User talk:JonRichfield/Archive 7

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Archives
I've set up archiving for you: the bot runs once per day, so you should soon see a cleaner talkpage with a nice list of archives at the top. -- (talk) 21:54, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, Slashme, but almost all of it has gone, plus, the archive box at the top is empty. ???? JonRichfield (talk) 13:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The "archive box" is the search box: there you can type a search term to search through the archives. The little blue 1,2,3 are the links to the archives themselves. --Slashme (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, Slashme, the archive box now is working. When I first tried it it was empty. Things look OK now thanks.

Relax duplicate linking rule (again!)
You might be interested to see that I'm reopening the issue of duplicate links at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Linking. I haven't yet put in a fixed proposal, because I first want to see what level of relaxation would receive wide support. --Slashme (talk) 21:47, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Regarding which: I think you're saying some good things, but such "walls of text" tend to discourage perusal. I would suggest shorter comments, perhaps more tightly focused. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Right J. Johnson (JJ). I guess I'll have to rethink.

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I stumbled on your post...
...here and wanted to say how much I admire your deflation of the puffed up sweeping "we" imperiousness. I've been on the receiving end of it elsewhere and it's infuriating. EEng (talk) 18:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Much thanks EEng; nice to be reminded, even rarely, that not everyone in WP is a Wikilawyer, Wikiwarrior or WikiAH... I actually had forgotten that exchange! :) All the best, JonRichfield (talk) 18:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

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November 2015
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Happy New Year!


Every morning is a new day. I hope 2016 is a very good year for you. Best regards, – Corinne (talk) 19:08, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

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Seasons greetings
A belated Happy New Year to you! (Welcomed back to Last Word in a letter – wow!) Peter coxhead (talk) 11:32, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks Peter. Your good wishes heartily reciprocated! I'll have to look up that letter; I haven't seen it. Confidentially, due to some sort of glitch, my contributions had been ignored for several months, so, assuming that my style had worn thin, I had tacitly resigned until I got some unexpected email. So OK, my apologies to anyone I had let down! :D All the best for the year! Jon

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Should the current artist's impression be removed from the Planet Nine infobox?
Regards,  nagual design  15:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

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"squaring the circle"
I'm probably done filling that RfC with substantive arguments (as I think people are tired of it; and it's run its course)...but you should consider the article "squaring the circle"....changing it to "squaring the disk" is the analogue...now, of course, this is totally absurd and would be only laughed at...go look at that article too...it would have to be totally rewritten to avoid "area of a circle" and "circle's area"...68.48.241.158 (talk) 20:03, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

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Links to nonexistent articles
Hi Jon, The Wikipedia convention for links to articles that don't yet exist, but are clearly justified by notability criteria is simply to use a WP:Redlink, which encourages interested editors to create the missing articles, and then when the article is created, the link is already there. Cheers, &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 17:58, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

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Caterpillar
Hi there!

Any idea what this colourful fellow might be? --Slashme (talk) 14:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

As I told your friend (and I assume you have seen it by now, just answering here to avoid mix-ups) it is Family Saturniidae, and something close to the cabbage treee emperor moth Bunaea alcinoe. JonRichfield (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you!! --Slashme (talk) 07:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

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Xylenes
I revised parts of your recent edits of xylene. If you dont like what I did then let me know or complain or revert or whatever. I will be distracted for a couple of days so its all yours for a while. --Smokefoot (talk) 04:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Not much problem I guess. I had originally added that text because the C8H10 formula had been mentioned. Because of the implied ambiguity I had mentioned the two major classes of non-xylene compounds for proper perspective. Personally, I prefer more concepts rather than fewer in such a context, but as you removed the not-very-relevant C8H10 while retaining the more practically relevant dimethyl formula, it does remove the source of digression. I can't remember how I got into this edit anyway. Something to do with p-Xylene...? JonRichfield (talk) 05:08, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * There has been an effort by some of us to make sure that the text does not repeat the content of the ChemBox. Thus, the formula for the title compound in the text should be descriptive vs just empirical, which is in the ChemBox.  That way, the article's discussion can zoom in on the functionality and structure.  Thanks for the note and best wishes,--Smokefoot (talk) 11:46, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem; go well! JonRichfield (talk) 14:18, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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User:JonRichfield/Hood (zoology)
Hi! it looks like you may have mistakenly posted an incomplete article to the main (article) space. I've moved it to User:JonRichfield/Hood (zoology), where you can continue to develop it if you choose. All the best, --Animalparty! (talk) 21:11, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I could have sworn that I had put User:JonRichfield etc at the start, but I am getting to the state where I am having junior moments where younger people have senior moments. I had run across a need for such an article but did not have time to prepare it, so I started to set it up in my space as a reminder against the time that I could get to it, and obviously fouled up. I much appreciate your intervention! Cheers JonRichfield (talk) 03:53, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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James Watson
Thank you for your contribution to the James Watson discussion. Please keep active as that is the only way to prevent that page from again being hijacked. Landerman56 (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

