User talk:Jim1138/Archive 12

TRULYTRUTHFUL
Hi,i am the one whose various edits on different posts like Aasra,Shaukeen etc were edited out by you.You gave varied reasons for doing so.I just want to say that what you did was a mistake as whatever i wrote was 100% true and was neither a figment of my imagination nor my personal analysis.You can search the internet to verify whatever i edited was true or not.Trulytruthful (talk) 10:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I did not remove the edit to Aasra for being untruthful. I removed it as it was not sourced. I might have removed some because you forgot to capitalize or did not leave spaces after commas and periods. It is your responsibility to add references and correctly format sentences, (see WP:V, WP:RS WP:OR), not mine to clean up your mess. Jim1138 (talk) 10:11, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Couscous
hello i don't understand why you delete the link in the couscous page, i just add ONE link of couscous recipe of my website, as i see in other pages, it is normal. Thank's for your answer and sorry for my english. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.50.171.45 (talk • contribs)
 * External links should be to add to the article. For instance, a link to a page that describes differences between types of couscous in different countries would be fine. Links to recipes do not add information on the topic, just information associated with the topic. I.e. wp:coatrack an article about a coat rack quickly becomes loaded with hats and coats, which is not what the article is about. If people are interested in recipes, they should google them. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 10:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

— — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.50.171.45 (talk) 10:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * ok i understand, just for information, the first link in couscous page is an 404 page, also in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajine page the first link is also an 404 (but all links are about recipes). sorry for disturbing

Boxing training
I'm crossposting the following on the Talk pages of users Jim1138 and Webclient101. Recently, you have both reverted my edits to the Boxing training article. In the Boxing training section of aforementioned article, I had added an internal link from the "Groin Guard" text to the Jockstrap article. As you can read in the jockstrap article, that undergarment was originally designed for supporting the male genitalia during sports. As you can read in the Jockstrap section, an "oversized cup and jock combined into a single item which has layered foam padding that protects the groin, kidneys and abdomen is used in boxing and Muay Thai". Look at the images in the Jockstrap section and you can see, for example, the "Modern Shock Doctor Jockstrap". These are groin guards. The top right of the jockstrap article shows a man in a 'fashion jockstrap'. I get the impression that you both reverted my edits because you believed them to be vandalism. You saw the image of the muscled man or have certain associations when reading the word "jockstrap", which made you believe my edits were an act of vandalism. Here is what annoys me very much: when I undid your revisions, I clearly stated in the edit summaries "What I improved wasn't vandalism." and "Can't you guys at least add a reason why you're undoing my change?", and yet you keep reverting my edits and Jim1138 even added to my Talk page that my edits "appear to constitute vandalism". First of all: you are giving me a bad name. Also, you clearly didn't investigate thoroughly enough what changes I had made; what I linked to and how the clause and article are related. Then there is WP:AGF, I'm trying to help. And all I get in return is two people who revert the edits I made in good faith, one of whom states what I did looked like an act of WP:VAN. Finally, you are both wasting my time. Why do I need to write all this down, only so I can hopefully show to you that my edits were not meant as vandalism? What a waste of time and energy. It makes me sad. --82.170.113.123 (talk) 02:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Dancing with the Stars (Greece season 1)
Can I now move the article here? Eurofan2005 (talk) 07:57, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Mulders48
I saw that you left a warning at Mulders48's page for removing a COI template. Just so you know, he blanked his talk page a few hours ago, including the two warnings it had for removing speedy-deletion templates. I've left a note there explaining this, but I imagine he'll delete it too. Should I revert him if he does, so any other editors who catch him removing templates know that he has a history? — further, Francophonie&#38;Androphilie sayeth naught (Je vous invite à me parler) 08:02, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It is OK for people to remove most things from their talk page. Removal usually is assumed to mean that the item was read. I use wp:huggle which keeps track of the number of warnings during the past few days. I think wp:twinkle does as well. So, it does not usually help avoid warning level advancement. So, there really is no need to post such a notice on the user's talk page. Thanks for keeping watch! Jim1138 (talk) 08:15, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry about that! Though I use Twinkle, and I haven't noticed it registering previous warnings... is there a software feature I'm not noticing? — further, Francophonie&#38;Androphilie sayeth naught (Je vous invite à me parler) 08:20, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello!

