User talk:John Carter/Hiram Abiff

Comments on the Legend
A few comments... most of this is based upon personal knowledge of participating in the degree and not on reading it in a reliable source, so I am not sure if it can go into the article. But please at least consider it as a good faith attempt to correct a few errors. I will check the UGLE Emulation Ritual (which is published) to see if my comments are reflected there... but I returned the copy I had to the library so this may take a bit of time.

I can not speak for every jurisdiction, but those I have had witnessed the degree in (all US Lodges, but in different jurisdictions) simply say the ruffians carry the body of GMHA "in a westerly direction" to the brow of a hill somewhere near the sea port of Jaffa. They do not say "west of Mt. Morriah".

The part where the the "substitute word" is whispered into the candidate's ear is not considered part of the drama/legend. The drama itself ends with Hiram being lifted out of the grave. The lecture given at the end of the drama (which explains the legend and its meaning) states that Hiram's body was simply "raised out of the grave and taken back to Jerusalem, to a place of more decent internment... which was as close to the Temple as Jewish Law would allow". In some jursidictions they halt the drama after giving the first two grips... whereupon the Master (or a brother designated by him) will approach the candidate (who is still lying on the floor, having just played the roll of the now dead Hiram) and say "My brother, though humble and lowly your present position, you represent no less a personage than our ancient, opperative Grand Master Hiram Abiff, who for his integrety and fidelity was slain just prior to the completion of the temple... as his body was said to have been raised, so shall I now raise you, by the strong grip of Master Mason or Lion's Paw. And, when so raised I will communicate to you the substitute for that which was lost." He then raises the candidate and whispers the substitute word. In other words... Hiram does not get the substitute word whispered to him (he's dead after all)... the Candidate does.

Hope this helps. Blueboar (talk) 06:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No objections whatsoever. I knew much if not most of the material was potentially disputable. That's why I included it as a separate page. Also, unfortunately, there are probably even more legends from the other legends of Hiram page or whatever its called that I referenced on the Hiram talk page. I just didn't go through the entire page yesterday. For what it's worth, the identification with Golgotha does strike me as being more than a bit suspect as well, and certainly seems to be a direct reference to Jesus, which would be questionable. The source of that statement is the page, whose neutrality strikes me as being more than a bit questionable, in the section "Hiram Abiff - the Masonic Savior?". The quote does seem to be from the Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5-15th ed., said on that page to have been published by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky. It does not indicate exactly who has identified the two hills, however. I would assume that the source cited, if it is accurate, would be counted as reliable. There is a question however as to where they got their own info. And, from what I remember, that part of the country was probably the most seriously influenced by Pike, whose contributions to Masonic legends are I think sometimes considered a bit suspect? I doubt very seriously that I'd be able to verify the source one way or another, and I personally admit the web page cited isn't necessarily reliable, so unless I or someone else can verify it in a printed source or in a more reliable site, it probably will be removed before the content is transferred, if it ever is. Regarding the word to Hiram, ouch. I should have caught that myself. That will be changed. Sorry about that. Regarding the different version of the legend, where another mason as himself raises the candidate as himself, I guess the question there would be which version is the earlier. I personally have no way of knowing at this point one way or another, but I asssume the content would most reasonably focus on the earlier version primarily, maybe adding a single sentence or clause to indicate the variant form. John Carter (talk) 14:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would definitely place the Ephesians website in the "iffy" category re reliability... It may technically fall under the "reliable source" definition of WP:RS (although I do have questions as to whether it has fact checking "peer review" type editorial oversight)... but I don't think it is a source that really should be relied upon (if you see the difference). I agree with you in thinking that we should check their sources to make sure that they are quoting (and interpreting) the Kentucky monitor correctly.
 * By the way... I recommend a book by historian John Robinson named "A Pilgrim's Path"... it has a chapter that is all about the Hiramic Drama that may be informative. Robinson can be considered an independant source as he was not a Mason at the time he wrote his book (he did join several years later). Blueboar (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)