User talk:John from Idegon/Archive 67

User:Jsnovak
Hi,

Based on their comment on Talk:Dyer, Indiana, it looks like they're trying to edit in good faith and not intentionally vandalizing. It's likely that they don't know to look at past edit summaries - reaching out on their talk page might be beneficial. Legoktm (talk) 06:58, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Recently reverted edits on Fort Wayne, Indiana page
Though I respect your decision to revert my edits and will leave it, I completely disagree with your rationale. The Government section, as it currently exists, includes an entire paragraph devoted to the city's public safety, including the Fort Wayne Police Department, for which the photo illustrated, quite appropriately. More so than the photo that replaced it (which I actually captured in 2014, no less...). Momoneymoproblemz (talk) 00:05, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, thought it was a new add. One city's police car looks pretty much like another. There is no (nor should there be) any copy in the article about the police equipment. Outside of galleries, which most regular settlement article editors detest, all illustrations are supposed to be used to illustrate some portion of the copy in a way words cannot. We do not just add pictures. That is covered in both the illustration guidelines and the pillar policy NOT. So, how is a readers' understanding of Ft.Wayne expanded by knowing how they painted their police cars whenever this photo was taken? Can't say about FW, but the community I live in is currently sporting 4 different paint jobs on its squad cars. The available choices of models of squad cars is limited to about 5 plus or minus a year. Except in areas where there are enough asset forfeiture to supply the police, police agencies are limited to models tested and approved by either the Michigan State Police or LA County Sheriff's Department. Details at that level are beyond the scope of a settlement article, even a Good class one such as FW. John from Idegon (talk) 00:40, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Southport HS Notable Alumni
Just FYI- I added Cameron Perkins into the notable alumni section on the Southport High School page without logging in. I saw that every other person in that section had a source attached to their name and figured he would be removed anyways and I did not have time in that moment to go find and format a reference, so I removed my own edit. Just letting you know so it didn't look like I was removing someone else's correct work. Malmmf (talk) 06:38, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Horizon High School (Scottsdale, Arizona)
I am sorry if I came off as flippant and offended sensibilities. Here's the difficulty: Citing a single source for Horizon being in Phoenix is impossible to my knowledge. Everyone uses the address, which includes Scottsdale, AZ 85254, which naturally makes people think it's in Scottsdale. What other conclusion would draw? It is served by a primarily Scottsdale zip code.

But it's not in Scottsdale, and the only way to know that is to either drive it or compare a Scottsdale boundary map with the actual location of Horizon at 56th Street and Greenway Road in Phoenix.

Here's a Scottsdale boundary map, supplied by Google: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Scottsdale,+AZ/@33.6738949,-112.1386422,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x872b08d9a7772c97:0x26d2e412188fe618!8m2!3d33.4941704!4d-111.9260519

Here's a Horizon High School locator map, supplied by Google: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Horizon+High+School/@33.6250868,-112.0290375,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x872b73f75d2a24c5:0x76fe17c40977b035!8m2!3d33.6250868!4d-111.9589997

I tried to lay down a pin for Horizon on a Google map of Scottsdale's boundaries, but it would only stay on my maps. If I picked up the map and put it in a new browser, the location of Horizon was wiped out (unless I signed into Google.)

But any pin would show indisputably that Horizon is a good two miles outside Scottsdale, well within the Phoenix boundary.

There is secondary evidence. The major local newspaper refers to it as Phoenix Horizon, not Scottsdale Horizon: http://www.azcentral.com/picture-gallery/sports/high-school/2014/10/23/high-school-football-phoenix-horizon-vs-phoenix-pinnacle/17817153/

But I imagine that is not evidence enough to cite.

Sorry about the link. Hope that explains the edit.


 * First, sign your talk page posts by typing four tildes at the end. Second, please do not simply revert my reversion of your change as besides changing the name of the city in the lede, you also changed the name of a linked image file in the info box, which obviously broke the link to it. Third, secondary sources are what is preferred on Wikipedia. So if you want to change the city in the lede (not in the info box as that is supposed to be the official address), feel free to do so as long as you cite the source. It would be preferable if you had a source that stated the school was in Phoenix directly, rather than obliquely referring to "Phoenix Horizon", but the latter would be acceptable in absence of the former. John from Idegon (talk) 17:18, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

The Signpost: 6 September 2017
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User:Zoë2000/Daisy and Phoebe Tomlinson
I don't G5 can be applied here. It might (I actually don't know for sure) have applied if the page had been created while the user was on their first, short block, but as it is the page was created a few minutes before that block started (22:11, September 1 vs 23:06, September 1). Since there is no indication that the original named account was a sock of a previously blocked user G5 is off the table.

