User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2023

Happy New Year, Jweiss11!


Happy New Year! Jweiss11, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 20:07, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 20:07, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * , thanks for the good wishes. Same to you! Jweiss11 (talk) 22:36, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

New Pages Patrol newsletter January 2023
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Why?
In light of our recent discussion (here), why are you still changing season articles to the unnecessarily verbose and colloquial phrasing, as in this edit? Cbl62 (talk) 02:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Which part is colloquial now? I've eliminated the use of the "mark", to which you objected as colloquial. I found your arguments in that previous discussion very unconvincing and I don't feel bound to adhere to them. I'm happy to open this up for input from other editors. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:47, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Please cease and desist. Cbl62 (talk) 02:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not a reasonable order. At least maybe identify the "colloquial" element of the edit on the 1927 Wyoming article? Jweiss11 (talk) 02:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * You have eliminated the colloquial "mark", but you have taken that which was previously unnecessarily verbose and added ambiguity by the insertion of multiple "and's" in the same sequence. The parenthetical elegantly and smoothly avoids the need for the multiple "and's". Your antipathy to the use of parentheticals is not grammatically or stylistically sound, and it is driving you to adopt awkward and verbose phrasing. Cbl62 (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * There's no ambiguity there and the phrasing is not awkward. It's certainly not grammatically unsound. But if you object to two "and"s in the same sentence, the points for/against could be moved to another sentence: "In its first season under head coach George McLaren, the team compiled a record of 4–5 overall and 1–4 against conference opponents, placing tenth in the RMC. Wyoming outscored opponents by a total of 122 to 105." The problem with the parentheses is it relegates top level information to a bracketed aside. The team's conference record is more important than points scored/allowed. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:03, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I just don't get what it is that you have against the use of parentheses in prose. The use of parentheses does not demean or "relegate" the conference record and, indeed, highlights the information prominently in the article's opening paragraph. Parentheses are an accepted, efficient, and elegant way of presenting a related/connected prose thought, in this case, overall record (conference record). Your formulation, on the other hand, is unnecessarily verbose, using extra and unneeded words to convey the same content. Cbl62 (talk) 03:14, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * JW -- I apologize for my occasional curtness in our discussion. We both have contributed mightily to Wikipedia's coverage of college football, and it is only natural that we will sometimes disagree. But we should, of course, do so respectfully. Cbl62 (talk) 18:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Sun Jan 15: Wikipedia Day returns to NYC!
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Disambiguation link notification for January 13
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KC Medics
I noticed you linked references to the Kansas City Medics in several season articles from years 1896-1907 to Kansas City University. There appears to be a problem with that linkage in that our article on Kansas City University says the school wasn’t founded until 1916. Cbl62 (talk) 23:22, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Cbl, thanks for pointing that out. I've redirected the target for Kansas City Medics football to University of Kansas Health System. That's where Kansas City Medical College also points. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

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Nomination of John Hartwell for deletion
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Rex Hunsaker
Thank you very much for adding coaching records to the recently-creating coaching articles. One suggestion/request: Could you include a source for the yearly records? Cbl62 (talk) 23:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Cbl, I pulled those records for the Hunsaker article from standings templates like Template:1950 Oregon Collegiate Conference football standings, which has a cited source giving the conference records. But to assemble those standing tables entirely, some interpolation and piecing together is sometimes needed. Often, the standings published in newspapers only had conference records, not overall records. In those cases, the overall records are pulled from elsewhere, like a media guide, or if all else fails, the archive of the College Football Data Warehouse. For the 1950 OCC standings, I also had add in one conference game that occurred after the date of the source (Oregon College beating Vanport). I always try to find the final standings, but sometimes I can only find midyear versions. The yearly records at CFDW for Oregon Tech during Hunsaker's tenure appear to be missing lots of non-conference games, probably played against junior colleges. One of the sources you cited in the article reports Hunsaker coaching 110 games over 12 seasons, or 9 to 10 per year on average. Only 1950 and 1961 at CFDW appear to be complete. What do you think the best way would be to cite the table, given what we have? Jweiss11 (talk) 00:59, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Cbl, I just found the Oregon Tech yearbooks for the season in question. They contain listings of all games played by the Owls. I've updated the standing templates and the Hunsaker article accordingly. Adding up the individual season records, Oregon Tech's record under Hunsaker comes to 54–50–4, which is a bit different from the 60–44–6 record reported in the 1962 Herald and News article. Oregon Tech forfeited three wins in 1958. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for continuing to add head coaching tables as you did on George H. Hobson. One suggestion/request: These really do need to be sourced. It would be great if you could include a source when you add these. Cbl62 (talk) 18:28, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Cbl, I added a reference to the NCAA website for the Hobson record table. The yearly overall records can also be sourced to the 2011 media guide cited elsewhere in the article. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:05, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Jweiss11. Could you add a ref to the coaching table you added a few days ago at C. A. Clingenpeel? It needs to be sourced for my DYK nomination to be approved. Thanks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:57, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * BeanieFan11, I added a ref for Central Methodist overall records. The conference records would have to be sourced individually; see refs at Template:1915 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings and Template:1925 Missouri College Athletic Union football standings. Austin is a little tricky. There's no media guide I can find for them. I pulled the 1917 Austin record from the archive of the College Football Data Warehouse: https://web.archive.org/web/20150907084105/http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/incomplete_data/year_by_year_current.php?teamid=234. 00:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:36, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Contentious topic alert - gender and sexuality
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Westgate Park
Do you have a source to support adding Westgate Park to Template:San Diego Toreros football navbox and updating Westgate Park with that navbox? I can't find anything saying the football team ever played there. -- Pemilligan (talk) 18:37, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, see 1960 Cal Poly Pomona Broncos football team and the citations for game against San Diego on November 19. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:43, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'll look into adding something in the text of Westgate Park about that. -- Pemilligan (talk) 17:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Becker Hawks football


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CS1 error on E. L. Alexander
Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page E. L. Alexander, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows: Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:Qwerfjkl/Botpreload&editintro=User:Qwerfjkl/boteditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:Qwerfjkl&preloadtitle=Qwerfjkl%20(bot)%20–%20Qwerfjkl_(bot)&section=new report it to my operator]. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 05:21, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
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1945 military service football teams
Very nice work. Cbl62 (talk) 07:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Cbl, thanks. It's a fun puzzle to figure out these teams. If you have a chance, see if you can help flesh out 1945 Hutchinson Naval Air Station Gobs football team. I think they may have gone undefeated, but I'm having trouble locking down all their games and scores. I think I've exhausted Newspapers.com. I don't have an active subscriptions to NewspaperArchive. If you do, maybe try that? Jweiss11 (talk) 16:18, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Just saw this. Will take a look. Cbl62 (talk) 19:27, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I searched and came up empty on the two uncited games (vs Great Bend and at Herington). Cbl62 (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look. This article from October 27, 1945, states that Great Bend had lost to Hutchinson and beat Fort Riley. But I can't find anything else about either of those two games. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks also for adding the Litkenhous ratings for 1943 and 1944. Good additions. Cbl62 (talk) 17:29, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Apr 12 WikiWednesday + Earth Week (Apr 15-23)
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Orphaned non-free image File:Ernie Godfrey.jpg
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1939 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football season
It appears that the directional naming convention (NW, SW, SE, NE, Central) was not the common usage, at least not in 1939 for the football teams. The more common usage was by the name of the city where the schools were located, e.g., "Maryville State" rather than "Northwest Missouri State". Would appreciate your input on how best to reference these. Is this something you could spare a few minutes to collaborate on? Cbl62 (talk) 19:27, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * , I been meaning to get back to you about this. I think the best approach here would be a longitudinal analysis of the common names for each of these programs and then update all the relevant articles, standing templates, and navboxes accordingly. Missouri Mines / Rolla / S&T was also a member of this conference for a while. Let's start of by summarizing where we stand now based on how the relevant team navboxes and, in their absence, coach bio articles are set up:


 * Central Missouri Mules football (Warrensburg); Template:Central Missouri Mules football navbox
 * "Warrensburg Teachers" [no fight name] (1895–1917)
 * "Central Missouri State Teachers" [no fight name] (1919–1921)
 * "Central Missouri State Mules" (1922–2005)
 * "Central Missouri Mules" (2006–present)


 * Missouri S&T Miners football (Rolla); no team navbox yet; Template:Missouri S&T Miners football coach navbox
 * "Missouri Mines Miners" (1893–1951)
 * "Missouri–Rolla Miners" (1952–2007)
 * "Missouri S&T Miners" (2008–present)