I am new and I don't know how this system works (not even, how to reply your message, I'll try). In fact, I wanted to write an explanations omewhere, but I couldn't find where to do it. The reason for removing an errourneous paragraph was that there was a claim that Stephania would be poisonous and aristolochid acid from Aristolochia (a totally different species) was mentioned (but without reference). This confusion between Stephanania and Aristolochia is known to have happened sometimes, because both plants have similar Chinese names (hang fang ji vs. guang fang hi). Nowadays, Stephania supplements are carefully checked and one should get only real (totally non-poisonous) stephania. (My reference was Buhner's book, Healing Lyme.)

I wish you didn't return that paragraph back! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.175.235.151 (talk) 19:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the help!
Thank you for removing the vandalism from my talk page. ... disco spinster   talk  23:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
 Hair Talk 06:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

editing wars
at the metalcore page the other "warring" party did many edits I restore sourced material, that one person removes and "reverts" I am in hurricane decimated area. I help the page when I can. I was in that scene since 1983. that page has been really getting more accurate all the time. then for a month this person comes in and makes edits some dont even make sense. maybe you can help maybe not, I cant tonight. I already contacted another editor. this person has multiple warnings from multiple editors to not vandalize etc. thank you for your time. that person changed sourced and true material those disruptive edits arent helping to teach readers an accurate picture of just what happened. I added other new edits those were changed as well even though TRUE. I restored sourced material and restored the protected version. now I have a warning. I can explain in detail, my edits. this is the person doing the crazy edits without using the talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Omair00 CombatMarshmallow (talk) 02:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

El Norte
Hi there, regarding your message in my talk page. I apologize for my lack of explanation. I removed text from the references section, as it already has a reflist. The website for the newspaper would be better suited for external links, and the es:El Norte was duplicated as a link to the Spanish article. Ajaxfiore (talk) 06:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

History of Armenia template edit war
The user 75.51.172.205 is confirmed to be Frost778 (see my talk page). He has been edit warring with me for a week now, and regardless of how many times I invite him to a discussion, he categorically ignores it (see the Armenian History template page). He is currently banned for that reason, which is why he is warring on non-protected pages unsigned. I already undid his edit 3 times, and don't want to break the 3 edit war rule. Seeing as you agree with the way Til Eulenspiegel and I believe the template should be, I believe you should contribute to the talk page of the template and undo his edits, if you have the time and patience of course. Thank you. Kentronhayastan (talk) 04:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * I presume you are requesting that Ram Charan Teja be renamed? The article name Ram Charan is currently in use. Would Ram Charan (actor) be acceptable?
 * His name seems to not have a common form. "Ram Charan Teja", "Ram Charan Tej", and "Ram Charan" are used by different sources. This would make it hard to justify renaming the article.
 * Internet Movie Data Base (IMDB) and India Glitz have his name as "Ram Charan Teja".
 * The Hindu gives his name as "Ram Charan Tej".
 * It would seem that he does not have a settled name. What I would suggest is that you change his name in the article from "Ram Charan Teja" to "Ram Charan" and cite a *very* reliable source that gives his name as such. The source should read  Ram Charan  Make sure it is reliable as a Tweet could potentially have been sent by someone else. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 07:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Peter Urby
Re Keith Urban and the reference to his real name is from an interview posted on line with Andy Ball he only asks Keith is this his real name and yes it is BUT you have his birth name as Urban and when infact even his father Robert had the surname Urbahn. I am a cousin of Robert and would like to correct the name as I am also in possesion both Roberts listed birth certificates and Keiths and it is Urbahn. You cannot change someones birth name when you feel like it. I see no harm in correcting this.

Changing your name is fine but your listed N.Z. birth certificate clearly states Urbahn and his father was originally before that Urbanski.

