Charles Tarbox
Sheer stupidity on my part, I'm afraid! To save a huge amount of tedious typing, I usually copy/paste the outline (infobox, cats etc) from someone else's bio and simply edit those. It's a basic part of my editing routine to check the dates match before submitting the final article, but for whatever reason on this occasion I failed to do that. Thank you for catching and correcting that error! On the specific matter of the discrepancy between CA stats and Wisden's obit, I'd go with CA's, as you have done, especially since Cricinfo agrees. The real pains are when all three sources give different answers, as does sometimes happen: these days I tend to consider CA the most reliable of the resources. Loganberry (Talk) 17:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Alletson
Thank you! --Dweller (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

WG Grace
He neither wrote nor compiled the book or researched anything within his 'book.' The last big Biog explains this. Grace merely put his name to the book. The CC List has no provenece at all. It was merely cribbed.Fieldgoalunit (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The Doc
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=W._G._Grace&diff=224502401&oldid=224502351 ? Tintin 03:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Off topic, you can get Grace's Memorial Biography here plus some other books. I searched it for the mentions of Townsend and the story too unsuccessfully.


 * Another crib about the lead : "[CLR James] declared Grace "the best-known Englishman of his time", and writes of cricket as "the game he [Grace] transformed into a national institution". This would give the impression that James coined those phrases. The former has often been used by others before (for eg, Bishop of Hereford's famous passage from 1915 : "Had Grace been born in ancient Greece .... as he was born when the world was older, he was the best known of all Englishmen and the king of that English game least spoilt by any form of vice"). Don't know any specific older citation for the "institution" quote (though there is Tom Brown's School Days) but it is possible that it isn't original either. Should we remove it from the lead ? Tintin 03:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have a reply pending for this ... Forgot about it :-( Tintin 01:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Denzil Onslow
That's an interesting site. I got Onslow's ranks from S&B which also lists Cumberland, Maitland, Becker and others by rank. I created a new article for Maitland and then discovered he already has one re his military career. BlackJack | talk page 06:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Lord Charles Strathavon
That is uncanny. I'm making up several new articles on TextPad and was literally looking at Strathavon just as your mail arrived! I've found him on CricketArchive now and they say he "was known as Lord Strathavon as eldest son of 4th Earl of Aboyne and succeeded as 5th Earl of Aboyne in December 1794, and as 9th Marquis of Huntly in May 1836". I'll dig a bit further among the peerage sites I use. Thanks again. BlackJack | talk page 08:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The "Charles" I've used in the early cricketers list is an error. His son played cricket too and I've given his name to the father.  There's no doubt the 1785 player is George Gordon and that he became 5th Earl of Aboyne and 9th Marquis of Huntly.  No need for a new article, then.  I'll make some changes instead.  All the best.  BlackJack | talk page 09:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Combe Hay
It was even spelt that way in one place in the Combe Hay article, which I've also now changed. Long, long time ago I did my university dissertation on the Somersetshire Coal Canal which ran through Combe Hay, and I recall the spelling was pretty mobile in 18th century documents, and sometimes written as one word in either spelling. For any canal historian, Combe Hay is one of the most significant places in the UK, being the venue for several highly innovative schemes, all of which proved pretty disastrous. All of them related to the fact that the canal was built from the two ends, and when the two halves met at Combe Hay there was a huge variance in the water level that had to be overcome somehow, with very little space to do it in. Johnlp (talk) 20:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Charlie Bull and Maurice Nichol
Yes, I noticed the sad coincidence regarding the fixtures, though decided that it was too tenuous a link to mention in the articles proper. As regards Bull, I'm fairly sure that you're right and that the delay in his "full" career starting was indeed for qualification reasons, but at the moment I have no source for this (I can't find a Wisden obituary) so have had to let it go. That information will certainly be included if and when I (or anyone) find a reference for it. Loganberry (Talk) 22:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoops; you're quite right! Sorry about that. Loganberry (Talk) 10:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

John Thewlis Senior and Junior
Know much about these two? I should like to think that my work on the former has turned his sadly-disregarded article into something decent, but un-oppugning the latter's notability will take some doing. Off to read about Barnes, Crusoe (talk) 21:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Wikimania 2010 and Wikimedia UK v2.0 Notice
Hi,

As a regularly contributing UK Wikipedian, we were wondering if you wanted to contribute to the Oxford bid to host the 2010 Wikimania conference. Please see here for details of how to get involved, we need all the help we can get if we are to put in a compelling bid.