 * Missouri State Bears football (Springfield); Template:Missouri State Bears football navbox
 * "Fourth District Normal Bears" (1909–1918)
 * "Southwest Missouri State Bears" (1919–2004)
 * "Missouri State Bears" (2005–present)


 * Northwest Missouri State Bearcats football (Maryville); Template:Northwest Missouri State Bearcats football navbox
 * "Fifth District Normals" (1908)
 * "Fifth District Bearcats" (1916–1918)
 * "Northwest Missouri State Bearcats" (1919–present)


 * Southeast Missouri State Redhawks football (Cape Girardeau); Template:Southeast Missouri State Redhawks football navbox
 * "Missouri State Normal" [no fight name] (1902–1918)
 * "Southeast Missouri State Teachers" [no fight name] (1919–1923)
 * "Southeast Missouri State Teachers Indians" (1924–1944)
 * "Southeast Missouri State Indians" (1946–2004)
 * "Southeast Missouri State Redhawks" (2005–present)


 * Truman Bulldogs football (Kirksville); no team navbox yet; Template:Truman Bulldogs football coach navbox
 * "North Missouri Normal" [no fight name] (1907–1909)
 * "Kirksville Normal" [no fight name] (1910–1911)
 * "Kirksville State Bulldogs" (1926–1937)
 * "Northeast Missouri State Bulldogs" (1967–1982)
 * "Truman State Bulldogs" or "Truman Bulldogs" (1996–present)

Jweiss11 (talk) 02:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * See discussion re 1938 changes at Talk:1938 Maryville Bearcats football team. Cbl62 (talk) 00:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * See also re 1939 data at Talk:1939 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football season. Cbl62 (talk) 01:39, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * As I said above, a better approach would be a longitudinal analysis for each team to get better sense of longer-range trends in each team's naming. We should not have Missouri Mines be say, "Rolla" in 1938, "Missouri Mines" in 1939, back to "Rolla" in 1940, and then back to "Missouri Mines" in 1941 or something of the sort. Also, your edit at Template:1939 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings introduced a a fightname into the shortname for Missouri Mines. We only do this in rare situations like "Cal Aggies" (UC Davis). I don't think this is due for Missouri Mines here. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, any instance in a table of "Springfield" as the short name for the Springfield / Southwest Missouri State / Missouri State Bears need a parenthetical state disambiguator to differentiate it from the Springfield Red and White / Gymnasts / Maroons / Chiefs / Pride of Massachusetts.
 * Agree with you about "Springfield" needing an "(MO)" for disambiguation. Cbl62 (talk) 02:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * For 1939, I have continued the usage of "Rolla" rather than flipping for that one year to "Missouri Miners". Cbl62 (talk) 02:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The year-by-year approach is a more precise methodology. An overall longitudinal approach is much easier but less precise. If you want to do a longitudinal analysis, it could save some time, and I would not object. The year-by-year approach is very, very time intensive. Cbl62 (talk) 02:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The longitudinal approach I'm thinking about should be just as precise, or more so, as it entails an analysis of each year, but in the context of all the years around it. The point is that if references to the Missouri Mines program are about 65% "Missouri Mines" and 35% "Rolla" each year from 1930 to 1939 except for 1936 where it's 55% "Rolla" and and 45% "Missouri Mines", the common name should just be "Missouri Mines" for all those years, as the blip in 1936 is probably just sampling error, not a meaningful change in common usage. It's sort of like smoothing a data chart. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:59, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with smoothing out the one-year Rolla blip if that's what you mean by a longitudinal approach. I thought you were suggesting that we just search decade by decade (or some such longitudinal chunk) without looking at the data year by year. Cbl62 (talk) 03:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "Maryville" needs a parenthetical state disambiguator too as there's Maryville Scots football. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:02, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I updated all the MIAA standings templates up thru 1942 to reflect the city names rather than directional names. The city names appear to to have been used often until about 1970, but I'm sure when exactly the common names switched; seems to be sometime between WWII and 1970-ish. For 1946 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football season, I see you used directional names. Was that intentional? Where should the cutoff be between city and directional names? Jweiss11 (talk) 00:14, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. My work on 1946 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football season predated our investigation/discussion and simply followed the existing conference template. It will need to be modified at some point. Cbl62 (talk) 00:20, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

New Page Patrol – May 2023 Backlog Drive
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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Frank Wickhorst.jpg


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Category:Davis & has been nominated for deletion
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Removing CFDW citations
I saw that you removed citations to College Football Data Warehouse from all of the Xavier season articles. E.g., here. Please don't do this as it leaves much of the content in the articles unsourced. Per WP:DEADREF:"Do not delete a citation merely because the URL is not working. Dead links should be repaired or replaced if possible. If you encounter a dead URL being used as a reliable source to support article content, follow these steps prior to deleting it: . . . 3. Check for web archives: Many web archiving services exist (for a full list, see: List of web archives on Wikipedia); link to their archive of the URL's content, if available. (bold in original)" In this case, most of the CFDW pages have been archived. Accordingly, when a nonworking CFDW citation is found, it should not be removed, especially when it is the sole source for some of the article's content. If you choose to, you could instead add the archived link - in the case of Xavier, the archived links can all be found here. Cbl62 (talk) 11:42, 5 May 2023 (UTC)


 * In this case, we have a dead link to a draft/working section ("Teams with Incomplete Game Data") of a defunct website. The archives of this incomplete game data can certainly be useful for pulling together a given team's schedule, but they should be taken with a grain of salt and verified elsewhere. I don't think this constitutes a quality source for our citation purposes here. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Based on your edit summaries, you have been removing these sources on the basis that the links are dead. WP:DEADREF is clear on this point -- you should not remove sources where archived links are available. If you are now asserting a new and different basis for removal, i.e., unreliability, then I disagree with that alternative basis even more strongly. The CFDW has long been considered a high "quality" source by the college football project -- indeed, I've long found CFDW (including the portions filed under the heading "Teams with Incomplete Game Data") to be the single most reliable source for older college football teams. For some teams, it is the only comprehensive database reporting game-by-game results. Will you agree going forward that, unless there is another source to support the article content, the CFDW sourcing should not be removed? Cbl62 (talk) 23:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * My more general point is to remind you of WP:DEADREF. When you come upon a dead ref, it should not simply be removed for that reason. Here is another example: In this diff where you removed an inline source for an NFL player's statistical accomplishments. In that case, Pro Football Archives is still functioning and it would have been better to simply fix the url. Here is the working version of that url: https://www.profootballarchives.com/playern/nolt00200.html Cbl62 (talk) 23:58, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

May 17: WikiWednesday Salon + Queering Wikipedia
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Orphaned non-free image File:Jim Aiken.png
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DYK for 1943 North Texas Aggies football team
-- RoySmith (talk) 00:02, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Atlantic Collegiate Football Conference


A tag has been placed on Category:Atlantic Collegiate Football Conference indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. –Aidan721 (talk) 12:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

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Edit conflict
Just ran into another edit conflict where I lost my work on the Tulane years at Bernie Bierman. When I'm in the middle of a major rewrite like this, please hold off to avoid these problems. Cbl62 (talk) 22:14, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

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Merge northeastern huskies football teams articles into 1 article?
There's not much content, and I don't see any sources other than day-by-day sports coverage and results listings. If they are notable, I think they should be merged together. Mrfoogles (talk) 17:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * To the extent that there's detailed coverage of games, I think that suffices to establish notability for single-season articles. Take a look at 1934 New Hampshire Wildcats football team or 1934 Boston University Terriers football team and the surrounding years. Those two programs were of similar status to Northeastern in that era. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

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Disambiguation link notification for June 12
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Nomination for deletion of Template:1960 Montana Collegiate Conference football standings
Template:1960 Montana Collegiate Conference football standings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Vitaium (talk) 06:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

New Pages Patrol newsletter June 2023
Hello , Backlog

Redirect drive: In response to an unusually high redirect backlog, we held a redirect backlog drive in May. The drive completed with 23851 reviews done in total, bringing the redirect backlog to 0 (momentarily). Congratulations to who led with a staggering 4316 points, followed by  and  with 2868 and 2546 points respectively. See this page for more details. The redirect queue is steadily rising again and is steadily approaching 4,000. Please continue to help out, even if it's only for a few or even one review a day.