Peter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterurby (talk • contribs) 07:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. The references that you removed cite his name as Urban and not Urbahn. As that is all there is to go on, (I don't have access to the birth certificates) it would be contrary to Wikipedia policy to use an unverifiable source (the birth certificate). Can you find a reliable source; a biography, a news article from a major publisher, (preferably online) that gives his name as Urbahn? Blogs, and sources that are not checked would be considered unreliable. You need to trump the existing sources. If so, just replace the references for Urban with the biographical one stating Urbahn and you would be safe. I probably won't undo your change, but there are dozens who would. Unfortunately, there are many who make stuff up which forces policy like this. If I can help, let me know here. Good luck Jim1138 (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jim, yes after doing my family history i have found a lot out AND do not wish to embarass or hurt Keith or his family in any way shape or form....but I cannot unfortunately handle name change after name change especially if incorrect. It's just the truth with the listed birth certificates and really his father's surname originally isnt even as per what is listed. As you state you cannot use a birth certificates and I would NOT DO THIS to him either. If I can find in old threads which relates to Robert's reference to why he changed his name to Urban if you like; I think I spotted it somewhere in a few years ago interview but whether that is still alive on the internet i dont know yet. Peter — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterurby (talk • contribs) 08:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigations/Bormalagurski
Hello, I reverted the page in question back to the version when the case was closed and archived in early September. I thought a new case would have to be opened in order to discuss the matter, instead of editing the closed case. Was I wrong in doing so? If so, I apologize. Regards, --UrbanVillager (talk) 19:15, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a bit suspect when one blanks a sockpuppet page with one's name listed. Yes. Jim1138 (talk) 19:22, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Re:Editing Robert Gass
Hi Jim,

you wrote me:

Please do not add commentary or your own personal analysis to Wikipedia articles, as you did to Robert Gass. Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you. Jim1138 (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to update some outdated information on this entry, and don't understand why my edits were removed, as they seem to comply with wikipedia's neutrality rules.

I first tried to make set of changes that cluebot reverted, and tried to make them again. Then you reverted my edits. I've now reported the cluebot error to Wikipedia. But would like your input as to how to make the entry compy with yours and wiki's standards.

Thanks so much! Esti

p.s. I might use the "four tides" incorrectly. Will try to follow your lead on wiki etiquette, but here it goes.

EstiG55 (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Kuril Islands
Hello, I'm 61.203.119.16. I'm sorry I had removed some content without explaining. Editing from 61.203.119.0/24 has been blocked (disabled) by Materialscientist, therefore I am distressed. By the way do you know that Kuril Islands and the southern part of Shelikan is under Russian "occupation" from 1945. The San Francisco Peace Treaty between the Allied Powers and Japan from 1951 states that Japan must give up all claims to the Kuril islands and the southern part of Shelikan, but it also does not recognize the Soviet Union's sovereignty over the Kuril Islands and the southern part of Shelikan.It is seldom known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute

Please, read Treaty of San Francisco (Article 2, Article 25 and Article 26). Please, compare Treaty of San Francisco with Treaty of Saint Petersburg. Please, compare Treaty of San Francisco with Treaty of Portsmouth.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco

You will know the truth. I show a map that has been issued officially in Japan.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cccp/camera/HoppouRyoudo/MAP_Kyoukasho/S48_1.jpg

Please, check border lines in it. I hope that the honest truth will appear in Wikipedia. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.160.89.164 (talk) 01:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The island chain is widely considered to be under Russian control. Whether or not that is what is right is another issue. If you wish to change it, you should start a conversation on a talk page and request a discussion. See Requests for comment. I would recommend viewing past discussions to see how they are done. I would strongly advise against changing the articles again until you get wp:consensus. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 03:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Margherita Zalaffi page error
Dear Jim1138, I have corrected your page a few days ago without including a citation, sorry for that. Anyway the birth place of Margherita is wrong, it should be changed from Siderno to Siena. It is correctly reported in this document from the Italian fencing federation:

http://www.federscherma.it/file/18279.pdf

as well as from the Italian Wikipedia page:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margherita_Zalaffi

I hope it helps.