You are welcome of course. I'll try. JonRichfield (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

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I am Creating A Separate Lek Paradox Article
Hey sorry if I'm posting this on the wrong thing, but I'm kind of new to Wikipedia. My user name is allergicapples. I am a Biology major at Adelphi University and I have to create, or substantially edit, a wikipedia article for my Biology Capstone. I decided to research the Lek Paradox, and wanted to create a page separate from yours on "lek mating." We were allowed to, and I did, incorporate established wikipedia entries into our own, and I did use some of your work in the "Lek Paradox" section on Lek mating. The article is complete, and everything but I haven't submitted yet to Wikipedia. I wanted to check in with you to make sure I'm not stepping on your shoes at all, as I have to upload it next week. You can reach me on my talk page that I will check daily. Allergicapples (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi and welcome Allergicapples. I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask, as I have done very little on Lekking. As for stepping on my shoes, that is not of direct interest in good-faith work in WP, so don't let it worry you. The updating of a whole sizeable section might attract some reaction, but need not be serious as long as your edits follow the rules. The articles do NOT belong to the author anyway, and good work that expands an article is welcome. If anyone starts bullying you, you can always call in an arbitrator. Just remember to keep your cool at all times and not to feed the trolls nor gratify any nasty little wikiwarriors. The one thing that worries me is your speaking of a separate article, which sounds as though it amounts to forking. There are rules about that. I recommend that you read a bit about it at Content forking. I have no fish to fry, and as long as all is in order in terms of the rules, you need not worry about other editors, but if you are in fact being naughty according to the rules, then you might have your effort rejected very rapidly. If you are left in doubt, drop me another note, and I'll try to assist, though I am no WP expert. (I suppose you HAVE looked at the Help:Contents?) JonRichfield (talk) 17:35, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Hey again, thanks for answering back. I think that I will take your advice and post to the lek mating and edit the "lek paradox section" and will do this probably on wendesday.Allergicapples (talk) 23:06, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * @|Allergicapples no problem. Hope it goes well and you become a regular. Cheers. JonRichfield (talk) 05:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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All the best for 2017!
 '''Hello , Enjoy the Winter Solstice and the Christmas and holiday season'''. Thank you for all your good work during 2016 in maintaining, improving and expanding Wikipedia. All the best for 2017! Cheers, — Gareth Griffith-Jones &#124; The Welsh &#124; Buzzard &#124; 16:31, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Gareth Griffith-Jones Gareth, Good to hear from you again. The best of the festives to you, friends and family. We'll be spending it quietly, then taking a short trip to a fynbos area unfamiliar to me, where I hope to get some new photos and enjoy a silence that, to translate the reaction of an Afrikaans friend of mine, has the impact of an explosion. I have never yet been in an outdoor area too quiet for me. I attach a few photos, from garden and nature reserve. JonRichfield (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Such a great response! ... so colourful that I cannot resist copying it to my Talk page. — Gareth Griffith-Jones &#124; The Welsh &#124; Buzzard &#124; 09:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Gareth Griffith-Jones Only an honour and a pleasure; be happy! JonRichfield (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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Copying within Wikipedia requires proper attribution
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Thysanura into Zygentoma. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g.,. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted copied template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. If you are the sole author of the prose that was moved, attribution is not required. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi Diannaa, my apologies for the solecism. While I understand the general idea, I have not achieved full clarity, so forgive a few questions please. For one thing, I had not been aware that in moving an article to another title any acknowledgement was necessary, so I had not explicitly mentioned the move/copy in my edit summary. I have of course not the slightest objection to such a practice. I certainly was not a contributor to the originally moved material, though I have in fact contributed since. The actual course of events was that I had originally intended to swap the two articles, one being a redir to the other. On reflection I concluded that it would give a better perspective to copy Thys to Zyg and trim and alter Thys accordingly. Zyg also required hefty editing in its new form, partly, apart from the changed context, because the material had been neglected for some time. SO: I am not sure about what to do about attribution within the article text; it is not as though I were copying text from an externally published work, so I could not see where to put it. For now I have done a token edit and put the following into the edit summary: "The bulk of this article was moved from the article Thysanura, and both articles edited in reflection of the current status of the order names". I also inserted into the lede: "Accordingly much of the material in this article on Zygentoma was copied from Thysanura; see that page's history for attributions to source material." I am uncertain whether this either of these suffices, or is appropriate, so please comment or edit as you see fit. In the past I think I may have done something similar to other articles once or twice, but if so I have not the vaguest idea to which articles or in which conetext, so I don't even know where to search and must beg off. Please comment, and meanwhile, thanks for your assistance, JonRichfield (talk) 06:29, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * From the above post it's clear you do understand what's required: When moving content from one Wikipedia article to another, you need to state in your edit summary at the destination article what the source article was. That's all there is to it. Thanks, — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 11:37, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