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Nomination for deletion of Template:1951 Montana Collegiate Conference football standings
Template:1951 Montana Collegiate Conference football standings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 18:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:1976 Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference football standings
Template:1976 Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference football standings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 19:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Edwin C. Horrell.jpg
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Unused templates
Hey, if you create a template like Template:1998 Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference football standings, make sure you add it to an article or it will be eventually deleted. Gonnym (talk) 09:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Gonnym, thanks for the heads up. I've created thousands of templates like this, and in only a handful of cases have I made the oversight of neglecting to add them to the appropriate article(s) upon creation. It should be obvious from the context of its siblings that Template:1998 Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference football standings belongs at 1998 NCAA Division II football season. Rather than make a spurious nomination of such a template for deletion, as you've done several times in the past few days, it would be more helpful to just assist in placing the template appropriately. Jweiss11 (talk) 10:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but there is no way for me to know where to add yours (or anyone else's) templates, and if you take a look at one of the unused template reports, you'll see why. Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That sounds like the sort of response a bot would make. Of course there's a way for you to know here to add them. You just have to look. If you don't understand the intended use of a template, you probably shouldn't be nominating it for deletion. Jweiss11 (talk) 10:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Featured article review National Football League Players Association
I have nominated National Football League Players Association for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Are these coaches the same
Is D. C. Hall the same as David C. Hall the coach at Washington (Seattle)?- UCO2009bluejay (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That appears to be the case. See: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-seattle-star/127269885/ Jweiss11 (talk) 22:25, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I boldly moved the page from D.C. Hall to David C. Hall due to your help. I also found the page for David Hall (athlete). Link to merge request (since you have previously edited the aformetioned D.C. Hall page is below.)-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:33, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:2023–24 College Football Playoff


A tag has been placed on Category:2023–24 College Football Playoff indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz Read! Talk! 22:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Merger discussion for David C. Hall
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Sent by using  at 06:59, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Ryan Mallett
The article you created back in 2007 was No. 16 on the Top 25 Report of most viewed articles on Wikipedia last week. See here. RIP Ryan. Cbl62 (talk) 04:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Heard the bad news about Mallett the other day. Very sad. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Another barnstar for you

 * Cbl, thanks for the recognition! Jweiss11 (talk) 00:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

July 19 WikiWednesday + New York Botanical Garden Edit-a-thon (July 29)
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Comments on IDW

 * Viriditas, if you're standing at North Pole, every direction is south. Similarly, if one perspective's is left-wing enough, virtually everyone else seems right-wing, e.g. the "DNC"s right-wing donors"

I think this comment is hilarious, as you have it completely backwards from my POV. Post 9/11, the Overton window shifted to the right in US politics. If you’re a member of the GOP, or a member of a group like the IDW who is aligned with its interests, then everything to the left of you is liberal, even when it’s not. The Democratic Party in the US is currently center right. It is not on the "left" side of the spectrum in any way. This first became a topic in the media after Obama’s two terms were analyzed by experts. His policy position (and his admin) over eight years was described as that of a moderate Republican, a position that is frequently described as "left" of center because the GOP has moved so far to the right. Furthermore, the DNC does not embrace traditional leftist ideas in any sense of the term. Biden himself is against universal healthcare, a position that Democratic donors in the health care industry also oppose. These are right-wing positions; not left. The US currently has what Sheldon Wolin described as a managed democracy. US voters have two choices when it comes to voting: center-right conservatives or far-right conservatives. That’s exactly how the billionaires who captured the country designed it. If you think any of what I’ve said is fantasy or science fiction, then you aren’t paying attention. This has been widely known since Gilens & Page published their work in 2014. The US government doesn’t represent its citizens, it represents its wealthy donors. "The preferences of the average American appear to have only a miniscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy." This is also supported when it comes to analyses of voter preferences. There is wide support for leftist, liberal policies in the US, yet none of them have ever reached the light of day. The reason is obvious. We have, as Wolin correctly observed, the semblance and facade of democracy, without democracy itself. Calling mainstream Democrats "leftists" ignores the last two decades of history. Viriditas (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * How’s the weather at the left pole this time of year? Jweiss11 (talk) 02:09, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't know, as I don't identify as a "leftist" (but I do identify as a liberal). I realize that might surprise you, but I'm genuinely curious about your position based on your comments on the IDW talk page, as you can see from my reply here.  And if you are willing to entertain my interest, but don't want to discuss here, feel free to move this to my talk page.  It's totally up to you.  Or just ask me to stop.  But honestly, I want to know why you think the Overton window has been operating in reverse for the last two decades, contrary to what I've said.  But before we get there, tell me, based on my reply above, is there any one thing I've said that screams "leftist" to you?  I would appreciate it if you would pick just one, as it is easier to discuss that way.  I'm not trying to play gotcha (although it may seem that way), but honestly trying to understand your POV, and more to the general point, understand why we even have a standalone article on the IDW, when it's basically a joke/meme attributed to a single author. Viriditas (talk) 08:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Viriditas, well I'll answer the last part first, as it's simplest, and a totally separate issue from that of my political perspective. Why do we have standalone article on the IDW? Well, because the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources, mostly prominently the lengthy 2018 profile in The New York Times'. The term "intellectual dark web" indeed was coined by Eric Weinstein as a tongue-in-check riff on the illicit dark web, but the substance of what he was talking about was not a joke to him, nor to the others associated the group, nor to its critics. You could nominate the article for deletion, but I can tell you that I will vote to keep it, and I'm confident the nomination to delete would not be successful. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:38, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, that was a helpful response. I will start with the 2018 profile and go from there.  Why do you think this subject merits a separate article rather than a paragraph or two in EWs bio?  That’s pretty much what I’m asking. Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Because the substance of the subject goes well beyond EW's coining of it. The IDW article is three times as big as the EW article. Jweiss11 (talk)
 * Yes, I understand you and others think that, but I’m not yet convinced. I will continue to read up on it.  To me, it seems like a small, passing phase that doesn’t have much historical importance.  Of course, if there is more to be said about the subject, I would be convinced otherwise. Thanks for your time. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