We are also in the process of forming a new UK Wikimedia chapter to replace the soon to be folded old one. If you are interested in helping shape our plans, showing your support or becoming a future member or board member, please head over to the Wikimedia UK v2.0 page and let us know. We plan on holding an election in the next month to find the initial board, who will oversee the process of founding the company and accepting membership applications. They will then call an AGM to formally elect a new board who after obtaining charitable status will start the fund raising, promotion and active support for the UK Wikimedian community for which the chapter is being founded.

You may also wish to attend the next London meet-up at which both of these issues will be discussed. If you can't attend this meetup, you may want to watch Meetup, for updates on future meets.

We look forward to hearing from you soon, and we send our apologies for this automated intrusion onto your talk page!

Addbot (talk) 20:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

History of cricket to 1725
Hello, John. Actually I'm struggling with this question of Derrick's ancestry. I have a note that I originally got the information from Bowen's book but, on checking his text earlier, it is apparent that I did not because Bowen says nothing about it! I've looked at other books but I really don't know where it's come from and I think I will just leave it out. I take all your points about Derrick and I think really it will be best to just stick to the bare facts.

The date of the Guildford hearing has been recorded as both 1597 and 1598 but the correct date Monday 17 January 1597, a Julian date. For old dates, this is a very useful website if you've never seen it before.

I'm going to try and promote this article through GA and FA, if I can, so any help you can give me will be very much appreciated. Chronologically, it is of course the earliest WP:CRIC article so I think it should have a special rating. All the best. BlackJack | talk page 19:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It probably did happen earlier and elsewhere, but it has crossed my mind that the Guildford schoolboys might actually have invented the game. After all, we don't know of any earlier instances.  I'll be uploading some changes soon.  BlackJack | talk page 19:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Eureka! The bit about the Flemish words is in this paper which I completely forgot about yesterday: David Terry, The Seventeenth Century Game of Cricket: A Reconstruction of the Game.  If you've not seen it before, it's a very interesting read.  BlackJack | talk page 06:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

South Sea Bubble revisited
History has an amazing capacity for repetition. Actually, I wonder how long the FA Premier League can go on. MUFC apparently has debts of £700m and is owned by the Glaser family whose wealth is based on trailer park homes. Not one club is in the black, the lowest debt being £0.2m at Hull. I think there will be some very spectacular crashes in the sporting world before long. Cricket and football need to take a long hard look at how they do things in the NFL. BlackJack | talk page 05:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for noticing where I had gone wrong in my disambiguation on my new team-by-team sandboxes. If you happen to go through them and spot any more rusty non-disambiguated names, please feel free to fix them yourself - I think I have caught most, if not all of them by now - though I am prone to more errors than most on these kinds of things.

All the best. Bobo. 11:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

On User talk:Bobo192, Jhall1 said: You're welcome. I did wonder whether BlackJack might have done some of the 18th century Kent players that you included, but I haven't checked.

I've done a fair few of the bluelinked cricketers in the sandbox - I'm trying to work my way backwards on each list - taking Kent's cricketers, for example, from Edward Winter onwards. Of course, for most teams who played first-class cricket at the time, there is very little you can say about them.

In several ways, modern-day cricketers are a lot easier to write about - but in other ways, it's much easier to write about cricketers from the early days because information on them remains completely static.

That said, when you say 18th century cricketers, my list only goes back to 1806, Kent's earliest first-class match as per the Scorecard Oracle. Bobo. 17:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

On User talk:Bobo192, Jhall1 said: When I said "18th century" cricketers, I should really have said "whose dates of birth are shown as being in the 18th century". Of much more recent Kent cricketers, I'm tempted to write articles on David Halfyard and Stuart Leary, but my "to do" list is ever lenthening so I may never get around to it.

Thank you for clarifying - sorry if I caused any confusion. In the meantime, I will see if there are any cricketers in the first 100 or so Kent redlinks that I am able to write stubby articles on, lighten the workload and all. Bobo. 18:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

On User talk:Bobo192, Jhall1 said: Good luck with that. I found that Stuart Leary does in fact have an article. That must have been one of the links that AMBerry has corrected. My own primary interest is Surrey, where there's still much work to be done. (With a secondary interest of cricket journalists.)

Surrey eh? *rubs hands together planningly* That is one team I haven't even looked at writing a list of redlinks for. I need to start working on that at some point. Interestingly of the fourteen Surrey first-class debutantes in their first year, only one was born pre-1799.

