User talk:Joan arden murray/Archive 2020-2

Your submission at Articles for creation: Nancy Dillow has been accepted
 Nancy Dillow, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article. You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer. Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 07:47, 10 March 2020 (UTC) thank you for your expert help!Joan arden murray (talk) 11:28, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Nancy_Dillow help desk] .
 * If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Some useful links and tips
Welcome Joan arden murray! Now that you've joined Wikipedia, there are registered editors!

Hello Joan arden murray. Welcome to Wikipedia and thank you for your contributions!

I'm W.carter, one of the other editors here, and I hope you decide to stay and help contribute to this amazing repository of knowledge. Alternatively, leave me a message at my talk page or type  here on your talk page and someone will try to help. To get some practice editing you can use a sandbox. You can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Mypage/sandbox&action=edit&preload=Template:User_Sandbox/preload create your own personal sandbox] for use any time. It's perfect for working on bigger projects. Then for easy access in the future, you can put  on your userpage.

Please remember to: The best way to learn about something is to experience it. Explore, learn, contribute, and don't forget to have some fun!
 * Always sign your posts on talk pages. You can do this either by clicking on the OOUI JS signature icon LTR.png button on the edit toolbar or by typing four tildes  at the end of your post. This will automatically insert your signature, a link to your talk page, and a timestamp.
 * Leave descriptive edit summaries for your edits. Doing so helps other editors understand what changes you have made and why you made them.

 Sincerely, cart -Talk  13:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)    [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:W.carter&action=edit&section=new&preload=Template:Welcome_to_Wikipedia/user-talk_preload (Leave me a message)]

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Some basics
Hi again! To make a link to an article, you put double square brackets around the name of the article. So Franklin Brownell becomes Franklin Brownell. Take a look in the editing window and you will see the difference.

To make a reference you put at the end. If you look at this example in the editing window, ignore the "nowiki" text, I had to put it there or it would have just turned into a reference on this page. :-) A ref should always be made after the full stop.

Between the "ref marks" you can put plain text or you could preferably use the fill in form of a template like Template:Cite book to give it the Wikipedia style. The template is marked by the double curly brackets –  and a preface describing the source, such as book, journal, web, etc. Take a look at the differences between the ref you added, my first fixing of the ref and with the cite book template added. I think you can see what changed. It is also great to add a link to the book at Google books or some other trusted repository like a library main data base, such as the LIBRIS we have here in Sweden or your University of Toronto Libraries Catalogue. Do not use commercial sites like Amazon or community-created lists like Goodreads.

I think that will do for today's lesson. :-) All the best, cart -Talk  10:55, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I have read your lesson and will try and understand it. It does take a lot of time for me to do this.Joan arden murray (talk) 12:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I have left you an answer on my talk page. cart -Talk  13:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

No need for you to be formal with my name, here we are all just working colleagues and I'm mostly "Cart" to people here or the full W.carter. That is not my real name, like most Wikipedians, I use a nom de plume when I edit here. --cart -Talk  09:04, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Ok, fixed. You almost did it correctly, the trouble was that you had one book and two different pages in it you wanted to use as references. That can be tricky. There are several systems of making/adding refs in an article and I see that there are a couple of them used simultaneously in the Laura Muntz Lyall article. I think I'll teach you the one I find easiest, and I think it could work for you too since it is clse to the academic way of writing references. I saw that you tried it in some cases before, example: (Nowell, 7). You can use this form if you want to use the book once or as many time you like as reference. You can of course use it for several books in one article too.


 * First of all you have to define/introduce the book you want to reference on the article page. You do that by adding it in a Bibliography section. Like I did here. Remember to include all the code signs you see there, even the ===.


 * Once the book is added, you use another code than the usual "ref". You use the curly brackets, the code abbreviation, last name, year and page. Like this: (once again ignore the "nowiki" you see in the editing window). You can see how I added those codes to the article here.


 * That way you only have to write the code for the book once, and you can use it as many times you like in the article.


 * Also please remember the code == on either side of Further reading when you add it. That is the code that makes the words into a heading. The number of = corresponds with the hierarchy of sections and subsections. I have fixed that for you here. Take a look.


 * I hope the above mentioned ref system will work better for you, otherwise please let me know and we will try something else. cart -Talk  14:37, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I will get back to you on this in a day or so. It's the weekdays now and I'm rather busy with my normal job. Just be patient for a while. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  08:30, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Some fixing
Ok, I've gone over you edits and corrected things. Here's what was done.
 * Florence Helena McGillivray - Not quite right. You didn't define the source in the Sources/Biography section and you used the academic notation system, not the wiki-system in the second ref. Both are now fixed. Take a look.
 * Laura Muntz Lyall - You almost got it right. :-) The book was already defined so it was ok to use the system. But when you use that, you don't need the, it's either or, not both in the same ref. That was what cause the error. I have removed the and after that everything looks fine.
 * Franklin Brownell - I had to take a real close look at this, and it needs some explaining. An article's name is always the most commonly used name for the subject per WP:COMMONNAME (read this). In this case he is mostly named just 'Franklin Brownell', that is how he is mentioned in all major sources and even in the library entry about the Information form you linked to, so the article name stays as it is. I have however created a page Peleg Franklin Brownell that redirects to the article, so that name is covered now.


 * When you tried to correct the name in the article, you went about this in the wrong way, that is why your edits were reverted. You did it without referencing reliable material to why you did it, and you also changed his name in some of the sources and links. This disrupted some of the links + you should never change how a person is named in the source. After some checking, I found entries about him in some very reliable sources and added them to the change, so that anyone can see why I corrected this.
 * You can see how names are treated in other articles like those about Elton John, El Greco, Michelangelo, etc. I once wrote an article about Puankhequa, as you can see in Notes a. he is known under 13 names!

Regarding sources, we can never change anything in an article just because you say you know something or have received an e-mail from someone you know. (It was good that you provided the link.) We always need verifiable sources from reliable sites or works. This is because of what I said earlier: We don't know who you are here. We can assume good faith that you really is who you claim to be, but that is all and it's not enough for refs in an article. Tomorrow there may be another person creating the user account 'Joan Murray', saying that she is the author of all those books. We would have no way of knowing which, if any, of these is true. This is the internet, so we need a lot of rules to keep things as right as possible. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  10:19, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I know this is a stupid question but is nowicki the same as ref?Joan arden murray (talk) 13:47, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , No it isn't. Nowiki is a code to let the system know that some text should not be treated as Wikicode.

Comments made about edits
, since you are not used to this site yet, I think you are missing a lot of what is written in the edit summaries for each edit. Not sure you know how to find those comments, so here is a guide.