As for the more complex questions about political perspective, your comments here and on the IDW article scream left (i.e. left of liberal) to me. I also identify as a liberal, but I would describe myself as centrist more than right or left. You've asserted that the Overton window in American politics has shifted to the right in US politics since 9/11. On which issues and subjects? Sure, we don't have universal healthcare now, but we didn't 20 years ago either. Seems that we have more people and more political candidates talking about it, and may clamoring for it, now. One the topic of say gay marriage, the window has shifted decidedly leftward over the last 20 years--and this is a good thing in my view. As recently as maybe 2012 and definitely in 2008, Democratic candidate like Hillary Clinton, Obama, and Biden wouldn't support gay marriage. Now it's legal across the US and many conservatives even support it. On the vast subject of racial and other demographic identity politics, much of the left half of the country has moved radically leftward over the past 10-15 years (with major inflection points in 2014, 2016, and 2020)--and this has been a very bad thing in my view. 20 years ago someone like Joe Biden wasn't talking about "systemic racism" or "white privilege". Jweiss11 (talk) 01:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. The reason I requested that you focus on only one point in my reply is to prevent you from using the Gish gallop, which makes it difficult to respond.  You just responded with four separate and highly convoluted arguments instead of just one, which makes it impossible to respond to and resolve in a single reply.  So let me try to take a step back and work backwards. It is important for us to to agree to data, facts and knowledge used by the reality-based community, but we can politely disagree on their interpretation and meaning. So let’s use that as a starting point.  Do you believe systemic racism, systemic sexism, and systemic discrimination exist, either in the past or today? I’m trying to find some common ground so we can move forward. Viriditas (talk) 02:15, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Convoluted? I identified three major issues: healthcare (universal or lack thereof), gay marriage, and race/identity politics. On all three, the Overton window has either not moved much or it's moved left over the past 20 years. Can you give me one issue where it's moved right? Obviously, in the history of the US (like virtually every multi-ethnic society), we've have vast, institutionalized racism (most prominently slavery, then Jim Crow and less prominently WASP discrimination against Jews, Irish, Italians, other "ethnic" whites) and sexism (e.g. lack women's suffrage, property rights, fair access to many professions, etc). While there are likely still pockets where this kind of systemic discrimination exists, at present, no, I don't think it's a significant force in most mainstream venues. If anything, mainstream liberal or lefty institutions (major media outs, schools and universities, most Fortune 500 companies) are more likely to discriminate against historically advantaged demographics than the other way around. Telling me the Overton window in the US has moved right over the last 20 years is like telling my that internet and mobile communications technology has gotten worse and less widely disseminated over the last 30 years. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:59, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, we appear to not be communicating. To avoid the problems with the Gish gallop, I am only currently addressing one thing, not three or four, at a time. If you’re unwilling to do this, and work from one thing to the next, then there’s no point in having this discussion.  I’m going to work my way backwards, because it’s the best way to address all of your points.  It appears from the above comment that you agree that systemic racism, sexism, and discrimination exists, particularly in the past, but you don’t think it’s a current problem today.  Is that a correct summary of your opinion on this specific point? Viriditas (talk) 03:09, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I don't see the "Gish gallop" you're alleging. I've made one central argument, rebutting your claim about the Overton window moving rightward, supported by three examples. Drilling down on one of those example, yes, your summary about my beliefs about racism in the US is largely correct. For example, I'm aware that there remain significant disparities between racial groups on things like rates of crime, incarceration, education, income, etc. I think these disparities are not, at present, driven in large part by racism or discrimination, by rather by the behaviors, beliefs, cultural values, and preferences of individuals. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You haven’t rebutted anything, but you are free to think that. The Overton window has shifted rightward globally; this is not in dispute and is fully supported in the literature.  I'm trying to address each and every one of your points one at a time to show you this, but I think you’re engaging in the Gish gallop on purpose to avoid this.  One more time, is my summary of your position on systemic racism, sexism, and discrimination accurate?  You have now expanded on it again, changing it ever so slightly, which is fine, but I can’t address your points if you keep changing them.  You now say systemic racism, sexism, and discrimination existed in the past, but doesn’t exist so much now, and is mostly due to individual beliefs and behavior, not systemic or institutional, top down discrimination.  Is that correct?  If it is, please explain where you got this idea from, as it flies on the face of the reality-based community. Did you read about it somewhere, see it on television, hear it from a professor?  It sounds like it’s a strong belief you have that is based on politics, not on evidence. We currently have dozens of GOP states which are actively discriminating against people based on race, sexuality, religion (or non-religion).  For one of many examples, at least 19 states have restrictive voter suppression laws that target non-white voters.  Your opinion appears to fly in the face of reality. This is why I asked you to focus on one point at a time.  So, please support this idea with your single best piece of evidence.  You can even describe it in a few sentences if you like. Otherwise, I will assume you can’t. Viriditas (talk) 03:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been talking about the US here, which is where you opened as well: "the Overton window shifted to the right in US politics." I have no idea how the Overton window has moved in Sri Lanka or Mozambique over the last two decades, so let's stick to the US. I promise you I'm not trying to deceive you. It seems as if we have radically different worldviews, almost as if we are on opposite sides of a religious belief. As for the evidence, the Overton window on gay marriage has clearly moved left over the last 20 years; see https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/record-high-support-same-sex-marriage.aspx. Here's similar data on opinions about universal healthcare, which suggest a smaller leftward movement: https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-healthcare.aspx. Do you dispute this? I'm happy to come back to the election laws later. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:09, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t think you’re deceiving me, I think you’ve been unduly influenced by bad faith debate endemic to the right wing community which relies on the Gish gallop. Outside that insular community, it’s not an effective way to communicate. We were talking about you providing evidence substantiating your assertion regarding the lack of systemic discrimination today. Viriditas (talk) 04:22, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You're assuming bad faith where there isn't any. I've interreacted with people all across the political spectrum. I've found that both right-wingers and left-wingers can be dishonest and bad faith actors. The main topic here is Overton window movement. Do you have any response to data on gay marriage and universal healthcare that I presented? Can we close that first and then move onto systemic discrimination and voting law? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I debate with people on the right all the time. However, you have to be willing to have good faith towards the person you are speaking with.  You have shown in this discussion an absolute refusal to engage in good faith by changing the subject each and every time.  This is normal for the right wing.  Right wing arguments generally use some variation of the firehose of falsehood, of which the Gish gallup is only one derivative, which in turn depends on Brandolini's law. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit arguments is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.  So you can continue to add argument after argument without ever having to settle the first argument.  That's what you are doing.  It's your talk page, so you are free to do what you want, but you can't expect me to respond.  I very clearly said from the first response, let's focus on one argument at a time, and when we're finished with one, we will move on to the next.  I then responded to your argument about systemic bias/discrimination and gave an example of its widespread use in voter suppression.  There are hundreds others like it.  You said that you didn't believe institutional racism/discrimination still exists when it comes to known disparities, and instead blamed culture and behavior.  I then asked for some evidence for this idea.  You didn't respond.  That's where we are now.  The first argument has not yet ended, yet you keep trying to change it to another argument.  So I will go back to the original argument once again, and try to drill down: using my voter suppression example, please explain how the behavior and culture of black Americans are responsible for the GOP suppressing the black vote.  I don't think that makes any sense.  Neither does your implication that the targeting of black males by police and the heavy headed response is motivated by black beliefs and behavior.  This has been studied extensively.  The problem is the culture of policing in America, not blacks, and the poor training involved in policing and the focus on unnecessary escalation and violence.  Then there's the problem with poorly educated cops, white supremacist gangs in police, and qualified immunity.  The Supreme Court has even ruled that the police do not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm. All the evidence bears this out. This is the result of extreme conservative jurisprudence in America.  So we are still stuck on the argument about systemic racism/sexism/discrimination.  You can't honestly believe we should also blame the behavior of women for institutional sexism and the behavior of the gay community for discrimination against them.  If your answer to every argument is blaming the aggrieved party, ignoring the offenders, and giving the perpetrators a free pass to attack Americans because they are different/other, then you really don't have an argument, you're in denial about the problem under discussion.  And you're not alone.  You're in good company with tens of millions of other Americans in denial about the real problems facing the country.  Feel free to archive this discussion. Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Viriditas, is there a barnstar for projection and hypocrisy? Because you should get it. I'm not changing the subject. There's a complex subject on the topic here, which a myriad of aspects. Let me remind you what the central subject is: the shifting of the Overton window in the US over the last 20 years. It would be nice if you could acknowledge the claims, backed up evidence, that I've made about the Overton window on gay marriage and universal healthcare. The aggregate behavior and culture of black Americans could not justify the GOP suppressing the black vote. If black people are being denied the right to vote because they are black, then that would indeed be institutionalized racism. I'm not convinced that's happening though. The GOP, whether it's justified or not, is concerned about voting integrity, so they've passed laws that do things like increase the number of days before an election that one must be registered. But these laws apply equally to people of all races. As for the "targeting of black males by police", the reality is that commission of crime varies greatly by racial group. The rate of commitment of murder is around seven times higher for blacks than it is for whites in the US. There's significant disparity for other violent crimes too. This is why there is a higher rate of incarceration for blacks. Men (of any and all races) are disproportionally imprisoned (compared to women). No one thinks this is because the police unfairly target men. Everyone understands that this is because men commit crimes, particularly violent crimes, at a much higher rate than women do. I agree with you that there are many problems with policing and its culture in the US. And I think generally there's been a leftward movement over the last 20 years on the Overton window about discussing these problems; there are good and bad aspects to this Overton window movement. Three years ago I made a lengthy post on Facebook about all this. You can read my thoughts here. Jweiss11 (talk) 10:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Eric Weinstein
If you know or are friends with Mr. Weinstein, please tell him to take a step back and stop embarrassing himself. His recent takedown by the hosts of "Decoding the Gurus" is too much for anyone to bear. He really needs to realize that the path he is on is not a good one and should just stop what he is doing. It might be a good time to devote his life to service to others and to charity work and start over. His treatment of Mick West was beyond the pale, and makes him look like a terrible person. I say this with only the best of intentions. Sometimes you just have to do a 180 and realize that you're just wrong. The only person stopping him from starting over is himself. I feel terrible for Mr. Weinstein and I hope he can change his ways sooner rather than later. Viriditas (talk) 09:44, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know Eric personally. I spoke to him briefly once when I spotted him after an panel event at the 92nd Street Y in early 2019. I don't know anything about him and Mick West. I've also never listed to a "Decoding the Gurus" podcast, but I've heard of it. Looks like you're talking about the most recent episode, 78. I may give it a listen. I see that many of the "Decoding the Gurus" episodes have IDW-ish figures as guests or subjects. As for EW, I will certainly concede that he has a habit of saying things that sound profound but are obnoxiously vague. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:14, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like some of the IDW are reading this page or got the message. They've been attacking the Reddit sub for DTG for the last 24 hours. Viriditas (talk) 07:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * By this page, do you mean my user talk page of the article on the IDW? I almost never look at Reddit. Can you give me a link? Jweiss11 (talk) 23:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * They are saying it is the Eternal September phenomenon, which sort of tracks. But it really does seem they've been under constant attack since we had our conversation.  Here's the link.  The Sam Harris controversy is super interesting. Half the group hates him, half the group likes him. I really like this DTG sub.  Very smart group of people. Viriditas (talk) 08:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Football coaches
Are you going through the BLP PROD folks in any particular order? I don't want to step on your toes. Mackensen (talk) 16:02, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I just went through all the ones listed at User talk:Paulmcdonald. Have at the rest of them! Jweiss11 (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. I'm going order from WikiProject College football/Article alerts. 39 altogether. Mackensen (talk) 16:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

