User talk:John Carter/Archives/2012/June

Please comment on Talk:Resurrection of the dead
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Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2 opened
An arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2/Evidence. Please add your evidence by, 2012, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Lord Roem (talk) 04:19, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Rumspringa
Could you take a moment to explain your demotion of Rumspringa from "B" to "C" class over at Talk:Rumspringa? Thanks. --Lexein (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!
That was very kind of you. Thanks.--Arxiloxos (talk) 19:50, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War
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Bartolomé de las Casas
I don't know if you do GA reviews, if you do you might be interested in this article I just nominated.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Australian Christian Lobby
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Please comment on Talk:Inter-Services Intelligence
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List of Christian heresies
Well, I'm OK with how your proposed move turned out. However, I wasn't able to participate in that discussion because I was unaware that it was taking place. In future move proposals, you might consider looking to see who created an article and drop them a courtesy notification that a proposed move discussion is taking place. Thanx. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 22:58, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bob Dylan
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Study on article degradation
This comment today rings so true. The discussion started today on my talk and I am beginning to see the situation more clearly based on what he said. Has that been your experience too? There is also this if you want to join in. History2007 (talk) 21:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Prince Hall Freemasonry
Just FYI, it's not a sourcing problem, but a problem with a source. The source is RS, but the item at issue is an opinion by the author, unsupported by data (in an otherwise supported by data article), and even stated by the author as "it is likely that X is true" being presented as straightforward fact (that "X is true") in the WP article. MSJapan (talk) 04:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Bob Dylan: Christian or Jewish?
Hi John, I've said I'll happily go along with your opinion on the question of arbitration in this perenially fascinating debate. Best, Mick gold (talk) 06:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm not sure I've participated in a formal RfC before. Of course I've participated in millions of discussions on Talk pages. Should be interesting. To be honest, I've never been v interested in adding or subtracting categories to articles. My concern is to produce well-sourced BLPs and articles about Dylan's work. Do you participate in expressing a view on RfC? Mick gold (talk) 18:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure. I'm not clear about the procedure. Do you get to participate in discussion? Or, as an administrator, is there some self-denying ordinance? Mick gold (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:BLPCAT is an important resource here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Good to see that the two of you find this a "perenially fascinating debate."Mwinog2777 (talk) 01:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * As you say: "...there may have been changes to categorization of BLPs since then, and that would reasonably have to be taken into account." FYI, I started wiki page for:  Jewish poker players.  It is almost impossible to get anyone listed.  I can't get Hebrew speaking Israelis included for the most part.  I have found that the most difficult thing for me on wiki is getting Jews onto the poker page.  No matter what the credentials, someone is trying to get him off.  It is a perenial problem with me.   If same scrutiny was applied to Dylan page that has been given my poker page, Dylan would not be listed as a Christian.Mwinog2777 (talk) 04:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

JC, Thanks for your comments on the Dylan talk page. A lot of the time one edits away, unsure if anyone notices. So your words are much appreciated. I noticed this was posted and reverted: Mick gold (talk) 13:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

JC, I think you're right, consensus can change. I feel consensus on this issue is "neither," with a lot of thought by many editors. I think we've gotten all the opinions we'e going to get. How will we make changes and how will changes be done? Exactly which categories will be rectified? Thanx, Mwinog2777 (talk) 16:51, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues
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Las Casas
If you need any resources during the GA drive the nominator of that article has his email enabled, and access to all of the relevant books.138.16.115.57 (talk) 14:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Ichthus: June 2012


Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 331 active members. We would like to welcome User:Sanju87, User:Psalm84, User:Zegron, User:Jargon777, User:Calu2000, User:Gilderien, User:Ronallenus, Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. We have recently added some new sections to the newsletter. Please let us know what you think of the new departments, and if there are any other suggestions for departments you would like to see. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments. With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please [ click here] to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

Church of the month
by Berthold Werner Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai

Vote for the project mascot
We had last month asked our members to help "bring into the fold" Wikipe-tan as the project's mascot. Voting will take place this month for which image we should adopt at WikiProject Christianity/Outreach/Wikipe-tan. Please take a moment to review the images and vote for whichever is your favorite, or, if you so prefer, suggest an additional one.