On each page there is a tab labeled "View history". It is at the top of the page right next to the "Edit" tab. If you click on it, you will see the comments left for each edit made on that page. Those comments are usually just as important to read as the edit itself. Take a look. A while ago, I told you to stay away from the article Joan Murray (art historian), and yet you did edit again. Please do not do so. Also when I corrected your user page, I left a message in the edit summary: "Vital correction: that is an article not an entry, and it's not yours it belongs to the Wikipedia. Do not confuse this site with Linkedin or any social media." I guess you didn't see it since you might not have checked the "View history". Now you have another very experienced editor,, working on that article and they are giving you the same advice I did. So please keep these things in mind. Thanks! <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:42, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , I just sent her an email with an explanation. Some of those edits preceded clear explanation about COI which I have supplied. S Philbrick (Talk)  14:48, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , I just poked around your page, and see you have been helping her - thanks. S Philbrick (Talk)  14:51, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , no problem. Not the first newbie or scholar I've tried to guide. :) Thanks for chiming in, a new angle on things might be good. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:54, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * you are able to do miracles with wikipedia so i`ll ask another question. the entry on oscar cahen (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oscar_Cah%C3%A9n&campaign=external-machine-translation) only comes up when you use the accent mark on Cahén. are you able to make the entry come up using the name without an accent? s often in english-speaking Canada people do forget. besides, cahen was a member of the Group known as Painters Eleven, founded in toronto or oshawa depending on what source you use. Joan arden murray (talk) 12:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * no rush about these questions as i know you are doing your day job, but here`s another. in the wikipedia entry for frances jones bannerman, i wanted to add under Further Reading, the following catalogue (you`ll see i was using the template)but only the second author got added so i need to know what to do:


 * Joan arden murray (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Haha! I'm certainly not a miracle worker here, that is for the young folks. :-) I had my 60th birthday a few years back, and when I first came here I was just as lost as you are now. Some years later, I've picked up a trick or two.


 * These is already an existing redirect at Oscar Cahen to guide people searching for him here on English Wikipedia. That's about as much as we can do. I did check his data sheet on Wikidata (the main data bank for all Wiki projects), and it has both spellings. It is up to external search engines like Google, Bing, Yahoo, whatever, to decide when an entry is shown or not. Not much we can do about that. I did however add the alternate spelling to the article. Hopefully this will help the search engines locate the WP article even with that spelling.


 * You did help! thank you.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:46, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Well done with the template! When you have several people working on a book, you need to be very specific or the computer reading the code will not "understand" what is what. They are really stupid machines that way. You have to number them, like you can see I've done now. For good measure, I made it even more specific and added the "author-" before the names for clarity. Take a look. That way, one of them can't be confused with being the editor. You do the same way if there are more than one editor. In that case you number them too: "editor-last1= |editor-first1= |editor-last2= ...etc". Also, you can't have more than one isbn number. I removed one of them, if you prefer the other one, please change it. Instead I added a link to the book's entry in the Toronto University Library Catalogue; that way people can find both isbn numbers and more info about the book anyway. Btw, when you have several sources in the 'Further reading' section, it's always nice to keep them in alphabetical order, I think you might have guessed that though. ;-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:24, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

THANK YOU! I saw the show of the two artists from AGNS, A real DISCOVERY one!Joan arden murray (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC) By the way, mentioned the brownell solution to the head of the NGC Library and she said "THAT`S A SMART SOLUTION!" Thought you wd like to hear!Joan arden murray (talk) 23:46, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That's kind of you and her. Give her my best. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  08:37, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * An oscar cahen scholar also was grateful to you! Now today`s problem (no rush) the entry on John Young Johnstone in French translates into unbelievable english. i wd edit if i cd sign on but i can`t. the artist merits a chapter in prakash so this ref shd be mentioned. can you do something? Thank you!Joan arden murray (talk) 12:38, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Let's start with some new basic info. When you start a new topic, you should also start a new section about that here on you talk page. That makes it easier for everyone, including you and me, to follow that discussion. You do that by making a heading using the == before and after the subject. It is also polite to link to the the article using the two square brackets of either side of the article's name.


 * So far I have been checking your page each day to see what you were up to, but we usually don't work like that here. If we want to alert someone, we 'ping' each other. That way we know that someone want's to get hold of us. You do that by using the double brackets and the word ping and a divider and the user name of the editor we are pinging. If you want to ping me, you write take a look in the code, and if I want to ping you, I write . You also have to sign the post during the same edit, that will activate the ping.
 * From this week forward, I don't have as much time as before to work on the Wikipedia, so I will not be checking in on you as often as before. It would help if you pinged me when you want something.

Sybille Pantazzi
When you get a chance, cd you look in my sandbox? I am working on this entry now. I have a reference for her early life, paragraph 2, but i don`t know how to cite it. it is http://www.cesianu-racovitza.ro/vasile-pantazzi/. i will try to ping you. Joan arden murray (talk) 13:16, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi! The ping worked perfectly and good that you made a new section here on the talk page for the subject. I've checked some of your edits, and you have made great progress indeed since we first met. Well done! I will take a look at the draft in the sandbox as soon as I get the time. In the meanwhile, could you please start to add links in the draft. I saw that you have done that in George Campbell Tinning, so you seems to know how it's done. Basic tips: A link should only be for words or places that might be hard to understand for the average reader or words of interest. A link should only be made once in the main text: The first time it is mentioned. As you might have noticed, you can make the link fit the language in the article by using the divider | between the name of the article and what you want to write if you can't find an article with the exact name you are looking for.
 * Example (take a look in the coding): John Young Johnstone's style was Impressionism. He was one of the true Impressionists.
 * Until later, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Sorry, forgot to answer you question. You cite things found on the web in a very similar way a you do with books. Instead of {{cite book |title=... and so on, you write {{cite web |title=... and so on. You can see all the parameters you can should and could use for that in: Template:Cite web. For web pages, you sometimes have to be a bit of a detective to find all the facts. You look at the article, at the top of the page and at the bottom. For this link I can find the following: |url=http://www.cesianu-racovitza.ro/vasile-pantazzi/ |title=Vasile Pantazzi |last1=Cornea |first1=Vasile |last2=Mihailescu |first2=Alexandru Stefan |date=2020 |website=www.cesianu-racovitza.ro |publisher=Familia Cesianu Racovitza |access-date= 3 May 2020 <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:03, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you, will try!Joan arden murray (talk) 14:22, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * okay, done. when you can, read and tweak!Joan arden murray (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, will do. That will probably be some time tomorrow after work (Swedish time zone). <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Wonderful! thanks so much. if you feel the article is okay after you tweak, go ahead and introduce it to the web.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm going to start working on the draft now, so please don't make any edits now or we will end up with edit conflicts. Hoping that you will learn from my corrections, I'm going to keep a small notebook of what I do here on your talk page. I'll tell you when I'm done and you can take over again. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:50, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Notes on working the text
Ok, I've done some editing on the article, take a look at it and read my notes below. There are some things that needs to be sorted out.
 * You need to make sections using the == even in the draft, it makes for easier editing and better overview of the article.
 * Use the * to make bulleted lists.
 * No need for the no. in |issue= the number is enough.
 * References found on the web are usually not listed among the books and journals at the end of the article, they are inserted directly in the text between the two ref-ref markings. I've moved the Vasile Pantazzi ref up to paragraph 2 as you mentioned above. Please move it to the exact proper place if it's in the wrong place.
 * Use both last names for {{sfn|… not just one of the last names or the link will not be made.
 * There seems to be a book missing from the list. You have cited one Stephen 2020, but I can't find it anywhere.
 * The Suddon book should also be in the list, not in the text, now added and fixed since the author/editor-thing was a bit tricky. It is renamed Pantazzi since Suddon isn't listed as the author.
 * Further reading is only for books that are not mentioned of used in the article. Those used as refs are called Sources or Bibliography, and they are a subsection to References.
 * You are too liberal with capital letters, that is not the Wikipedia style. Also titles are very seldom used.
 * Books titles or names of works of art in the text, should always be written in Italics. The code for that is to put two single primes on each side of the title.
 * Please remember to use a totally neutral language! Never use praise, grand words or emotionally charged words in the text. A few quotes of someone else's praise for the subject in a text are allowed, but never for the encyclopedic text. This can be painful for a WP editor when it's a subject close to your heart, but it is how the guidelines WP:Manual of Style tells us it should be.
 * The places of her birth and death are listed in the text and infobox so no need to have it in the leade too.
 * The subjects name is always written with Bold letters in the leade. The code for that is to put three single primes on each side of the name.
 * No need to explain the English vs Romanian spelling. Used the spelling in the WP article about it and that article will take care of that info.
 * There is some code that should be used in birth/death info in the leade, don't think about it too much, just copy it from some other article.
 * Numbers greater than 10 are usually written with numbers.
 * Vague words like "many" are always frowned upon. Once again: read WP:Words to watch.
 * The full name is always given in the leade even if it is not the article's name. After that, only her last name is used in the article except when it's in a name like Sybille Pantazzi Memorial Lecture or when talking about two persons with the same name like Sybille and Ethel Pantazzi.
 * Use the nonbreaking hyphen between years.
 * "It might be argued" sounds horrible to a Wikipedian ear. We deal only in facts not speculations. Please try to find another way of writing this or remove the sentence.
 * If you break a text by sections, the ref must be given for both sections, not just at the end of the last section.
 * Try to think of good ways to break up a long text to make it easier for readers. I've done a first sectioning, please change it if you like.
 * "various scholars is at various institutions" sounds very vague so frowned upon, try to be more specific.
 * There are some things that are not really refs but should not be in the main text. To deal with these I've created a Notes subsection. You use another kind of code for that: {{efn|… Take a look in the text.
 * I've added a "citation needed" at the end of the section without any ref. It sounds a bit like it's your own observation and that is a no-no. See: WP:No original research

