User talk:Jtucker77

Hello, Jtucker77. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a COI may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the COI guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:


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Hello Quisqualis  Please see my reply below regarding Conflict of Interest. Perhaps it is relevant that I have never personally met or spoken to Martha Alf. I do have access to reference material, books, and photos which made me a good candidate for adding to her Wikipedia page. Thank you again for your efforts today! Jtucker77 (talk) 21:27, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest
Hello Jtucker77,

I noticed that your very first edit summary reads: "This is an update on behalf of artist Martha Alf. All entries are from cited books, articles, catalogues, and gallery press releases. Please let me know if you find anything that needs attention. Thank You!!"

Therefore, you have a Conflict of interest regarding Martha Alf and should not be editing that article directly. Instead, you should be using the Edit request process at Talk:Martha Alf.

If you have been paid in any way for your work on this article, then you must comply immediately with Paid-contribution disclosure. This is mandatory.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  20:33, 24 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hello Cullen328,

Thank You again for your help with this article today. I am definitely not being paid or compensated for editing wiki pages. Martha is aging quickly so an acquaintance of mine (her caretaker) asked me to take a look at her Wikipedia page on her behalf. I am in the unique position of actually having access to the materials needed to create the page so I'm doing my best even though I have very little Wikipedia experience. I see now what you say about the conflict and hope I have not broken any rules. I am not doing this in an effort to promote the artist in any way, rather to add to the historical record of her contributions to the arts. I hope it makes sense and let me know if you think there is anything I should or shouldn't do. To be safe I will put future edits as recommendations on the talk page for review if you think it is better. Best!

Jtucker77 (talk) 21:05, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying the relationship. There is no need for the paid editing disclosure under these circumstances. Let me give you my perspective as an experienced editor who has worked on quite a few biographies of artists. The article is pretty good in its current form, but still needs work. A reference is needed for the biographical details at the beginning, and for the instructors other than Diebenkorn. Otherwise, it looks like name-dropping. If you can find a source that offers critical commentary on one of her iconic paintings, then we can include a low resolution image under the terms of WP:NFCI. Can you take a photo of her? I need to go now but would be happy to continue this conversation later. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  21:21, 24 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank You Cullen328

I'm afraid a current photo of Martha won't be as flattering as this beautiful portrait of Martha I uploaded just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MarthaAlfPortrait.jpg  Hopefully I did ok with the usage rationale. I think it should go in the floating box but I will wait to add it to the actual page until you agree it should be there. I also have a low resolution file of her Two Bosc Pears painting to upload soon. Your help is greatly appreciated! In the mean time, as recommended I will work on removing more listed entries from the article. Jtucker77 (talk) 23:41, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No, I am sorry but a "fair use" image of a person who is still alive is not allowed, because such an image is replaceable. You even know her and can take a photo of her, and whether or not it is "flattering" is of no interest to Wikipedia. Please read WP:NFCI carefully. Wikipedia is very strict about copyright because our content is freely available for re-use by anyone for any purpose. As long as she is alive, a freely licensed image is the only policy-compliant option. As for the pear painting, it must be added alongside of referenced critical commentary about that particular painting. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  00:16, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello Cullen328. I truly cannot thank you and Quisqualis enough for all the insight you have provide today regarding the Martha Alf article.  I am enjoying learning the ropes and hope to be a more productive wiki editor in the future.  I had no idea about the WP policy which bars us from using a fair use image for her portrait while she is alive.  I have another photo taken by her deceased husband that could work, but maybe complicated to copyright?  If so, I will work with my Martha's caretaker who is now locating a great photo he took we can use.  I can also schedule a time to photograph Martha myself which would also be ideal given I am a cameraman by trade.  I do have access to photos of her work so let me take the time go through the references and find a meaningful commentary that describes one of the many images I have available.  My plan would be to post the artwork as a low res image with a similar fair use statement to the painted portrait I put forward.  Cheers! Jtucker77 (talk) 04:13, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
 * You have adopted the right attitude toward improving this article, and I think that with a little bit of work, it will be an article to be proud of. The image of the artwork is acceptable if we have referenced critical commentary discussing that work of art. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  06:01, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

July 2019: Frank Auerbach doesn't have a listing of his shows...
Hello, Jtucker77. I checked some other living artists of note, and the articles about them do not contain any chronology of their shows. Lawrence Daws lists one recent major retrospective. It seems that the less material to be found in WP:RS, the more shows are listed in a WP artist article, which makes little sense. An article is both good and seviceable even when short and concise. Therefore, I am going to be WP:Bold and remove the history of Alf's shows from the article. When the biography (book) on Alf is written, the information will be useful to the biographer. Until then, it needs to be safely stored elsewhere, perhaps in an archive at UCLA.--Quisqualis (talk) 02:02, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello Quisqualis, I totally agree with your assessment that most other artists do not have a chronology of their shows. I too have been looking at contemporary artist pages including Frank Auerbach believe it or not! It clearly illustrates your point, none of them have any kind of lists. Interestingly and as a sidenote, I do notice that actors list their movies chronologically and would be curious to know the distinction or caveat that makes it possible for them but not an artist. (not that I want to list anything out!) I do see where artists such as Ed Rushca, Edward Hopper, David Hockney, and Norman Rockwell have selected exhibitions described in paragraph forms with good references. Because Martha has an extraordinary amount of articles, exhibitions, and museum shows I would like to make a statement to that effect with a proper reference. Then also to fill in the gaps by putting back passages and references relating to her most notable events as Cullen328 suggested earlier. I definitely agree there is no place here for lists and much of this information would be better served in an actual biography. Thanks a million for the insight you have brought here today!! This has been incredibly helpful! p.s. With the changes you completed, would we be able to remove the written like a resume flag now? Jtucker77 (talk) 04:43, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello User:Jtucker77. You are right, the article is not like a resume, so feel free to remove the tag. As for Alt's history of exhibitions, you could write a brief paragraph covering the various print media which have covered her, or else enumerate the most prominent galleries where she has shown.--Quisqualis (talk) 05:22, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

July 2019: Photos of Martha Alf
I have noticed that there are a number of current photos of Martha Alf on her Facebook page. The artist and art critic David S. Rubin socializes with Alf, and I believe he has photographed her. If you happen to know him, you might want to ask him to upload a photo of her to Wikipedia, provided he took the photo and owns the copyright to it. An article about an artist lacking images is less likely to be read. By the way, we all grow old. At least she has nice eyebrows and flowing hair. No need for a photo from her youth.--Quisqualis (talk) 03:20, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello Quisqualis, It has been my intention all along to add photos to this article however I lack the experience of knowing the finer points of WP protocol. As I mentioned above, I will work to find us a photo we can copyright without issues. In fact it is something I had been previously working on at wiki commons however they were taken down due to a lack of citations and/or references. I do have a letter from the Ethel Fisher foundation which I presented and got permission from OTRS to use the Martha in Morris Chair painting I presented earlier. Unfortunately it was swept along with the others over at Wiki Commons. I agree that old age is nothing to be ashamed of!! Like you say it happens to all of us, I'm well on my to 50 which seems old to me. The idea of using the painting or older photo comes from the artist herself. By the sounds of it she is a bit self conscious about her image. While I am sure we can get in touch with David Rubin, I think it is best to try to work with what we have first. I am also willing to schedule an informal photo shoot with Martha which would be ideal being that I am a cameraman. Regardless, I am excited for how the article evolved today. It looks so much better already! Thank You!!! Jtucker77 (talk) 05:07, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:MarthaAlfPortrait.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:MarthaAlfPortrait.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 02:29, 26 July 2019 (UTC)