User talk:Jonchache

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December 2022
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to American Airlines Flight 191‎, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Please look at the link that user:Ahunt left you, MOS:GNL. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 19:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Man-hour is a noun, and does not fall under direct GNL guidelines. per:
 * "The Manual of Style section on gender-neutral language states, "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." Situations this does not apply to include:
 * Direct quotations (e.g. "All men are created equal" should not be altered to "All people are created equal")
 * The titles of works (e.g. A Man on the Moon should not be altered to A Human Being on the Moon)
 * Proper names of things (e.g. Craftsmen Industries should not be altered to Artisan Industries)
 * Cases where all referents are of one gender (e.g. when talking about an all-female school it is unnecessary to alter "If any student broke that rule, she was severely punished" to "Any student who broke the rule was severely punished")
 * When the subject prefers a gendered term. This includes a woman preferring a masculine term, for example: "From 1998 to 2000, she [Esther Dyson] was the founding chairman [not chairwoman or chairperson] of ICANN, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers."." Jonchache (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Use gender-neutral language – avoiding the generic he and generic she, for example – if this can be done with clarity and precision. We can say person-hour instead of man-hour and have the same clarity and precision. Also, Examples of non-neutral language that can often be easily avoided are: Man to stand for persons in general regardless of gender, either as a separate item (man's greatest discoveries), a prefix (mankind, manmade), or a suffix (businessman, fireman). Policy is perfectly clear here. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 20:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Man-hour is a noun, it means "an hour regarded in terms of the amount of work that can be done by one person within this period." the noun is gender neutral. WP:GNL is perfectly clear here. Jonchache (talk) 20:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Did you have a look at the Man-hour page? A man-hour (sometimes referred to as person-hour) is the amount of work performed by the average worker in one hour. There's no reason to needlessly retain the gendered language. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 20:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Man-hour is the noun. until it changes to person-hour, man-hour is still the more proper noun and stands as-is. Needlessly changing it to person-hour is simply political, something that is not tolerated. This is covered in NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content Man-hour stands untill the definition changes names, please leave politics out of Wiki. Jonchache (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There are no politics (or at least there weren't until you brought them up). You'll note that three editors undid your change, all of whom have quite a bit more Wikipedia experience than you do. Man-hour = person-hour, Wikipedia prefers gender-neutral terminology except in very specific cases (of which this is not one), thus person-hour is correct. You're welcome to ask on the article talkpage for more editor input, but as your change has already been undone multiple times by different people, I don't see how that will change things. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 20:33, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Person-hour is not a word, or term, thus it has no place in this article. Also: it is not the amount of editors that matter, its the quality of the edits. I saw an edit that needed to be done, so I signed up to be able to edit. Of course I would be met with distaste, I'm not offended, just like anyone who reads man-hour, because it is a proper noun. I wouldn't dispute the change if it was as an example: The men working on the aircraft saved 250 man-hours to: The mechanics working on the aircraft saved 250 man-hours. Because that is gender neutral language. Man-hour is a noun, and until it officially becomes person-hour, I will agree to disagree, but will continue to make this edit. Jonchache (talk) 20:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at American Airlines Flight 191. ''As an observer, you are quite clearly ignoring the ramification of edit-warring, so let's make this official. Last chance to stop.'' Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I made a legitimate edit. The other users are warring. person-hour is not a noun, or a term, its simply a play at being political. Jonchache (talk) 20:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, impersonating an administrator, is probably not a good idea. Jonchache (talk) 21:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * impersonating an administrator – that's really quite an accusation. Can you please explain it? Thanks DBaK (talk) 22:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC) (not an administrator)


