User talk:JonRidinger/Archive 5

Akron redux
I watch the Akron article and had noticed the many edits on it and its talk page. I was wondering if it was worth taking the whole dispute and Threeblur's behavior to WP:AN/I. If you think so, I can make the entry there. Sorry, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It is a move over a redirect, so only an admin can do it. I will work on it next. My thought was that by taking this to AN/I there might be community consensus for some sort of action with regards to Threeblur's edits. They are not exactly vandalism, but they certainly are disruptive. It is a bit of a pain to write up for AN/I (with diffs), so I only want to do it if you think it would be worthwhile. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall that StepShep said somewhere that part of why s/he became inactive was because of Threeblur's edits. Do you have a diff for that? Thanks, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You are very welcome - I was waiting to see if anything would happen at AN/I that might change matters. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

AN/I
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

PS Please see the section on
 * I have restored the discussion on User:Threeblur0 at Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents and have added new commentary. --Beirne (talk) 05:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you sure your name is not X96lee15? 206.170.104.63 (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

NRHP nomination forms
With very few exceptions, nomination forms are written by individuals who aren't federal employees, so nomination forms are under copyright. Nyttend (talk) 06:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * But once they are submitted, don't they become property of the Department of the Interior? In any case, the article you mentioned should be erased or rewritten, copyright or not.  --JonRidinger (talk) 06:10, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No, they remain the property of the author; you don't have to give up ownership of intellectual property when you submit it to the NPS. For example, File:Picto-Petro Man Ruin UT NPS.jpg at Commons was taken from an NPS webpage but had to be deleted because it bore a notice of being still copyrighted (which wasn't noticed until after upload) when it was uploaded.  I can't remember the source page; if you want to find it, you'll probably have to ask an admin at Commons for help.  Nyttend (talk) 02:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Very interesting and good to know. I don't like even cut and pasting public domain stuff because it's still plagiarism and poor article writing besides that. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * As for the Roosevelt school page — can you prove that it was published before 1989 and did not fulfill the standard for claiming copyright? If it was published after 1989, or if it was published in a format that fulfilled the copyright criteria, it's almost certainly copyrighted.  I support removal, since the law doesn't require a copyright notice for something to be copyrighted.  Nyttend (talk) 02:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * See Public domain. Nyttend (talk) 03:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Having seen the actual sheet music, it was definitely published well before 1989 and was a generic alma mater that had blank spots to fill in a given school name (see this alma mater or this alma mater for instances which have virtually the same text). --JonRidinger (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to be annoying, but before I'd say that I believe it to be PD, what's the copyright status of the original Mad-Libs-style generic alma mater? Any idea when it was published?  It could be that the original was copyrighted and had some sort of license permitting purchasers to use it as they saw fit, but not allowing anyone else to use it.  That being said, I have a couple of other opinions — (1) miscellaneous clubs really don't belong, and (2) I can only imagine the confusion that might result if someone from Petal decided to go to something from Stuyvesant and ended up hearing their alma mater :-)  Nyttend (talk) 03:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

<---well since I'm already at my limit for edits, I'm in no rush to bring it back. My biggest problem is this editor randomly shows up at times and seems to be more disruptive than anything and won't participate in discussions beyond the edit summaries. I can get a copy of the sheet music from the school to be sure. The tune is a familiar tune (a neighboring high school actually uses the same one for their alma mater with different text), but the text definitely seems generic. Just Googling "Our strong band can ne'er be broken" I got quite a few hits that use variations on the same text. I didn't think it was public domain, but that the copyright status was clear since it is sourced, since "unclear status" was the reason given for its removal. As for the clubs, I just felt like it was giving a bit too much weight to a non-notable club and it really wasn't relevant to describe how the Latin club was a local chapter of the OJCL and of the NJCL, especially in a separate paragraph. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, would you like a copy of the nomination form for the Kent Industrial District? A week or two ago, I noticed that the district was missing from the Ohio Historical Society's district map, so I emailed a notification of this error; in response, an OHS person told me that its omission was intentional (since there are so few properties) and attached a copy of the nomination form as well.  If you want it, simply use EmailUser and I'll reply with the attachment.  I'd simply use Special:EmailUser, but that feature doesn't support attachments.  Nyttend (talk) 00:12, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've emailed you the form; hope it's enlightening. The only listing that I've ever found to be lacking a profile on the OHS website is the Robert Reily House in Wyoming, which seems to have been a duplicate name of another house; see Talk:Twin Oaks (Wyoming, Ohio) if you're curious.  I have to say: I really wish our state's online presence were better.  Most of my NRHP writing in the last few months has been in Pennsylvania, because virtually all of their forms are online: I've gotten four DYKs for Pennsylvania sites, but the last one I got in Ohio (in November) was about a site for which I had to scrounge for sources due to the unavailability of nomination forms.  Nyttend (talk) 03:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks again! I wish the online presence for Ohio were better too.  There's no reason they can't all be online.  It's 2010!  At least I was able to get the hard copies from the Department of the Interior!  Glad Kent Industrial is listed, but still think it could easily be placed on the map; same with the Ohio State Normal School at Kent district.  No reason we need addresses in the 21st century with such tools as Google maps and MapQuest available.  --JonRidinger (talk) 03:39, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I just wonder if they're not online for financial reasons — as you can see at http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/ohpo/nr, they charge 50¢ for a nomination. Some time ago, I asked about this; apparently, if you order one, they mail it to you on a CD.  I'm thinking of emailing and asking if there are many more that have been digitised, and if so, if there are plans to make them available online; after all, 50¢ only barely covers the cost of the CD and the postage, so it's not as if they make tons of money on an order.  Nyttend (talk) 16:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey I just wanted to thank you for citing this discussion when I asked where it was being discussed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.123.65.154 (talk) 05:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You may find the bottom of this page interesting — the Ohio Historical Society is aware that the Benjamin F. Hopkins Stone Building in the Kent cemetery has been destroyed. Nyttend (talk) 19:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice, thanks. I expected to hear of this eventually, since my local newspaper had something about it being nominated by the State Historic Preservation Office, but this is the first that I heard about it being listed.  I wish they'd add something in my county :-)  Nyttend (talk) 16:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note about the Olin House. I know that it's not the only NRHP-listed site to be destroyed recently: last week I got a DYK for the Francis M. Drexel School in Philadelphia that had just been torn down.  Curious, do you know why it was owned by the city of Akron?  And nice to see that you got credit for the image; my only published image (as far as I know) is here, although as I release my images as PD, it's quite possible that they've been used and I just haven't found out.  Nyttend (talk) 19:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice job! I don't expect to be contributing to Britannica anytime soon :-)  I've gotten a few online credits, but they're primarily free online news sites that plainly can't afford commercial pictures.  The only exceptions I can remember have been this page, using this picture, and some pages (I can't remember where, and they aren't findable with Google anymore) that used this picture.  Nyttend (talk) 19:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Talkback
-- &#47; MWOAP &#124; Notify Me &#92; 03:13, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