A lot of things to think about and learn yet, but still a big improvement since your first edits. :-) When you have fixed the things I've pointed out in the text, you need to go on and make links in the text. The network of links is the vascular system of the Wikipedia. There are a lot of places, institutions and interesting words that should be made as links for readers. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:51, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Will take some time to digest. i fixed alan suddon right away. he wrote an article on SP. Stephen is the web piece, name a mistake.Joan arden murray (talk) 18:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I know it is a lot to take in. I actually feel a bit bad dumping it all on you like this, but explanations for my edits were necessary and you can take your time looking at this. I'll fix the multiple mentions of the web page and we can get back to that later, no need to pile on any extra right now. I'll add a little "gift" for you in the draft in a while. :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:57, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * To clarify the Alan Suddon point, here is a description of the item that includes Pfaff, Suddon, and Spellar in it! Hugh Anson Cartwright held a sale in 1983 of 263 of her books with a catalogue: Victorian & Edwardian Illustrated Books and Decorative Bindings from the Collection of Sybille Pantazzi (Toronto, Anson-Cartwright Books, 1983). The catalogue contains a biographical essay by Pfaff, a memoir by Alan Suddon, and a bibliography of what she published by Randall Speller and Larry Pfaff. Pfaff`s bio sketch (pp 1-2) is titled SYBILLE PANTAZZI. Suddon`s section is titled S.P.: A BRIEF MEMOIR (p.3), Spellar and Pfaff`s section, SYBILLE PANTAZZI: A BIBLIOGRAPHY OH HER WRITINGS (pp.4-6).

Also, i must confess my ignorance. how do i do a link? do i use a URL from a template?Joan arden murray (talk) 22:37, 4 May 2020 (UTC) I LOVE YOUR GIFT! MARVELOUS!Joan arden murray (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC) Question: in my first ref, bradshaw, the article wasn`t actually signed, bradshaw was the editor and i know that she wrote it. is that okay? Joan arden murray (talk) 23:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying the Suddon-source. Such anthologies (for lack of a better word) are always a nightmare to cite correctly in refs. The best thing to do is to just mention one or the main the author and then go with the page number. I moved the"S.P.: A MEMOIR" from |title=... to |section=... for clarity.
 * About the links, I've written about tome a couple of times but somehow you seem to have missed it. If you look at my first post in this section, the one beginning with "Hi! The ping worked perfectly...", you'll see some info. The basics are, you just put the double square brackets around a or some word(s) and a link to another WP article is made if that article exists and has the same spelling. If it works, the link turns blue and you can click on it, if not it will be red and you have to try again according to what I wrote above. So look in the code for this: painting with brackets becomes painting and the plural is written paintings. There is some more to this, but I'll get to it once you have tried it out. It's always better with in-work examples.
 * Glad you liked the images! I usually do a search in the Wiki image repository (where I'm also active as a photographer) when I'm working on an article, to see if something interesting turns up.
 * Don't worry about the Bradshaw ref. Obituaries are not often signed and many such sources found online are usually just credited to "staff writer".In this case it doesn't hurt to put the name there; if anyone wants to contact the publisher to verify it, they will get the same answer.
 * I saw that you realized that the photo in your Confessions of a Curator actually had copyright. BUT, there is a small loophole we can use once the article is in the main WP. English Wikipedia has a special dispensation to use copyright pictures under very strict rules and regulations. They can only be small or cropped versions of the original, photos of people can only be used if the person is dead, no other copyright free images exists for use here, it can only be used in one article, and so on. Plus you have to fill in some legal forms. Once the article is ready, I can use this and fix it so that we can use a version of that photo in the article. All this is covered in Non-free content.
 * Btw, I see that you always open a page at the top "Edit" tag when you write. That can be rather tiresome with long texts. You don't have to do it that way, next to every section heading there is a small tag with blue text that says: [ edit ] so you can just click on that and start at the latest section. --<em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  09:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * you always tell me what i need to hear. thank you. that section bit really helped clean up the biblio. i will try a link.Joan arden murray (talk) 11:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Great! I just "toned down" the section names a bit. Writing anythind in all-caps is usually not good manners on Wiki, it is seen as shouting. ;-) I also see that you remove sections now and then from your talk page. Most of us use an archive instead for old stuff we don't need on our talk page. That is a convenient way of keeping things if we want to go back and check something. Do you prefer to just remove texts or do you want me to set up an archive for you? --<em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  11:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * please set up an archive. i do want to save the comments. also, i took out her school in france. haven`t fd a reference yet. the roumanian link says that the pantazzi home is now the townhall in budila. found a pic of it.Joan arden murray (talk) 12:26, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The first attempt to make a link, was a bit wrong. You over-thought it. Take a look at how I've corrected it. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  12:36, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Gotcha! Try this!Joan arden murray (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That picture of the town hall is grand!Joan arden murray (talk) 13:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