I don't care why this material goes as long as it does go. The user started off with an attack page, moved on to a grotesque hoax page, and then created this pile of junk, first in article space and then in user space. Virtually all of the user's article edits were hopeless. I don't know if this is WP:CIR mixed with a weird infatuation with twins and incest, trolling, a kid, or what. but we're well rid of it all. Meters (talk) 03:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You are correct, of course. I have seen it used for remaining crap from blocked users (IAR?), and it was deleted for that reason, but I think her editing while block evading made it actually eligible. No matter, it's gone and Zoe is back on Snapchat where she belongs. John from Idegon (talk) 14:43, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Marin Catholic High School
Is There Some Kind of Grandfather Clause for old edits that don't have references? What I mean is that none of the references seem to back up the other people attending Marin Catholic and you do not remove them, and this seems to be the case for many High Schools as well yet they are still up. - 70.118.40.18 Johnny Wilson Joe Raymo  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.118.40.18 (talk) 15:51, 8 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi, guys. Registered editors have something called a watchlist.  Articles of interest to the editor are added to it and any time those articles change, the editor is notified.  In addition, there is a real time list of all changes that occur to all articles, and there are editors that patrol those changes.  So yes, new edits are looked at much closer than existing content.  The reason I reverted Fouts is that there is no references in his bio to his attendance at Marin.  I looked at his bio when he was added the first time.  I imagine that many if not all of the other people in the notable people's list have references to their attendance in their bio, but honestly I haven't checked.  There are over 5.5 million articles on English Wikipedia alone, and every editor here is a volunteer.  Articles get checked over when they get checked over.  At one time in the 15 year history of Wikipedia, no one cared too much about references.  That has changed and it needed to.  English Wikipedia is the 5th most visited site on the entire internet.  We have a moral responsibility to provide sound information, as we are rapidly replacing the more traditional paper encyclopedias.  A person will never be able to cite Wikipedia for research as the article they are citing might change between the time they cited it and the time their work was reviewed.  In the past few years, a much greater emphasis has been placed on providing sources, as those sources can be cited.  Hope my explanation answers your question.  If not, feel free to ask for clarification. One other thing.  The article about your school is just that.  It is about your school.  Unlike Facebook, it is not for your school, nor is it the property of your school.  It is an independent encyclopedia article about the school, and virtually everything in it needs to be verifiable to sources independent of the school. Wikipedia is not social media. John from Idegon (talk) 16:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Cool. The first time I was going to mention that Dan Fouts Wikipedia Article mentions he went to Marin County for two years, but in one of the body paragraphs. I wasn't sure if that would have been suitable so I didn't go ahead with it. Would that have been enough? 70.118.40.18 (talk) 16:40, 8 September 2017 (UTC)