180.149.250.114 (talk) 05:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It is confusing. sports-reference.com gives Siderno as her birthplace. Would you please select the most reliable source, change the birthplace (if necessary) and cite the source? I will add your information to the page, please change it as needed. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 05:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Welcome
I appreciate the welcome. Thank you. 68.200.222.137 (talk) 05:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Manaism
The article was misleading, Wakan, Wakan Tanka is a Native American concept similar to mana, not African. Also, the change to mana proper to read Polynesia instead of America is more accurate as it's a Polynesian concept and Polynesia does not equal America just because of Hawaii. Re-adding my edits.207.237.208.153 (talk) 07:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Chlorosome
136.152.131.23 (talk) 08:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC) Dear Jim: The thing I am editing is to tell Chinese users not to mix up chlorosomes and chloroplasts. Because of this issue, I lost a huge number of points in the last midterm. I have almost been killed by this course, so I need to warn more other Chinese-speaking users not to mix up such 2 concepts.
 * Not a good idea for Wikipedia. What would it look like if everybody of all languages used Wikipedia for their crib sheets? Please don't replace it. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 08:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Paoli Dam
i want to add some information about sex scene of actress paoli dam which some orthodox guys are preventing me,i have proper and valid links for the edit which i want to make but they are still preventing me so i am posting that information below which has valid and proper links and i request you to post it on actress paoli dam page please.

In 2011 Actress Paoli Dam Starred In Bengali Film Of Sri Lankan Director Vimukti Jayasundara,Chatrak(2011) Was Screened In Cannes Film Festival And Was A Subject Of Controversy Because Of A 3 Minute Nude Sex Scene Featuring Paoli Dam And Bengali Actor Anubrata Basu Of Gandu Fame,The Sex Scene Was Highly Erotic In Nature Featuring Completely Nude Paoli Dam Receiving Oral Sex From Anubrata,Later Paoli Dam Said That Scene Was Required By The Script And Many Hollywood Actresses Too Have Given Nude Sex Scene And she Is No Exception In This Field ,Later In An Interview Paoli Dam Said "Yes, I was completely nude. So was my co-star and in the scene the girl is getting all the pleasure! The scene involves love, sex and pleasure" she further said "We don’t wear clothes and make love, do we? Then why should we do that in cinema?"

Paoli Dam's Sex Scene

please post this information ON actress paoli dam page please it has valid and proper links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.247.139 (talk) 09:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You can put this request on talk:Paoli Dam. Add to request that the edit be made. I would suggest that you shorten the length quite a bit as the article is not that long. One, maybe two sentences. Good luck Jim1138 (talk) 09:46, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

please help
i put that request about actress paoli dam sex scene with edits with valid links but they aren't accepting it please i request that you make an edit on paoli dam page of above information mentioned by me please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.247.139 (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Sri Chinmoy
Hi Jim, Ref your edit of the article on Sri Chinmoy. Unfortunately Sri Chinmoy is no longer with us, so you are wrong in your statement. He passed on October 11th 2008 if memory serves me right. Also the "addition" I made was just to reinstall the quote from the new york post that has been on the page for many years. it gets removed ever so often, so I reenter it on a regular basis. If someone questions the truth in that article they should contact Anne Phulela Carlton of New York, NY, for verification, I did. kind regards Vivek. Vivvvvek (talk) 18:21, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism help
User Ronaldoyan has been vandalizing countless number of articles. I have been reverting his vandalism's. He keeps getting banned but comes back with a new account. Recently he has been concentrating his vandalism on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alashkert_Martuni and i have been reverting every single change he made and i am the one getting threatened with a ban for trying to fix the article? How is that fair? Ninetoyadome (talk) 04:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It done not matter if you are right or not. Stop the edit war and use other methods. Got that? You will be blocked. Jim1138 (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Blizzardstep0
지금 당신은 완전히 당신이 끝 헛소리하지 붙잡는거야? ;)가 나는 이유는 당신을 좋아하고 알고 있었다. 건배! --Tgeairn (talk) 06:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * (wow, running that back through a translator lost a lot of what I meant...) Cheers! --Tgeairn (talk) 06:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