BYU project request
If you can come offer your thoughts on this discussion, I would appreciate it. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Vegas lines in college football infoboxes
User:Bband11th is at it again changing the representation of the odds in the infoboxes (here: 2009 Little Caesars Pizza Bowl at least). Any help would be appreciated, thanks. — X96lee15 (talk) 03:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to do. He is continuing to change the articles and will not discuss his position nor will he provide edit summaries.  Any suggestions? — X96lee15 (talk) 17:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

stow latin
Even though the 2006 Beacon Journal citation you chose to leave in the SMFHS article states that Stow won 28 years in a row, I strongly feel that multiple sources are necessary to adequately support the extraordinary claim that Stow won 28 yrs in a row. Appropriately citing Stow Latin's win-streak does not conform to any guidelines you have presented. Honestly, how many other teams/organizations can you find that have won something -- anything -- that many years in a row? How many can you find that have won 15 years in a row? The 28 year win-streak fact is itself a bit of an anomoly. It demands greater support through reliable sources-- certainly more than one article from one single publication. See SMFHS talk page. MisterE2123two (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I responded there, but will here as well. I appreciate your attention to detail, but in this case it seems a bit excessive.  All you need is one, MAYBE two sources on that and editors will be satisfied with it as being properly sourced with a reliable source.  The only reasons you'd need to cite ALL of the previous wins would be if there was something notable in each of them and you were citing that individually.  Since you have a reliable source that states the main point-- that Stow won 28 consecutive state titles-- then I'd consider myself lucky and continue expanding and improving the article in other ways.  As I said on the SMFHS article talk page, Junior Classical League is not widely known, so the bigger worry would be that someone would think it's not important enough, not that it isn't sufficiently sourced.  Only very highly controversial or questionable statements need multiple sources.  Very few even need two sources; most are fine with just one source, provided it's reliable. :) --JonRidinger (talk) 23:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I still feel very strongly that one citation is not adequate to support the 28 yr win streak. It 'is extraordinary in that the win-streak lasted 28 years.  I get it that you yourself don't think that some Latin convention is very notable-- what you don't realize is that it's the 28-year-streak that is notable here.  Again, I challenge you to find any organization that has won something that many years in a row.


 * Not saying it isn't impressive or shouldn't be included. I'm just saying it doesn't need 30 sources; it just needs one or two.  You can find a lot of athletic teams that have impressive streaks too.  It's unusual but hardly unheard of.  For instance, Garfield High School in Garrettsville has won something like 96 straight dual bowling matches.  I lived in a small town in New Mexico that had won 77 consecutive high school football games at one time.  Even now, the UConn women's basketball team has won 71 straight games all by double digits.  When I was in school I was involved in Future Problem Solving and we won state titles in various categories all the time while I was there, before, and after.  Impressive, absolutely.  Should it be included in the article?  Of course.  Does it need a huge amount of sources?  Nope.


 * I've never said the 28-wins needs 30 sources-- you're exaggerating. All of those athletic streaks are great, but they aren't the same as winning multiple successive championships.  Garfield's 77 wins is what, maybe 8 or 9 seasons?  UConn's 71 double digit wins is what, maybe 2 or 3 seasons worth?  Stow Latin's state championship streak lasted nearly three decades-- and it was a streak of championships.  Look, I'm not arguing over whether the 28-straight-state-titles should be included, and I know you aren't either.  We agree on included that fact.  We disagree in how to verify that rather unique claim.  Does it need a "huge amount" of sources?  No.  Is 5 or 6 sources a "huge amount" for such an extraordinary claim?  No.  Again, find me any organization/club/team that has won the equivalent of a state title 28 or more years.  MisterE2123two (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, the Junior Classical League has some 50,000 members worldwide. That's hardly "not widely known."  Regardless, Wikipedia should be used to inform.  If all we ever included was information the general readership already knew of, there wouldn't be very many articles worth creating/keeping!  MisterE2123two (talk) 23:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Do "most people" know about Olga Mural Field at Schoonover Stadium, Alaina_Reed_Hall, Julianne Baird or Lorenzo Snow? (you have made contributions to each-- incidentally, all related directly/indirectly to Kent/NEO/Portage co.) MisterE2123two (talk) 00:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure your point here. I'm not saying the fact isn't worth keeping; I was saying other editors might consider it an unimportant fact and that would be a bigger worry than it being labeled as improperly sourced.  If I felt it wasn't important enough I would've removed it long ago.  Just because something is low-importance doesn't mean it doesn't belong here.  And sorry 50,000 members worldwide doesn't constitute well-known. That's actually fairly small.  By comparison, the amount of people who would be familiar with someone like Lorenzo Snow, a leader in early Mormonism who is a native of northeast Ohio, is significantly higher since there are 13,000,000 Mormons in the world and countless more who study its history and its role in US History.  Even then it's not a huge majority of the world or even Wikipedia readers and I'd never say he was well-known to the average reader.  Again, I'm not saying JCL doesn't belong, but the vast majority of people have never heard of Junior Classical League unless they were involved, so winning 28 State Titles won't mean that much.  Wikipedia is meant to inform, but that definitely has its limits dealing with notability and trivia.


