User talk:Johnrpenner

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Sorry to scare you off, but...
I'm afraid I was following Wikipedia policy. According to WP:BLP, if an article deals with living people, as Religious debates over Harry Potter does, any information added without a source that could prove controversial must be removed, or Wikipedia could face libel action. I understand what you're trying to say, and I think it's a useful distinction to make, but in order to make it you would have to cite a poll or some other third-party source. Otherwise you're just stating an opinion. Wikipedia isn't a place to write essays; everything has to be verifiable, especially when it concerns a topic as controversial as this one.  Serendi pod ous  07:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Goethe & auctions
Hey--It's a neat point about Goethe, but that's probably not the best place for it. I'd suggest putting it in Vickrey auction, and reference more formal sources than the blog. Two sources are: Cretog8 (talk) 17:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Goethe's Second-Price Auction" by Moldovanu & Tietzel, Journal of Political Economy, 1998. It's available on jstor, or as a working paper (i.e. not yet peer-reviewed, but free to download) at.
 * Other Vickrey auction history in "Vickrey Auctions in Practice: From Nineteenth-Century Philately to Twenty-First-Century E-Commerce" by Lucking-Reiley, Journal of Economic Perspectives, 2000. It's available on jstor, or for free (not sure about review status) at.

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Waldorf growth chart

 * John - I was looking at your chart; it works well most of the way through but is misleading at both ends, where the 5-year interval between data points is either much longer or somewhat shorter. Perhaps there should be 3 gaps between the first two points (1916 and '35) leaving room for 1920, 25 and 30, as there were in the previous chart. The end-point is also bothersome; it might be better to leave it off and just mention the current number in the article.


 * Incidentally, the official Waldorf list changed; at one point it listed more than 1,000 schools and then was reduced again. Puzzling. Hgilbert (talk) 19:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

hi - thanks - any idea where i could get all the numbers for all the years?? i was just going by the illustration that was there before, and trying to make it better than it was -- if we had the original numbers from somewhere, it'd sure make it easier to get the chart right. :-) Johnrpenner (talk) 23:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry; didn't see this before. Data is sparse for most of the years; my original image listed the sources I used. hgilbert (talk) 18:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

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Waldorf schools growth chart
Now that we're using your chart, perhaps you would be willing to update it at least through to 2010 (then we could wait a few years, since we're charting five-year intervals). The 2009 figure is 994 schools world-wide; see the official school list. I hope this is all right to ask of you! hgilbert (talk) 18:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Here are the numbers: Year	1925	1930	1935	1938	1945	1950	1955	1962	1965	1971	1975	1980 Schools	7	15	n/a	16	n/a	n/a	41	66	n/a	95	150	220

Year	1985	1990   1995	2000	2005	2009 Schools	362	480	600	800	923	994

Schopenhauer and Goethe
Thank you for replacing my neologism "oppositely" with the legitimate adverb "conversely." I disagree, however, with your rejection of Schopenhauer's claim that Goethe investigated external stimuli instead of the observing subject's physiology. I originally had:

"Newton, Goethe, and all other color theorists began by investigating light and colored bodies in order to find the cause of color. They should have started with an investigation of the effect, the given phenomenon, the changes in the eye."

You changed it to:

"Newton and almost all other color theorists began by investigating light and colored bodies in order to find the cause of color. Schopenhauer followed Goethe in starting an investigation of the effect, the given phenomenon, the changes in the eye."

Schopenhauer's words were: "Newton's fundamental mistake was simply that he, without obtaining some accurate knowledge of the effect according to its inner reference and relation, was in too much of a hurry to go in search of the cause. Yet this same mistake is common to all theories of color from the oldest to the latest of Goethe [ist dasselbe Versehn allen Farbentheorien von den ältesten bis auf die letzte von Goethe gemeinsam]."

As you can see, Schopenhauer included Goethe as the latest in that group of color theorists who ignored the effect of color on the observer's body and, instead, began by investigating the external stimuli that caused the effect.

Schopenhauer asserted:

"All speak of what modifications either the surface of a body or what modifications light&hellip;must undergo&hellip;. Instead of this, it is obvious that the correct way is first to turn our attention to the sensation itself, in order to explore whether we might not elicit from its nature and regular conformity that of which it consists in and by itself, hence what it is physiologically. Obviously such an accurate knowledge of the effect, which is the point in question when speaking of colors, will furnish us with data for finding the cause, in other words, for discovering the external stimulus that excites such a sensation."