 * No. For the reasons mentioned above, we do not allow citations to Wikipedia itself.  Reliable sources are required. As I explained above, Wikipedia itself is not reliable. John from Idegon (talk) 16:42, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Page protection
Hello John, I saw the note you posted on top of this talk page, so I took the liberty and protected the page for 1 day. I apologize in advance, and let me know anytime if you would like the protection to be overturned. Best regards, Alex ShihTalk 03:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks like I protected before you asked (sigh of relief). By the way, I had a good chuckle at this edit summary. Thank you sir! Alex ShihTalk 03:42, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yea....I had the same feeling the entire 25 years I worked in customer service management, too; but pretty much, I loved every minute of it John from Idegon (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * , please extend the protection for a bit....the history of the unprotected page says it all. John from Idegon (talk) 06:27, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. Hope it's not too long. Alex ShihTalk 07:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Prince of Peace Catholic School listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Prince of Peace Catholic School. Since you had some involvement with the Prince of Peace Catholic School redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:21, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Signature socks
John, you'll probably need to try WP:AN/I for an edit filter or similar. I've blocked the one you reported to AIV. -- ferret (talk) 02:31, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Logansport High School
Nothing was out of guidelines, but I went ahead a changed the titles to try and make you happy. Sources were cited, if you had bothered to read them. Guidelines say that if a name is significant then they can be used, one coach taking them to the Championship is significant. Other names can be omitted if need be. The entire history of the conference was not spelled out, just the fact that they are one of the charter members, again, this falls under something "notable".Pennsy22 (talk) 03:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Take it to the article's talk page where it belongs. And I do not know what guidelines you are looking at, but the school article guidelines are quite clear, we do not discuss names of students or staff, unless they are notable (not significant, but I'd still argue that a high school coach leading a team to a state championship has little significance outside the school.) Just a note, I'm pretty much off until Monday night, so I'll reply to you at the article's talk then. John from Idegon (talk) 03:52, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You should have taken it to the talk page to start with before making such broad deletions. How can you say 4 championships isn't notable? We can remove it if you insist but if he's in the Indiana Hall of Fame or something would that make you happier? You could have made suggestions first before deleting. What happened to Good faith? and giving me a chance?Pennsy22 (talk) 03:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Uh, no. Ever hear of WP:BRD? I did exactly what I'm supposed to do. Your the one that re-added it without discussion. What is notable is irrelevant. State championships certainly can be discussed, but need reliable independent sources, as do any achievement or superlative in any article. The only source you used was the school's website. Get over it. Talk to you Monday. I've got a 20 hour day in front of me tomorrow and I need some sleep. John from Idegon (talk) 04:06, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly! "Reverting is reversing a prior edit, in whole or in part. Revert vandalism upon sight but revert an edit made in good faith only after careful consideration. It is usually preferable to make an edit that retains at least some elements of a prior edit than to revert the prior edit. Furthermore, your bias should be toward keeping the entire edit." You did not do this! YOU needed to take it to talk! Stop reverting and talk! If you want more sources I'll add them! I removed names! You are not helping the article.Pennsy22 (talk) 04:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The vast majority of what you are adding is not an improvement to the article and cannot be fixed with simple editing. I do not have the time to discuss it with you now, which I have told you twice prior to this. You are not helping the article either. I'll discuss it with you Monday night. The article was fine for eight years without your additions; it'll keep a couple more days. (Which by the way, is the genesis of the logic behind BRD. Once someone objects to an addition, AGF requires the stable content to remain while the contentious new content is discussed.) I notice most of your talk page is covered with discussion of ships, most likely a much more important topic than schools. (I'm not being facetious) Please realize that schools are covered differently than ships, due to the sources available and more importantly, the editors that primarily work on them. School articles are edited primarily by kids, and because of that, we try to keep content in the lines of things that are demonstrably of interest outside the school community. When there is 0 discussion of anything academic in the article, it's very hard to justify whole sections on the history of the school colors and the athletic mascot that are just rehashes of material from the school's website. The athletic section in a school article should simply be a listing of the sports offered and the state championships won, with a mention of the conference and the school colors. The conference has its own article, its history belongs there. The history of the school's colors or mascot belongs right where you got it from. Unless it has been the subject of sustained coverage in secondary sources, it doesn't belong. We do not write political geography articles (settlements, schools, roads etc) for the locals. Instead, we summarize what has been written about them in reliable secondary sources. John from Idegon (talk) 05:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, now you are actually explaining your changes, but for your information, the article was created February 2016. I now see where you are coming from. I was using the guidelines to try to add what I felt was right, I've looked at a FA high school page and have a better understanding. I thought I wasn't being biased so I didn't see a problem. I think the mascot is significant because of its storied past, I can add a lot of secondary sources. Its just very upsetting when you spend hours on something and its all undone with little explanation. I will change the material you removed to be inline with your explanation. Please let me add more refs and talk to me before reverting again.Pennsy22 (talk) 05:18, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * If you edit the article again adding any of the material you've added, I will be taking you to a noticeboard. Gain a consensus. I'm sorry you are not grasping that concept, but that is how this works. I'm unavailable until Monday night, your ridiculous childish need to have your problems addressed on YOUR schedule and in the way YOU want them addressed are disruptive and I'm done. You're not a kid. You have no consensus to add anything about a mascot, colors, game scores, non notable individuals or anything else related to your recent additions. Also you need to learn how to discuss edits not editors and how to write a neutral title on a talk page too. See ya next week. DO NOT REPLY. John from Idegon (talk) 05:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Ooh, naughty audacious John! Have a nice weekend, mate, and don't let angry editors spoil it ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