 * Okay, say maybe Lorenzo Snow wasn't the best example (even though I doubt all 13,000,000 Mormons in the world know of him, or are especially devoted to Mormon history). But what about the Kent baseball field?  What about the Kent dormitory?  There aren't even 1,000,000 living KSU Alumni, and even if there were, I doubt most have heard of let alone been to either of those facilities.
 * My point earlier was that significance is subjective, whether it's the significance of an article as a whole or if a certain fact within an article deserves more than one or two sources. MisterE2123two (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * And I do find it somewhat troubling that in comparison to athletics you seem to place little or no emphasis on extra- and co-curricular activities (as you yourself seem to have been involved w/ music/theater in the past). MisterE2123two (talk) 00:42, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I am a music teacher and also teach after-school theater classes, so it's not a matter of me not supporting the arts or thinking they're less important or any other non-athletic activity. In the end, though, as an editor I have to think as an editor and not as an arts advocate.  If you're referring to the Roosevelt article, yes it definitely needs expansion for its academics section and some of its other activities. I have been wanting to trim the athletics section down to have less subsections.  Unfortunately, Wikipedia isn't about giving "fair" or equal coverage to all organizations in a school; it's about covering the notable aspects of a school (or any subject).  Athletics, for good or bad, are covered significantly more (reports for most games) in local news and are thus far easier to find sources for in writing articles.  The only time a school club gets attention is when it wins an award or does something like a major community project, so reliable sources are far more difficult to find.  Even then, most school clubs exist in relative anonymity outside the school and few people even know they exist.  It's unfair, but Wikipedia has to go on what has reliable sources, not what seems fair as "fair" is very subjective.  Again, it's unfortunate for people like us who are/were in the lesser known organizations, but that's the way it is.  If sources can be found for specific and significant accomplishments of clubs (like you have done for many Stow clubs), then of course they can and should be included in relevant articles.  On the flip side, not all accomplishments of athletic teams are worthy of inclusion in an article either.  In the Roosevelt article I only mentioned ones that have won state titles or state runner-ups and a significant amount of league titles.  I am aware of significant accomplishments of many Roosevelt clubs, but have been unable to locate reliable sources to include those claims (for instance, the local DECA chapter says it is listed as one of the top 5 in the country.  No reliable source to back that up, so I can't include it beyond its current mention).  --JonRidinger (talk) 02:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it's great that you are a Music teacher, but I can't understand your stubborn support of Wikipedia here. I'm sorry, but isn't Wikipedia what Wikipedians make of it?  At first, I thought that either you hadn't heard of this Latin organization, or that you don't think very much of it, at least when compared to athletics.  Now I think you stance is based on "it's because Wikipedia says so."  Please don't take this the wrong way, but screw Wikipedia guidelines (as they are)!  Wikipedia and Wikipedia guidelines are what Wikipedians make of them.  I seriously doubt you would question adding multiple sources to a claim that "X" High School's basketball/football/track/etc. team won 28 straight state titles.  Okay, so high school athletics are covered more than other kinds of high school activities.  That doesn't mean it's right, and it certainly doesn't justify how Wikipedia determines what should and what should not be included.  MisterE2123two (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Editors over several years and many backgrounds have developed the guidelines and policies; they came after many discussions and building consensus. They hardly came overnight.  Can they change?  Of course, but there are proper channels to change them.  Simply disregarding them because you disagree is the wrong approach and will just end up getting you blocked from editing.  Again, my reasons on JCL have little to do with my personal opinions or understanding of the organization; they mostly rest on notability.  Wikipedia DOES have pretty extensive definitions of what is notable and what isn't and I have found they are pretty fair and logical in my years of editing.  This is not an encylcopedia of anything and everything, nor would that serve much of a purpose for scholarly research and study.  And honestly, even if a team had won 100 straight state titles, I'd still only need ONE source if that one source meets the reliability requirements and clearly supports the statement it references; I wouldn't need to cite and prove each state title individually. (See how I sourced many of the small athletic team sections in the Roosevelt article.  They're sourced, but only one source per fact).  The reason is because if a source is considered reliable (and most news publications and printed books are considered both reliable and third-party) it is assumed they went through and analyzed the records.  Yes sports are covered more, but again, that doesn't mean all sports teams at a school are notable.  Simply being in the newspaper doesn't mean notable, but never being mentioned outside a school newsletter is a big sign that notability is lacking.  If you want to be a contributor and really feel strongly about the policies here, the best thing to do is actually become very familiar with them and go from there in changing them.  My opinions of Wikipedia and working within policies certainly didn't form right away either.  The lesser inclusion and notability of non-athletic organizations is far more a reflection on our culture and how we regard them (which draws more people...a football game or a club meeting or even competition?) and Wikipedia merely mirrors the culture.  --JonRidinger (talk) 07:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

talk pages
I always use talk pages. Nothing new. MisterE2123two (talk) 23:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * When you initially reverted my edits, you did not use the talk page; you used it the second time after reverting. I wrote my initial request while you were in the process of writing on the talk page following your second revert. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that every edit revert required a discussion on the talk page. MisterE2123two (talk) 06:29, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't, but when you claim to "always use the talk pages" it does. "Always" doesn't translate into "most of the time".  On top of that, when one editor does go to the trouble and courtesy of using the talk page to explain removals, it's always a good idea to respond there when making reverts the first time.  --JonRidinger (talk) 06:53, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Stephens City, Virginia
Hello....I am aware you work on Ohio towns, but I have a Virginia town article that needs some help. I was wondering if I could get some help digging up some references on the Demographics of Stephens City, Virginia. I have looked into the census information and it isn't lining up with what is already there (before I started editing the page). I am unsure what to do. I am working to get the article to Good Article status (and one day Featured) and that is one of the sections that needs extensive referencing. If you or someone you know in WP:CITIES could take a look and dig them up, I would be most greatful. Thanks... NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 04:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The Census Bureau website is pretty much your best bet unless the town itself has some additional demographic info on their website. Most informational websites that would have demographic info simply use what the Census Bureau already has.  If the article doesn't match what the chart says, it may be a case of the article showing numbers from 2000 while the chart at the website shows the 2008 estimate.  Another possibility is of course just shoddy editing or plain vandalism of the numbers over time.  Your best best is sticking with the Census Bureau and seeing if any additional reliable numbers can be found.  Smaller cities and towns, though, tend to not have much additional info available.  The WP:CITIES guidelines also mention writing about any unusal numbers that are notably different from other averages like of the surrounding county, state, or area, or how it compares with nearby towns (like if it has a significantly higher percentage of young people or a high ratio of men to women or something).  The basic idea is to give readers an idea about who lives in the city.
 * In glancing at the article, another suggestion I have is reducing the number of subheadings. 3-5 sentences is pretty much the minimum for a stand-alone paragraph and subheadings typically contain more than one paragraph, but at least one solid paragraph.  --JonRidinger (talk) 21:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help :) I will go back to the Census information and continue editing.  I had begun and started noticing that problems I was running into, then stopped.  I will keep going.  Demographics is one of the area that needs alot of references.  Again...Thanks! -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 22:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how much it needs really. The basic demographic info is all in the Census report.  What would need additional citations are any type of conclusions an editor makes based on census results (like WHY a number appears as it does).  For simply reporting the data in prose, the section only needs the one source.  --JonRidinger (talk) 00:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know why either, but when I originally brought the article to WP:GAN, the person who reviewed it said Demographics needed extensive references. So, to get the page up to GA status (and one day FA status) I can work on it, no worries.  Thanks... NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 02:42, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that was probably because the section wasn't ever developed beyond the template that created the original demographics section from the 2000 census. The list of unreferenced items is general; not to say that demographics needs a boatload more citations, particularly if the citation isn't reliable (like something from city-data.com for instance).  On glancing at the article, another huge problem is the history section.  It's WAAAAAAAY too long and includes a lot of tangential information about the different settlers.  All that's needed is information about the development of the town itself, not extensive background information for settlers.  The history section shouldn't be much longer than 3 paragraphs and if it is, a "History of..." page should be started.  There are a host of other problems as well, mostly dealing with excessive detail (the Veterans list?  Not needed) or detail that should be in a different article (like much of the history on the schools). As much as I hate to say it, this article is a looooong way from being GA. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * As you should've seen, I had to remove the entire history section as it was a copyright violation. It needs to be written from scratch using reliable sources, which can include the source that was cut-and-pasted.  It just needs to be in our own words.  Sucks to lose that much of an article, but those are rules and policies we have to follow not only for legal purposes but for good article writing.  --JonRidinger (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Darn :( Just a little information on the history section.  It was donated as/is by the Newtown History Center in Stephens City via an OTRS ticket (number: 2007110410011312).  The entire section was written by the director/curator of the museum.  Not to say it can't be moved, just giving you a little behind-the-scenes on why the section is so long.


 * The veterans sections, I thought was a nice little touch, especially with two people serving in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. I had seen a couple towns (not sure which now) that used a Veterans section and I though it was neat.  I thought about adding more to it.  Again, not to say it can't be removed, but why it is there.


 * The excessive detail...well, you can blame that one on me :) I have Aspergers and go into detail on alot of things, both in person and online.  So, that is why the page is so huge.  I wanted it to have as much information to keep the reader as long as possible.  I used alot of the templates from WP:CITIES and got alot of information from local sources.  The pictures you see, I took them all myself at various times around town.  To give the viewer a look at life around a small Virginia town.  Not to say that some of them couldn't be moved or removed, but just why they are there.


 * I wanted to have the page not at the length of say Frost, West Virginia, but at say Washington, DC. I know that is stretching a little, due to the small town that Stephens City is, but I didn't want it to be some blurb that people got bored with in about half a heartbeat.  Again, you can blame that on my Aspergers :).


 * So, I guess my question is, where do I start? I would like to keep the history together and I am not against moving it to another page.  I would have to check with an OTRS editor to make sure I can first and if I can, I would move it and give the 3 paragraph blurb. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 03:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

<-Look at the history section of Hillsboro, Oregon. Hillsboro is a smaller city (though still much larger than Stephens City) and it has a nice brief history. Granted, as an amatuer historian I like more details, but in this article you want to highlight the main points: usually the early history and settlement (who and why), major causes for town growth and significant events that helped shaped the town's identity, and some of more recent events that continue to define the town today. The danger is going off on tangeants. The link that was copied into the article is a great start and can form the basis for a lot of the information, but the more additional sources you can find, the better. It not only makes it more interesting but likely gives it more accuracy and balance since it will be drawing from multiple sources. I'd start a section in your sandbox and develop something there. Other editors can help you develop it there and then it can be added back to the article when it's done. An article I edit a lot needs its history reduced so I'm first trying to develop a "History of..." article and making sure all the details have direct relevance to the subject, then I will reduce what is currently in the main article. As for the old history section, there really isn't much need to keep it since it can be found verbatim on the website it came from. Your sandbox is an option, but I'd advise against having copyrighted material even there. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

OTRS

 * Talkback, part II. -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 04:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Talkback, line 3? -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 04:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Talkback, take 4...ACTION! -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 05:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Frederick County Public Schools
You came up with the idea of updating the Frederick County Public Schools page and having little blurb histories and pictures...and then links to the main article about the school. Well, I did some of the bare bones work of how the page would look....and I have ALOT of trips into the northern parts of the county and to the archives department at the library ahead of me.