I will put Surrey on my to-do list and get to it sometime. Bobo. 18:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Surrey seems to be the hardest word
(Or, how I learned to compile Surrey redlinks and notify WP:CRIC members).

I did as you requested yesterday - I made a subpage for Surrey's first-class cricketers - all 453 of them! If you have any concerns or find anything that needs fixing, please feel free to do so yourself if you spot them before I do.

The list is here. All the best. I might start working on some redlinks this evening. Bobo. 04:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

1880
That's true, I had only just realized that my list went back to the 1880 debutantes. I ran out of time this afternoon and gave up at the nearest round figure. I'll work on 1846-1879 between now and when I go to sleep. Thank you for reminding me. Bobo. 20:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Charles Hoare
Hi there Jhall. Just to let you know - my list of Surrey cricketers is not yet complete - it only goes back to 1870. Eventually the list will have to go back to 1846, by which time we will need to have an article on Charles Hoare (cricketer, born 1851) and Charles Hoare (cricketer, born 1819) who both played for Surrey. This is why I pointed the link as such - I didn't realize there was already a page at Charles Hoare (cricketer) - later on we can move the original page and turn Charles Hoare (cricketer) into a disambiguation page.

How does this sound? Bobo. 15:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Leicestershire cricketers
Hey there. I've spent the morning making a list of Leicestershire cricketers, or more accurately, three - 2008-1946 debutantes, 1940-1919 debutantes, and 1914 debutantes.

They still need tweaking before I put them live on a user subpage, but I'll be sure to do that as soon as possible. Bobo. 02:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Done them all. You can see the list at User:Bobo192/Leicestershire redlinks. Bobo. 03:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Nottinghamshire cricketers
Thank you for fixing. I got mixed up as to which Hardstaff was which, and I guess I completely missed Clarke. Bobo. 09:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Importance ratings
Hello John. Yes, this is a can of worms, really, as a subjective view is inevitable. Feel free to change any rating I might have applied as I'm using a lot of copy-and-paste and may well forget to study some articles as closely as I should. I agree with your assessment of Francis Lacey, by the way.

What I'm doing is trying to identify all "high importance" biographies and it's surprising how many have been unassessed: players like John Snow, Tom Graveney, Gordon Greenidge, Stan McCabe, Allan Donald, John Edrich and Basil D'Oliveira to name a few. I then thought that if an article has been given a start-class rating at least then it should also have an importance rating, so I'm steadily reducing the start/no importance category. If an article is a stub, I think it's fair enough that it has unknown importance because with a stub there arguably isn't enough information to form a view. I've also ensured that anything with an importance rating has a quality rating too, though there were only a few of those.

I started this thankless task because of YM's list of key biogs on the to-do page. In essence, I think the key biogs are those which deserve a high importance rating (plus WG and the Don, of course) and I'd like to "complete" YM's list so that we can see how well these articles have progressed. As you know, relatively few have had any real work done.

I've never liked the importance thing either and I'd be happy if someone ran a bot and removed importance= everywhere it appears. Some hope, though. BlackJack | talk page 17:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:Cricket biography stub sorting
Thanks for that I copied the code from elsewhere, must be more careful next time. Will get round to it shortly. Waacstats (talk) 11:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Stanley Jackson
I had a feeling someone would bring that up. :) As if to confuse matters further Cricinfo's page mentions both Frank and Francis. Seeing as the Wisden obituary has Francis, I'll change it to that and stick a footnote to go with it. -AMBerry (t|c) 20:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ratings
Sorry, it's because of using copy and paste to try and get importance ratings into all the significant articles that haven't got one yet. Do feel free to alter any that are obviously incorrect. I've done A-E so it's a bit of progress. You'd be surprised at some of the names I'm finding, the latest being Jeff Thomson. ---BlackJack | talk page 19:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The Sewells
I'm afraid I've beaten you to it with these two. I've currently got a set of 20 new articles in my workspace from the mid-19th century and these are among them. I particularly wanted to get all of the original All-England Eleven up and running. I included Junior as I find it helps to do significant family members as a group (I did the same not long ago with the Grimston clan). Anyway, they are both there now as stubs and anything you can add will be of course most useful. ---BlackJack | talk page 20:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Dukes
Timothy Duke might well have been a member of the ball-manufacturing family but according to a note I have, the firm was founded in 1760 by Richard Duke of Penshurst. I'm not sure where I got this from so I'll have a look around and see if I can find the source. ---Jack | talk page 07:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Priorities
Hi again - I can see I was preaching to the converted in your case! Regards Motmit (talk) 23:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: Simon Wilde
My fault, really. I was going to do something more substantial and notability-establishing when the exigencies of my increasingly hectic social life called me away. Still, isn't the standard protocol to inform the creator of an article of its failure to establish notability before deleting it?