i have a problem marking ulrich middledorf. it`s in the german wikipedia.Joan arden murray (talk) 16:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That is understandable! You only make links within the English Wikipedia and the articles here. We very rarely make links between articles in different languages, there are simply too many of them! There are exceptions and special codes to use, but for now, just skip it. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:47, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * how about the Osborne Collection of Early Children`s Books, can`t seem to mark it.Joan arden murray (talk) 17:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah! That was because you hadn't spelled it exactly as the title of the article: Osborne Collection of Early Children's Books. Links are very sensitive and such a small difference as the version of apostrophe makes the difference. The Wikipedia always uses the straight version but you had used a slanted version. There are several versions and they can mess things up. See three types:   ' ’ `   , I've enlarged them for you. I thought I had managed to hunt down and change all the non-Wikipedia versions in the text, but apparently I missed one. In time you will learn to be alert about such things. I usually go to the article and simply copy the heading from it so I know all the different characters are ok. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:08, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * i understand!64.229.117.19 (talk) 18:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What next?Joan arden murray (talk) 13:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Now you need to check the links. I usually do that while I make the links, but we are taking small steps here. There are so many articles here, that you have to make sure the links really go to the article you wanted. And as I wrote before, a link should be made the first time the subject is mentioned. They should aslo be as tidy as possible.
 * So take a look at the following links: Odessa, Russia. This Odessa is the major Odessa so the link is just for Odessa, Russia should not be included in the link. You have linked to World War II, but it is mentioned earlier and the link should be moved to that place. And, most important: You have made a link to Paris Peace Conference. If you click on it, you will find that is goes to a page for all such conferences. You need to find the right one and link to it, either by using the article name or by doing the trick with the divider | I mentioned earlier. There are still a lot of words of interest that should be linked, not all readers have the same high level of education as you do and we need to think about that. Like B.A. and M.A., those titles might not be easy to understand internationally. It is a bit of a balance to link to just enough other articles. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * you mention other words to link?Joan arden murray (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, words that might be interesting to look up and read some more about such as librarian, bibliophile, Romanian naval officer, also whole concepts like 'armistice with the Allies' and '19th century illustrated books'. See what you can find and do. After you're done I'll take over the last part of fixing links and also thinking of what categories the article should be in. Almost finished now! :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:04, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * OkayJoan arden murray (talk) 17:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC) Did what i cd.Joan arden murray (talk) 17:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! {{smiley}} I'll take over from here. I'll leave you some notes on what I do, but you can relax for now. I must say you are an excellent student! If you from time to time have felt the urge to strangle me, that is only natural during the first articles. ;-) When I wrote my first articles, I often broke down in tears and vowed never to continue, yet here I am. A lot of people think it would be nice or cool to write something for WP; yet they never have an inkling about how hard it actually is. Especially here on the English version since it is considered the flag ship and international section, with much higher standards than WPs in other languages. So for you to get this far in such a short time is admirable!


 * I have some errands to run this evening, but I will do the last editing later when I get back. You just rest now. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, dear friend.Joan arden murray (talk) 17:48, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So, finally, the article is in the main space. Yay! It's getting late here now and I'm very tired, so I'll continue with the comments about what I did tomorrow. For now good night! :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  20:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * A THOUSAND THANKS! This entry really mattered to me.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:49, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Final notes
You're welcome, my pleasure to help you with this article. This is just the kind of article that is on most wanted list for Wikipedia. With the general imbalance between what is written about men and women, well written articles about all those unsung great women who made the world better are the most coveted. Below are some notes of what I did at the final stage. You don't have to remember it all right now, but it might be good for you to have some notes of what's involved with creating an article. That's all. I see in the statistics that during the short time it existed yesterday, 25 people read it. Thank you for making such good contributions! <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  09:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I finished the links. Some of them are rather complicated and you need to be a bit of a detective to find suitable articles to link to. If you click on the links, you can see how the "divider trick" works to keep a good language in the text and yet link to other important articles. She lived an interesting life in an interesting time, so reading this article will spur people to move on to other related articles to find out more.
 * The article finally ready to move to the main space.
 * After the move, I added categories. They are listed at the bottom of the page. Take a look. If you can think of any more that are relevant, please add them.
 * I created a talk page for the article: Talk:Sybille Pantazzi. It's a page for discussing the article, should need be. It is also where the article is linked to project groups on Wikipedia, so that other people involved in these specific subjects will know the article is made. They might want to contribute.
 * Since we link to other articles in this article, it was time to see where links might be put in reverse. I did a search and found her mentioned in Nancy Dillow and also some of her books used as references. If you know of any other articles where it might be ok to mention her, link and provide a ref for it, that would be great. Before an article is linked to in other articles, it's called an "orphan".
 * I filled in the form for using a small version of the copyrighted photo. Take a look at it here: File:Sybille Pantazzi.jpg. I estimated the photo was taken during the 1960s, but if you know better please let me know. Perhaps you know the context in which is was taken.
 * Now that I see what you`ve done, I am returning to earlier articles I edited and correcting them. Incidentally, i know there are newspaper articles on SP, i just cdn`t access them. Hard to believe, the Art Gallery of Ontario library had nothing.

You did a terrific job. i am studying the links, quite an art to them!64.229.117.19 (talk) 11:01, 7 May 2020 (UTC) I LOVE THE BARNSTAR!Joan arden murray (talk) 11:04, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Cd you check out Florence Helena McGillvray entry to see if i removed or added the right code? thanksJoan arden murray (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Most of it looked fine, just a couple of things. You had linked Salon and that ended up at one of those "Disambiguation pages" so I've fixed that one. If you accidentally should link to one of these troublesome pages, there is usually an automatic program that does a sweep once a day to check for such things and leave a message at the talk page of the editor. If I hadn't seen it, you would have got such a message as a reminder. I saw that you tried to link "Mary E. Dignam" but failed since the article is at Mary Dignam, I've fixed that. I also added some more links to the article. All in all you seems to have understood what and how links should be made. Well done! :-) I'm so proud of my "student". <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Archive set up
The archive is now in place at the top of this page. I have added some of the content that you deleted. Yes, we can do that, nothing is ever really deleted on Wikipedia, we can always go back in history to see what has been written.

When you want to archive something you just open the latest archive page and cut-paste the text you want to archive at the bottom of that page. We create new archive pages as they are needed, but they can be very long since you have a search function for the archive. In time when you are more used to things, we can make the archiving automatic to keep your talk page nice and tidy.

