User talk:Jongleur100/Archive1

Welcome

 * I'll just add a quick personal note to the welcome template message above: I see you've been around for a year, off and on. I noticed your edit to Edward I and thought I'd drop by to leave a welcome message.  Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything. Mike Christie (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the welcome - even if it is a belated one! Like most people I dip in and out when I have the time to do so. The result is usually a short burst of intense activity like my present one.

Cheers. ♦ Jongleur100 ♦ talk 09:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Monmouthshire
If you haven't already done so, could you look at this? I've noticed that you've rearranged comments at Talk:Monmouthshire (historic) in a way which may make sense to you, but makes it difficult for other editors (like me) to follow the course of a discussion. Normally it makes very good sense to keep comments in chronological order, so that the debate can be followed. If you are making a new point - and on the face of it I'm not too clear exactly what point you are making in this case, or who you are responding to - it would be better to start a new section. Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments on my misguided contribution to the Talk:Monmouthshire_(historic) page. Although I have edited articles this was my first entry on a talk page - I'll know better in future! I hope you agree that the edits I have made to the article make it a little more factual and less subjective.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 07:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem - some of the Monmouthshire articles have been a bit of a battlefield between the Welsh and English editing lobbies, but your edits look fine to me. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Miners' Institutes
Jongleur, how did you hit that page so fast? Do you have a script set up that I alerted? This has been happening to me quite a bit recently, I build a page and within hours or sometimes minutes I get an update. Anyway, thanks for the typo fix, hope you think the page is worthy of a place on Wikipedia. Thanks FruitMonkey (talk) 11:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

PS. I was thinking of placing something at the top of the page to state the difference between workingmen's clubs and workingmen's institutes, but not sure how to word it. Any suggestions?


 * I just happened to be doing some editing. I had searched for a page on Miners' Institutes a bit earlier and couldn't find one, but suddenly, as if by magic, there it was! I was thinking about doing something similar myself - you beat me by a whisker. I'm doing a little bit of a clean-up at present, mainly typos. I think the clubs were quite distinct from the Institutes. I'll have a think about it.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 08:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, initially I was going to tag the institutes onto the Workingmen's clubs, then discovered how different they were. The institutes were originally no drinking, places of learning where as workingmen's clubs were centered around drink. I was thinking of placing a disambiguation link or pointer on top of the page to redirect people from both articles to each other to clear that up. There is also the issue of political and army clubs. I'm not sure which bracket they fall into?FruitMonkey (talk) 09:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

National Youth Orchestras
I'd like some advice please. I am currently writing a page for a National Youth Orchestra. This will join the entries for at least another three national youth orchestras with Wiki pages. I say 'at least' because I can't find out exactly how many. When I enter 'national youth orchestra' into the search box I get an automatic re-direct to the 'National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain' page.

While this is a national youth orchestra' it is not the national youth orchestra, of which there are more than twenty in  the world. (It's not even the senior orchestra, and there are four in the British Isles alone with 'National Youth Orchestra of...' in their title – Great Britain, Wales, Ireland and Scotland)

There are thirteen registered members in the European Federation of National Youth Orchestras. Hopefully most of these will eventually have pages in Wikipedia.

So I strongly feel that '...w/index.php?title=National_Youth_Orchestra' should not be a re-direct page, but a disambiguation page listing all the orchestras. ♦ Jongleur100 ♦ talk 06:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

How do I achieve this?


 * In a not too difficult to do at all! Currently, National Youth Orchestra is a redirect to National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain.  All that needs to be done in this case is turn the redirect into a disambiguation page, which I'm about to go ahead and do!  (I like disambiguating).  As for other articles, I've found National Youth Orchestra of Scotland, Singapore National Youth Orchestra, and National Youth Jazz Orchestra that could go on the disambiguation page.  (And more to be added as you/others create them!).  I'm going to remove the adminhelp tag from your page, as I think the issue is resolved, but if not, feel free to ask more! -- Nataly a  13:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Disambiguation pages should include links to articles whose titles can be legitimately confused with the term being disambiguated (see Disambiguation). At first, I'm hesitant to say that the other youth orchestras should be included, just because they have very different names.  If many people referred to those orchestras as "National Youth Orchestra" in their respective countries, however, then perhaps they would be valid to include on the page.  You might be able to make an article like a "List of National Youth Orchestras", however.  I'm not initmately familiar for criteria of things to be on lists, but if you take a look at Lists, there should be some information there. -- Nataly a  16:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Stanley Saunders
Oops! My mistake! I read the reference wrong. According to that website, he "…was a founding member [not a founder] of the National Youth Orchestra of Wales…" Thanks for pointing that out! Yvesnimmo (talk) 18:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think 'that website' may have got it wrong too. I have a list of founder members of the orchestra and Stanley Saunders name is not among them. He may have joined a year or two later. ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 23:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Newbridge