By John Carter

DYK

 * ...that Anna of Kashin, a Russian medieval princess, was twice canonized as a holy protectress of women who suffer the loss of relatives?

Calendar
Thie coming month includes days dedicated to the honor of Beheading of John the Baptist, Saints Peter and Paul, the Nativity of John the Baptist, and Saint Barnabas.

Featured content and GA report
Alec Douglas-Home recently achieved FA status. This picture, in the Church of the Month section, was recently promoted to Featured Picture status. Our thanks and congratulations to all those involved.

Wikimedia Foundation report
Wikisource currently has many old texts available, most of them in the public domain. This is a potentially very valuable source for several things, including for instance links to Biblical verses, because we know that it will, basically, be around as long as we are.

By user:John Carter with inspiration from History2007

Christian art
This section would include a rather large image of a specific work of art, with a link to the most directly relevant article. Suggestion: Resurrection of Christ, an English 15th century Nottingham alabaster. Groups of painted relief panels were sold via dealers to churches on a budget, who had wood frameworks made to hold them locally. From a huge new donation of images from the Walters Art Museum to Commons, see By Johnbod

Spotlight
A new WikiProject relating directly to Christian history is being developed at WikiProject Christian history. Also, a group specifically devoted to the Mennonites and other Anabaptists is now up and running at WikiProject Christianity/Anabaptist work group. Anyone interested in assisting with the development of these groups and topics is more than welcome to do so.

By John Carter

I believe
... in the statements contained in the Nicene Creed. I believe that the Bible is one of the two defining bases for belief. The other is the Sacred tradition, which provides us with means of interpreting the Scriptures, as well as some teachings which have been handed on by God outside of the scriptures. I believe that the Magisterium has been empowered to fill this interpretative function. I believe that clerical celibacy is a rule that should generally be followed. I am a member of the Catholic Church.

By John Carter

Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

- Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia &bull; It is published by WikiProject Christianity For submissions contact the Newsroom &bull; To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here EdwardsBot (talk) 02:47, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bronyetransportyor
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Rfa
Hi, Afterall, I think I am going to fill in the Rfa forms sometime this week. I have not looked at the forms yet, but will do so tomorrow. Are you around on Friday to nominate it as you had suggested? Thanks. History2007 (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Index pages of categories
Hi John, in 2009 you made some lists of categories in user and wikiproject space, e.g.
 * User:John Carter/Tree/7
 * WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Categories
 * WikiProject Christianity/Jesus work group/Categories

