User talk:Joy/Archive/2003

Welcome, newcomer
Hello Shallot, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian. You can learn more on the how to edit page. The naming conventions and style guide pages are also useful. There is a sandbox which you can use to experiment in. If you have any questions, see the help pages or add a question to the village pump. If you ever think a page or image should be deleted, please list it at the votes for deletion page. There is also a votes for undeletion page if you want to retrieve something that you think should not have been deleted. Angela 21:24, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Talk with Denny
Hi Shallot, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't change the signed comments of anyone in talk pages without clear notice, even minor changes. In my statement on the Ustasha talk page I meant the war of 1995, not the 1991-1995 war, and even if I was wrong factually, you just shouldnt change my talk, this is considered very rude, but instead point it out. I hope we will reach a great teamwork on such disputed topics and should try to calm down. After you read this note, you may delete it. --denny vrandecic 13:41, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Er, okay, sorry. I thought you just omitted the starting year. It's somewhat incorrect to say war of just 1995 since not all of those people became refugees that year. (In fact it goes hand in hand with the somewhat offensive notion of a bunch of separate wars rather than one big aggression, and you didn't seem like one to be perpetuating pan-Serb myths. :) Once again I apologize, I thought it was minor enough not to be worth mentioning. --Shallot 13:49, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * I meant specifically the operation Oluja, and if I remember correctly, this was a 1995 only thing. You are absolutely right that the actual war has begun earlier, but in this one case I thought Igor did especially reference Oluja, and I didn't want to include more then, thus making it even harder to talk about. I do not plan on perpetuating any myths, I just want to find out the truth - even if it is a dark truth about my own country. But I do see that here are some, who push their points very hard, without much concern to the truth. I certainly don't count you into that group. But we have to calm down, try to reach a consensu, and if this does not work, take the appropriate steps. And then it would be much nicer to be regarded as the 'good guys'. - As said, you may delete this talk after reading, or even just parts of it, not everyone needs to know my masterplan ;) Sve najbolje! --denny vrandecic 23:13, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)

P.S.: would you please allow Igor the chance to make the changes himself I asked him to do? This would be nice. Just wait a few days or so, and if he doesn't change it, we can still do it. I just want to see, if he is willing to cooperate in any way, or if other actions are needed. Thanks. --denny vrandecic 23:18, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * I sincerely doubt you'd get any sort of meaningful cooperation from someone who cites srpska-mreza.com as a real resource. That stuff is really appalling.


 * Of course, I won't touch the page. I've mostly steered clear of that page so far, there's just too much stuff there to be able to fix in one sweep without completely rewriting it. --Shallot 23:41, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Yes, you are right, this side needs some major rework. But this will need time, and I (being the incredible optimist that I am) believe, we can reach an excellent article on this - and the article will have a very special, brilliant quality if we really can create it together with Igor, Nikola and others. I have hope... --denny vrandecic 00:12, Sep 15, 2003 (UTC)

-

Wow! Great work. Many thanks.

Now let's see, what points will be further discussed, but I like it a lot already. --denny vrandecic 22:13, Sep 17, 2003 (UTC)


 * I decided to try to fix a lot of it. We'll see.

P.S.: please, could you check 3. januar if it is translated properly? I rather mean the template for the date-articles than the special day, but if it is ok, I would apply this template to the other days, and it is easier to check such a template once, before applying it, than afterwards changing a 366 articles... Thanks already!


 * There's a few small mistakes in the language, nothing important, I guess. --Shallot 23:19, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Cyrillic
Just saw your edit on Croatian language. Could you tell me how does Croatian Glagolitic differ from other Glagolitics? Nikola 20:13, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * It is my understanding that there are several different forms of Glagolitic letters and that some of them are only found on artifacts from Croatia, like the Ba&#353;ka tablet. --Shallot 11:12, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Neologisms
I have noted your comments at Talk:Croat and Bosnian neologisms. Please feel free to add an Accuracy dispute header if you feel it is deserved. Cheers, Cyan 02:38, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Serbian nationalism
I've noticed you're edits to the ethnic cleansing page. You should carefully watch User:Igor and User:Nikola Smolenski, they seem to think that the wikipedia is a dispensary for Serbian propaganda. Take a look at some of the articles they have worked on (and which I have attempted to undo the worst of).