I need a better history for the school system, but I could probably get that from the school system itself, but this if the bare bones look of the page. With the one elementary school and what I have for the Old Stephens City School. I didn't know there were that many defunct schools in this area. It ain't pretty. A couple, I haven't the slightest clue where they would be. Look what you have started! :) LOL! Seriously though, I will need alot of trips into library archives for some of these and some trips to the county building too for any semblance of a history about some of these defunct schools.  Some others will be a little easier.

I would like to get a better look to the history of the entire school system. When it was formed, how it was started, who started it, where some of the historic (1700s, 1800s) schools are, etc. But for right now, this is good.

If you would like to work on some of this or the Stephens City page (I am working on this as my side project to Stephens City) go right ahead. Take Care... NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 05:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to hear. I wouldn't spend too much time going into the greater details of the closed schools...don't get me wrong, a solid history is great, but like with any history, too many details aren't needed for an encylcopedic article of something with low notability.  One option I have for defunct schools is a general paragraph or chart showing the buildings and what they were used for, years of operation, and a photo (similar to what many of the National Register of Historic Places list articles use).  Best thing would be a very general history of how the division formed (especially if it was from consolidation) and any "pre history" like you mentioned with early education in the county.  After that, focus on any events like the opening of new schools and why they were opened if reasons were given in a published history (like the opening of Sherando High School to relieve crowding) and any designations the division has receieved.  Most town histories have a section on the schools, so general histories with reliable sources shouldn't be hard to find.  The main issue for a school district article is focusing more on the "now" versus the history.  And hey, I am HAPPY to "start" improvements to articles.  No reason school district articles should just be lists of the schools!  My main foray into school districts has been my own, Kent City School District which I haven't edited for some time.  It has a lot of issues, the history section itself being one of them!  --JonRidinger (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)  Oh, P.S. Thanks for the award and I have returned from my vacation.
 * Poor man's talk back. Please see the User talk:Neutralhomer section on my talk page. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 13:06, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Stephens City (The Sequel)
Hey Jon, I was wondering if you are busy with other projects tomorrow, if you could finish up on the Stephens City page. I mentioned it to Parkwells, but I think he is busy or offline. I think it is pretty close to ready to be sent back to GAR, but want to wait until the history section is fully finished. Let me know if we can work on this tomorrow (or even tonight if you aren't tired) and I will ship it off to GAR and see what they think of it and get back with you (or Parkwells) if more is needed or not. Thanks again for your help. Take Care.... NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 23:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, "finishing up" isn't quite that simple. The history section is still far too long and there are a number of other issues.  From my standpoint, the article is more strong B-class than a few small edits from GA.  It has a lot of good information but still has some organizational and content problems.  The section on the Old Stephens City School still isn't really appropriate since the building is not notable (even if it were, an entire section like that wouldn't be appropriate).  Also, look for subheadings that only have 1 or two sentences in them.  Paragraphs should have at least 3-5 sentences, so subheadings should at least be paragraph size.  A lot of sections are only one line long, so should be combined with larger or other small sections.  There are also some wordings that are more promotional than encyclopedic, like having "parks to enjoy" for instance.  Lastly, try to eliminate bulleted lists in the article as much as possible.  Lists and are generally discouraged in developed articles; instead writing it out in prose is preferred, though this is not always possible.  I know you really want to get this to GA status as quickly as possible, but it takes time.  As much as I hate to deflate enthusiasm, let's be realistic; it's closer than it was before we started and it's come a long way, but it's not right on the cusp of GA as it stands now; it still has a ways to go.  I would recommend requesting a new peer review or article assessment from WP:CITIES and going from there.  I will try to do some of the cleanup aspects when I am able. :) --JonRidinger (talk) 02:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The bulleted sections were Park's idea. He thought it was a little more organized than written out in prose.  I can switch it back to prose if that is what gets it to GA.


 * The Stephens City School can be removed as it is going into the Frederick County Public Schools article and we can just Main Article link to it (when it is finished).


 * On the Organizational side, I used Featured Article Minneapolis as my main example for setting up the "flow" of the page. If that is off, please feel free to tinker.


 * The history section is still subheadered off as it is "in progress" as Park left it. It was 5 sections, now 3....so there is progress. :)  I think he was going to knock it down to a full "History" section, no subheaders....I think.


 * The "parks to enjoy" sentence...well, that is mine :) I wrote that and was trying to make it sound "inviting" while encyclopedic.  I can remove that sentence and tinker with it so it sounds better.


 * I really thought we were close. Kinda bummed, but as long as I know the path to GA and what needs to be done, I can work on it.


 * I took this page previously to WP:CITIES and never got any responses. Their talk page seems to be a less-watched page.  Would an RFC be another, more visible, way to get comments or is that reserved for users' behavior only?


 * Sorry for the broken sentences, wanted to address everything. I will work on the "Parks" section now and see if I can't fix the "flow" of the page too.  Take Care...<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 02:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't get too bummed; it's not like GA status is a million miles away, but just keep things realistic. We'll get there; just take it one step at a time.  It's better to be thorough than to rush it through only to have it fail.  For peer assessments try WikiProject Cities/Assessment or you can go to WP:PR for a general review without a "grade".
 * Subheadings aren't bad, don't get me wrong. Too many can be though, especially when they are a heading for just one or two lines of info.  The same is true with bulleted lists.  They aren't bad, but as an article matures, many times they can be worked into prose; sometimes they can't (like the Notable natives section for instance).
 * The history section is going to take some time as it's a LOT of information that needs to be summarized and evaluated. Park got it off to a good start, but it still needs a lot more.  That's probably going to be our biggest holdup on GA.  --JonRidinger (talk) 02:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I slimmed down "Education" and moved the "Old Stephens City School" section to my sandbox. I left the picture of the Old Stephens City School, as it is "education-y" looking.