These do not seem to have been maintained since then. Are they still of any use or relevance, or can they now be deleted? I come across them sometimes when removing backlinks after category moves. This takes time to investigate whether they should be updated as part of the CfD admin task; and some of them are rather long and therefore take time even to load. – Fayenatic  L ondon 09:55, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I wish they had been maintained, but I can see how it would probably be impossible to keep up with them and so wouldn't mind deletion. John Carter (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Shall I leave you to delete your own user sub-pages, or are you giving me permission to delete them as db-author? For that matter, may I speedily delete such inactive wikiproject subpages by the same reason if they were created and edited mainly by you? If you like, I could make a list of them here or on a fresh user subpage so that you could still refer to them or undelete them if occasion arose. – Fayenatic  L ondon 19:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding the subpages in general, I think maybe let me know in advance, simply for informational purposes. Regarding the lists, it seems History2007 has indicated that there might be an effort to bring them current at WT:X. Maybe you might want to check with him and the others first. John Carter (talk) 20:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that note at WT:X. Sorry to sound a cynical note, but the action that I asked for is likely to be very low on the priority list.
 * If it's me checking backlinks, I'll just ignore such pages rather than looking into updating them. However, I am of course not the only admin at CFD. I've been seeking to raise the game in terms of checking backlinks, and at least some of the others are getting it. Some classes of pages can always be ignored, e.g. past CFDs, WikiProject "Article alerts" subpages, and main Wikiproject pages which transclude the latter. However, I don't want to change the guidance to say "ignore all user and wikiproject subpages", because we can provide a service by updating those links, which is useful provided that anybody still looks at them. A proxy indicator for the latter is whether they have generally been maintained until now.
 * It seems to me that:
 * MediaWiki now offers much-improved facilities for browsing category trees since those indexes were created;
 * if the main people who would use them are Admins, then the pages might as well be deleted, keeping only a new index of the deleted pages, so that interested Admins can view the pages while leaving them deleted, or undelete them temporarily/permanently.
 * If you decide after all that you would be willing in principle to delete pages owned or originated by you such as those linking to Category:Depictions of the Virgin Mary, I would be willing to list them when I come across them. Perhaps you might make me two subpages for your userspace and WP:X where I could list them, requesting you to delete them? – Fayenatic  L ondon 20:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I actually haven't been keeping up with some of the pages you mentioned above, so I wasn't aware of them. Honestly, I have to say that they would probably be more useful. Acknowledging that you know more about this (the MediaWiki facilities you mentioned above) than I do, I wonder if there is any way to include some of those links in the space of the related WikiProjects, so that any members could check for newer untagged articles. If there is, then go right ahead with the deletion. And, yeah, in all honesty, they probably are unmanagably huge, and there probably isn't a purpose to keeping them, giving the proliferation of categories. In all honesty, I can't say that I don't see any reason not to delete them. John Carter (talk) 20:39, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the MediaWiki facilities there too. John Carter (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah! I was just referring to the way that category pages display more sub-categories than they used to, and can easily be expanded.
 * Tell you what, if I find that such pages are causing extra work for admins at CFD, I'll simply blank them and add a statement of what was there before, so that this action could simply be reverted if anybody wanted the info to be live again. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much! I count that as a very positive closure, and it will no doubt be useful to be able to link to that section on my talk page. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:56, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Your BIB
I just saw User:John Carter/Religion reference - Not sure if your aware of Google books or not, but after looking at your list I see that many have been digitized so some can been seen in full or portions like....
 * from Google books
 * from Google books

If you like I can help link this up were possible so it looks like Bibliography of Canada with Google book tool that coverts bare urls into cite book format. See also WP:BOOKLINKS for our policy on these links and WikiProject Bibliographies for adviceMoxy (talk) 01:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Part of the extant problem is that the list is still far from complete. I still have a remarkable number of reviews still in my e-mail which haven't been added. In general, I think it is a good idea to maybe include links to Google books and the like, but my first priority is to maybe get an idea of how highly or poorly a given source is regarded within the field. Some of these books, like the Eliade/Jones Encyclopedia of Religions, have received fairly uniform praise in the academic community. Others are held in much less regard, or are considered to be basically aimed at the popular market, and are correspondingly less "academic." Ultimately, when I get the list finished, I am going to try to put together articles on each of the sources which meets notability guidelines, with particular regard for what are described as their strengths and weaknesses. But I probably won't finish going through JSTOR for all the relevant reviews until about the end of the month. At that point I'm going to also try to start "breaking down" the list into units more appropriate for individual projects and work groups, to give them some idea of what is out there, and at that point help of the kind you suggested would work. But it might be a good idea to wait until then, though, because there are still a huge number of books which haven't even been added to the list yet. John Carter (talk) 17:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Rfa forms
I looked at the forms and there seem to be just 3 questions. Not a major issue really. So I think you could just do a simple nomination if you like, and we will go from there. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact
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Wiki Software for anyone?
Appreciate your last comments clarifying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG (and improving articles through Talk page). My question here relates to an email I received from a friend who estabilshed his own Wikipedia system : http://www.greenswiki.org/ and I wonder whether it is possible for anyone to use Wikipedia Software on any subject. If so, wouldn't this develop into a situation where we have many wikipedias on the net? SafwanZabalawi (talk) 05:23, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Your perspective would be valuable: Anti Christian Sentiment (Israel)
Hi there. I'm currently trying to resolve issues on an article: Anti-Christian sentiment particularly pertaining to incidents in Israel. I have opened a RfC and outlined the problem here. I would be grateful to have your input should you feel so inclined and think it worth your time. Regards, Veritycheck (talk) 22:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. If you have any recommendations regarding the language you think most accurate to describe the spitting attacks, it would be valuable to help us achieve a consensus. Veritycheck (talk) 12:06, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