 * Person-hours (PH) has been the industry standard term within the aerospace industry since at least the 1980s when accounting for the number of hours allocated or actually expended on aircraft maintenance tasks. The term "man hours" has been considered obsolete in aerospace for at least 40 years, so this is not new and not at all anything political. If anything Wikipedia has been slow to catch-up on this sort of industry use of terminology. - Ahunt (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Source? Because I'm only finding articles with "man-hour" which still, makes this entire argument simply political. "Man-hour' still falls within the guidelines set forth WP:GNL WP:NPOV Jonchache (talk) 21:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This is from the IT and financial services sectors, but I think it well sums up also why most industries, including the aerospace industry, use the term these days. - Ahunt (talk) 21:42, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This is an opinion piece, and has no value as a source document, any edits using that article as a source would be removed. If you feel so strongly, change the title of the Man-hour page to "person-hour". If that edit sticks, I will forgo this argument and leave this edit alone. Otherwise Man-hour remains the more proper noun in this wiki page, and any other page using the definition "The amount of work performed by the average worker in one hour" Jonchache (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The other users are warring is a best a misunderstanding, and at least grossly inappropriate. Please stop with the silly accusations. Thank you. DBaK (talk) 22:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Please stop making that edit in article space. Thank you! Drmies (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Just because it is your opinion, does not make it right. man-hour is the proper noun for a given definition, no matter how offensive it seems. Jonchache (talk) 21:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No, you misunderstand. My opinion is that you are edit warring, and editing against consensus, and that you should stop. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 22:03, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * How can a term with no basis in reality be a consensus, unless the consensus in Wikipedia is to provide false information to the world. Person-hour is not a noun, and any attempts to research person-hour is switched to man-hour, the proper definition. I highly doubt the consensus of Wikipedia is to promote false language. Jonchache (talk) 22:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry but you are just wrong: Encarta: per·son-hour (plural per·son-hours) noun Definition: unit measuring work: a unit that measures the amount of work that can be done by one person in one hour and the cost of that hour's work - Ahunt (talk) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That was an explanation only and a relatively well-written one, of why the term is in common use now. Otherwise your attempts to replace "person-hour" with "man-hour" have now been reverted by four different editors as running afoul of WP:GNL and MOS:GNL, so that is a solid consensus against you. In addition you have been formally warned. If you are here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS then you probably need to read that linked item and probably WP:DEADHORSE as well. - Ahunt (talk) 21:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * you did not provide content stating that it actually is common use, you are simply just trying to make it common use, which is WP:NPOV just because a group of users, online at the time of edit disagree with fact, does not mean that it is right. Tankman Jonchache (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay you are now deeply into WP:DEADHORSE territory. You have been warned politely above by an admin that you are edit-warring and editing against consensus. There is both Wikipedia policy and a solid consensus here against your proposal. You can either quit sealioning and agree to abide by the consensus or your account will get blocked. - Ahunt (talk) 22:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This is my talk page, warning me adds nothing to the conversation. You have added no meaningful sources, or contributions to this dispute, simply opinion, which leads to Ideological bias. If it is Wikipedia's consensus to stray from reality into a world of opinion, then so be it. Otherwise, "man-hour" remain the most proper noun. I intend on taking this to the WP:NPOV/N. Jonchache (talk) 22:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Jonchache - Also, impersonating an administrator, is probably not a good idea - I presume that's directed at me for level-4 warning you. Presuming you misunderstand about template warnings as anybody can hand them out, but unless you stand by that accusation - can you strike it please? Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I do stand by the accusation. The warning was made in poor taste, and to a new user, could easily think that a person handing a warning of being banned, is an admin, since only admin can ban. lets just be fair, you wouldn't have arrived at my talk page if the "vandalism" favored your point of view, which is why this is on the NPOV\N discussion board. An admin even arrived at my talk page, and asked me nicely to stop, maybe you could learn a thing or two about being nice. Jonchache (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, meant to add, "to new users who may not know the rules" at the end. Jonchache (talk) 13:13, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, had other editors also transgressed 3RR I would have hit them with templates as well, regardless of whose stance it favoured. But they did not.  I have a personal bugbear of editors proposing a change, being reverted and then starting discussion to appear appeasing - but at the same time still inserting their favoured version even when asked not to.  I will die on this hill, and I will give you plenty of rope at the same time.  Whether you hang by it, or make it into a swing is entirely down to your own behaviour and whether you're willing to learn by your experience here.
 * To paraphrase; accusing somebody of being an admin - and then doubling down when asked to strike - is probably not a good idea. Chaheel Riens (talk) 13:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the accusation was not that you are an admin, it was that you were pretending to be one, with blocking power, and giving me a "last chance". Meanwhile, the actual admin came in, and asked me nicely to stop, which was a much nicer way of communicating with a new editor, and an example of a more effective leadership style, over a flat warning. Jonchache (talk) 15:30, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that remark. Can I tell my wife? ;) Drmies (talk) 16:18, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * haha yes, you and me both. Jonchache (talk) 17:53, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Except I was not pretending to be an admin. I was not pretending to have "blocking power" - I was warning you that if your behaviour continued in the same vein then you may get blocked.  I used Twinkle, a freely available tool to speed up semi-automated tasks.  See more about Twinkle here.  In reality, you should thank me for the warning and stopping you before you really did get blocked.  But I accept that's not going to happen.  Also don't overlook that I'm not the only editor in the thread who's warned that your behaviour could end with a block.  Chaheel Riens (talk) 18:29, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

 * I get gender neutral, its fine, not the way I was raised, but ill drink the tea. But forcing it into places that is required isn't right. Or it starts getting made fun of an wiki will become a joke. Manipulated - Personipulated. manwich - personwich, man... is even in woman, not sure how that one will change.. woperson? A line needs to be drawn at some point to stop the nonsense. I said Id settle for labor-hour, but in reality anything over "person-hour" works. Jonchache (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Windmilling Imbalance
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