 * I put the bulleted sections back into prose. They are at the bottom of "Demographics" and "Religion".  In case you are wondering, I got the "Religion" section idea from the Minneapolis page and found some really neat information that I used for it. :)


 * I squished "Culture" into one section and took out the subheaders. Same with "Government".  I added some to Government, so let me know what you think.  There only thing that has a subheader is "Roadways and Railways" and of course "History".  "Roadways and Railways" could be squished into one section, but I am not quite sure how.  Perhaps you could take a look at that.


 * Let me know what you think of the already made additions and revisions and give me your thoughts and I will see if Park is online to help as well. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 03:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See here for the Peer Review. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 03:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

<I will have a look in the morning at them more in depth. I did see many of the changes and they are on the right track. "Roadways and Railways" could be turned into "Infrastructure" or "Transportation", but if you keep the Roadways one, "Railways" would be lower-case even on the title, so it would be "Roadways and railways". More in the morning! --JonRidinger (talk) 04:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I took a look at Minneapolis and they have their "Roads" section down as "Transportation", so that is what I switched it to. Look forward to seeing what you come up with tomorrow and hopefully Park will be back in action as well.  Take Care...<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 05:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My only caution in looking at the Minneapolis article is that it's for a much larger city. Just remember that when applying certain aspects of that article or any featured article to this one.  That article having a Transportation section instead of "Infastructure" is more because it has significant info to make transportation and healthcare and utilities their own sections.  Most city articles, especially for very small towns, just need a basic "Infastructure" section that includes major roads, rail, healthcare, utilities, etc.  Here it's not so big a deal, but for most city articles, I recommend following the guidelines at WP:USCITY in terms of organization over featured articles.  As alterations are needed they can be made.  Not sure about the rail...I haven't seen many articles where rail outside of commuter rail is mentioned.  Hillsboro, Oregon has one line about freight service in the Infastructure: Transportation section.  I would say unless a freight line has stops (or used to) in a city, it probably shouldn't be mentioned if it just passes through.  --JonRidinger (talk) 12:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * First off, just wanted to let you know that I am officially unblocked, so we can get back to work. You can see the reasoning on my talk page (bottom section).


 * On to your above post :) - I was just basing the organization of the page on the Minneapolis page and not the information in it. I was just look at how other pages (that one being a featured article, so it felt like a good example) were organized.


 * I am not sure if the rail line just passes by Stephens City or it makes a stop here. I can't completely answer that one.  I know the trains run up and down the line day in and day out (mostly at night around 3:30am).  There is a natural gas company right on the tracks, but whether the CSX trains stop to get anything from them, I am not sure.  Now, whether the trains stopped in Stephens City, I would have to check with the Newtown History Center on that one.  I wouldn't see why the trains wouldn't have stopped, but there isn't an actual station in Stephens City (or if there was, it was torn down).  You can see one side of the line on the picture of the Lime Kiln on the Stephens City page.  I can upload the other side that shows the natural gas company if you like.


 * I would switch the "Transportation" section to "Infastructure", but there isn't any healthcare or utilities that are based in Stephens City. All those come from Winchester or Frederick County, though there is a VA satellite clinic just outside Stephens City proper, which is connected to the Martinsburg, West Virginia VA Hospital, but it is more like a doctor's office than anything and could be considered not notable.  If you think it is, I can add it.  Mostly we just have US Route 11, Virginia State Route 277 and of course Interstate 81 and the aforementioned CSX line, along with MANY county routes that are too numerous to name.


 * If you have anymore ideas, please feel free to edit them on the page or let me know :) Take Care....<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 00:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

April 2010 USRD newsletter

 * — JCbot (talk) 19:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Stephens City/3RR
Then maybe you can be the "tie-breaker" of sorts. How should the pronunciation be? My version or his? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 17:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying to put together the IPA, but the page has been locked to only admins (which is a knee-jerk reaction IMO). It should read /stivənz/ or /stivənz sɪti/ in IPA. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll happily unblock the page if NH agrees to stop his pointy blanking of the article. (Agreed?) IMO, while the IPA is fine (tho you need a length mark for the first /i/), it's relatively inaccessible to many US-educated readers, whereas the pronunciation itself is so obvious I fail to see why we shouldn't simply use the "pronounced like X" formula. — kwami (talk) 17:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am fine with your version Jon. I have tried and tired out my discussions with Kwamikagami and after the clearly against-policy blocking of the page (past 3RR) and the incorrect calling of my edits as vandalism, I can only discuss Kwamikagami's edits on ANI now as I have been banned from his talk page by request. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I think in this case, IPA is the best for those who may not be familiar with what are familiar English pronunciations to us, however few they may be. The average English reader probably won't use any pronunciation guide, even the "Steven's or "Stevens".  In all honesty, this is one of those points that isn't that big of a deal in the bigger scope of the article.  And yes, I did forget the emphasis for the syllable, so it would read /'sti.vənz/ or /'stiv.ənz 'sɪt.i/. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The page has been unblocked, so I will let you use the best judgement on the pronunciation. My opinion is that having it as "Stevens" is very confusing and I would perfer, since it isn't as you say in the bigger scope of the article, just doing away with it and not having the headache.  But again, I am leaving it in your best judgement. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Deor seems to have changed the pronunciation to "ˈstiːvənz" in the pron-en template (which I think is a good happy medium for all), so I think we can mark this as resolved. Sometimes Wikipedia gets a little testy and I apologize. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