CAA football champion categories
Jweiss, question for you. Were the 2007 through 2022 Colonial Athletic Association football champion seasons' categories supposed to remain under that name? I just realized that I may have accidentally included "Colonial Athletic Association football champion seasons" in the mass speedy CfD -- i.e. 2007-2022 should not be Coastal Athletic Association Football Conference, correct? SportsGuy789 (talk) 14:46, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * SportsGuy789, the Coastal Athletic Association Football Conference was founded in 2007 as separate entity from the Colonial Athletic Association and named the" "Colonial Athletic Association Football Conference"; the named was changed in this year to "Coastal Athletic Association Football Conference"? Is that all correct? Jweiss11 (talk) 18:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that all tracks. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I just realized something
I think you would get a kick out of my liberal claptrap that I left on TheXuitts' talk page, which he promptly deleted, as I clearly offended him (not my intention, but I understand now why he was offended, after seeing some of his other edits). Would you care to comment about my comment? Viriditas (talk) 06:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

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Distinguishing pages
Hello! I am wondering how you would go about distinguishing between Newberry head coach Todd Knight and Ouachita Baptist head coach Todd Knight.

I was thinking by birth year but I can not find definitively when each coach was born, and it appears they were also both born in the 1960s.

Thank you! Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 23:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Thetreesarespeakingtome, I just saw the convo about this on 's talk page. Until you can find exact birth dates for the Todd Knights, I think BeanieFan11's suggestion of Todd Knight (Newberry coach) and Todd Knight (Ouachita Baptist coach) would be best. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

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Thanks
Honest appreciation for taking my comments at Heterodox Academy in the way they were intended. It was a long day and I was more curt than I should have been. Suffice it to say I think you have a perfectly reasonable position--though the other side does too. Personally, I go back and forth. But what I see are a bunch of people engaging in good faith, and I don't believe there is any overt political agenda at play. That said, we all of course have our subconscious biases. I am not sure the impasse will be overcome there. Perhaps dispute resolution or an RFC? As I said, sometimes it's a matter of persuading enough other people. With that, have a nice day. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Dumuzid, thanks the note here and your advice. I think the substance of the dispute, in terms of impact on article content, isn't big enough to escalate. Probably better to just wait to see if more folks weigh in and if more sources emerge. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

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An award for you!

 * Uh, your welcome? Once again, you're deserving of a barnstar for projection and irony. The question about whether or not James A. Lindsay should be referred to as a "mathematician" is not a question about fringe theories, and therefore not a relevant topic for Fringe theories/Noticeboard; it's relatively boring question about professional qualifications and common labeling by journalists. The question about about whether Lindsay's political commentary qualifies him as a "conspiracy theorist" is far more apt for that noticeboard. Jweiss11 (talk) 11:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * May I just say that you are incredibly entertaining. Your avowed liberalism has a lot in common with my strict adherence to Zoroastrianism. Given our last bout in the virtual dojo, I will be far more prepared the next time we meet. Thanks for the practice. Viriditas (talk) 12:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Pain does not exist in this dojo! Jweiss11 (talk) 12:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Question

 * The question about about whether Lindsay's political commentary qualifies him as a "conspiracy theorist" is far more apt for that noticeboard.

I'm really trying to wrap my mind around your position. Can you explain why a conspiracy theorist should not be described as a conspiracy theorist? From what I can gather, you have argued that the sourcing isn't strong enough for such a statement. Is that the entirety of your argument? Because, if there's other aspects to it, I would like to know in this phase of discovery. :-) Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Because I don't think it's fair to call him a conspiracy theorist in wikivoice. I addressed this on the fringe theories noticeboard when I said, "Yes, there a few other opinion pieces penned by Lindsay's political enemies, one from the leftist defamation mill Salon.com and two others from avowedly Marxist publications like Current Affairs and Jacobin. I wonder how a Marxist will react to someone who is highly critical of Marxism? Click thru to find out! Nevermind, let's just let Marxist sources have the final say on critics of Marxism and put it in wikivoice. NPOV for the win." In short, while I think Lindsay is often a spaz and goofball on Twitter, I don't think his profession is "conspiracy theorist" and do think the substance of his significant work amounts to legitimate criticism of leftist intellectualism and politics. The efforts to label him as a conspiracy theorist are an extensions of that very same leftist intellectualism and leftist politics trying to defend itself here on Wikipedia by delegitimizing its critics. On the fringe theories noticeboard, we had one editor suggest that Helen Pluckrose be examined to see if she too is a "conspiracy theorist". See how this works? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:36, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I got that part. Let me ask another question: what counterexample would falsify your general statement to the point that you would abandon it?  That's just a technical way of saying "what evidence would you accept that would change your mind on this particular point?" Viriditas (talk) 01:43, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * If Lindsay wrote a book about how the Jews really did 9/11, I think I'd be on board with calling him a "conspiracy theorist" in wikivoice, although I think that term gets thrown around way too liberally here on Wikipedia. At one point Oliver Stone was labeled a "conspiracy theorist" in wikivoice. I think the current version of the lead of article is fairer. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:53, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for a fair answer. I haven’t been following Oliver Stone that closely lately, but he did fall deeper into conspiracy theories a while back. Also, serious scholarly critics of his JFK (1991) film often refer to it as a hefty smorgasbord of conspiracy theories somewhat removed from the known facts.  I guess what I’m trying to say is that even though I’m not that familiar with Stone, it doesn’t sound altogether unreasonable to describe him as a conspiracy theorist on the left. Now, getting back to Lindsay, it is confusing to me that you give his Twitter feed a free pass while taking him to task for his books.  You also ignore his lectures which feature conspiracies.  To me, your position is inconsistent. Twitter (or X) is widely considered to be a new and modern form of messaging, much like books were at the height of the information revolution in the 15th century due to the printing press. It appears oddly convenient for you to eliminate his tweets from evaluation. Viriditas (talk) 02:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Twitter is largely a sewer pit filled with bots and people with personality disorders hiding behind anonymous avatars, particularly the political parts in which Lindsay swims. I think it's also something of a draft space for one's thoughts. So, I'm weary about convicting someone for something they did in that hellscape. I haven't listened to more than part of a couple of his lectures. They're abstruse and filled with academic jargon that's difficult to parse in one casual listen. But his arguments generally seem reasonable to me. Can you point me to what you consider his most "conspiracy theorist"-esque tweets and lectures? Jweiss11 (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I want to backup for a moment. I only just now took a look at Oliver Stone. I don’t have a problem with how he is described as a conspiracy theorist in the lead, and I think I understand your point about how the article on Lindsay doesn’t do this, and instead uses wikivoice.  Why don’t you open a RFC on the Lindsay talk page about this and get an opinion from the wider community and put this to the test? My guess is you might succeed in getting it changed to match Stone. I honestly don’t know which is the best or correct style. Viriditas (talk) 02:34, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * To say that Lindsay's critics have accused him of being a conspiracy theorist, rather than simply stating in wikivoice that he is one, would certainly be an improvement. Perhaps I will pursue that RFC. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:37, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Can we please move forward on this? Can you and User:VibrantThumpcake agree on a neutrally-worded RFC? I can offer suggestions if you've never done it before. Viriditas (talk) 19:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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"rem section"
Is there precedent or consensus for this and other edits? If so, please mark that in your edit summary. Thanks. If not--why remove it? Drmies (talk) 00:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Drmies, yes, please see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * OK--thanks for the link. Ha, if I'd have known: I think one short paragraph is not irrelevant, but hey, I wasn't there. OK, please put a link to that discussion in your edit summaries, and then no one will ever bother you again about it. Also, thanks for trimming: it saves server space and thus electricity. Roll Tide. Drmies (talk) 00:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The team season articles for the last 10 year or so are getting out of control and very messy. The discussions about those previous season sections and these article in general are not over, so feel free to weigh in. I'm not opposed to referencing the 2016 season in places at 2017 Alabama Crimson Tide football team, but a dedicated section seems like overkill and contributes to the bloat of these articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Just refer to the discussion in your edit summaries please. Drmies (talk) 00:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

OU football season mass logo removal
Is there a reason for why you have seen fit to mass remove the logo image from OU football season articles? Dcheagle  &bull; talk &bull; contribs 06:29, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, did you see my edit summaries about the logo being "anachronistic"? Jweiss11 (talk) 06:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