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Invertebrata
Jon— I just made some edits to the article on Invertebrates, and though you probably have it on your watch list already (?), I wanted to notify you and get your thoughts. This class of animals is, as I understand it, no longer considered particularly useful because it is like saying "there are those animals which can swim, and those which cannot swim" or "those which have four limbs, and those which have numbers other than four". I tried to make this point clearer to readers... Let me know if I ended up doing that! Thanks!!@ KDS4444 (talk) 12:44, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi KDS I tripped over Gareth in editing, added a couple of refs, and corrected the use of "phylum" which was out of proper use there. Whether anyone will dislike "taxon" there, I don't know, but we'll see. I think that it looks pretty OK.

Look after! JonRichfield (talk) 14:15, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!
Slashme Much thanks! JonRichfield (talk) 04:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

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== Please comment on Talk:List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming ==

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Ref
Which ref supports "The vaccine that the FDA recommends is an oral attenuated live vaccine that is effective as a single dose" Best Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:12, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

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Notice old RfC withdrawn and recreated with a clarified question
This is to notify you that the prior RfC at Talk:List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming was withdrawn as the question confused several people, and instead it was re-opened with a new clarified question. I am notifying all those that responded to the old RfC (except those that have already responded) so that they may comment on the new RfC. The new RfC is here: Talk:List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming Obsidi (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

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WP:LEAD
The lead is the introduction and generally provides a three to four paragraph overview of a condition. Best Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 07:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

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I added a missing quote mark, and saw a need to take out "as illustrated here." If possible, please make sure I didn't disimprove it. And thanks for your expansion of the article! -- Jo3sampl (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

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Heddwch ac ewyllys da
A treat to hear from you again Gareth; Here are two photos I took in our "Village" grounds. Both were lucky shots. Click for the full size. I hope they put you into the right mood for the festive season and new year.
 * Thankyou, Jon. Truly breathtaking. &#8209; &#8209; Gareth Griffith&#8209;Jones&#160;The Welsh Buzzard &#8209; &#8209; 20:20, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

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 * I withdrawn the RfCs in part because of this comment and others. Thank you for participating. There are other topics that can be improved. QuackGuru ( talk ) 19:43, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

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Your contributions to article Mosquito
Greetings. Since 17 Oct 2018, I have made 62 edits to the article Mosquito, adding 1,495 characters. Most of my edits are related to phrasing and organization, and Lead content. I noticed today you contributed 47 edits, adding a whopping 27,549 characters to the article; and that you last added to it in 2014.

The reason for this note to you is to request, if you are so inclined, that you, as its most prolific contributor, review Mosquito to see if there are any edits that I - and others - have made over the past 4 years that you would like to modify. Or is the article as it now stands acceptable to you?

Best wishes, IiKkEe (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


 * @IiKkEe Wow! I had no idea that I had done so much! OK, I am just a bit snowed under for now, but will try ASAP. JonRichfield (talk) 15:48, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt and enthusiastic response! Peruse at your leisure... Regards, IiKkEe (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


 * @IiKkEe Mmm OK. Let's see how this works out. To avoid long delays, I'd better tackle it section by section. That might cause poor attention to article structure, but should be faster. DO please understand that some of what I say might seem abrasive, but it is not intended so, and what I say is not intended to be prescription or stricture, just my take on the fly. Sometimes it is a matter of style, though I'll avoid that as far as I easily can, but in other cases (such as "that are a type of fly") I'll be correcting technical errors. Instead of editing it in the article, I think it would be better to work it in my user files. I have created a copy at User:JonRichfield/mosquito. You should be able to edit it there directly without much harm. JonRichfield (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)