RfA
At the current RfA, I see you voted to oppose, but your comment was worded to be a reply to the 1st Oppose. Since you didn't give a reason (and none is needed, this is true) I just wanted to make sure you were actually opposing. Dennis Brown - 2&cent;    &copy;  14:33, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh, I'm the nominator there. I really doubt I would vote to oppose. It is possible that I did not format it correctly, and it seems others have fixed my error there. John Carter (talk) 14:46, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Germans
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Rfa
No worries John. I do not let Wikipedia bother me. Thanks. But I will ask a few people to watch a few pages for me as I become semi-retired, so if you could help there once in a while that will be good. History2007 (talk) 20:46, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Reply
I always viewed it as how connected the article topic was to the history of Africa as well as the current importance to the countries involved. For instance, I would put the Libyan civil war as Top importance to Libya, but as mid importance to Africa, as it didn't effect a large part of the continent that much. It is very possible that I could be wrong about what the importance indicator is for, but that is my personal view on it. Hopefully that made sense. Jeancey (talk) 16:54, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I do see your point on how the historical importance could be more concrete, and current importance tends to be a bit more iffy. I tend to think of wikipedia as evolving, and as such, if it is top importance today, like the Libyan civil war article, in two or three years, it could probably be reassessed as high or mid importance, depending on the lasting importance of the conflict. For the historical importance though, sometimes the article's subject might have been of extreme importance at the time, or even for a century or two, but in terms of the overall history of the nation, it ends of being not that important. For instance, the kings of ancient Tripolitania were extremely important in the region for several hundred years, but the overall impact that they have had on the history of Libya was small and pretty much overwritten by the influence of Islam, and then the Ottoman empire. So in many cases, the overall importance doesn't seem to be all that great. I do agree with you, however, that marking something as top importance does draw in editors. Perhaps we should be tagging articles that should be expanded as top importance, and articles that just need periodic lookovers as low to mid importance? Jeancey (talk) 17:34, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Pages
Hi, I saw a few more eulogies on my talk page... But I will still watch pages every day or two. Anyway, regarding the pages, I think you may be watching a few of these anyway, given that they are core topics, but here is a list in any case:


 * Mary (mother of Jesus), Roman Catholic Mariology, and Marian devotions All three pages are quite stable and fully referenced. The first item has a few rough and less than sourced items, I may fix those within the next 3 months. No other problems exist.


 * Divine Mercy, Divine Mercy image and Mary Faustina Kowalska: All three pages were carefully rewritten a year ago and are fully sourced now. Highly stable and hardly any vandalism. It is a question of looking for merge flags, etc.


 * Holy Face of Jesus and the Shroud of Turin. The first page is totally stable and also non-controversial. The Shroud page has been extremely stable given its controversial nature. There is user:thucyd who knows much more about it, but logs in every week or two, and he has provided many solid references. Every possible angle on that object is covered in the article, but there is a user Vincenzo Ruello (he also writes on UFO items) who logs in as multiple IPs (they often get blocked) and adds promotional items. He sometimes pretends to be his own best friend, etc. So that page does need attention. But every possible aspect has been discussed in the archives, so it is just a question of pointing to those really.


 * Jesus related pages. These are as follows:


 * Jesus has been stable for a year and is fully referenced. I even took out referenced based on suggestions, but it is stable "because it has so many references". The last big debate was about calling Jesus Palestinian or Jewish, etc. But that is over now once it was pointed out that it was a political issue more than anything else. The magnet for debate there is the regularly scheduled talk page comment that Jesus did not really exist. That has been discussed on talk many, many times and it usually ends with the demand: "per WP:RS/AC, please provide a WP:RS source that says 'most historians hold that Jesus did not exist' instead of arguing about it here". The debate always stops after that.


 * Crucifixion of Jesus: Again, pretty stable. And as above, the recurring talk page comment is that he was not crucified. And again there are clear WP:RS sources that say that 'most historians hold that Baptism and Crucifixion are beyond doubt'. And there are no WP:RS sources that say that most scholars hold the opposite. But the key issue here is not to mix these two events with other biblical episodes, for there are many historians who argue Marriage at Cana was not historical, etc. So the only two certain events that are subject to agreement are those two.