School sources
What are the best places to source enrollment numbers for public and private schools in the U.S.? Thanks! Jacona (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * NCES. It's the only place where all the vital stats (enrollment, staff, demographics) are found for virtually all schools, and it is the source that others like US News & World Report and Schooldigger.com use. I'd like to see it used universally, but that probably won't happen. Some state's DOE have all the numbers easily available (Indiana notably), some don't. When there is good state info, it is used sometimes because it's usually available for the last completed school year. NCES is at 14-15 now. However, the states don't have the private school numbers and I feel there is an advantage in having a fixed point for stats to based on like the Census does for comparative purposes. Long explanation for a short answer. Sorry. Good to see you around again, ! John from Idegon (talk) 16:11, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I observed an unsourced enrollment change for a Florida school, but when I looked up the particular school in NCES, the most recent enrollment data was from 2013-2014. From personal knowledge, I know the school has grown a ton, and the unsourced number looks accurate, but I can't find a source. Hopefully they have one, but just didn't cite it. I'm leaving it in place, just wishing I knew a way to source it. Thanks! Jacona (talk) 17:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * What school, ? That seems a bit weird, as a random sampling of Florida schools on NCES all showed stats for 14-15 and ID data from 15-16. In any case, I'd handle that by going with the NCES stats for statistical purposes and finding a journalistic source for the growth spurt and adding copy on that. John from Idegon (talk) 18:54, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Copyright violations for the Model High School page
As a second generation graduate of Model High School, 20 year veteran teacher at Model High School, and 2 years as Instructional Assistant Principal at Model High School, I can assure you that I have permission to use the information that I added to the Model High School Wikipedia page. With the exception of the History, all of the other information consists of my words verbatim - actually taken from the brochure that I created for Model High School. What exactly do I need to do to prove that I have permission from The Watters District Council for Historic Preservation to use "The History of Model School"? If you must revert please only do so with the History until I can prove that I have permission to use it. Everything else on there is correct information that I accessed from our current records. Thank you for your time. Anbrock (talk) 23:36, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * , I can only assume that if you are who you claim to be, you should certainly have enough education and experience to completely understand why I cannot believe you are who you say you are. On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog. Second, again if you are who you say you are, you should know that things you write in the course of your employment are not yours to claim copyright on, but your employer's, in this case the school district. It's a fair assumption that your school district does not empower assistant principals with the authority to enter into legal agreements on their behalf. Lastly, since you state above that amongst your responsibilities is creating brochures for the school, you are classified as a WP:PAID editor and as such you are currently in violation of Wikimedia's terms of use. Accordingly, this discussion is over until you comply with the legally binding terms linked above. Do not post here, edit the article or post anywhere else until you are in compliance. John from Idegon (talk) 01:15, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Thaddeus S. Lott, Sr.
Hi John from Idegon. Would you mind taking a look at Thaddeus S. Lott, Sr.? I'm not sure of if this person is notable per WP:BIO or WP:TEACHER. It looks like it was created by an SPA whose first edit was to create the draft and who subsequently skipped AfC and directly added the article to the mainspace. This might mean anything, but it could mean there some kind of connection between the SPA and the subject. Anyway, you have worked on lots of school-related articles, including biographies I imagine, so I'd figured you'd be a good person to ask. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:07, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

, the Jefferson Award makes it notable. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking . I saw the Jefferson Awards for Public Service, but wasn't sure it that alone was enough for notability. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

All Saints Episcopal School (Tyler, Texas)
Hello John,

I am working with the school to provide updated and accurate information. I will continue to lengthen and better the page over the next few weeks, and I promise I will provide my sources. Please, if you ever remove an edit I make, I would appreciate it if you would let me know what I did wrong and how I can fix it correctly. Thanks! Lrtwaddell (talk) 04:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC)lrtwaddell


 * , are you familiar with WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines? Drmies (talk) 03:47, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

No, this is my first time really working on fixing up a Wikipedia page. I have done my research on how to edit and the basic rules of the road. Lrtwaddell (talk) 04:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC)lrtwaddell