 * @IiKkEe I have started on the article, and there is quite a lot to do. I had hoped to be further by now, but Real Life, plus a computer crash have interfered. Have you had a chance yet to check out the first edits in my workspace? I had to spend quite a lot of time finding refs for a lot of points, had to correct some, and if we do nothing more than fill in the necessary citations, that should take us some time. Also, I removed some text that contained material that was better linked to in Wiktionary; Wikipedia is not a dictionary. JonRichfield (talk) 19:32, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I have taken a superficial quick look at your workspace, with 3 initial reactions. First, I really really like your style of sentence construction. Second, I appreciate the courtesy of your invitation to "edit your edits" on your workspace. Third, comparing the current article to your version is a bit of a challenge: I'm going to confine my editing of your draft to the Lead for starters. Is it OK with you if I make alterations of your draft on your workspace by using boldface for additions and substitutions, and italics for deletions? I'll make a second copy of the Lead below yours so as to preserve your original. Regards, IiKkEe (talk)
 * @IiKkEe Sounds OK for now. Let's see how it works. JonRichfield (talk) 13:32, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * @IiKkEe OOps! I have dug deeper as I progressed, and I think it would be better if you held off my version for a few days. I am having to do some restructuring, and it might be a little longer before I get things coherent. How close to the final version (of this stage of the work) we will be then, I don't know, but as I see it we need to settle the structure before it will be practical to edit a common document. Of course, that should not inhibit you from any work you do independently. JonRichfield (talk) 12:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Message received, I will hold off as requested. Not sure what you mean by "settle the structure": are you referring to section titles? Could you provide me with a brief explanation? Thanks! IiKkEe (talk) 13:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)


 * @IiKkEe Mostly titles and section partitioning; you can see some of what I mean by seeing how much of the lede I have put into separate sections. At the moment would be a bad time to look, but maybe tomorrow. Items of content added or moved would be easier to cooperate on (or indeed structure; we might or might not end up separating say palaeontology from taxonomy etc, but those are not so confusing. In surfing for support material I have wound up confusing myself! JonRichfield (talk) 13:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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Moved comment at RfC
Hi! I just moved your latest !vote at Talk:Fermat%27s Last Theorem from the old Inclusion of Infobox mathematical statement section to the newer RfC section because I see that you found it through WP:FRS. If this is a mistake, please feel free to revert my move of your comment. — MarkH21 (talk) 23:53, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * . No problem! JonRichfield (talk) 05:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

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Precious
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello Gerda, I am still trying to get over the shock! I was so complimented by your message that I was blushing, then I looked up your summary and still can hardly believe my eyes!!! I now am blushing for the opposite reason; we are not even on the same horizon! I knew there were many Wikipedians with impressive records, but you are simply unbelievable. Well, forgive my wittering, but I now am so humbled that I shall have to do something about getting into gear again (haven't done much lately, and have lots of unfinished material to catch up on). At all events thanks fervently from a new admirer for your message and the kind words. All the best, Jon


 * Now it's my turn for blushing, - I even have a corner for it on my talk ;) - The idea is to uplift, not to humble, so that seems not to have worked ;) - Perhaps it helps to understand that this is the award from the cabal of the outcasts, some blocked and banned, and I "one of the most disruptive infobox warriors", - to put it in perspective. I liked your measured comment a lot. May we quote it here, - no 2019 entry yet? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 19 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Gerda, of course you may; even without asking actually, since I had after all published it under my own name on a public page. However, I do not intend to undervalue your courtesy in asking for permission. For future reference, you are fully welcome to quote any such material I had produced, with or without credit, and certainly without hard feelings on my part in any case. All the best, Jon

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Botanical glossaries
I've watched with interest and gratitude all the work you've done on Glossary of botanical terms, which is a really useful resource. I wonder if the separate article Glossary of plant morphology is needed, or whether it would be better merged into Glossary of botanical terms. I thought I would ask you before opening a discussion on the merger. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:28, 13 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Sorry about the delayed reply, but I lost an earlier reply. Your question is well taken, and I have been wondering about it myself. Maybe it is time to take it seriously. Firstly, speaking strictly in terms of glossaries, there not only is no need for overlapping glossaries in overlapping subject disciplines, but to retain them is inefficient (multiple indexes in books, one for common names and one for technical, and one for one language and one for another etc, drive me up the wall. Apart from the time wasted in wondering whether you have the right index, and wondering whether you have missed an index, and trying to deal with duplicate entries... grrr...) The fact is that as the size of the index rises, the search time rises with the log of the size of the index, whereas if you cannot be sure of where to look, you can spend a lot longer discovering where an item is present or whether it is present at all, or present in multiple contexts or not. Secondly, if you have more than one index and they contain duplicate or partly duplicate plant morphology entries, then they not only cause confusion if they have been created by different authors or in different contexts, but they entail major difficulties in maintenance and correction. Far better to put all the definitions for the same word into a single glossary in which all the entries for the same word are listed, together with explanations for the respective contexts. Though tempting however, the project would not be trivial.  For one thing, the glossary of morphology contains entries that amount to explanatory essays in their own right, and in fact do not have any proper place in a glossary.  I support the idea of merging the glossaries, but suggest the following stages:


 * First merge the proper glossary entries from the glossary of morphology into glossary of botanical terms. This will be     the simplest part of the exercise, though not as simple as it may sound; significantly different definitions will need resolution, and conflicting concepts will need be entered into lists of alternative definitions within the glossary entry. A hatnote should be added to the glossary of morphology, and definitions that were moved from the glossary of morphology should be replaced with blue links to the correct entry in the glossary of botany, pending total removal of the glossary of morphology.
 * Next, or possibly in parallel with dealing with the proper glossary terms, the essay items should similarly be merged into the article on plant morphology. This could be quite a major exercise.
 * Finally, as the exercise nears completion, suitable links and redirections should be added to the two surviving articles and the glossary of plant morphology can be removed.


 * I could happily support something of that type, and participate if desired. JonRichfield (talk) 08:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems a very good plan. However, I think you would need to do more than "participate"! Right now, I'm too busy sorting out fern articles to do much else, although I would be happy to assist later. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:45, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll necessarily have to start slowly, for sheer lack of time, but I'll begin with the glossary entry moves first. Wish me luck. JonRichfield (talk) 11:22, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Me4NOH
Hi there. Of ocurse Me4N+OH- is a salt, how else could it be described? Agreed that many hydroxides are not salts, but I dont see why this one wouldnt be? Maybe because it cannot be crystallized readily? I'd be interested in your perspective. Cheers,--Smokefoot (talk) 22:32, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but not so. Crystallisability is not relevant. I refer you to i.a. Salt (chemistry), Acid, Hydroxide, Base (chemistry) etc. All the ammonium hydroxides, substituted or not, are not salts, but are bases. Funnily enough, I struggled quite a bit to find chemistry textbooks that even bothered with the relevant formal definitions of salts; some even omitted any coherent definitions of acids and bases, and some included the alkali or earth-alkali salts of weak acids (such as CaCO3) as bases, but none included any simple hydroxides as salts. Meanwhile, I had to go back to basics and to technical dictionaries that varied greatly in date and quality. All those that had relevant definitions said something along these lines: "Salts: A group of substances that result from the reaction between acids and bases; a compound of a metal or positive radical and a non-metal or negative radical" and: "Base: A compound which yields hydroxyl ions in aqueous solution; or, a compound which reacts with an acid to form water and salt." and "Acid: A chemical compound which yields hydrogen ions when dissolved in water; whose hydrogen can be replaced by metals or basic radicals; or which reacts with bases to form salts and water (neutralization). Antonym: base. (2) An extension of the term includes substances dissolved in media other than water. Cf. base, ammonia system. (3) Any substance which gives up protons {proton donor)... Etc. Now, I chose that source because it was fairly concise and comprehensive and easy for me to do a cut-and-paste, but all the sources that had anything useful said something compatible. No-one suggested that any of the ammonium hydroxides were anything but bases. You could argue that it behaves as a salt in a liquid ammonia medium, but then you wind up able to argue that absolutely any ionic compound is a salt, and you lose the considerable practical value of being able to distinguish between acids and bases. Any chemist reading such a definition would go pop, and reject WP immediately, whereas non-chemists and novice-chemists would be lost. I really cannot see that there is any basis for calling it a salt, much less any reason to do so. As for the practical and convenient definition, the foregoing extract should do very nicely. Are we at cross purposes? JonRichfield (talk) 13:38, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like stuff from kiddie or old-timey chemistry books. Here is IUPAC "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions." Of course NaOH is salt.   --Smokefoot (talk) 13:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

In that cases which IUPAC sources are you citing? And then what ionic compound (not to mention a lot of covalent compounds) are not salts? If they all are salts, then what is the function of the term, and what is a base, an acid or a salt? JonRichfield (talk) 14:02, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * https://goldbook.iupac.org/terms/view/S05447. IUPAC's definition of a salt. Being a salt and a base are not mutually exclusive.  All ionic compounds, maybe excepting zwitterions, are salts.  Soap is a salt.  Most proteins are formally speaking salts.  HCl is water is a salt (anhydrous stuff, not).  The alternative to a salt is something that is not ionic, and there isnt a way to make Me4NOH non-ionic. --Smokefoot (talk) 14:58, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