BDS page
Hi Jim, fairly new user, just trying to understand what or where your 'talk' points in the BDS page were changed or deleted by me? Although new, I was fairly careful to follow the rules and only add to conversation strings where I thought my points were relevant. Thanks, --Owaisr (talk) 06:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * As a frequent stalker of Jim's talk page, I'll try to answer your question. Your edit here removed the previous editor's comments. It's likely that this was due to an edit conflict (the previous editor saved their changes while you were making yours, and then your changes saved 'over' theirs). When you go to save your changes on a page, if you get an 'edit conflict' notice be sure to pay close attention. If you go ahead and save your changes, it will wipe out the intervening changes. --Tgeairn (talk) 06:49, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Moving the page
Did not know there was the procedure. Sorry and thanks for the information. Cheers LukGasz (talk) 08:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Summaries
Hi there JIM, AL from Portugal here,

regarding this message (please see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:217.129.65.198), i begin saying i already have an account, this one. More: i am not always up to par when it comes to summaries (i.e. no tolerance to vandalism, "feed the troll", etc), but i write summaries 99,9999999% of the time, so fail to see the purpose of your message, must have been due to one of those rare instances where i do not write one.

I sometimes edit logged off because i have an idea and rush to make it "happen", lest i forget, have nothing to hide man.

Keep up the good work - --AL (talk) 15:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, didn't even make an edit around that time and all edits have summaries. Will apologize on AL's page. Jim1138 (talk) 17:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * No problems whatsoever, happy editing yourself :) --AL (talk) 18:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Must have been an edit conflict, apologies --212.9.126.106 (talk) 20:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:BITE
It has come to my attention that you appear to have bitten a newcomer. I just wanted to remind you to be careful with your warnings, to assume good faith (especially with new/IP users) and to use common sense when reverting vandalism. Thank you, and keep doing the good work you do for Wikipedia! Coppaar ( talk ) 00:43, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * lol. yeah, right! "Newbie" editors who cannot read, understand and/or follow a series of warnings SHOULD be bitten until they leave as the "benefit" of their "contributions" the will certainly be outweighed by the efforts to clean up after them. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  01:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If you have a suggestion on getting people to listen requests to follow policy that does not involve deleting their work, I'm all ears. Jim1138 (talk) 02:49, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I acknowledge that it's essential to give no quarter against vandals, even the noobs, but the user in question may not have been vandalizing, based on my review of his offending edits. In addition, all three warnings were added in the same minute, giving the user no chance to "read, understand and/or follow a series of warnings". The latter two warnings were removed by an administrator after I questioned their legitimacy on WP:ANV. This is not an attack on your editing style in any way; I'm on WP:RCP as well, and I too have found myself engaged in a frenzy of automated reverts and warnings, and I only wanted to try to prevent this problem from recurring (The user was reported at ANV largely due to your rapid warnings). After all, WP:BITE is in place for a reason. Coppaar  ( talk ) 02:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * He wasn't vandalizing, he was not sourcing his contributions. Given that his edits were that of a genre warrior, I have little sympathy: he is wasting server storage.
 * In this case, there also seems to be a bug in Huggle where it was giving the warnings even though the edits were old. I'll probably report this even though there is no work being done on Huggle currently. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 02:58, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

A note on notable persons
Perhaps an exception should be made for list of notable people in small towns that you know nothing about, Towns like Bainbridge Island have plenty of 'small town heroes' that may not justify a new page but certainly shouldn't be excluded from a facts page about their town. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.31.184.4 (talk) 06:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There are exceptions to the policy: wp:listpeople. If there is no source for notability, how does one know if the person is the town drunk? There seem to be many attempts to list such people. Small towns such as Wapakoneta, Ohio do produce truly notable people. If you are interested in changing policy, start a discussion cheers Village pump. I cannot make nor change policy :( Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 06:25, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

gay rights
Thank you, Jim1138!

I am the original author of the information on employment policy on the Kings University College (edmonton) wikipedia page. I have been fighting for a while to keep it up as people keep deleting the information, probably because it is something the university would rather do behind closed doors. I noticed you restored the section (employment policy) last time it was deleted. Just wanted to say thanks.