I think we can both agree that Wilde has enough about him to make cementing his place a doddle. I'll get to it later today. Crusoe (talk) 03:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see that your typically diligent and readable efforts have saved me the trouble. Off to watch the Windies scrape out a draw, then.  Compliments of the season, Crusoe (talk) 03:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And to you. Crusoe (talk) 06:01, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I commented on what is necessary to establish his notability on my talk page: basically, published reviews of his books from other than Amazon & the book jacket. (as for what's above from earlier, yes it is standard procedure, but the admin who deleted it doesn't usually bother to notify. Almost all the rest of us do.) DGG (talk) 16:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Peter Randall Johnson
I'll give him a go over the next few days. Had fun with Bryan Lobb yesterday. One of my earliest Somerset heroes. Johnlp (talk) 23:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Put something up. Happy New Year. Johnlp (talk) 18:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that: I've added a line or two. Johnlp (talk) 19:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Percy Fender
The nickname is in his Cricinfo profile. Andrew nixon (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Fred Stedman
Seems a rather apposite death, considering his method of personal protection. I don't suppose if you know whether it was the Great South Western Railway, one of the main Irish railways? Please feel free to add him: the "list" on my sandbox page was started by the estimable Tintin and I don't think I've actually added anything to it at all. Johnlp (talk) 19:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Memory playing up again: it was the Great Southern and Western Railway, not the Great South Western Railway, and according to the map on the Wikipedia article about it, it traversed only a small corner of Co Wicklow, a long way from Bray. Ah well, it was a nice thought. Johnlp (talk) 20:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I might have some (paper) reference I can look up when I'm next in my office, but that's not likely to be this week as I'm out and about a lot. I suppose a railway accident could be as minor as someone falling off a platform, rather than a full-blown collision or derailment. Irish railways actually had a pretty good safety record in comparison with mainland UK ones, though there were a lot fewer of them and they generally went rather more sedately. Johnlp (talk) 23:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I was fleetingly in my office today and had a brief glance through relevant issues of The Engineer, which tended to report on railway accidents in those days. I can't find any mention of any railway accident as such at Bray at the time and I now notice from Wisden that Stedman is said to have died "accidentally on the railway", which could mean a rather more personal accident rather than a train crash. I'll have another look when I next go in there, but am out and about again this week from now on. There was quite a lot of work on the Dublin and South Eastern Railway in 1918 in connection with plans to divert the route inland: there's an inference that the line was affected by floods or tides or some such. I'll let you know if I find anything useful. Johnlp (talk) 22:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Courtesy message...
I have namechecked you --Dweller (talk) 12:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Neither one thing nor the other...
I think you're right. The Sage of Longparish said as much in a letter to The Cricketer after Cunis' death. And he is, of course, wiser than all of us. Johnlp (talk) 20:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Eton - Harrow
Don't we have any article on Eton-Harrow cricket match ? Tintin 13:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Grace & Wisden
John, thanks for added citations about the bowls link. Hope a source from 1903 itself can be found later on.

I've added a new section at the project talk page, regarding the figures issue. Please have a glance and comment when you are able to. Cheers, Ross RossRSmith (talk) 11:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sang Hue
IIRC, he fielded a ball at square-leg and threw it to a fielder during the final stages of the 1967/8 Kingston Test :-) Tintin 15:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

British library
Splendid resource. While looking for the usual keywords found this in the Sports and Pastimes dated Sept 2, 1882 :

"Just after the conclusion of the Australian second innings a man, named Spendler, of Eastbourne fell down. Blood flowed freely from his mouth, and a medical examination showed that death had resulted from congestion of the lungs and bursting of a blood vessel"

This should be the guy who is often quoted as having died of a heart-attack during Oval 1882. Hadn't known that the popular version that attributes the death to tension of the final stages was an exaggeration. Rae, page.278 in my paperback, calls him the "oft cited but never identified heart-attack victim". Tintin 05:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Feel free, John, to tell Tintin about my discoveries. Only do so via email, if it's not too much trouble.  All the best to you both, Crusoe (talk) 07:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The Bs
Hello, John. Hope you're well. It is interesting that CricketArchive's records have the Bs as lowest total. In think the WP article on records is inconsistent in places but that is understandable given the confusion in the main sources. All the best. --Jack | talk page 08:00, 28 June 2009 (UTC)