<---That's actually correct (putting the v on the 2nd syllable) after looking it up, so I think we have a winner! The real key is just being sure the "ph" is pronounced like a "v". I think what happened is like what another editor said at ANI that you both were "talking past each other". What you were using initially was an English pronunciation guide (like using ē, for the e in Stephens, when IPA uses /i/) within an IPA template (which is what he was trying to correct) and he was trying to just use a common pronunciation guide, which you didn't like because it misrepresented the town's name using an apostrophe. Glad it is all resolved. --JonRidinger (talk) 19:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I hate arguing, but that one just got a little heated. All's well that ends well. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 19:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Virginia State Map on Stephens City, Virginia‎
Just wanted to let you know what I let User:Doncram‎ know. I am actively working on getting a joint Frederick County/Virginia State map like one here made for the Stephens City page. This will give a direct idea of where the town is in just one image. Due to a ongoing discussion of maps and such, it is very slow going and I am looking for an editor who will just make the one map, not ones for all the towns in the county. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 06:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's one option. The image is actually 2 images put together, so it's really not much different than what you already have (county and state maps), it's just arranged differently and in a single file instead of 2.  It would actually be similar to what it looks like now just because Virginia is a much wider state than it is long, unlike California, so to fit best, the state map would probably need to be under the highlighted county map as opposed to next to it.  Another option is the pushpin map which a lot of articles use as well, which places a "pushpin" over the coordinates on a state map.  I used that on Kent, Ohio right below the highlighted county map (a map I put together for every city, village, and township in the county).  --JonRidinger (talk) 11:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That works too. If you could do that (I am not great with image skills...MS Paint anyone?), if you would please, I would appreciate it. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 14:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Stephens City Review
Hey There, got the big Peer Review back on the Stephens City page. Looks like the page needs a tad bit more work, but it is in good shape so far. All the information by the reviewer is at the link here. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 03:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks...I just finished reading it right before you posted. :) Some great suggestions and pointers, many that I hadn't noticed or thought about previously.  Was nice to see some of my suggestions, like in reference to the History section, aren't mine alone! :).  --JonRidinger (talk) 04:01, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I made some comments and have already changed some of the edits as suggested. I am using the  marks to show what is done, but don't feel like you can't double or triple check my work after it is checked. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 04:11, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Stephens City (Part Idaknow)
I am beginning to fear that Parkwells has abandoned his work on the Stephens City article. He said he was on vacation, but has been working on pages (for hours at a time) for days now. It kinda disappoints me that I may have to go look for someone to continue work on the page. What do you think I should do? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 21:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't assume he's "abandoned" the work; if he's anything like me or any other Wikipedia editor, he probably has outside life to worry about on top of other interests in editing and the Stephens City article is not a major concern at this point. It's not uncommon for interest in a particular article to go through "hot" and "cold" phases and that can be influenced by a lot of different things.  This seems to be one of your primary editing interests, so my best advice is keep learning as an editor and writer so you don't have to worry about what other editors do or don't do.  I doubt Parkwells has the high level of interest in the Stephens City article that you do, so the motivation you have isn't likely present on his end. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:45, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * True....my motivation is to get this finished, so the GAR can work out what needs to be done. We have a good start with the Peer Review (and I worked on some of that), but couldn't work on the history part (I am leaving that to him).  I just feel that is our main stumbling block right now and I don't have the writing skills to edit the history section alone (hence why I came to you and Park in the first place).  I guess I am kinda "antsy" and not sure what to do in the meantime.


 * A side question, how did you create this map? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 05:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, one suggestion is find someone, perhaps not a Wikipedia editor, who does have writing skills and see if they can either help you or write their own. The key is summarizing.  I will try to help when I can and can continue the history I started a few weeks ago.
 * As for the picture, I had the original Census Map (the map of Frederick County, Virginia is also a Census Map) and then used Photoshop to basically make a new map on top of it with slightly thicker lines and no labels. Then I colored each township and city separately.  The File:Portage County Kent.png map was one I tweaked today to make it straight and eliminate the excess white around the edges and improve the little compass and scale at the bottom.  The others I did are at User:JonRidinger/Images.  I will probably make the improvements to all the Portage County maps eventually, though I must say having a lot of straight borders in this county makes the map-making somewhat easier!!  --JonRidinger (talk) 06:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Ruhrfisch made the map on the Frederick County page and the one for Stephens City. Frederick County is definitely not a straight bordered county (except at the top) :) and would be very difficult to make.  I would like something like you have, but for all the counties in Frederick County.  Problem is, my image skills are minimal at best (MS Paint is my friend) and I don't have any access to Photoshop.  Plus, just with the shape of the county, it would be a long process making a map for the county.  Oh well, guess I will stick with what I got. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 06:11, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ruhrfisch probably took the original Census map and colored in the different cities, which is another option. I can try some stuff too if you want a non-labeled version like what I did for Portage County.  --JonRidinger (talk) 06:14, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Non-labeled is exactly what I am looking for and I would only need one for Stephens City, unless you want to go the extra mile and make them for the whole county which isn't necessary. You will definitely get a barnstar if you can make one for Stephens City or the whole county. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 06:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

< See how this works for you: File:Frederick Stephens City.png. I also made a blank one, but haven't uploaded it. --JonRidinger (talk) 07:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it, but those border lines for the districts inside the county bother me. Is there anyway to do away with those or are we stuck with them?  Good work, by the way :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 07:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you elaborate? Not totally sure what you mean.  Would you rather have a map that shows only the Stephens City borders? --JonRidinger (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that would be nice. Cause right now it still shows the district lines that was associated with the old map.  If you could just remove those (so it looks something like your Kent, Ohio map, it would be spot on. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 21:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm not as familiar with the Magisterial Districts in Virginia. Are they just for the Census and serve no other purpose in government?  The boundaries shown on my maps of Portage County are for all the cities, villages, and townships, all of which have some sort of government function in Ohio.  Would you like me to removed the Magisterial District boundaries but keep the incorporated town boundaries?  I could also make the district boundaries lighter and keep the incorporated boundaries (Stephens City and Middletown) black.  --JonRidinger (talk) 03:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they show no other purpose then to show who is in what district. Now the big "circle-like" shape in the middle, that is Winchester, an Independent City, so that can stay.  The other towns, Stephens City and Middletown, can also stay (as in their borders).  Just the Magisterial Districts should go as they may be confusing. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 03:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

<I uploaded a new version without any interior boundaries except for Stephens City and Middletown. Since I just uploaded a new version, it already updated it on the main article. Hope this is what you wanted! --JonRidinger (talk) 22:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Perfect! Now if we could just figure out the borders for the other towns, we might have something, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.  Excellent work! :)  As promised....