 * Christ, the Ministry of Jesus and Chronology of Jesus. All three pages are highly stable and fully sourced. They just need to be watched.


 * Josephus on Jesus and Tacitus on Christ as well as Annals (Tacitus). These are three historically important pages. All three are fully referenced but frequently get large scale vandalism. They do need watching. Josephus on Jesus was the subject of a really long discussion and every possible aspect of it i snow covered in the talk page archives. It has been researched in great detail and as questions come up the talk page archives almost always handle that.


 * Religious perspectives on Jesus, Jesus in Christianity, Sayings of Jesus on the cross, Imitation of Christ and Love of Christ: Again, very stable pages and it is just a question of looking out for merge flags, etc. And there is Nativity of Jesus, Virgin birth of Jesus and Perpetual virginity of Mary.


 * Saints: Saint George is in reasonable shape, but a vandalism magnet and just needs reverts. Saint Michael's structure is in good shape, I cleaned it up a few months ago. Since then some less than properly sourced items have been added but the current form is "good enough" unless more far-out fringe material shows up.

And thanks for all your really sincere help John. History2007 (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks John. History2007 (talk) 12:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Cigarette holder
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[[WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Large scale clean-ups
Hi John, when you get back

You may not have seen that we now have a sub-page of RSN where massive overuse of poor or dubious sources can be flagged up and dealt with. We have been looking at Answers in Genesis, and are now making some progess. I was thinking that you might like to look at the Bible/theology articles where it was used. I would imagine that its viewpoint is not always worth noting, but you know more than me about good sources for Christianity-related articles. If you want to cast your eye over them you may have suggestions on what is needed. You may also want to comment on the processes that we are trying to develop. Hope you are enjoying your wikibreak. Best wishes. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Anti-Christian sentiment
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 * I have summarized the consensus and edited the article Anti-Christian Sentiment accordingly. Please see that it meets your approval. Veritycheck (talk) 20:54, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Yugoslavia
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Nomination for deletion of Template:User WikiProject Reality TV
Template:User WikiProject Reality TV has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. -- JeffreyBillings (talk) 20:11, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Application to Dispute Resolution
I have applied with a request for Dispute Resolution regarding a Soka Gakkai page related matter. ==Notice of Dispute resolution discussion== Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. SafwanZabalawi (talk) 05:36, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Confederate States of America
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Bruce Grubb
Have you noticed that Bruce has basically left WP. Seems a shame that so many noticeboard inquiries have occured to the point that an editor decides to leave. I've worked with him, and he didn't seem so bad; and I never saw anything that impressed me as ill intentioned. I can tell you that I've read through some of these noticeboard discussions, and some of those against him seem more belligerent than Bruce. The whole pseudoscience area (especially BLP articles) seems very cliquish, and groups of people tend to gang up on those that don't conform to the group norm. That's my general observation. I see lots of wikilawyering about policy, and subsequent manipulation of content to suit ideologies. Not saying Bruce is any angel, but some of those people can be quite fanatical in drumming people out. I suppose ultimately it's his choice, but no doubt some of the negative atmosphere help promote it. Regards, -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE 14:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:People from Mayotte
Category:People from Mayotte, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. The Bushranger One ping only 07:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal
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We could use your help
Hello, John Carter - I got to your page through WP:BIOG. There's an MOS-related discussion going on here, and your opinion would be valuable. Thanks! Sleddog116 (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Sino-Indian War
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Steeringly
Not sure what to do about this editor. ANI? See his talk page, latest edits, the article talk page. SPA at least. Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's hard for me to remember a more explicitly SPA editor than this one, actually. And that single purpose seems to be about not only one topic, but almost exclusively about one article, and pushing one POV about that topic. History of edit warring as well, apparently. I don't like going to ANI to ban an editor from the only article and topic he seems interested in, because he might be useful elsewhere, but I have to admit I haven't seen anything to really support that conjecture. I think based on some of his recent comments RfCU might get the same sort of response about editors ganging up on a newbie that he's already shown. ANI is probably the way to go, although I'm not myself sure just what sort of remedical actions to propose. John Carter (talk) 20:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)