Kosovo War Slobodan Milosevic Prishtina

And that's only some of them. G-Man 12:08, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I have lamented Igor's, and to an extent also Nikola's, slanted point of view on several occasions already. I only happened to notice the blunder on the ethnic cleansing page today; I would have intervened earlier had I known. It's pretty hard to battle seasoned propaganda, and in several pages I actually gave up disgusted with the amount of nonsense that would need to be fixed.


 * There's plenty of other examples; sadly, the better part of my contributions is about this! :( --Shallot 18:00, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

You're not the only one, I tried to persuade User:Dori an Albanian contributor to attempt to NPOV the Kosovo War article, but he gave up terrified after a few edits. I would try to do it myself, but I'me not an expert on Balkan affairs G-Man 18:21, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian
Nice editing on Serbo-Croatian. Thanks. Zocky 12:50, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * I saw your mass-edits and decided it was as good as time as any to structure it better, and particularlly in a less partisan manner, a work I tried to begin a few weeks ago but got sidetracked. I'm glad you liked it. --Shallot 15:04, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Czechia
I have no objection to the usage of Czechia. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Neologisms again
''Responding to a flamebait article with a flamebait... sadly, I'm not surprised. It's not exactly an example of tolerance to assert that because one group of people uses some word, another group needs to use it as well''

It wasn't my intention to flame. I'm arguing that a language standard serves more as a restriction on what can be used in official publication. For example, if one used a word that wasn't mentioned in an official dictionary in a book or newspaper article, it would get lectored. I believe that a dictionary should thus contain not only frequently used words, but also words used at all as long as they're not incorrect for whatever reason. I personally know Croat Muslims that use the mentioned word although they say they speak Croatian language.


 * Agreed, but there's a time and place for everything. If most people wouldn't understand a word, it should be replaced with a more common word among the audience -- I assure you that a whole bunch of people in Croatia wouldn't know what dajd&#382;inica stands for, regardless of which language they speak :) That is, using different words doesn't necessarily stem from nationalist or even purist sentiment. --Shallot 15:59, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Can't we simply agree that this grossly factually incorrect and stridently biased article needs to go the way of the dodo?

I agree. We should vote it off. Can you organize a few more votes? - Vedran


 * I'll have to investigate how the deletion voting works, but I'm pretty sure we could find support. --Shallot 15:59, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Removed sentence from a talk page

 * I'm really getting sick and tired of rebuffing your preposterous pan-Serbist ideas, Igor.

You are, of course, right, but i deleted the above sentence from the talk page. No sense in getting him even more excited. If you mind, just revert. Zocky 14:59, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't care much. I have already filed a complaint against him; I don't care if my lamentations get removed as long as something gets done about it. --Shallot 17:55, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Where the word "Bojinka" comes from
The word DOES come from Serbo-Croat, but it is also an Arabic slang word. WhisperToMe 18:38, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, you'll have to quote me the source -- an LA Times journalist is not particularly useful. It's my mother tongue, I never heard of it and it hardly even looks like a word in this language. --Shallot 19:37, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Serbo+Croatian+Bojinka

There are about 1,320 google hits with Bojinka and Serbo Croatian in it.

I think Serbo Croatian is the entire language family, while Croatian is a member of the family.

Among the sources is this: http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/malay_terror/hambali4.html WhisperToMe 00:10, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * None of that makes me any less sure that they're wrong. Google searches are fuzzy by default. Relationship among the languages is not really the issue here, none of the members of the central-south Slavic languages include the word either, to my knowledge. Journalists usually don't hesitate to copy&paste minor details without verifying them. The Croatian/Serbo-Croatian word for "explosion" is eksplozija, BTW. --Shallot 01:43, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Presidential flag?
I have never seen one. The federal flag with the coat of arms was the presidential flag. It was square and had a border in alternating red-white-blue. Maybe the same is true for republic flags. Zocky 12:39, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

BCS grammar
I googled for "jotation" and the third link (a largish .pdf) is a real gem. A great resource for Serbo-Croatian and related pages. Zocky 05:04, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC) (BTW, I think that some of the opening material is based on our wikipedia article :)


 * It's a bit large and I'm on a modem connection right now; I'll check it ASAP, thanks. --Shallot 11:01, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)