 * Thanks...I'm guessing the other towns in Frederick County won't have borders unless they happen to be Census Designated Places (the Census map didn't show any since they use the magistrate districts). Middletown and Stephens City are the only incorporated entities in the county and I didn't see any other government organization (like here in Ohio we have townships, which aren't incorporated but have their own boundaries and government), so the other locations will probably just have a dot for where they are located. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah and that would be taken from Google Maps and they might be a little off from where the town actually is. I think you are right though, only Winchester, Stephens City and Middletown have borders.  Just kinda odd that the census wouldn't have a better map for people to go by.  Oh well, it is good enough.  If people want a Kernstown, Virginia or Canterburg, Virginia (both in Frederick County) are, then you could (if you feel up to it of course) add them, but I don't see a great out-pouring for their additions :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 23:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The census maps are just to show what borders are used to measure the different aspects of the census: national, state, county, and local (cities, towns, villages, CDPs, districts, etc.) boundaries. A lot of unincorprated towns aren't included because they aren't used as measurements or are so minor even most locals don't even know about them.  Like I said, if a map was wanted for the other minor towns in the county, I would just place a red dot in the appropriate location on the county map.  A better map of the county that is labeled could also be made but it too would use a dot for the appropriate location of an unicorporated entity.  --JonRidinger (talk) 23:40, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, that works :) I didn't know the inter workings of the census map department, so I just learned something :)


 * Not sure if you are a long-time Late Show with David Letterman fan, but on Fridays they had the "Late Show Mailbag" and your edit summary "maps maps maps" made me think of their intro/outro tune to that segment. "Letters, we get letters, we gets stacks and stacks of letters....LETTTTERS!".  Not sure why, but it did.  Now if only we can get a maps song.  We will have to work on that. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 00:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I just couldn't think of a good edit summary! But that works too :).  Speaking of maps, here are all the "Place" maps for the state of Virginia.  Basically, these are cities, towns, and Census Designated Places.  There are also county maps here.  These are probably the most detailed maps in terms of actual and up-to-date boundaries, plus being works of the Census Bureau, they are Public Domain.  --JonRidinger (talk) 00:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I looked at the second link you posted and those are some very detailed maps. Even shows the parking lots in my neighborhood.  Nice.  Sadly, though, it doesn't show the location of the unincorporated towns for easier addition.  Oh well.  Like I said before, if people want them added (and you feel up to it of course) they can be, but I don't see anyone doing that anytime soon to be honest. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 01:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Maps Break
I just made a realization. In 2000, the town borders of Stephens City were smaller. This was changed three times in 2005, 2006 and again in 2007. When the new maps come out in December 2010 (as they do with all the Census information), the map will have to be changed....again...to reflect the new borders of the town. :(  I just thought of that when looking at the map.  Well, at least you got about 7 months to plan for it. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 03:01, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That won't be much of a problem...I could probably do it now. The detailed map of Stephens City on there is from 2010 and they are updated every year.  Also, yeah, the unincorporated towns won't be on there because, like I said, the maps are to show the areas the Census uses to measure data, so small unincorporated towns that serve no governmental function won't be there.  Google Maps and other traditional maps are needed for that.  Even here we have several "towns" that have no actual borders and no governmental function. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you wanted, not saying you have to, you could update the map for 2010, but it isn't a big "have to" like those district lines. It can wait til December and only you and I would honestly know about it. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 03:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I already did it. Middletown had a slight change too.  The boundaries won't change much when the new Census Data comes out as that will be mostly data.  The boundary info is updated I'm pretty sure every year. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Dude, you didn't have to, but Thank You for doing that :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 05:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Template
My apologizes for the many subheaders, just don't want things to get confusing. On the Geographic location template, does that go by map north or north standing in the town? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 05:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't mind the subheadings. I don't really use the Geographic location template, so I honestly don't know the specifics.  I always have seen it used with what actually borders the city/town, so for Stephens City, it is only phyisically bordered by the county.  For direction, my understanding is that it's based on if you were looking at a map.  But wouldn't that be the same if you were standing in town?  North is north on the ground or on a map.  --JonRidinger (talk) 05:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, on Google Maps, north is north. But in Stephens City, U.S. Route 11 North is actually northeast.  I did that template by Google Maps.  Just wanted to check. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 06:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah don't rely on the signed routes for exact directions, rely on actual N, S, E, W as it appears on a map...US 11 goes in a northerly direction, but remember near Wytheville, I-81 and US 11 are going south on the same road I-77 and US 52 are going north (and vice versa...known as wrong-way concurrency), though in reality they're moving more east-west than north-south at that point. :) --JonRidinger (talk) 12:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Cleveland
If you wish to remove the chart, delete only the code that produces it. The other part of my edit was to improve the precision of the data, and to add precip/snow days as well as record temps. 华钢琴49 (TALK) 19:41, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I apologize for reverting the other changes, but at the same time, I would highly recommend not adding charts in sections that already have them. I noticed you did the same thing at San Francisco and it was removed.  One chart is sufficient.  --JonRidinger (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * then I assume that they are fine one sub-articles, i.e. Geography of _ or Climate of _ ? 华钢琴49 (TALK) 21:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean here. Sub articles are only needed when a section gets too large with information (not graphics) in a particular article.  In the Cleveland article case, neither the Climate nor Geography sections are too long for the overall article. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * the 'they' that I was referring to is the collective set of climate charts (Template Climate Chart) that serves to produce an alternative graphical representation of the data presented in the template Infobox Weather. But in any case, when there was an existant Geography or Climate subarticle, I added the Template Climate Chart there instead of on the main page. Sorry for the ambiguity --- 华钢琴49 (TALK) 14:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)