Steve — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.200.35.227 (talk) 00:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Your huggle template does not phase me, mortal.
According to General Mills, Bisquick was invented in 1930 after one of their top sales executives met an innovative train dining car chef on a business trip. After the sales executive complimented the chef on his deliciously fresh biscuits, the dining car chef shared that he used a pre-mixed biscuit batter he created consisting of lard, flour, baking powder and salt. The chef then stored his pre-mixed biscuit batter on ice in his kitchen ahead of time, enabling him to be able to bake fresh biscuits quickly on the train every day. As soon as the sales executive returned from that business trip, the idea of creating Bisquick was born.

The recipe was adapted, using hydrogenated oil, thus eliminating the need for refrigeration. (Sesame oil was originally used as a preservative, identified on the box as "Ingredient S" over the years). Bisquick was officially introduced on grocers' shelves in 1931.

Although first promoted for making just biscuits ("90 seconds from package to oven," the slogan read), Bisquick was soon used to prepare a wide variety of baked goods from pizza dough to pancakes to dumplings to snickerdoodle cookies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.41.197 (talk) 01:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You do realize that he reverted your edits to a page that has nothing to do with Bisquick, right? MrChupon (talk) 01:56, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Perceptive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.41.197 (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Your info not in the lead. Why?
Let me know why you think this information can not go to the lead. I see no reason. --Burham (talk) 01:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Per Manual of Style/Lead section: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." Your edit does not fit within this policy. CheersJim1138 (talk) 01:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

It is what I would do. The definition of Bureaucracy would be: Bureaucracy - government by many bureaus, administrators, and petty officials. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bureaucracy. with the addition: More recent theories have stressed the role of managerial cliques, occupational interest groups, or individual power-seekers in creating politicized organizations characterized by internal conflict.

This is a clear definition which differ ADMINISTRATION, as executive branch only, from illegal seize of political power by government non-elected officers i.e. 'Bureaucracy'. If you agree with the simplified above definition we can re-edit the lead. However because a few admires of the bureaucratic underworld I added several citation there. I will appreciate for you help with setting up a short lead plus supporting subsection, but if you do not want help me let me keep conversation with opponents on base of their own arguments. They needed this links to stop contradicting the pejorative meaning of word ‘Bureaucracy’--Burham (talk) 01:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

You start EDITION WAR on me. I ask for arguments. You have mine in TALK page. You consensus or not have to be supported by arguments.--Burham (talk) 01:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There are many arguments in Template talk:Forms of government arguing against the inclusion of bureaucracy. The consensus is against including bureaucracy. Please do not be disruptive and go against wp:consensus. Get consensus first, then change it. That is how Wikipedia works. Jim1138 (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Stop talking about consensus! Start giving arguments! You have no arguments give me what you mean by conasensus. CONSENSUS, CONSENSUS but you have no answer to this basic questions. It is simple CATCH 22 what you do. What are the many arguments you mentioned? MANY lafable :))) be specific. Ther is no rule consensus first - after change. -WHAT you are taking about? I wonder how you think, except that you against somthing what you dislike and that is one and only argument. --Burham (talk) 16:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I need not ask for comments to make changes and any work around. I make the change you disregard say me why? This is what free edited encyclopedia is. For that I need not give you cite it is obvious. I do not care how many editors revert me until they have no logical reason to do so. wp:concensus; say nothing I need ask anybody to make the changes – show me the line. I think you misleading me or make mockery – it is BAD ATTITUDE. Be serious and answer specifically for sections – somewhere  on a page  and you think it is argument. Be serious!--Burham (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2012 (UTC) PS. Mockery and all you do is verry bad behaviou--Burham (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * No cite, no consensus, no edit. Jim1138 (talk) 17:54, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

This what I thought you have no section to support your clames. And you pretend to be what a PATROL. I will say you: go away from me and my edits. Your treaths do not make any result and you lead yourself in to problem.--Burham (talk) 17:58, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

What invitation, to what comments? I am lost. Who and what edits will revert? Who bothering whome? You revert my edits, have no argues only YOU HAVE no CONSENSUS and no exact what rules you a talking about. No I am bothering you? Just do not play on Wikipedia, no body will bother you.--Burham (talk) 18:07, 18 November 2012 (UTC)