 * Those are written up by the members of the Wikiproject on schools. Go look at them--you will find them helpful. Please sign your edits: that tirritating SineBot keeps interfering to sign for you, causing me edit conflicts. Good luck, Drmies (talk) 03:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * , are you being compensated for this work? If so, please read WP:COI (which applies to you whether or not you are being paid) and WP:PAID. Please understand, this isn't a page in the school's social media portfolio. This is an independent encyclopedia article about the school. It isn't by, or for, the school. Pretty much, we do not care what the school has to say about itself. The school has no say in what is in this article. If you cannot provide a source totally independent of the school for each and every change you request (you have no business editing the article directly. Any changes you want need to be proposed on the talk page, complete with properly formatted reliable independent citations), it isn't going to happen. Even if you do provide reliable well sourced info it is no guarantee it will appear in the article. Article's content is decided by consensus. I understand that being in the business of providing educational opportunities for a fee must be a very difficult proposition, when you are the small guy and the big guy is 100% government subsidized (and don't take that the wrong way - my son attends a non denominational Christian school), but one of Wikimedia's pillar policies is WP:NOT. The specific section that applies is WP:NOTPROMO. Over the five plus years I've been here, I've seen a 1000% rise in the attempted use of Wikipedia for advertising. I'm one of the coordinators of the WikiProject Drmeis mentioned above and I spend an inordinate amount if my time removing marketing material from private and parochial school articles. Bottom line is, as long as we are straight on what the expectations need to be on your end, and what the restricted requirements are for your contributions here, I'm glad to help. However, any indication on your part that your not willing to adjust your expectations (and those of the school), or any refusal to abide by our expectations, and my help will vanish. Like the school you're working with has the higher ideal of educating youngsters both in the basics and in the love of Christ, we maintain a higher ideal of providing pure knowledge, not promotion. Thanks for reading this. I'll try not to be so verbose in the future. John from Idegon (talk) 04:26, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to explain myself further. I am a senior at All Saints and am doing this completely on my own for no compensation whatsoever. This is not a school project, just a personal project. It bothered me that my school had a Wikipedia page that was only a stub, so I decided I would try to change that. This is not an advertising attempt. I just want my school to be represented with accurate and detailed information, as I know Wikipedia strives to accomplish. I will be happy to jump through whatever hoops it takes to do so. I will no longer try to directly edit the page. I’ll leave that up to you, but I will send you the information with proper sources for you to edit if I understand what you were requesting correctly. I truly appreciate your understanding and willingness to help me out. As you can tell, I’m new to this, so bear with me.

Lrtwaddell (talk) 04:41, 22 September 2017 (UTC)lrtwaddell


 * Uh, no. Post an edit request at the article's talk page please. Details on how to do that are linked in the COI link above. Some good sources are ed.nces.gov for stats and the state athletic sanctioning body (sorry the name for it in Texas is escaping me) for athletics info. Thanks. I'll leave you a link on your talk page to a forum for new editors. They are very helpful, but also overrun by people abusing Wikipedia for profit. Glad you're here. And don't sweat it too much....for most schools there really isn't all that much to say. Some indisputable things can be sourced to the school, such as a list of AP courses, the existence of arts programs like band (but nothing qualitative) and history, if no other source can be found and it is written very neutrally. John from Idegon (talk) 06:14, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 September 2017
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Bryan Station High School
"Bryan Station’s enrollment as of day 10 had dropped 385 students compared to the same day last year, from 1,815 students in 2016 to 1,430 students this year." (http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article173261536.html) From the source. I did read my source FYI. The source SPECIFICALLY said 1430 students this year.
 * The number listed in the article was the 1700 figure, which came from the NCES, which is data from 14-15. Sign your posts. The NCES figure provide a complete dataset, and the data are inter-related (demographics depend on enrollment, ratio depends on teaching staff and enrollment).  This isn't a newspaper, and it is not our job to give the most up to date data.  It is give the most informative data. If you wish to cover the drop in enrollment, that should be done by writing copy based on the newspaper story, not by changing a single figure in the infobox.  That just leaves people guessing. John from Idegon (talk) 16:48, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * This is why I didn’t post it because I was waiting for the full information. I just didn’t want people thinking that wiki was fine with publishing data from 2014. Ral 33 17:07, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Wiki IS fine with publishing data from 2014. And please learn how to properly sign your posts. (type 4 tildes ~ at the end.  This signs your posting with a link to your talk page and a time stamp and it is not optional.) John from Idegon (talk) 17:12, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I have been signing my posts as you can see in my second post on this. It was only the initial post I did not sign. Please learn how to separate postings so it is easier to read on the editor view (using the enter key). Ral 33 17:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Then your signature is out of policy. It MUST provide a link to your talk page.  And you are the one not following proper talk page protocol.  The proper way to thread a talk conversation is to use colons for indenting, as I did in my intitial reply to you, adding one more colon for each new post.  I have threaded this conversation properly so you can see how it is done.  Please fix your signature. John from Idegon (talk) 17:38, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, having read your link above, I don't see the importance of discussing it at all. According to the source provided, it is a temporary phenomenon caused by the district's policy of allowing students to stay at their original school rather than transferring them to the new school.  Attendance is supposed to level off after the last class affected by this graduates.  If it doesn't, then it may be a relevant discussion to add to the school district's article.  Again, a school article is not a place to discuss a temporary situation.  We should be taking the long view. John from Idegon (talk) 17:38, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Haverhill Massachusetts
Hello, sorry I used bad grammar on my edit. Thanks for correcting it Bankdude36 (talk) 18:20, 30 September 2017 (UTC)