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Template:Northern Michigan Wildcats football navbox
FWIW, I don't think the above template should have been expanded to include every season from 1904 forward. Unless there is a reasonable expectation that the redlinked articles can and should be created, we should not have redlinks. See WP:REDNOT ("Do not create red links to: Articles that are unlikely to be created and retained on Wikipedia..."). In the case of Northern Michigan, most of the redlinked seasons should not IMO have articles, and listing them all on the template encourages less knowledgeable editors to create articles that don't satisfy WP:GNG. (This is a broader issue that applies to many smaller programs and would be worth discussing at some point.) Cbl62 (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * While agree with that you many or most Northern Michigan seasons are not likely to be worthy of a stand-alone article, virtually all of them could be created as redirects to some sort of group article, e.g. 2022 Northern Michigan Wildcats football team, which you created. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:07, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The standard in REDNOT is whether the articles "are unlikely to be created and retained". I'd say that the vast majority of Northern Michigan seasons fit that bill. The remote possibility that someone, some day might possibly create a redirect target for these seasons doesn't IMO justify the "sea of red" or concerns about encouraging others to create season articles that fail GNG. If and when someone does create such a redirect target, then it can be added to the navbox at that time.


 * There are way too many of these red-sea navboxes. E.g., Bridgewater (61 redlinks, 2 bluelinks), Framingham (45 redlinks, 3 bluelinks), Johns Hopkins (140 redlinked seasons); Lake Forest (> 130 redlinked seasons), Massachusetts Maritime (48 redlinks, 2 bluelinks), Plymouth (52 redlinks, 2 bluelinks), Rhodes (> 120 redlinks), Tufts (> 140 redlinked seasons), Wabash (> 120 redlinked seasons); Westfield (39 redlinks, 2 bluelinks).


 * Template:Chicago Maroons football navbox is a good example of the problem. The template should stop in 1939 when football was terminated by the school. Instead we have 60 redlinks for Division III seasons 1963-2023. We've seen (I think multiple) cases where the redlinks have spawned the creation of season articles that have then been deleted at AfD. Cbl62 (talk) 04:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Consistency and comprehensiveness are more important here. A navbox with only the years that have been (often randomly) selected for relatively early creation is less helpful that one that frames out the full history of the program. What are the odds that say, sometime in the next 10 years many/most/all of those post-1963 Chicago Maroons red links will become blue? It's non-trivially above zero. All of those season articles that have been deleted likely should have been refactored into a grouped season article. Your own editing has demonstrated that his can be done far and wide across the landscape of the smaller-school college football. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The odds of the post-1963 Chicago seasons being created -- and retained if challenged at AfD -- are remote. They clearly fall within REDNOT's "unlikely to be created and retained" standard. Cbl62 (talk) 04:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Can explain how 2000 Chicago Maroons football team, created as redirect to 2000 University Athletic Association football season or Chicago Maroons football, 2000–2009 would be unlikely to be retained if challenged at AfD, but 1946 Ottawa Braves football team, 2022 Wayne State Warriors football team, and scores of others like those two, which you created, pass muster ? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Pure red herrings, but ok let's go with that: 1) Neither of those (1946 Ottawa/2022 Wayne State) are stand-alone season articles. 2) I don't know whether the 2000 University Athletic Association football season received enough SIGCOV (I doubt it), but 3) if it did and 4) if and when someone, some day creates a conference article (which seems "unlikely" in the words of WP:REDNOT), 5) then a link should be added to the Chicago Maroons navbox. That highly remote and speculative possibility is not a sufficient basis to create massive seas of red. Cbl62 (talk) 12:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * These are not red herrings at all. Did I suggest any of these should be stand-alone team season articles? No. Are the 1946 Ottawa, 2022 Wayne State, and 2000 Chicago reasonable analogs? Yes. Meanwhile, let's take a look at 2022 Wayne State Warriors football team, which redirects to 2022 Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference football season. That section is totally unsourced and the schedule table there has no wikilinks. Let's fix real problems (that one) before we concern ourselves over imaginary problems (like the one you raised here). Jweiss11 (talk) 14:11, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a real problem, J-dub. It encourages editors to create articles on plainly non-notable seasons (as we have seen and will continue to see). The more that happens, the more likely it is that anti-sports editors will target CFB season articles for mass deletion or mass draftification.  We need to police our own project.
 * As for 2022 Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference football season: If that's your idea of a "real problem", you're entitled to your opinion, but I think 42,600 bytes and 34 in-line citations is a pretty good start (as you yourself opined when you rated it as a "Start"). There's always room for improvement, but I feel quite good about my work on that one. Cbl62 (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


 * FWIW, Template:Cleanup red links states (emphasis mine):
 * Red links are generally not included in either See also sections or in navigational boxes [...] since these navigation aids are intended to help readers find existing articles. The exception is redlinks in navboxes where the articles are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referendums, presidents, sports league seasons, etc.
 * I'm surprised that WP:REDNOT does not currently mention this useful function of redlinks in navboxes as a navigation guide to the red/blue articles that exist within a defined set.
 * PK-WIKI (talk) 14:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes sense in situations where it is likely that the whole series or set is likely eventually to be created and kept (e.g., presidents of a country, successive elections for Governor of Texas, NFL/NHL/MLB league seasons, Division I football season articles, etc.). It was not meant to be applied to series or sets that should never be completed and will be perennial seas of red. E.g., Bridgewater, Framingham, Johns Hopkins; Lake Forest, Massachusetts Maritime, Plymouth, Westfield, and the like. Cbl62 (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * 2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team is an example of how these "sea of red" navboxes inspire people to fill in the red and create articles on non-notable seasons. This is a Division III team that didn't advance to the playoffs, didn't win a conference championship, and an article that lacks any indpendent sourcing whatsoever. It should be deleted. And, frankly, this is a case where the navbox should probably be deleted as well. Cbl62 (talk) 17:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Both 2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team and Template:Plymouth State Panthers football navbox were created by the same editor,, who happens to have done a lot of good work in the last year stubbing out NCAA Division II and III program and coach bio articles. It's hard to understand why you would support deleting 2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team, rather than refactoring it into a grouped season or conference article, when you created numerous analogs like 2022 Ohio Athletic Conference football season supported by redirects like 2022 Otterbein Cardinals football team. Do you see how the policies you're advocating for are at odds with your own editing behavior? You have a knack for doing this sort of thing, like when you questioned my creation of 1973 Northwestern Red Raiders football team back in 2020 (see: User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2020) only to turn around months later and create scores of analogs like 1976 Westminster Titans football team. I appreciate all the great editing that you do. But policies and strategies that you advocate for are sometimes rather bizarrely inconsistent, and this is one of those times. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Seriously? 1976 Westminster Titans football team and 1973 Northwestern Red Raiders football team both won national championships! While there was a question back in 2020 as to whether we should ever allow stand-alone season articles for sixth-tier NAIA teams, we've since concluded that an NAIA national championship team can and should have an article if it's adequately supported by WP:SIGCOV. That's settled territory, and the ones I created are all supported by abundant WP:SIGCOV (including 24 sources in the 1976 Westminster article) so as to pass muster under WP:GNG. So how in the world are either of those cases a basis in any way, shape, or form to keep 2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team, a Division III team that didn't even win their conference championship and an article that lacks even one piece of SIGCOV??? Thetreespeakingtome may well be a fantastic editor, but we don't keep/delete an article on that basis. The key to notability is SIGCOV. If there's sufficient SIGCOV from independent sources, a stand-alone article is supportable. If not, it fails GNG and should be either deleted, redirected, or merged. Call it "bizarre" if you like, but that's the real basis of consistency. Cbl62 (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You're not following my arguments. I didn't equate 1976 Westminster Titans football team and 1973 Northwestern Red Raiders football team to 2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team. I was comparing your stance on 1973 Northwestern to your stance on 1976 Westminster just a few months later. I brought that up to illustrate your general pattern of inconsistency in policy advocacy. 2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team likely should be merged, but surely not deleted. And when 2022 Plymouth State is merged, "2022 Plymouth State Panthers football team" becomes a redirect. The same would be true for very other year of Plymouth State football. So every one of those seasons links could be turned blue, hence why they should all be in the navbox. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:28, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * So your discussion of 1976 Westminster and 1973 Northwestern had no relation at all to 2022 Plymouth (the case under discussion) and was simply an attempt to show that I lack credibility as an analyst of notability? That's an interesting approach. I still maintain that 2022 Plymouth needs to be deleted, redirected, or merged. Unless there's something to redirect to (or merge with), delete is the only option. Cbl62 (talk) 00:26, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The discussion of 1976 Westminster and 1973 Northwestern was to give a second example illustrating that while you are indeed a credible analyst of notability on a case-by-case basis, at a high, strategic level, your policy and content management advocacy shows, at times, bizarre inconsistency. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:31, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You're entitled to your opinion, of course, though neither my AfD result-match rate (92.1%), some five percent higher than yours BTW, doesn't bespeak any degree of "bizarre inconsistency". Nor do my comments about your lightly-sourced 1973 Northwestern Red Raiders football team article. As I've tried to emphasize with you over the years, the important consistency lies in honest and consistent application of the GNG standard. The 1976 Westminster article is robustly sourced with 24 in-line citations and has several detailed game summaries. In contrast, the 1973 Northwestern article still has only three sources and zero game summaries. So, in sum, I find your suggestion of "bizarre inconsistency" to be more than a little bizarre. Cbl62 (talk) 23:56, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding additional sources to 1973 Northwestern Red Raiders football team. That really pushes it well over the line as a clear GNG pass. Nice work. Cbl62 (talk) 00:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