Be sure to not remove the archive code on this page. There is also a code at the top of each archive page, leave it be, it acts as a warning to other users to not edit your archive. Hope this is satisfactory for you. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh, btw: I forgot. The archive pages do not have those convenient [ edit ] tabs at the sections. That is just a precaution so it won't be easy to accidentally alter your archive. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:33, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * love the archives!Joan arden murray (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you! More good news: I contacted the French author of John Young Johnstone and asked if he knew of a good picture for that article since he works at the Musée national des beaux-arts du Québec. Today he very kindly delivered a picture of a painting! Yay! Take a look at the article. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * very kind of him!64.229.117.19 (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC) charming!Joan arden murray (talk) 17:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * do you think it wd be a good idea if i asked the Robert McLaughlin Gallery for that Self-Portrait of johnstone?Joan arden murray (talk) 18:10, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It might be a good idea later when you are more at home in the Wikipedia universe. Checking licenses and uploading images for articles are a bit trickier than you might think. For now, let's concentrate on you learning the text-things first. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

editing at large

 * I added Barnsley to the list of Canadian Artists, Painters. i have the ref right but the name still comes up red. Why? 64.229.117.19 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC) had to give up on this.Joan arden murray (talk) 13:34, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * First of all, try to remember to log in when you edit. There is a box called "Keep me logged in" when you do that. Tick it and you don't have to worry about showing up as an anonymous IP-address. Regarding the ref, you had simply forgot the last part of the ref code. You always need both the front . I've fixed that for you. The reason why James M. Barnsley is in red is not due to the ref, it is because there is no article about him. Not as "James M. Barnsley" or "James M. Barnsley (Canadian painter)" or otherwise. Btw, you only add something like (Canadian painter) if there is someone else with the same name. If that subject is the first here with that name, you only need the name (s)he is known under. When a red-link (as we call them) is created, it is a signal to the community that the article needs to be written, or you can write it yourself. Before an article is created, you need to do a thorough search to make sure it isn't lurking under some different name/title. I have looked and I can't find anything about James M. Barnsley. There are lists of red-links like Most-wanted articles or Requested articles. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * oh, is that why. i thought i had done something wrong! your words are so calming, teach!Joan arden murray (talk) 14:04, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Don't be nervous, there is nothing you can do here that can't be corrected. :-) There are backups of everything and with a few clicks any experienced editor can correct if you made a mistake. There are heaps of people here who write poorly and don't follow any of the guidelines or rules, plenty of articles that needs to be cleaned up. I might be a bit too picky about things when I mentor someone, but I think it's best to lay down some good editing behavior right from the start. That way you can more quickly move on to working on your own and become a trusted co-editor. Like you are doing right now. I saw that you were upgraded from "newbie" to "extended confirmed user" today. That means that other editors will trust you more. So congrats! <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:39, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you, wonderful friend.

One more thing. Can you tell how many hits on pantazzi. any chance of knowing who they are? i emailed her nephew, a great scholar, Michael pantazzi but he is 85% blind and i`m afraid can`t use the computer without help. thanks again!Joan arden murray (talk) 15:07, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No problem, just ask me if there is something you want to know. First: I've erased the the comment about email, you should never give out anyone's email here on this open forum that can be seen by anyone.
 * As for hits on Pantazzi, views are counted per day and it can sometimes lag a day or so. Up until midnight yesterday, it had been viewed by 57 people. You can see these statistics for yourself on the "behind the scene" page that is just as interesting to editors as the article. Almost every page has a "View history" tab at the top (even this your talk page!), next to the "Edit" tab. Click on it and you will see everything that's happened on the page. At the top are some links for different statistics called "External tools". Click on "Pageviews" and you will come to a page with graphs and all for the page. No one can see or know who read the article, that is not possible. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Stewart Bagnani
I have a draft in my sandbox. take a look when you have time. i have a bad photo in Confessions, p. 198. can`t seem to find day of death. anyhow, see what you think. this concludes my AGO trio. Joan arden murray (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's nice. I'll be away most of the day tomorrow so it will have to wait until Monday after work. There are some new things to go through with you in this. In the meanwhile, please check the text using my notes from Pantazzi, a lot of that applies here as well, such as checking links, no all-caps titles, the trick with the links using the divider. I'll get back to you. Have a nice Sunday! :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:55, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * okay. have a nice time!Joan arden murray (talk) 18:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

New notes about editing
Hello again! The weekend was nice and I'm ready to start again. I see that you made an attempt with the 'ref name' thing. Good! That was one of the things I was planning on explaining for this article, so let's start with that before I go in with the full copy edit. You did a very nice try and actually got it about 70% right, so good thinking! You just didn't know the exact code and that's what messed up you attempt, not showing half the page etc. Here how it's done:
 * First you pick one of the places you use the ref and name it. It doesn't have to be the first one, you can pick any one you like as long as it's on the page. You give it a short, distinct and easy name. I'm using the 'Fitzgibbon' ref as an example here and in the draft. You enter it in the first part of the ref-ref marking so:
 * becomes
 * Now the ref is defined and you can use it as many times you like in the article. Instead of the usual you ONLY use
 * That's all. Take a look in the draft.
 * Now the ref is defined and you can use it as many times you like in the article. Instead of the usual you ONLY use
 * That's all. Take a look in the draft.

Some editors write the code without the quotation marks "..." but I always include them since that makes sure the text and the ref can be read by any computer, not just those set to the English alphabet and you can use characters from foreign languages if need be. I try to stick to English, but the quotation marks allows me to use the Swedish å, ä and ö too. Some editors name all the refs in an article, out of habit and to be on the safe side, even if they are only used once. There are some more tricks to this, but this will do for now.

You can use this sort referencing for books too, but I find it a bit limiting since there is no place for a page number in it. Without other help-templates, you need to name one 'ref name' for each page you cite.

Now you try to use this on another one of the refs in the draft before we move on. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much. you answered my question, unasked. I`LL TRY IT!Joan arden murray (talk) 17:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Nice! That went well. I have some other things to do the next 30-45 minutes, after that I will get back to the rest of the copy editing. I wanted to run this by you first. :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * What do I do when there is no name?Joan arden murray (talk) 17:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You can call it whatever you like! Make up a name. Some editors assign them numbers. Btw, I forgot to say: There can't be any spaces in the name so "Gilbert and Stewart Bagnani fonds" is messing up the page. You can call it "GilbertandStewartBagnanifonds" or "Gilbert-and-Stewart-Bagnani-fonds". I would just call it "fonds". --<em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:54, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Also you had an abandoned floating around in the text. It was "waiting" for the other half of the code so it cancelled out much of the text. I removed it for you. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * ohohJoan arden murray (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC) Looks okay now.Joan arden murray (talk) 18:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm back. Please stay away from the draft while I work on it so we don't get those irritating 'edit conflicts'. I'll make notes and tell you when I'm done. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:39, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Notes part 2