Do you disagree with Schopenhauer? Isn't it true that Goethe began by investigating the stimuli that caused the sensation of color in the eye? Schopenhauer claimed that the investigation of color should start with the knowledge of the eye's response to the external stimuli. Schopenhauer insisted on the subjective nature of color in that it exists in the eye, not in external objects. He criticized Goethe's Realism and its unconcern with the constitution of the observer. Goethe investigated the relationships between darkness and light. In so doing, he assumed that colors exist outside of the observing subject, in external objects. Schopenhauer, on the contrary, claimed that color exists in the observer's nervous system. (Color does not have to be caused by light reflecting off of an object. It can even be caused by pressure on the eyeball or by a blow to the head.)Lestrade (talk) 15:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

> Thank you Lestrade, for your thoughtful responses - I changed it because I thought it had been arbitrary that Newton & Goethe had been lumped together at the start of the sentence - and I've understood that Newton & Goethe took two quite different approaches to colour (i.e. Newton chose the analytic method, and according to Goethe, "Newton's error... was trusting math over the sensations of his eye". from what i've read of Schopenhauer, I understood that he thought Goethe to have provided a phenomenal account, without providing a theory (which Schopenhauer was happy to furnish) - so with these two thoughts in mind, I made the change -

yet now -- having seen your text here, I think I must defer -- since Schopenhauer is the one who put Goethe and Newton together (that is very curious for me! ;-) -- i'd like to revert the edit, but somehow not quite sure of how to change it now, because my Newton/Goethe reservations. i'm open to whatever you suggest. thx for your good scholarship. :-) all the best. 216.121.237.69 (talk) 18:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Newton and Goethe were not absolutely different from each other. Some of their characteristics were similar, other characteristics were different. For example, they were different from each other because Newton used experiments in his investigations whereas Goethe would only be a non–interfering observer of existing conditions. Schopenhauer claimed that they were similar to each other because they both studied color by researching the external (to the observer's nervous system) stimuli that caused color. Schopenhauer's method was the opposite. He studied color by researching the internal effects that occur in the observer's nervous system and sense organ when color is experienced. As a Kantian Transcendental Idealist, Schopenhauer believed that the way that an observer experiences the world is conditioned by the way that his/her sense organs and nervous system are constituted. He claimed that the objective is conditioned by the subjective.Lestrade (talk) 14:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Holism in science
In the article, you wrote "it seeks to understand organisms in terms of their development, and not just for their suitability to a particular purpose". I can't see how mainstream biology can be described like this. Biology may ascribe a "purpose" to an organ within an animal, but not to individual animals or species. It's a basic tenet in evolutionary biology that evolution do not have a purpose. I am aware that Goethe is seen as an opponent to the version of science Descartes and Newton championed, but I think this is missing the point somehow. EverGreg (talk) 08:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

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Stereolab
→  in re: 

You posted the following on my user talk page: "hey - why'd you delete the stereolab 'not music' page!? this is useful information that i went to wikipedia to look up - and now its been deleted.. by you. @#$@#$ you just made wikipedia less useful. grrr. :-P Johnrpenner (talk) 16:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC) [ diff ] "

The sole author created and blanked it in three edits between 16:45 and 16:55, 25 December (UTC), it was tagged per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion by another editor, after which it was included in the Category:Candidates for speedy deletion by user. – Athaenara ✉  22:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

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Steiner's coming out
I hope you don't mind; rather than the phrase 'coming out', I've tried to supply a brief history of the progression involved. This seems to me to be both more detailed and less prone to misunderstanding, as he didn't really announce himself as a spiritual figure, but just began quietly talking and writing about relevant themes. Let me know if you have any concerns with the new wording, please. hgilbert (talk) 18:51, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

ya, i saw your edits — you've improved it. :-) the reason i used the phrase was i think, due to steiner using the phrase in the autobiography(citation needed) – but of course, that is a translation. from steiner's autobiography, he made it clear that it was really a struggle for him to actually come to a point where he would take the step where he would 'come out' with his ideas on spiritual science (instead of remaining the respectable goethe and schiller scholar as he had thus far presented himself in the world) — and the event of this was particularly the talk about 'goethe's secret revelation' on the lily and the green snake in 1899, and his subsequent invitation by the brockdorf's to speak to the theosophists.

thanks for taking the time to do a good edit.. blessings. Johnrpenner (talk) 17:10, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Theory of Colours - Newton and Goethe - Steiner's chapter III (or VIII)
Revision at 14:51, 23 October 2012: Johnrpenner, may be you can help with this? The article is quoting (an English translation of) Steiner about Newton vis-a-vis Goethe, and would benefit if the passage in Newton's Opticks which corresponds to the quotation from Steiner were identified. But a search is hampered by not knowing wherebouts to look in the Opticks or how close is the wording of the English translation of Steiner's paraphrase in German. If there is no such single passage, perhaps some explanation should be put in the main text of the article, or in the footnote?Qexigator (talk) 16:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

good show — steiner's explanation was the shortest best explanation i could find at the time — in the ensuing years, better sources may have appeared on the internets.. i was very happy to see that newton's work is now available online, and that you were able to link to it at the newton project — thx for finding the links and improving the article!! :-D Johnrpenner (talk) 01:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

November 2013
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Norman Milliken Magnolia677 has made a nomination for deletion of this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Norman_Milliken_(2nd_nomination) Magnolia677 has made a previous nomination for deletion, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Norman_Milliken   You reviewed the article and judged  as a keep. Magnolia677's second nomination deletion is unchanged. The article's content is unchanged since the last nomination for deletion. Magnolia677 reasons for deletion in the second nomination for deletion are the same as the reasons that were rejected in the last discussion around the first nomination for deletion by Magnolia677. This should be a speedy keep. Or lets do the discussion all over again. Unionville(talk99.231.130.238 (talk) 13:49, 1 November 2015 (UTC)Unionvllle

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