1983 WPI Engineers football team: Revision history
Another edit conflict. I was adding all the cfblinks and other fixes when I hit an edit conflict. Turns out you jumped in to do some of the same. Again, it would help avoid such problems if you could wait at least an hour before jumping in when you see I'm actively working on an article. Thanks, Cbl62 (talk) 04:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
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Lightburst (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


 * , I only created Jersey Tigers as a redirect to Atlantic Coast Football League. expanded it into an article. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Whoops, sorry for my confusion. Thanks for all that you do. Lightburst (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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Sonny Holland
Hi @Jweiss11, I hope you're having a good day.

Could you tell me what exactly you mean by "non-standard formatting", please? I think I did not break any rules, because I followed the Manual of Style, as I explain below.
 * Correct link for his retired number according to: MOS:SPECIFICLINK
 * Big Sky titles according to: MOS:MORELINKWORDS
 * Duplicate link removed according to: MOS:REPEATLINK and MOS:OL.

In addition, I added spaces in the infobox so that it is easier and more organized when opening the editing window.

I won't undo the edit until I get your response.

So, once again, if you tell me what exactly you mean, and what my mistake was, I'd appreciate it. Cheers! =) Sergio Skol (talk) 16:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Sergio Skol, thanks for messaging. I've been meaning to drop you a note on this. My objections to your edits at Sonny Holland, have nothing to do with the three bullets you enumerated above. My objections have to do with standard practices for the use of Template:Infobox college coach. 1) alma_mater field should only be populated when the subject doesn't have a playing tenure listed at the same school or when accompanied with degree or year of graduation info. Otherwise, it's redundant. 2) You removed standard formatting for high schools with parenthetical state codes. 3) "assistant" is preferable to the "AC". 4) You changed the form of the overall_record and ournament_record away from the standard parenthetical qualifier to a leading qualify with semicolon. 5) You introduced non-standard bullets into the championships field 6) "2× Big Sky" is awkward in a field labeled "championships" as it implicitly reads "two-time Big Sky championships" instead of "two Big Sky championships". 7) The extra spaces you introduced are non-standard and unstable. With that practice of justifying the equal signs, if and when the longest field labels are removed or renamed or new longer field labels are introduced, the spacing gets jagged and uneven. That makes it more difficult to read and decreases consistency between instances of the templates in different articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

 * , thanks. Long time, no see. Hope you are well. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Potential discrepancy
Thanks for added weekly rankings to 1999 Youngstown State Penguins football team. One potential discrepancy: According to the infobox, they were ranked No. 2 at season's end. According to schedule table, they were ranked No. 9 prior to last game, which they lost. Those two items appears inconsistent. Cbl62 (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The last in-season poll was before the playoffs. Then there was a final poll after the title game. See: 1999 NCAA Division I-AA football rankings. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Cmon JW
I'm doing the GA review for Tufts coach Lewis Manly for Beanie and there's no record table? Not sure how you missed someone from your alma mater. :) WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 07:18, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help. Was there a source for the records? WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Clingenpeel
Hi Jweiss11. You added the coaching records and stuff to the article I wrote on C. A. Clingenpeel - you have listed in 1926 that Central went 5-1 in conference play and placed third in the conference - however, Central's yearbook (p. 99 in issuu) says that they were undefeated in the conference and were conf champions that year - can you solve this issue and determine whether or not the yearbook is correct? I'd appreciate it. Thanks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:49, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I based the 1926 conference results on this article: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-springfield-news-leader/55745206/. Central lost to Westminster, but it seems that Westminster later forfeited a bunch of games and the conference title? Jweiss11 (talk) 02:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that - in the coaching record, when wins were forfeited by another team, do we count those games as wins for the team that lost initially (i.e. should the coaching record for Clingenpeel say 5-1 or 6-0 due to Wesminster's vacating their wins?). BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Or 5-0, since it's not clear to me if forfeited wins by the opposition become wins for the team at issue. 17:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of "forfeited" wins that didn't becomes wins for the other team. At any rate, the cited Central Methodist records report on page 8 that the 1926 team's record was 5–2 overall. That suggests that the Westminster game was ultimately not forfeited and Central's 1926 record of 5–2 overall and 5–1 in conference play; see . Jweiss11 (talk) 18:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I had in mind vacated wins. See Vacated victory ("The team being punished is officially stripped of its victory, but the opposing team retains its loss—thus, vacated victories are different from forfeits, in which the losing team is given the win."). Cbl62 (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I figured you were thinking of vacated wins. But in neither case, forfeit nor vacation, does the decision just disappear for the opponent of the sanctioned team. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * and Jweiss: So what do we go with here (note that I'm hoping to get this resolved by Tuesday as its a pending GA nom) - do we trust the modern Central Methodist record book, the yearbook from 1927, something else? Do we consider them conf champs per the yearbook? BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

November Articles for creation backlog drive
 Hello Jweiss11:

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Message from XMcan
Sorry, don't know how else to ping you... You were active on James A. Lindsay wiki page and I thought your arguments were quite cogent. I don't know JAL and have only recently heard of him in a podcast, but I think his WIKI page is unfair. I made some attempts to redress but have encountered strong ideological opposition. I was wondering if you'd read my comments, see if they apply, and then join me to see if there is anything we can do to rectify the untruths being propagated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by XMcan (talk • contribs) 22:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

James A. Lindsay
Hi, I recently came across the JAL page and thought it was unfair in its description. After reading the Talk page, I see that you expended a lot of effort making fruitless but what I thought were strong and cogent arguments. I opened a new line of inquiry on the wiki Talk page, and I hope you will join me. There is little hope of prevailing, but I think joining forces will be much more rewarding than arguing solo ;) XMcan (talk) 23:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * XMcan, I have the Lindsay article on my watch list and saw some of the discussion you started earlier before you reached out here. I plan to chime in there later. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for chiming in, JW. It seems that our arguments might be gaining traction. I apologize for the duplicate post above; I'm not sure how that happened. XMcan (talk) 00:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Question about NCAA football team templates
Hi,

I noticed your revision of my edit to Template:Georgia Bulldogs football navbox. Has there been a discussion of whether to include items like what I removed (i.e. games that aren't really part of one team's lore - UGA football doesn't consider that game of much importance which is why I think the Auburn football template is a better place). I see that some templates list losses to other teams and others don't.