 * You forgot the template. It should always be in the article. Without it, the refs just fall to the very bottom of the page.
 * The book you use for the {{sfn|... should be in its own section, not just tacked to the references.
 * For the {{sfn|... there should be no page number where it is defined as a source, the page (or pages) are in the {{sfn|...refs in the text.
 * Preferably use the upright format for sources that are not in-line.
 * The birth name should not be in the parenthesis.
 * Use the code from a previous article for the birth/death data code.
 * Names of newspaper and magazines are always written in Italics. You do that by putting two single '' on each side of the name. Also always go to the article about the paper to get the spelling the same. See if the "The" is included in the title or not.
 * Still a bit too many capital letters.
 * I see that you use the right hyphen in years now. Good!!
 * There should never be a space between punctuation marks and ref.
 * Links to places are always tricky since you need to check their articles to see if the name stands alone or if some state/province/description is needed. Stay as close to that name as you can. So no Sahara Desert but Sahara desert. Even if a link turns blue and you get connected via a redirect, it can often be made more elegant.
 * I see you had some trouble with the Coptic church... It is a disambiguation page and should be avoided. However, in this context you are not talking about the faith but the paintings as part of the architecture in the churches. So we don’t have to figure out which part of the faith we should link to. Let's go for the buildings instead: Coptic Churches redirects nicely to Coptic architecture and that's enough for now. Some day someone will write an article on Coptic churches, and the link will be fine then.
 * You still use the slanted single '. Try to use the straight one. If you write the text first in Word or something like that, the ' unfortunately becomes slanted even if you use the right key and you have to correct it when transferring the text.
 * Your language is adapting in a very nice way to encyclopedic tone. Well done!
 * Try to name the main subject somewhere in one of the first sentences in a new section.
 * We have a system for converting all sorts of measurements to suit an international audience. Take a look at Template:Convert and use those codes when needed.
 * Alternate between "Dr. Bagnani" and "her husband" to keep down confusion. The general rule on WP is to avoid titles like Dr. but let it slide for now. It is also possible to call him by his first name throughout the article if that helps. Take a look at an article I'm working on Moa Martinson with lots of name collisions.
 * Avoid abbreviations. AGO should be written 'Art Gallery of Ontario'.

I'm going to fix an infobox and then move it to main. Good job! Very nice! <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  19:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Ok, done. I couldn't get to the photo of her in Confessions...; the whole book is not available online. Instead I did an online search and found a photo of her on this page and I fixed it up a bit. I don't know if it's the same photo you have, if so do you have any info about it? Photographer, year taken, etc? I could use that on the photo's page.
 * BUT; when I found that page I noticed that the wording was very similar to your text in the article. Some sentences are exactly the same. It looks like you have used the same sources. Now, this is something I must strongly caution you about. Wikipedia takes copyright extremely seriously. We should always only use our own words when writing an article, we can never copy texts unless they are from explicitly free material and books. There is an art to re-writing something using your own words when you have a condensed text to take your facts from. If the text is deemed too close to the original, it can be deleted from the article without warning. We actually have special computer programs to search the Internet and look for text that are similar to articles.
 * I have to ask you to tweak the text so that no part of it can be seen as simply copied from the source. If you know of similar parts of text in other articles you have written, please take a look at those as well and see what you can do.
 * That's it for now. It is good night for me here. All the best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  21:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * P.S. I also created a redirect at Mary Augusta Stewart Houston. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  21:32, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Will tweak. sorry, stayed too close to fonds material. Other articles more original.Joan arden murray (talk) 22:27, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Shorter and i hope sweeter.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:12, 11 May 2020 (UTC) One thing, i see you put confessions under further reading. remove it. there is only a picture of stewart, no text. you can put it under Natalka Husar. i wrote about her. thanks.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, done. Thanks! Just 'ping' me when you have questions or something new. :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  09:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I found the ref to Stewart in my writings and entered it as fn 5. i also used it in another entry, Tom Hodgson. i know wikipedia frowns on using my own material. will you make it okay this once?Joan arden murray (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC) [ping|@W.carter]Joan arden murray (talk) 13:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, we'll use it this time. It's good you are careful about how you use your books. The 'ping' didn't work because you didn't use the right code this time. The @ has no place in the the code, it is just generated by the code in the resulting text. And you only used single brackets. Rule of thumb: Double brackets   are for links within the Wikipedia, single brackets [  ] are for links to urls outside the WP. Double curly brackets {{  }} are for activating different templates within the Wikipedia. You can 'ping' me using several sorts of 'pings'. Here they are:
 * {{u|W.carter}} or {{ping|W.carter}} or {{replyto|W.carter}} or {{reply to|W.carter}} or call me using my user page code: W.carter
 * Use any one you like and sign. You get an automatic ping/notification when I post on your talk page or user page, that is why I don't need to 'ping' you. I also get an automatic 'ping' if you post on my talk page. Knowing how the 'ping' system works, is like knowing "how to use the phone on Wikipedia". Useful. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * OKAY. THANKS.Joan arden murray (talk) 14:14, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And thank you for fixing the birth date on Stewart Bagnani. I was obviously tired when I copied that infobox. Sorry, my bad. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  14:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

J. M. Barnsley
This enty is ready when you get a chance.Joan arden murray (talk) 13:40, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, now that you are becoming a real editor here, there are some things you need to make a habit of:
 * When you write something, anywhere, always check the page. Either by using the "Show preview" next to the "Publish changes" or after you've saved the edit. You have to make sure the edit went as you hoped it would. Take a look at how this section turned out.
 * You also need to getting used to 'pinging' me when you start something new. That is partly because I will not be checking up on you as regularly as when you were a newbie, but also because you need to be able to communicate with all editors here in the right way. And please stop calling the articles "entry", other users will not know what you are talking about if you don't call them "articles" as we do. An "entry" means a few other things here.
 * Last: When you have written a draft, go through the notes I made for you on the previous articles and make sure all of them are ticked. That way I don't have to write the same comments again and nag you. For this draft, I'll give you a couple of hints: links and there is something strange going on with the sources and the sections for them. Take a look at this first. It is actually best if you do this first checking yourself, you will not learn and become an independent editor here if I simply step in and fix everything for you. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:03, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * okayJoan arden murray (talk) 18:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * think i fixed it. thanksJoan arden murray (talk) 18:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)or


 * As another user explained to you earlier: The "nowiki" on either side of code on a talk page is just so that the code will be neutralized when we talk about it and so it does not do what it should do without the nowiki. I see that this is confusing for you, so just think that you should always disregard the <nowiki... As you can see, I can't even write the full code here when I'm trying to explain it for you since that would activate the template(s). So the 'ping' codes should be written like this you want them to work (look in the editing window):
 * or or  or  or call me using my user page code: W.carter


 * Thanks for fixing the heading here. Wrt the draft, still a lot of links missing and take one more look at how you have defined the sources. I'm totally knackered from work today, so I won't be able to do a good job on any article tonight. Try to see if you can find what I'm hinting at and I'll get back to this tomorrow. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * think it`s done now.Joan arden murray (talk) 22:40, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Notes on Barnsley
OK, here we go with some new notes. Thanks for the ‘ping’ it worked fine this time. :-) All in all a very nice little article. If you can think of any articles where his name might be mentioned, it would be great. The article is currently an “orphan”, nothing wrong with that, just better to have it linked in other places. Good work! Cheers, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  10:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The linking in this draft seems a bit random compared to your previous work. Now fixed.
 * If you use the {{sfn|… system, the book should always be defined in a bibliography section as you have done before. Not sure why you put them in the text this time. Do not mix that system with the ref-ref system. You can use both on the same article, but not mixed for the same ref/source/citation. Now fixed.
 * No accessdate for paper books, they stay the same regardless of when you read them.
 * Good encyclopedic language!
 * Very nice that you got the infobox right.
 * Full name at the start of the leade. His more common name will be the title.
 * We had a bit of luck that Commons (the Wikimedia image repository) already had one of his works. Now included.
 * Names of papers, magazines, books and journals in Italics using the two '' before and after the name.
 * Names of awards are usually written with caps.
 * Nice work with the coding of the birth/death facts.
 * Moved to main.
 * Redirects created for James Macdonald Barnsley and J M Barnsley
 * Categories added and talk page created.
 * Hats off to a great editor! Thanks. Joan arden murray (talk) 11:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * {{smiley|blush}} <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  11:22, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Charles Goldhamer
I improved this article. cd you check it and provide an image of his work? thank youJoan arden murray (talk) 12:51, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Dear friend, I may have asked inadvertantly for something that I shouldn`t have. Please just put it down to my lack of knowledge and forget it. apologies, Joan arden murray (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)


 * You haven’t done anything wrong, this is just the regular pace on WP.