 * Hi - regarding Newbridge, Caerphilly and the X Factor entry - not mine sorry. I do watch it and admit it but not my bag. Newbridge does need a sort out. Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Thought it was your edit, even though I thought it a bit unlikely. Turns out it was unattributed. It's now been removed. ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 09:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

DYK????
Jongleur, was that your first DYK? If so congratulations, if not... congratulations. Have you started any new articles concerning South Wales recently that may interest me? As I'm always interested in expanding my watchlist, supposedly you need a watchlist of 3000+ before it crashes.FruitMonkey (talk) 00:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Apart from Dai Dower, already caught that one. Nice...FruitMonkey (talk) 01:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Yes, it was my first DYK. I was surprised to find Dai Dower didn't have an entry -I'm old enough to remember his fights. I'm looking for more, so keep your eyes peeled!  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 08:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Fruit Monkey "..Have you started any new articles concerning South Wales recently that may interest me?"
 * Check out Geoff Eales
 * Cheers,  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 09:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Nationality of David Hughes
re your comments that ‘Being born in India does not make you an Indian - parentage defines nationality’

Dear Jongleur

The David Hughes article is actually not correct when it says that Geoffrey Paddison was ‘of Welsh parents’, and I have been meaning to do something about this for a while now. It would in fact be more accurate if it were to say he was of Welsh extraction, because it was only his father who was Welsh. His mother, Susan Thompson, was English, and I have actually heard David’s sister Mary Wothers say that she was born in nearby Selly Oak, so the children were only half Welsh. By this token, and because he was born in Bournbrook, it looks like the scales may be tipped in favour of him being English rather than Welsh. Though obviously he was very proud of his Welsh side, being half English and born in England probably does make him ‘an English popular singer’ after all – what do you think?

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 19:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC))


 * '....only his father who was Welsh. His mother, Susan Thompson, was English...'
 * Perhaps 'British' may be a happy compromise, then? Cheers,  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 19:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, though I too was born in Birmingham of mixed parentage - in my case a Welsh mother and an English father. Whilst I am also bilingual in Welsh and English, and even live in Wales now, I still think of myself as English. My Welsh friends too consider me to be English rather than Welsh. As the categories attached to this article are ‘English opera singers’ and ‘English tenors’ perhaps it should stay as ‘an English popular singer’? (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 20:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC))


 * I'm Welsh, with an English wife, living in England. My daughters, (who were born in England,) think of themselves as being of mixed parentage. I don't think they'd describe themeslves as either English or Welsh. But if you want to claim David Hughes as English so be it. It won't stop the Welsh thinking of him as one of their own. (He wasn't that good an opera singer anyway!)   ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 21:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You may be interested in this quote from his sister, Mary Wothers : "Having been introduced by Henry as the young Welsh tenor, it was suggested that he choose a Welsh professional name. The obvious choice was our fathers first two names, and proudly Geoffrey Paddison became David Hughes. The Welsh influence remained strong in David’s life, and he appeared twice a year in concerts at Llandudno for 24 years until his death."
 * Cheers,  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 09:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You really do want David Hughes to be Welsh don’t you! Yes you’re quite right that he was proud of his Welsh ancestry, and even sort to use this as a way of promoting himself as a singer. But your original argument was that being born in England did not define his nationality and that because of his Welsh parentage he was Welsh. I see you have even added new Welsh categories to the article in accordance with your view that he was Welsh. The only thing is it still remains that his parentage was only half Welsh, and surely because he was born and bred in England rather than in Wales this would have implications for his nationality. Maybe something like ‘an English-born popular singer of Welsh extraction’ would be one way of getting round things? (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC))


 * I don't want him to be anything other than what he was. As a Wiki editor I try hard to be accurate and impartial. Hughes was proud of his Welsh heritage, as were the rest of his family. He was always presented to the public as being Welsh and he never even hinted that he wasn't. So to see him described as an 'English' singer is very strange to someone who remembers him, and his performances, very well. If his parentage, as you say, was half Welsh half English, to describe him as 'English' is wrong too. That's why I suggested the compromise 'British'. But I find your alternative ‘an English-born popular singer of Welsh extraction’ perfectly acceptable. I added the Welsh categories because they are accurate, but you will note that I left the English ones in place too.   ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 18:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear you think my suggestion is a valid one – as the editor may be you’d do the honours and make the alteration? Nationality can often be a complex issue especially in the British Isles. I was speaking from the point of view of knowing where he came from, as my late father actually grew up with him in Bournbrook when he was just Geoffrey Paddison. Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 19:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC))


 * And I'm glad that we were able to reach a happy compromise on that one, as I hate edit wars. There is one other thing that needs sorting. The article states that David went to the 'Royal Academy of Music and Dramatic Art' He couldn't have, as no such place exists. He either went to LAMDA, (London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art) or to the RAM (Royal Academy of Music,) which doesn't have a drama department. I rather think that it must have been the latter. Does anyone know for sure?  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 20:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn’t call it ‘an edit war’, merely a difference of view points, but as you say amicably resolved I hope. I’m afraid I can’t help much on the details of David’s training, but maybe Mary might know. If I can I’ll try and find out. (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC))

DYK

 * Many thanks.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 18:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: Gladys Morgan
Nope, I was on New page patrol and happened to see it. Nice work so far! Hers fold  (t/a/c) 17:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Pontllanfraith
Oops, sorry, I might have done it by mistake. Weisinger (talk) 15:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

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DYK
Many thanks. ♦ Jongleur100 ♦ talk 06:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

DYK
Cheers, I'm trying to build my DYK's not so much through rugby these days, thus the Egyptologist and Comics publisher. I really enjoyed your Gladys Morgan article, I think it's rounded and needed a page.

By the way, who do you see as the big pushers in the WikiWales field? I keep seeing the same few names appearing all the time, and feel that sometimes we are fairly lonely out here. Maybe I'm just hitting the same fields within Wales (ie South Wales towns and rugby) and therefore maybe you have a wider reach and see other big editors I'm missing.


 * I'll put myself on the board (that's me told). I agree with your thoughts regarding contributors; I understand it takes time and effort to keep up on Wikipedia, but most people on WikiWales seem to be ex-editors. ...and yes there do appear to be several people with their own agenda to promote in their editing of the Welsh pages.


 * Yeah, the Liebowitz page is a hang-up to a childhood love of American comics, I'm just old enough now to appreciate the people behind the history rather than trying to argue if Batman could beat Captain America. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Oi.
Don't remove my comments. — 97198 (talk) 13:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You removed mine!  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 13:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * When, in particular? — 97198 (talk) 13:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I thought I'd replied to you but it's mysteriously disappeared. Anyway, it's all irrelevant now as I've withdrawn the article. It was my last ever expansion of a stub and possibly my last article too. I have a life outside Wikipedia and am not inclined to waste it trying to satisfy the whims of other editors. Please don't bother to reply as I'm now on a Wikibreak.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk
 * Enjoy. — 97198 (talk) 13:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiBreak
Jongleur,

When I first started I created about 20 pages that were all speedy deleted (Not a chance to save them), and then I was told this was done so as the pages were not notable. This was done by our American friends over Welsh rugby union clubs that had been knocking around since 1880 and had produced multiple internationals. I was told there was no proceeding clubs on Wikipedia to base them around and the people who had deleted the pages had never heard of the clubs and there was little about them on the internet.

I got angry, very angry. I explained the position and I was told that my views were for a minority sport without reference. 20 rugby books later and after the creation of about 150 clubs and 200 players (I was told at one point, "Deleting of minority club, ...what are you going to do, create the whole league!), I still plough a fairly lonely furrow, but plough it I do.

When you get back drop me a line, I'm happy to reply to any spleen venting required. And if you continue to forge ahead I'd be more than happy to joint edit articles you think are valid but others find fault. We did a good job with some in the past.

Take care. FM. FruitMonkey (talk) 21:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Good to see you back. You are correct, there are those who seem to destroy rather than build, finding fault when they could be aiding other editors to create better articles. I think some have lost view of the ethos of Wikipedia, but there are good people out there too. I know what you mean by the adjective thing, I'm now a real stickler for referencing objective words to prevent others deleting. My addition to Arthur Gould (rugby player) has the line, '...he was the first superstar of Welsh rugby', and referenced it twice. But don't get stuck on your own again, update the article's talk page and tell me where to look and I'll try to help out. FruitMonkey (talk) 10:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Diolch.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 10:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)