Regards, Roswell native (talk) 03:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Roswell native, thanks for giving me a shout here. There's probably been discussion about this somewhere in the archives at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football. If I recall correctly, the current form of these team navboxes was adopted in late 2010, and there was extensive discussion back then. The subjective feelings about those inside a football program, university, or fanbase aren't supposed to be instructive here, and these navboxes aren't intended to be trophy cases, although parts may resemble such. If a non-biography stand-alone article exists and it's about a given program, it should be included in the program's navbox, unless it's an article about a bowl game, as bowl games have their own navboxes, e.g. Template:Georgia Bulldogs bowl game navbox. Whether these points have been explicitly addressed in the archives of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football, or not, I'd be happy a have new discussion about them there if you want to get input from more editors. I know Template:Michigan Wolverines football navbox and Template:Ohio State Buckeyes football navbox both include numerous lost games. Can you list out examples you've seen of games only included in the winning team's navbox? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Cultural Marxism, OED vs. Wikipedia
Apologies for crowding your Talk page ;) In line with our previous deliberations, I made a well-sourced edit to the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory lede and proposed an additional change in the Talk. I hope you will consider chiming in and letting others know if you find merit in these changes. I value your input and clear arguments. XMcan (talk) 22:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

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Wed Dec 6: Hacking Night + job listing
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1989 North Carolina football team
Your comment states you added a reference for the Georgia game. There was no "Georgia" game that season. Jamesleegilbert (talk) 23:06, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I made a typo in the edit summary. I added a reference for the Vanderbilt game. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Note
I think you replied to me instead of Bagumba, just fyi. ~WikiOriginal-9~ ( talk ) 08:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

2023 North Central Cardinals football team
Thank you for adding the opponent links on the above, but changing "first round" to "First Round" etc. is the epitome of gross over-capitalization. The term "first round" is descriptive of this being the first round of the playoffs, and not a proper noun that can or should be capitalized. Cbl62 (talk) 02:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I do realize that the NCAA sometimes capitalizes these non-trademarked phrases (and that some news outlets follow their lead), but we needn't follow these bad examples where we are dealing with something that is so clearly a generic and descriptive phrase. I note that outlets that exercise greater editorial oversight and precision do not capitalize these generic descriptors. E.g., The New York Times ("the first round of the N.C.A.A. Division III playoffs"), Chicago Tribune ("Division III quarterfinals"), The Sporting News ("The FCS championship game enters its quarterfinal round this weekend, leaving only three games left to determine the champion for the 2022 season.") Detroit Free Press ("Division II quarterfinals"), The Baltimore Sun ("NCAA Division II football quarterfinal"), Sports Illustrated ("the second round of the NCAA Division II football playoffs"), Star Tribune ("second round of the NCAA Division II tournament"), The Charlotte Observer ("FCS playoff, Division 2, quarterfinal"), Cleveland Plain Dealer ([https://www.cleveland.com/sports/2019/12/notre-dame-college-falls-in-quarterfinal-round-xx-xx-at-slippery-rock-in-division-ii-playoffs.html "Division II quarterfinal"), Richmond Times-Dispatch ("the second round of the 2022 NCAA Division III football playoffs"), Reading Eagle (NCAA Division II football quarterfinal"). Cbl62 (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

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1882 Michigan Wolverines football team
I have been considering put the above up for AfD. it's one of my creations from way back in 2010 and one that you've worked on as well. I created it based on the Bentley Library page. However, they never played an intercollegiate game, and my searches don't up anything, let alone something approaching WP:SIGCOV. What do you think? Do you know if Michigan counts this season as part of its numbered "Team 144" etc. calculations? Cbl62 (talk) 15:28, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1882 is not counted in the team numbering. If it was, this would be "Team 145" in 2023. Perhaps the 1882 article can be merged into 1883 Michigan Wolverines football team? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Rudy Lavik additions
Please advise me what specific steps I can take in order that you find my edits acceptable.Sfgmariners (talk) 23:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Sfgmariners, thanks for the message. I restored some of what you were trying to add with some cleanup and added some other content as well. A few key things that want to do (and not do) when editing:


 * 1) Use inline citations for your sources employing ref tags; e.g. , see Citing sources.
 * 2) Make use of sections headings to break up content; see MOS:HEAD.
 * 3) Section headings should use sentence case, not title case; e.g. "Early life" not "Early Life"
 * 4) Do not embed external links in the body of articles.
 * 5) Avoid lists in the body of article, like what you did with Lavik's degrees. Instead weave these into the prose of the article.
 * 6) Make sure everything you add is supported by a reliable source with a proper citation; see Reliable sources.

Let me know if you have any questions. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:10, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Henry Carr
I attended my grandfather’s Kinesiology of Exercise class and i obtained Henry Carr’s autograph. Later my grandfather bought a program from the 1964 Tokyo Olympics. I have the autograph, the program, and the personal memory. How do i get the information back into the article.

And, i’m glad you have a good, clean, long term hobby, but please consider what impact your decisions have on others. 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Personal memories and unpublished documents are not suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. But if the '64 Olympics program discusses the relationship between Lavik and Carr, that could be used as a source for the article. I understand your experience here with me rolling back your edits has been frustrating. But my responsibility as a veteran Wikipedia editor is to uphold the core principles of this project over the wishes of the family of an article's subject. That being said, with your help in identifying a few key sources from Arizona newspapers, I think we've greatly improved and expanded the article over the past couple days. And you can continue to improve it. I would just recommend that you log in and edit under an account rather an anonymously, and keep in mind some of the fundamentals I laid out above. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Colorado College
The college is located in Colorado Springs not Golden. 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 15:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the catch. Yep, I confused the location of Colorado College with that of Colorado Mines. I made the correction. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

ASU Enrollment
Significantly, the student enrollment grew by 1500% between 1933 and 1963, during Rudy’s faculty service! 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 16:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Josh Cody and Knute Rockne
Yes, the bio of Josh Cody is very detailed. Rudy Lavik was also born in 1892, but lived significantly longer than Cody. Lavik preached fitness during his “retired” years, but that has been edited out now. I studied Knute Rockne’s wikipage and used it as a model to follow. Knute Rockne was also lost in the ether. 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * As a note, I did read a little bit on how user awards work but my search was not an in depth one. Legitimate apologies if this wasn't the way to show appreciation, but you absolutely deserve appreciation for all you do despite the resistance from other contributors unfamiliar with conventions (like myself). Come again soon! Dionysius Miller (talk) 18:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You did it correctly. Thanks for the recognition. And keep up the good editing. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Restoring Deleted Facts
In 1917, as a tackle for Springfield playing Rutgers, Lavik competed across the scrimmage line against Paul Robeson. (1)

In July 1927 Lavik attended a coaches clinic in Logan, UT led by Notre Dame coach (and famous Norwegian-American), Knute Rockne.(2) In the summer of 1933, both Lavik and Grady Gammage, the Flagstaff college President, moved to Arizona State Teachers College at Tempe. The student enrollment that year was 875 students. When Lavik retired in 1963 enrollment had grown to 13,765 students and the college had been officially renamed Arizona State University. Lavik coached Bill Kajikawa, who was hired by the college in 1937 even before he graduated. Kajikawa went on to coach football, basketball, and baseball at ASU for decades (his employment only interrupted by his service in the 442nd during WWII). In 1937, Lavik coached Emerson Harvey, the first African American football player at Tempe. Lavik taught Henry Carr, world-record sprinter and winner of the 200 Meter race at the 1964 Tokyo Olympics. Lavik, while in his 70’s, pitched batting practice for the outstanding ASU baseball teams of the 1960’s. (3)

Lavik jogged in the first three events of the “Run for Your Life” sponsored by the Phoenix YMCA in 1966, 1967, and 1968. He helped host Air Force Lt. Col. Dr. Kenneth H. Cooper, author of the best seller Aerobics (A New Approach to Exercise) on a visit to Arizona. (4)

The Rudy and Charlotte Lavik Memorial Scholarship was established at ASU’s Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College.

Notes: 1 Tempe Daily News October 3, 1979 Obituary by Howard Pyle 2 The Salt Lake Tribune July 10, 1927 page 13. 3 “Sore-Armed? Take a Tip from 66-Year Old Hurler” Collegiate Baseball Digest April 25, 1958 4 “Rudy Lavik Remarkable” Arizona Republic June 4, 1967 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 19:17, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Retrieving News Articles
Is there a method of converting my news clippings into retrieved articles? Some publications have never been digitized and made publicly available. Does that make the stories unacceptable? 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 16:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sources that are otherwise reliable are still acceptable even if they were never digited and put online. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Donn Kinzle
Thank you for retrieving the 1949 story on the change of Athletic Director at Arizona State. I was previously unfamiliar with Mr. Kinzle. 2601:603:5380:2820:FC69:6595:D7C4:E961 (talk) 16:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Rosy Ryan
Ryan’s wikipedia page clearly states that Ryan attended Holy Cross. Just sayin’ 2601:603:5380:2820:B99D:577D:C274:1E6A (talk) 16:44, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ryan clearly attended Holy Cross and played baseball there. But did he play football there? There's no mention of a Ryan playing in either the 1917 or 1919 Holy Cross vs. Springfield games in which Lavik played; see https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-sun-1917-springfield-hc/74230890/ and https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-boston-globe-fumble-by-springfield-g/98135487/. The Holy Cross Football Fact Book (page 118) lists no Ryan as a letterwinner for either of those years. The 1972 Arizona Republic article states that Ryan was a member of a the Holy Cross team that played against Lavik. Was Ryan a non-letterwinning reserve that never saw game action? Possibly. But probably not a relevant detail to include the bio article about Lavik. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)