That definition is counterfunctional as it stands, and furthermore does not formally support your point. It says that a salt is "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions", which is unexceptionable as a description, though not as a definition. It does nor say that "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions" is a salt. Try drawing a Venn diagram. Your attempts to classify chemicals comprehensively do not help one bit; in fact they highlight the difference between a salt and a salt (ionic, largely) bond. A soap is a salt is it? Surprise! They must have been ahead of the curve when I was at school, because they not only told us that, they told us why. Good ol' carboxyl salts; no problem. OTOH if anhydrous HCl is not a salt, then neither is dry NaCl, nor any other inorganic ionically or partially ionically bonded compound, such as many metal halides. As for the claim that there isn't a way to make Me4NOH non-ionic; when is the last time that you demonstrated its ions in liquid nitrogen? And on what basis whatsoever do you except zwitterions??? That makes no sense. Are we to say that N-butylammonium butanoate is a salt (and if not what, hmmm???) but the 8-aminooctanoic zwitterion is not? What a nutty mixed-up idea! If anyone is to say "Look guys, this segregation of ionic bonds into different classes is illogical, let's class them proton donors and acceptors and electron pairs all together and stop talking about acids and bases as being in any way special, then OK, but then to stick to the term "salts" for senses alien to what the word meant before, is purely nonsensical; it creates confusion without improving specificity. JonRichfield (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey calm down. Youre trying to draw on some sort of pseudo folk wisdom mixed in with some exceptional acrobatics and lawyering.  You are congratulating yourself too much. I dont know if a zwitterion is a salt or not.  But Me4NOH is a salt, big time.  Lets see what the gang says.  Maybe we'll both learn. --Smokefoot (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Nice try at proof by assertion, such as about my self-congratulation, when I hadn't even referred to myself. And about whether zwitterion is a salt or not; how could it not be, if the bond is a salt bond? And if you say Me4NOH is a salt big time, without justification, just your say-so, without explaining it and while telling us that anhydrous HCl is not a salt, but hydrated HCl is. And you ducked the question of the liquid N2. Chickening out? Or is that your brand of self-congratulation? And again, I do take myself with a pinch of salt to be sure, so don't let me spill any on your tail, but just go easy on those ad hominems as justification for red herrings please. Now -- that folk wisdom you raked up; which might that be? I was dealing in a complex of simple chemistry, simple logic, and simple semantics, all of them functional at that, no reference to folk unless you can show difference. As for what the errr... gang say, sure, but does that mean that you are seeking sources of more operative points, or a more democratic decision? The former I should hope; democracy in science and technology has a horrible record. JonRichfield (talk) 16:48, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * when I hadn't even referred to myself. "when I was at school ..."
 * And about whether zwitterion is a salt or not; how could it not be, if the bond is a salt bond? I confess that I just dont know.
 * And if you say Me4NOH is a salt big time, without justification, just your say-so, without explaining it. See IUPAC
 * and while telling us that anhydrous HCl is not a salt, but hydrated HCl is. See IUPAC
 * And you ducked the question of the liquid N2. Chickening out? Or is that your brand of self-congratulation? I didnt see how liquid N2 is relevant.
 * I posed the question of Me4NOH to the Chemistry Project.--Smokefoot (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I think this is a classic case of a slightly elastic concept, whose meaning may be clear in context, but is not in isolation. There are two uses of the term "salt", both of which can be sourced:
 * Salt = an ionic compound rather than a covalent compound. This is the meaning that is being used at Salt (chemistry).
 * Acid + Base → Salt + Medium; in water HA + BOH → BA +, in liquid ammonia +  → BA + 2. This is the meaning that  is using.
 * Peter coxhead (talk) 17:59, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you Peter. So whether a material is a salt is somehow related to its parentage or history?  I have not heard the term "covalent compound".  Covalent bond yes, but not covalent compound.  I just have never encountered those ways of thinking, hence my bewilderment that this conversation/argument was even occurring.  I am still scratching my head.  Some archaic concepts being cclung to, or else I am really losing it. The latter is entirely possible.  Cheers, --Smokefoot (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * well, yes, "covalent compound" was just my shorthand way of saying that all the bonds are covalent. In meaning (2), it's not how the compound is formed, it's that it neither increases nor decreases the concentration of (non-free) hydrogen ions in the pure solvent. If we consider liquid ammonia, we have an equilibrium that can be represented as:
 * 2 &#8644; +
 * An acid in this solvent, like, produces extra hydrogen ions. A base in this solvent, like an amide producing , mops up hydrogen ions. A salt (def. 2) does neither. So if we use to represent the amide, it's a base in liquid ammonia, while  is a salt. It may be formed by the reaction:
 * [acid] + [base] →  [salt] + 2
 * but its neutrality with respect to hydrogen ions is the defining characteristic. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Peter, whatever. Please talk to a chemist. --Smokefoot (talk) 22:47, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have a degree in Chemistry. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:44, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Poor smokefoot, tsk tsk. Don't let it bother you that there are real chemists in WP, they really are quite nice when you don't irritate them with bad manners and nonsense. For my part, I don't much mind how much chemical nonsense you talk (no such thing as covalent compounds, my foot!) and I would not be so nasty as to demand logic or taxonomic insights, but it would be nice if you could exercise a bit of common (oops, sorry scratch that) a bit of sense as well. Start by trying to master the concept of subtext. For example, speaking about the time I was at school, I was referring to a time, not to myself, however shocking you might find such a concept. Fore example So whether a material is a salt is somehow related to its parentage or history? when not a word anyone has posted so much as suggested anything of the kind. When you keep throwing red herrings like that it is a an implicit admission of vacuity of substance, and you have produced nothing else yet. and you "confess that I just dont know" how your insistence on the resemblance between an undoubted salt and a zwitterion of essentially identical structure forces the definition in that context? Tsk again. Maybe you should talk to another chemist, given that you don't understand Peter. (In which case it is back to school for you; he practically spelt it out for you. And if you didn't understand the relevance of the liquid N2, then what are you doing in this subject matter? Just wasting our time? We are busy even if you are not. And telling us to "See IUPAC" won't cut it unless you tell us what part you are referring to when your statement makes no sense. Well, as I said, I am busy, and I just happen to know that Peter is too. Come back when you have something of substance and relevance. JonRichfield (talk) 19:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the nice words. Good luck to you.  --Smokefoot (talk) 22:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. Always willing to help. JonRichfield (talk) 08:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Following this from afar, I can't understand the rationale for Me4NOH not being a salt. IAUPC considers ionic compounds salts. Sigma Aldrich specifically calls it a salt. Acta Chimica Slovenica also gives it as an example of a quaternary ammonium salts How it is not a salt? But more importantly, what reliable sources disputes that Me4NOH is a salt? &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * IUPAC generally knows things about chemistry and the IUPAC books are well-regarded as the defining references of terminology. Even if we accept that "acid+base&rarr;salt+medium" is true, it doesn't mean that only products of such reactions are considered salts (and isn't that only in the Bronsted-Lawry acid–base concept)? "Salt" and "base" are overlapping...otherwise what the heck kind of sense does "alkali salt" make? JonRichfield, consider this a formal WP:CIVIL warning (commenting on person not content). DMacks (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I started out by saying I think this is a classic case of a slightly elastic concept, whose meaning may be clear in context, but is not in isolation. Yes, "salt = ionic compound" and "base = absorber of hydrogen ions in a given solvent" overlap. "Salt = product of acid + base reaction" and "base" do not overlap. It's necessary to be clear which concept is in use. (Incidentally, it's "Brønsted–Lowry".) Peter coxhead (talk) 08:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * So the bottom line is that this substance meets the more formal (IUPAC) definition, and also the statement itself can be cited for this specific substance to Aldrich. The correctness of spell-check correction is another elastic/context-dependent concept. Most recent two emails I had were actually about Lawry's salt. DMacks (talk) 10:55, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Following this from afar, I can't understand the rationale for Me4NOH not being a salt. IAUPC considers ionic compounds salts. Sigma Aldrich specifically calls it a salt. Acta Chimica Slovenica also gives it as an example of a quaternary ammonium salts How it is not a salt? But more importantly, what reliable sources disputes that Me4NOH is a salt? &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * IUPAC generally knows things about chemistry and the IUPAC books are well-regarded as the defining references of terminology. Even if we accept that "acid+base&rarr;salt+medium" is true, it doesn't mean that only products of such reactions are considered salts (and isn't that only in the Bronsted-Lawry acid–base concept)? "Salt" and "base" are overlapping...otherwise what the heck kind of sense does "alkali salt" make? JonRichfield, consider this a formal WP:CIVIL warning (commenting on person not content). DMacks (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * First, it is not good practice to mix warnings in with points under discussion; the two should be separated. Please avoid that sort of thing in future. Consider this as my complaint against discrimination. I was not the first to comment on the person (Youre trying to draw on some sort of pseudo folk wisdom mixed in with some exceptional acrobatics and lawyering.  You are congratulating yourself too much. for example, and that was included in a response to a material point) and my first personal remark was on smokefoot's ad hominem, so tell him first about indulging in wikiwarrioring. Till you resolve that I reject the good faith of your warning.