 * First of all, you didn't ping me so I couldn't know that you wanted my help. The second time it didn't work either since you wrote the ping during one edit and signed it in the next. Like I've said before: You have to write the ping and sign during the same edit, or it will not work.
 * If your request is urgent or important, it is also good Wiki- etiquette to leave a message on the editor's talk page (in this case mine). You go to people and ask, preferably politely, for help, you don’t just summon them with pings. The atmosphere here is relaxed and friendly, but we try to keep things polite if possible.


 * Now that you are not a newbie anymore, I don’t monitor your talk page or edits all the time. Like so many other editors I have only a limited amount of time to give to the Wikipedia each week. I have a job to do and a household and normal life to take care of. Granted, I work irregular hours, but I still have to put in the full time.
 * During your first articles here, I was stretched a bit thin for time, but I wanted to be there for you to give you a good start. That might have "spoiled" you a bit. It is quite normal that you have to wait a few days for help, even if you ping the editor for a non-urgent request. We are not working on a deadline here and we usually find something else to do while we wait for a reply or help.


 * There are official forums here where you can ask to have your drafts reviewed and articles fixed or copy edited, pictures added, but the waiting time there is usually one to a few weeks, even months. See for example WP:Peer review and WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors. Right now there are 1,451 drafts waiting to be fixed up and moved to the main space, the waiting time is estimated to be seven weeks. I usually do that for you in a day or two.


 * I will take a look at this as soon as I can, probably in a day or so, and I hope you have some other articles to work on in the meantime. I saw this now, because I was up with insomnia and I used that to see what was going on. All the best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  00:10, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I am up too. what time is it there? NO RUSH WHATSOEVER ABOUT EDITING. You are a wonderful friend and I have been spoiled.Joan arden murray (talk) 00:16, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here it is 02:17 in the middle of the night. I'm just going to finish my cup of rose hip tea and then try to go back to bed. Hopefully I can get some sleep. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  00:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sleep well, dear! it is 8:20here so not so late. your friendJoan arden murray (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Jean Paul Lemieux

 * Ok, Charles Goldhamer is fixed. Hopefully it looks better now. Regarding a picture for it, that can be hard. He is represented at some public art institutions, where anyone can take a photo of his works, so I can't just nab a picture on some website for that non-free rationel and claim there are no other available images. Sorry. We could both look for a free photo on some of the institutions' website and hope something will turn up.
 * I'll also put the broom to Jean Paul Lemieux since I see that you are working on that. The layout of that article is in an appalling state. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  11:49, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you. yes, the Lemieux article is a mess. I don`t know how to correct the format, just working on the wordage and links.Joan arden murray (talk) 11:54, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Goldhamer much better format now. thanksJoan arden murray (talk) 11:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think I got most of Lemieux sorted out. The article is really lacking a section about his works other than that boring list of his periods. Is that something you think you could write? I could set up an empty section for you in an appropriate place if you like. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  12:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I added some of his works to the 'Artistic career' section, so it looks ok. There is now also an option to write something just below the 'Artistic career' heading and 'Works - a selection', should you or anyone else feel so inclined. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:14, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I am afraid of running into a book I wrote so I will have to think about this. Maybe I can do it. on another matter, might you add a broom to the article on Kathleen Moir Morris. The author thought it was an at historical text. thanks, talk soon.Joan arden murray (talk) 13:24, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Haha! You could take a few pointers from the French article on what to write about his work to keep the size down. Anyway, just a thought. The article is at least readable now and I found some images. I'll see what I can do about Morris later. I'm done editing for now. All the best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:35, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Morris more like an article now. You can tweak it if you like. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  15:39, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Alexandre Loemans
I saw that you had some problems with the infobox. Those birth/death things can be tricky. If you only have the year, just write that for the birth. The death-box is a bit more flexible. Hope you don't mind me butting in like that. I'll leave you to it now. :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:05, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I am struggling with it.Joan arden murray (talk) 13:08, 16 May 2020 (UTC).
 * oh, thank you. i think it`s okay for you to look now. i hope there is a painting you can use. so interesting.Joan arden murray (talk) 13:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I gave it a quick look. You had accidentally put a new line between 'cite' and 'web', that cause the hiccup with the ref. I'm afraid that with just one source as reference it is not good enough to be published. You have to dig up two more for the minimum. With so much guess-work about him, we need to prove that he is at least notable enough for people to write about him. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:30, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * okay, i will put it aside for now. thanksJoan arden murray (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 18
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Christiane Pflug, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Hart House ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Christiane_Pflug check to confirm] | [//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Christiane_Pflug?client=notify fix with Dab solver]). Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 12:26, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Fixed it. Thank you.Joan arden murray (talk) 13:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

'john lyman'
I thought it might be best to answer here on your talk page so that you have access to the answer in an easy way. I assume when you write 'john lyman' that you mean John Goodwin Lyman. There are other people with the same name. It looks odd to link him in any way to John Bauer (illustrator) and I guess you mixed up the names and you really meant Einar Jolin. Even though they both studied with Matisse, and painted in a similar style, there is no reason to connect the articles since there is no record of them interacting. If an article about that academy is created, a list of all notable artists who studied there could be added.


 * I did mean Einar Jolin and thank you for the answer, and your patience.Joan arden murray (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

McMichael Canadian Art Collection
I see that it is using a perfectly normal version of Infobox museum. It is the same Infobox that is used in MacKenzie Art Gallery, Winnipeg Art Gallery and The Robert McLaughlin Gallery. Nothing strange at all.

There are a lot of different Infoboxes, for all sorts of subjects and articles. Each Infobox has a specific set of parameters you can use inside the curly brackets. All those parameters are listed on the Infobox's page, in this case at Template:Infobox museum. Take a look. You can select which parameters you want to use or you can copy all of them to the article and only fill in those you need, and leave the rest to be filled in later by other editors. If you look in the code for The Robert McLaughlin Gallery, you will find that all of the parameters for the Infobox are there but only some are filled in. Only those parameters that have some info will be shown on the article page.


 * I see. Thanks.Joan arden murray (talk) 16:46, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Some Wiki-etiquette
Here is today's lesson in how to behave on Wikipedia. I thought you might have picked up on some cues and clues, but it seems I have to spell them out for you so here goes.