 * Now, secondly, and without considering personalities, dealing with the relevant point at issue, this is a concern about article quality in terms of comprehensibility, context and readership, and encyclopaedic standards, not the wording of the IUPAC quote, nor the expertise of IUPAC, which is another red herring. To begin with, in terms of encyclopaedic quality, most readers are not chemists in any practical sense, and most who have any informal conception of chemistry think of ionic bonds, salts, acids, and bases as meaningful concepts, and irrespective of any generalisation, they do not think of them as a single concept. Many even think of them as distinct, but that is not our concern here. It is fine to discuss the terms or their contexts or applicability or obsolescence in articles on reactions and bonding, but in other contexts one needs to observe the semantics and logic, which are crucial in an encyclopaedia. As I said above at the start of the discussion, about what IUPAC's definition: It says that a salt is "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions", which is unexceptionable as a description, though not as a definition. It does not say that "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions" is a salt. That was true and remains true. Even if one wishes to generalise the concept of ionisation and ionic bonds, however validly, according toBrønsted–Lowry acid–base theory and related principles, the relevant general concept, and hence term, is not salt, nor acid, nor alkali nor base, but ionic bond or compound or molecule according to the context. Otherwise we get into absurdities such as saying that HCl is a salt (instead of ionised or an acid) in solution but not in isolation. That changes the term for a compound to the term for its state. Previously we had salts, acids, and hydroxides etc as useful classes of ionic compounds, now suddenly they are all salts? And how about the zwitterion confusion of smokefoot? Suddenly the identical bond is a different entity if you add a covalent bond in a different part of the molecule? What happens to terms like "salting out"? One could extend that sort of quibble indefinitely. Terminology matters. If one refers to ammonium hydroxides in general as bases or alkalis, that is correct and unconfusing in general, IUPAC or not. If one speaks of their say, halides as salts, that will confuse neither chemists, nor laity, but to speak of their hydroxides as salts causes immediate distraction at best, and commonly confusion as well, which might be excusable if it moves the reader to investigate the matter further, but not when it is irrelevant and likely to cause readers to reject the reliability and quality of the article. This is not a trivial consideration. The fact that some catalogs might lump them together is no argument, because it is a different application and not relevant to Wikipedia. JonRichfield (talk) 11:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't understand "IUPAC's definition...is unexceptionable as a description, though not as a definition." It doesn't matter how exceptional we feel something is. It is, as we all seem to agree, the IUPAC definition. Not "these are examples of salts", but what the term "salt" means (that's what the term "defintion" means...it's a dictionary and we follow WP:V policy to define terms). A chemical can belong to multiple classes because there are multiple independent classification schemes, not a single hierharchy. My editorial position is that we should include multiple descriptors (and link them) so readers can learn about the different natures of chemicals (and the different classes). And we seem to have a cite that supports this specific classification for this specific chemical, so it's not WP:SYNTH to say it, and it doesn't matter whether any of us believe it unless there is a strong ref to contradict it. DMacks (talk) 12:58, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * No one said anything about how exceptional anything is, certainly not I. I refer you to exceptionable and unexceptionable. In the light of this unnecessary misunderstanding, I suggest that you delete this reply of mine and replace your post to which it refers, which is irrelevant as it stands and unedifying and accordingly undesirable if taken as it stands. JonRichfield (talk) 14:53, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

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Precious
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello Gerda, I am still trying to get over the shock! I was so complimented by your message that I was blushing, then I looked up your summary and still can hardly believe my eyes!!! I now am blushing for the opposite reason; we are not even on the same horizon! I knew there were many Wikipedians with impressive records, but you are simply unbelievable. Well, forgive my wittering, but I now am so humbled that I shall have to do something about getting into gear again (haven't done much lately, and have lots of unfinished material to catch up on). At all events thanks fervently from a new admirer for your message and the kind words. All the best, Jon


 * Now it's my turn for blushing, - I even have a corner for it on my talk ;) - The idea is to uplift, not to humble, so that seems not to have worked ;) - Perhaps it helps to understand that this is the award from the cabal of the outcasts, some blocked and banned, and I "one of the most disruptive infobox warriors", - to put it in perspective. I liked your measured comment a lot. May we quote it here, - no 2019 entry yet? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 19 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Hello Gerda, I got your reminder this morning and was shocked and embarrassed to see that I somehow had missed your reply here; I am not sure why, but I am sorry to see that this is apparently too late to be of any use. Please forgive. In case it should be of any use in future, you may take it from me that anything I post in WP I regard as being publicly available, and free to use or to quote fairly, with or without acknowledgement. (By fairly, I mean that it be very clear whether there has been any change to my own wording etc.) I have been very inactive on WP for various reasons lately, even in a private initiative to supplement the illustrations in the Glossary of botanical terms; Ill try to get back to it RSN. Cheers for now, JonRichfield (talk) 06:38, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, I could say the same (shocked and embarassed) about myself but would label simply as forgetful that until today, I did not enter your comment to the project of the outcast, but ;) - You are in good company there. I miss Brian. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

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Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:42, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda, much appreciated. Getting old faster and faster! JonRichfield (talk) 07:48, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

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