When you ask about an article or talk about it in general on a talk page or in a discussion, you should always link to it at least at the beginning of the discussion. Other editors should not have to go searching for and guessing what you are talking about, that is considered bad manners.

Then there is how you write in these discussions. This is an open forum and a lot more people that just you and me are reding what we write here. Since we don't see or hear each other, how we behave when we write is everything. The style and manner in which you write will affect how other editors perceive you, and we take pride in doing so in a good and correct way. Even in the most heated debates and discussions or while talking with old friends, we keep a good writing style.

So if you want to be taken seriously, you should write with the normal mix of upper and lower case letters, correct punctuation and not use abbreviations that might be hard to understand for non-native English users. I'm sorry to say that with your way of often using only lower case letters, sometimes shouting in ALL CAPITALS and for example using 'cd' 'wd' 'shd' etc, to a Wikipedian, you come across as a surly pre-teen girl with an “I-don't-give-a-f*** attitude” texting on her phone. You might want to adjust this as you are becoming more and more involved with articles and the community. Even I sometimes flinch when I read your posts, since I'm used to another kind of writing style. As it is now, it could be hard to believe you really are an adult art historian. Polite and correct, that is how you will impress other editors. I think it is better you hear this from me, than being treated like a nobody or ignored, when asking someone else for help or discussing with them. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:20, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yikes! There is absolutely no need to tell a new editor they sound like a surly pre-teen girl with an “I-don't-give-a-f*** attitude”. You blend some good advice with a set of unnecessary put-downs. Why would any new editor want to hang around when they get told off like this? You could have simply said "You may find that it is better to avoid texting-style language when posting on talk pages". Then you tell someone who appears to be a respected, and published art historian, that it could be hard to believe you really are an adult art historian. I'll assume AGF on your intentions, but I think you owe this new good-faith editor an apology.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:34, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I will take your criticism to heart and improve. Sorry. Joan arden murray (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Joan arden murray, I apologize for being too straight forward, I know I can sometimes be too harsh. ThatMontrealIP is right about telling me to behave better. It was, as you say a comment given in good faith and a sincere desire to help but it came out totally wrong. I am also very glad to see that you two have connected since you share a common interest and knowledge in Canadian art, something I know very little about. I will step away for a while and not bother you. Again, I apologize for being so clumsy. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * You have been kindness itself and I shall always be grateful to you for teaching me so much. Thank you.Joan arden murray (talk) 18:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I am truly sorry. I'd had one of the worst days in months at work. I should have just written: "I'll get back to you on this in a day or so when I can think straight." Instead I got right into writing anyway, idiot that I am. Luckily there are other editors who have the guts to speak up in defense of new editors, when someone like me is behaving badly. All the best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  19:48, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * No apologies are necessary. You are a great editor and helped me beyond measure.Joan arden murray (talk) 20:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Walter Yarwood
hello! Your new article is live at Walter Yarwood. Next time around, if you want to create a draft easily, just type Draft:NameofPage into the wikipedia search box. When you hit enter Wikiepdia will tell you that page does not exist, but it will asls give you a redlink saying "you can create Draft:NameofPage". click that, edit the new draft and hit save! Pinging to let them know page is published.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 21:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * PS: I tracked down details and sources for pretty much all of his public artworks, and added a section. Feel free to edit things if you think there is abetter way to format that information. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Copyright problem on Natalka Husar
Content you added to the above article appears to have been copied from https://angellgallery.com/artist/natalka-husar/bio, which is not released under a compatible license. Copying text directly from a source is a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. Unfortunately, for copyright reasons, the content had to be removed. Content you add to Wikipedia should be written in your own words. Please leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions. — Diannaa (talk) 11:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I understand.Joan arden murray (talk) 11:44, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sandbox
HI again! I just dropped by to see how you were doing after the mess with your computer. I'm very happy to see that you have continued to edit and write nice articles. That is really good! :-)

However, I saw that you had accidentally created a sandbox for you in the Wikipedia space during a page move, and that will read as an official page of some sort: Joan arden murray/sandbox. Not so good. You still have your own sandbox at: User:Joan arden murray/sandbox. I just wanted to give you a heads up since I'm going to put a tag on the accidental sandbox for one of the Admins to delete it. If you want to use more than one sandbox (or any other private pages), that is totally allowed. Most active users have a bunch of them. A second sandbox could be titled User:Joan arden murray/sandbox 2. Your own private pages have the prefix: User:Joan arden murray/ ... and official WP pages start with: Wikipedia: ... So don't be alarmed when you see my tag, It's no big deal, just a small mistake that needs to be sorted out. All the best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clearing that up. Now here is a question for you because you so brillianntly cleared up more than one problem with articles.

Dulcie Foo Fat
I did an article on this artist but it won`t come up on my computer. I think you would love her work. Can you see if you can do something? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulcie_Foo_Fat Thank you,Joan arden murray (talk) 17:16, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Really nice art! No idea why you can't see the article, I had no problem reading it at Dulcie Foo Fat. Click on that link and see if it works for you too. Your computer seems to harbor some unfriendly bugs or perhaps you accidentally wrote the name using only small letters, that may work on your phone (it is more forgiving since so many people use the no-caps spelling on their phones), but for Wikipedia on your computer, you have to spell it correctly. A nice little article, you have improved! :-) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">cart <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:44, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are a magician! You just touch an article and it`s better! Thank you!Joan arden murray (talk) 17:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Joan arden murray

Thank you for creating Albert H. Robinson.

User:Whiteguru, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and prepend it with. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~.

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Whiteguru (talk) 10:58, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you!Joan arden murray (talk) 11:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Tom Benner moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Tom Benner, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.  scope_creep Talk  22:32, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I am at a loss to understand this move to draft. The article was carefully written and there are five book sources. The laudatory langugae could be toned down a tiny bit, but that isn't enough of a reason to move it to draft. Notability is not a reason, as I found two new sources for museum collections and added them to the article. I have moved it back to article space for these reasons. Thanks.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:51, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I will make tone down the language.Joan arden murray (talk) 22:57, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Joan, I have trimmed the lede already. More indepenedent sources would be helpful, as I notice many are from the same publisher: Museum London.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:58, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Please don't need to tone the language. It was mistake plain and simple. I must have selected the wrong one. Sorry.   scope_creep Talk  23:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay! Thanks.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:05, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * that made me laugh. I though something was up.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 23:11, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * ThatMontrealIP, if you look up Joan arden murray, you will see that I have thanked you specially.Joan arden murray (talk) 23:57, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It is a pleasure to have you here and to work with you.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

October 2020
Hello, I'm Gioguch. I noticed that you recently removed all content from Canadian Exhibition at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition. Please do not do this. Blank pages are harmful to Wikipedia because they have a tendency to confuse readers. As a rule, if you discover a duplicate article, please redirect it to an appropriate existing page. If a page has been vandalised, please revert it to the last legitimate version. If you feel that the content of a page is inappropriate, please edit the page and replace it with appropriate content. If you believe there is no hope for the page, please see the deletion policy for how to proceed. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you wish to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks.