User talk:Kafka Liz/Archive 3

Art of Beauty
This article is not intended as a redirect or spam anymore than Sephora. Art of Beauty is an important corporation in the profesional beauty industry, creating many innovations and holding pattents, thus making in worthy of inclussion in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leoreyzis (talk • contribs) 22:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Morgan library
Thanks Liz, I'll try to get over there...Modernist (talk) 03:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Bulgarian Men's High School of Thessaloniki
Care to rub a pumice over this article? I know how you appreciate the Slavic culture. I really don't think the bold bits at the beginning ought to be linked. What do you think? Aramgar (talk) 03:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll try to check it out later today... The bold bits shouldn't be linked per WP:MOS (see second bullet) . In return, I'm sending you a link on the House of the Cryptoporticus: can you please give it a look, bearing in mind our conversation about Pompeian corpses? Kafka Liz (talk) 11:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. Mumyalar. Can I touch them? Aramgar (talk) 11:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Long time no talk
How is all. Nice to see you around again. Ceoil (talk) 01:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought about you while eating a five-way today. Having had chili for lunch, perhaps I should have some cod for supper? ;) Lithoderm 23:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Would that there were someplace near the State House that I could get a three-way... My favourite when I'm in the region is Dixie Chili, but I usually wind up at Skyline... The closest one is somewhere north of Columbus. ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 23:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Heads up
Thanks for the heads up Liz...That'll be a busy day...Modernist (talk) 13:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See, it not all just for nothing! Not likely to attract much vandelists, I expect. Ceoil (talk) 23:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You obviously live in a far more medicated reality than me. Thats fine, I'm pragmatic. Ceoil (talk) 00:21, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes well, fair enough, I suppose I was chancing my arm there a small bit there. But, justforget everyting I said; Liz, all will be just fine and great on main page day, Jimbo himself will likely pop by to pat you on the back, your auld school teachers too. Santy is non committal at present, but we are working on that, trying to find an offer he can't refuse. Ceoil (talk) 00:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * On a side issue, I think its about time Lucy stepped up. What do you reckon? Happy? Ceoil (talk) 00:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... I'd like a few more days with it. I think there are some sections that are still a bit confusing to the average reader. They are relatively clear to you, me and Ottava because we've all done a lot of reading, but some parts I don't think are quite clear enough. Also... are you proposing that we take it to FAC immediately, or GA, or another peer review? Just so I know where we're going with it. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:59, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If needs more work on c-e thats ok, not my strong point to say the least, so I'll trust your judgement on that. I meant FAC at this stage...but maybe I'm rash! We all have a lot invested in the page, so I dont want to jump to gun, at all. Ceoil (talk) 01:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)Ah, don't be silly: you're an excellent content creator and copyeditor (certian spelling issues aside ;)). In any case, I'll try to step up the pace a bit. I do think it's very nearly there; it's just a couple of sections I think could be clearer. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, and if you'd like to get input from GA or 2nd PR, well I said the exact same to Ottava on sunday night. But by now I just want to find another page to worry about! I get very nervous pre FAC, and the suspence gets me. Ceoil (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict and switching off the wise-ass) Fair enough. I think at this point the advice/comments we get at FAC will suffice. Give me until Saturday (at the latest - hopefully sooner!) to straighten a couple of things out, and we're good to go. Deal? Kafka Liz (talk) 01:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Deal. You drive a hard bargin. Ceoil (talk) 01:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, you don't know the half of it, mate. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Why worry
In my mind, the worst is that you will boiled in oil and reverted by idiot IPs for ever with the summary "ahh too soon for ever"; in other words, go on. Ceoil (talk) 01:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * But you have a lot of FAC experience (todays FA page?) so, just....best. Ceoil (talk) 01:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No wait; if you want to c/e further; then wait. No way would I want you to nom something you think could be better. Ceoil (talk) 01:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are saying you want to go for a 2nd PR, thats fine. Lets do that so, this is very much your article so, yep. Do you want me to lead or would you prefer to take over? Either is grand with me, and I suspect with Ottova. Liz, you are free here, but we will be watching your back so dont worry too much. Ceoil (talk) 02:00, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No, wait until you are happy. Dont rush until you are comfortable, and however time that takes, thats the time it takes. End of story. Ceoil (talk) 02:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Litho
It happens more often than you'd think, Lith is a student and so probably walked away from a public computer either forgetting to log off, or his password was cached. No big deal really. Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I know. I just hoped he wasn't taking some extreme action to force himself back to his studies. Wikibreak enforced by block, as it were. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope he is ok, and contacts us...its worrisome...Modernist (talk) 01:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I know he has a couple of proxy accounts, but I thought I'd drop him a line just to be on the safe side. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good move. But, even, so what if it was a 'wikicide' to get back to studies, it would be understandable, and an editor with his ability could ride that easily. There would be more than enough would want him back. Its a wait and see I suppose. Ceoil (talk) 01:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I can see that. I guess I just wanted to show some support, even supposing he did choose this path deliberately. Being blocked feels pretty shitty, in my experience, and it's good to know you have have friends standing by. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, friends needed in these situations for sure. Been there done that, a few times, and it is crummy alright. Ceoil (talk) 02:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Lucy
With my recent check, it seems that everything is ready to go. I would look back at the MoS to see if the individual subsection notes about wikisource are appropriate. I have a feeling that they belong at the bottom. There is also a problem with having a main link to the two two poems and then a wikisource note. I can go on wikisource and create a centry "Lucy poems" page that links to each so there is one note at the bottom. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I did just that. I think it is ready for FAC. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)Yes, I think it's ready too. There are a couple of citation tags that need attention - I'm not sure whether you or Ceoil (or someone else entirely) added these lines, but it would be great if one of you could check up on them. I don't know what the MoS protocol for wikisource materials is off the top of my head, but the idea of creating a central entry at Commons is excellent.


 * Also, I meant to thank you for having my back at FAC. I got sidetracked before I could respond, and it skipped my mind entirely. I really do appreciate your help. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:50, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And thank you for fixing up the Commons links! Kafka Liz (talk) 00:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Which citation tags need help? I removed the entry that had the "fact" template. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's the Frank Parson quote in the Critical Assessment section. I see the source listed in the Bibliography, but I don't have a page number for the quote, and I don't have easy access to this particular publication. Also, it's not crucial, but who is Frank Parson? I couldn't find any information on him. Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 16:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Sivas icin
Biraz once yanimda oturan bir ingiliz wikipedia dan bu yaziyi okudu sirf bu nedenle uye oldum ve o kismi cikrtmak istedim.Sivasi tantan bir yaziya o parcayi neden koymek istoyorsunuz gercekten anlamiyorum. herkesin bilemsi gereken bir olay oldugunu dusunmuyorum en azindan yabancilar bilmesi bize hic bir kazandirmayacaktir. Bu kisim inan onlar icin hic bir anlam ifade etmiyor fikrinizi sunmak istiyorsaniz ozel bir topic olusturun ve oraya yazin lutfen Bu yaptiginiz Sivas' a zarar verecek nitelikte bir yazidir rica ediyorum boyle biligiler sunmayalim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Namir58 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Merhaba Namir58. Çok az Türkçe biliyorum -- I know only a little Turkish, and I do not understand very much of what you have written here -- I am sorry. Can you explain to me in English? On the English wikipedia, we do not usually remove large sections from articles. If we do, then we explain our reasons to the other editors. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

for Sivas
Dear Kafka,             First, i am really sorry i thought you are from Turkey even Sivas. what i really wanted to say was that your information about Sivas is generally so good and successful but I can not say rhe same thing for the paragraph which starts with modern. This section does not help neither Sivas nor Turkey. The information may be true but every truth cant be said everywhere. If you want to do something for Sivas please remove this part. Why I deleted the paragraph,because an English student was searching something about Sivas just near me. He saw the definition which i mentioned above and suddenly his face changed. of corse I asked him what happened, he said he would like to go to Sivas for a research project about the balikli cermik but he has decided to stay at the Uk and study from here. I hope you ll now understand me better. I will be around here and if there is something to do for Sivas or Turkey it is a pleasure to contribute to your works. Thanks anyway.. By the way i used mymobile phone to write this response without looking at what i have written so that any questions or misunderstood point please just let me know bye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Namir58 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Merhaba, Namir58. I am sorry to take so long to reply to you. I don't know if you are still around. I spent a week in Sivas in 2007, and it is one of my favourite cities in Turkey. Somewhere I have pictures of the beautiful Seljuk architecture there; I will try to upload them and add them to the article. This English student was making a mistake when he (or she) decided not to visit, and I am very sorry to hear about this. I do understand why you wanted to remove the information about the Sivas Madımak Olayı - but I still think that the article needs to have this information. It was a very tragic event, but it is also historically important, and I think it is better to write the truth and acknowledge it than to remain silent. I think that a similar example can be found in our article on Birmingham, Alabama, which talks about the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. This was an event in the 1960s when a Black/African American church was bombed, and four young girls were killed.


 * Perhaps we can work together to write more about the history, people, and architecture of Sivas so that the Madımak tragedy does not dominate the "Modern" section so much? It is an important event, but it is not the most important thing about this beautiful city, and people from outside Turkey should know this. Please let me know what you think. İyi akşamlar, Kafka Liz (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There seems to be far too much detail about this incident for a general article, especially since the event has its own article. Meowy  01:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Ideally, I would like to write a good, well-rounded article that covers more aspects of the city's history. In the meantime, though, I think that the massacre - although significant - is perhaps dominating the article more than necessary. I'll give it a trim; let me know what you think. Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 02:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you cut a wee bit too much (e.g., why they were demonstrating need to be mentioned). I've rewritten your trimmed version a bit, adding a bit more. If you think something more (or something less) is neeeded, then have another go yourself. BTW, the hotel wasn't burnt down, just burned to a shell. I was actually in Sivas a couple of weeks after the event and saw the burned-out hotel - but at the time I didn't know what had happened and so didn't take any pictures. When I was last in Sivas the building had been repared and it was being used as offices. What did you do in Sivas for a week? Meowy  19:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I think your revision is fine. I took my cue in trimming from the Birmingham, Alabama article I mentioned above, but in retrospect I think you're right. When I was in Sivas, there was a kebab restaurant on the ground level, and a sign reading "Otel Madımak" (see the picture I took at the Sivas massacre article); I don't know what changes have taken place since then. I was in Sivas in 2007 and spent some time exploring the city, focussing primarily on the well-known Seljuk monuments there, but also visiting bookstores and searching for various türbes. I confess that I've forgotten many of the names of the sites we visited there - I'd have to check my travel journal. I remember looking for and not finding the türbe of the Qadi of Sivas. We also visited Tokat, where we spent considerable effort looking for a 19th century Armenian church, but to no avail. We did find some Armenian tombstones on our journeys, though; I can upload my pictures of them if you are interested.
 * Thanks also for fixing the Gorey article link; I'm not sure I would have remembered to double-check the link at the article! Warm regards, Kafka Liz (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahh, so it's back to being a hotel again? (I'm not sure I'd want to stay there though; I'd be wondering if someone had died in the room I was in, and would be tempted to start scraping at the walls to ssee if the soot-blackened original surface is still there!) I'm trying to remember when I last saw it, might have been 2005 - it was used as offices back then, no lokanta, and there was no hotel sign on the building. I remember seeing that türbe (probably was it), it's a big, squat, not very attactive structure made of brick - actually looks a bit Roman in style - and sunk into the ground because the surrounding street level has got higher as the centuries have passed. I don't think there is a surviving Armenian church in Tokat (though I've not been to Tokat). I've seen the Armenian gravestones in Sivas if you are meaning the ones in the medresse/museum garden, but if they are elsewhere then I'd be interested in seeing them. Thanks. Meowy 01:25, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Apparently it's caused a bit of controversy, as many people would like to see the site turned into a shrine. We didn't want to stay there either; it would have seemed a bit gruesome. I'm pretty sure I know the türbe you mean, though I forget whose it was... I knew much less of the language and history then than I do now (although I still don't know as much as I would like of either). Yes, I have pictures from the Sivas museum garden, but also some from... Samsun, if I recall correctly. I'm not sure it was a tombstone (I can't read Armenian, unfortunately), but it had an amazing replica of a church on it. I'll try to dig it up, if you aren't familiar with it. :)
 * I think I know what you might be refering to in Samsun! Is it this - http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/image/35667029 If you have more photos of it at different angles, then I'll be purring! Meowy 01:47, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, Dick Osseman has the best pictures! This is similar, but I'm not certain it's the same... I thought I remembered something in higher relief and more along the lines of the traditional square cross shape (not sure what the technical term for this is). Let me see if I can't find my pix. The problem is that it may take a few days, as it's in my old computer, which still works but is living in a storage unit. I made a point of taking pictures of non-Ottoman inscriptions while I was there, as I thought they were interesting. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I visited Katsamonu, Sinope, Samsun, Amasya, Tokat, Zile, Niksar and some other places (usually small village day trips) on this trip. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * All places I'v never been to :( I know Samsun was a wealthy, nouveau-riche place in the 19th-century so its Greeks and Armenians may well have had elaborate tombstones. Even if your pic doesn't show the same object as the Osseman picture, I'd still be interested (and maybe still purrr). Whenever you have the time. Good decision about recording the inscriptions - they are the things that tend to get destroyed or vandalised. Meowy 02:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you thank you thank you Liz! The one of the church relief deserves the deepest longest purrr. Keep it quiet (maybe you should change the photo description to just "church" - Turkish museums generally don't keep artifacts with the "A" word), it isn't "Byzantine period" obviously, it is late-19th century or early 20th-century and it depicts this building http://www.virtualani.org/tigranhonents/ Meowy 01:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My pleasure; it's great to find other folks who are interested. :) I considered adding a citation for the church description, but I wasn't quite sure how. Thank you for the link showing the actual church! (Aramgar may have known which church it was, but I didn't). Anyway, I'll change the description if you think it's best; no point in stirring up unnecessary drama. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse
Mattisse has some concerns about the language of the Lucy article. I think you should discuss with them directly on how to clean up some of the language that they are having problems with. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Rest
Sounds like a plan. Just forget about it for a day or two or three, its just not worth getting upset or stressed about. Maybe people will calm down. Ceoil (talk) 01:01, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My experience there is its a painful drawn out process. Its a good idea to stay on the case but stay calm, overall think positively and periodically forget about it....and do some other things..Modernist (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Modernist. That was pretty much what I was thinking, but after all the work we've put in, it can be hard to disengage. Also, I didn't want Ceoil and Ottava to think that I was running out on them when things got tough. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:35, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are gonna be involved there for a long time to come...and you have all done a lot of good work, probably a light will appear down the road apiece...Modernist (talk) 01:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you again... I really do appreciate your support. Friendly words go a long way. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 01:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Go to the Lucy FAC page a click 'what links here'. We've been nuked, and not one reviewer read past the lead (all admitted this). I think we have responded to near all suggestions and prefernces; oh well. Ceoil (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Its not trancluded to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates anymore! ;( Hope you had a good enough night off anyway. Ceoil (talk) 23:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * How to proceed? I'm not too sure; it seems sudden and bizzar; there were no significant outstanding suggestions left on the page. Dunno, dissapointing. Ceoil (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It was a pile on. Similar often happens at RFA; if the first object is heavy, well your pretty sunk. Still, I think we have a pretty good article that we can be proud of. Ceoil (talk) 23:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Tough break, you did a fine job, be proud..and you both didn't deserve the pile on...and bad faith...Modernist (talk) 23:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I feared as much when I saw that first oppose. I think there may have been some other factors at work as well, but... so it goes. Thank you, guys.... I do think it's still a pretty decent article, even if it isn't an FA. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just restart it and if anyone bothers to oppose in that way take them directly to ANI. There were over 10 people that stated that Fowler's oppose was incivil. The two following opposes had no real oppose basis either. So, point violations all the way around. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I think Ceoil and I (and possibly Modernist and the elusive Birchcliff) will kick it around a bit more first. We'll see how it goes. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking ahead
Dear Kafka Liz and Ceoil, I'm sorry to hear that they archived the FAC and surprised that it happened so soon. I'd like to say though that there wasn't any conscious or bad-faith "pile on." I made my initial comments because the article brought back memories of my high-school years, and I was genuinely looking forward to reading it. It is true that initially I didn't read past the lead, in part because I was disappointed. However, later on I did, and read the poems themselves, in three different versions: in my 1980s copy of Helen Gardner's New Oxford Book of English Verse, in my 1927 first edition of Arthur Quiller-Couch's Oxford Book of English Verse, and finally (lovingly and carefully) in my 1861 first edition of Palgrave's Golden Treasury. I noticed, for example, subtle differences in spelling and punctuation. The older the edition, the more contractions it had of the sort, "travell'd," and "she I cherish'd turn'd her wheel." (Which makes you wonder if people, at least when reading poetry, were still pronouncing the "-ed" (as in "... throned monarch better than his crown ...") and had to be told not to.) I noticed too that in the Golden Treasury there were only four poems (the first was missing). That's, in part, why I suggested in my second set of comments that you remove "1850," since by 1861 the group of poems had not become fixed. (And Palgrave, Professor of Poetry at Oxford, was as Victorian as they came&mdash;his birth preceded and his death followed by Victoria's.) I say all this by way of explaining that my motivations were not malicious at any time.

It is true that once I saw the peremptory and dismissive first reply from Ottavo Rima, I did get irritated. And the irritation mounted as he continued in that vein. (Such as, informing me about the beginning and end of the Victorian age ("1836 to 1901"), which in any case he got wrong.) I do think that OR's combative comments may have made people less sympathetic. (They were certainly mentioned in the third "oppose.") The combativeness was especially odd since right at the end he seemed to be distancing himself from the article by suggesting that he was there only as a reviewer (even supplying a "diff" for his last edit!?).

I know that you must feel disheartened; however, let me say that the best thing to do is to incorporate the various reviewers' comments and work on the article a little more (say a month) and resubmit. I personally don't see any value in rushing things (unless you like working under pressure.)  I see this all the time in academics, where people either get disheartened all too easily or resubmit on auto-pilot without substantive changes. You will probably get most of the essential work done in a week or so, but then let the article sit on the back burner. Begin to work on something else and visit the article every now and then. You'll be surprised that you'll find things that you'll want to change.

As for the lead, it is important. It is not only what most people read first, but also what they judge in order to decide whether or not to continue. Besides it shows that the authors themselves have understood the contents at a higher level. Another thing to remember is that an encyclopedia article should be intelligible to an average educated reader. Consequently, most sentences (although not all) should be evaluated for such intelligibility. In the coming days, I will leave more detailed comments about the rest of the article on the article's talk page. Meanwhile congratulations both on submitting the article and on being out there on the front lines. That (in my book) is a bigger achievement than getting the FA badge. Regards, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  10:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (I replied to Fowler on his/her talk). Liz, I think this is probably good advice; I'd like to plug away for another few weeks and see how far we get. Ceoil (talk) 20:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good choice...Don't let it go, and don't give up...I think in time the article will be passed...Modernist (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Fowler&fowler, Thank you for taking the time to write this encouraging note. I didn't think your comments on the article were malicious. They seemed rather harsh and discouraging when I first read them, but sometimes FAC goes that way. My thoughts at the time were to take a day to digest what you'd written and get a little distance before working on your questions and suggestions. Then came the argument between you and Ottava, which was extremely off-putting. I would rather not comment on that except to say that I think it certainly did not help matters. Please understand that I am not blaming you for what happened. I had hoped that with all of us focussing on improving the article, the argument would quickly be set aside or forgotten.

In any case, we'll continue to work on the article and probably bring it back to FAC at some point. We'll have a better article, with or without the star, and that is really what counts. Your comments and suggestions are welcome: it's good to have an outside perspective and detailed points to respond to. Regards, Kafka Liz (talk) 01:29, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I should have been more sensitive, especially since I was the first reviewer. Same with the argument.  I need to learn to keep my cool.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  08:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Ping
The jist: we can do this! Sorry if that make me seem like some life force guru but all this bullshit we have had makes me more determined. This might cheer you up.. Ceoil (talk) 15:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * These people really don't know who they're dealing with... :) Kafka Liz (talk) 16:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Did Steve tell you to post that per chance? Hmm, my mother flippin' nemises, Steve. Ceoil (talk) 16:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to distill the feedback from the FAC here. with all the irrelevant stuff taken out. Feel free to edit. Ceoil (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Will do. Thanks for the heads up. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Userbox
I stole your "This user has been on Wikipedia for..." userbox. I hope you don't mind. I just found it quite good. (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 17:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mind at all; it's something of a compliment! It's based on this template; I just tweaked the colours and added an image more to my liking. I'm quite pleased that you liked it, actually. :)  If you don't mind my asking, are you reading the Dan Simmons book, or just interested in Wilkie Collins? Kafka Liz (talk) 22:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'm reading it. I guess my recent contributions clued you into that. :)  It has kept my interest thus far, although I'm not crazy about it.  I didn't even know about Collins until I started reading this.  I'm embarrassed to admit that the only reason I even picked this up is because my brother has the same name. (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 14:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Herself
I'm back on the job now, though my windows are still all boarded up. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

About vandalising of my sources
you destroy reliable sources in Attila the Hun, Aslan and other pages. i think its not funny.--Huckelbarry (talk) 01:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Your sources are falsified. The book in question does not refer to Attila the Hun as a Khagan. The sources you cite may be reliable in their own right, but they do not support your changes. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The other Lucy love you too
Thanks specifically for your pics, and your trip the the library! --Moni3 (talk) 20:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note! I enjoyed the trip to the museum immensely, especially the amused looks we got when we asked if it was ok to take pictures. Congratulations on the article! Kafka Liz (talk) 01:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Finally, good news
Today's featured article/April 10, 2009. Ceoil (talk) 22:26, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Well, its good for the team. How is all? I'm still recovering from Paddy's day. We take him and his day srsly here, its kind of like a duty. Dont start me with duty; I'm too old for this shit; God be with the days when hangovers only lasted a day. Still, Patrick brought christanity to us celts, thats got to be worth celebrating. I suppose. Ceoil (talk) 00:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Irish Americans usually have a overly sentimental twist on things, and there is too much public display there for my taste. Re Lucy I think we are almost there, though I dont want to put a foot forward until both Awadewit and folwer are happy enough. Awadewit seems to have gone fairly through the page, and responed to half the responces, so I'm happy to until wait is ready to strike the rest, considering the quality of the comments and requests. Fowler is moving through it in fine detail, and I want to give him time and space. Ottava I'm more worried about. We had a major, nasty, bust up in the last week; but I still think us 3 can take this through, regardless of any hard feelings. Overall, dont want to rush this one. Wait and see. Ceoil (talk) 00:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Liz, actually I had a hard day - my cat died today...She was 16 1/2. I'll be okay in a day or two...Modernist (talk) 01:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help with Jonathan Strange
You suggested that we explain why Strange is surrounded by "Eternal Night" at the FAC. I'm afraid I don't remember exactly - I know it happens as a result of his attempt to summon fairies and whatnot in Venice, but the details escape me. Do you remember the details? Awadewit (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To be perfectly honest, I'd need to re-read that bit, but I think that the summary is clear enough as is: Strange winds up in the Darkness as a result of his attempts to rescue Arabella. I meant that we ought to explain how Norrell winds up there with him. Perhaps just mentioning that Strange brings the Eternal Night with him when he returns to Norrell, who thereupon finds himself similarly trapped, since further explanation would, I think, be too much detail. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Now reads: Strange, bringing "Eternal Night" with him, asks Norrell to help him undo Arabella's enchantment by summoning John Uskglass. Awadewit (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Perfect. Excellent work, and I'm pleased to have been able to help, even in a small way. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 00:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Whaat
I left it go at the time, but please..."My windows are still all boarded up". There is a good back story here, I reckon. Spill - gossip pls. Ceoil (talk) 18:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not as interesting as it sounds. A couple of weeks ago, I came home from a weekend away to find two of my front windows smashed, broken glass everywhere, a terrified cat, and a fun little shadow of smoke damage across my ceiling. Seems there had been a fire Friday night in the adjoining apartment building, and the building management hadn't bothered to get in touch with any of the owners. Quite the surprise to come home to, although it could have been much, much worse. The apartment next door was completely totalled, the entire top floor has smoke damage and kicked-in doors, and the lower apartments have water damage too. They just finally replaced the windows yesterday. In the meantime, I got to pretend that my living room was part of an episode of The Wire. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
kelapstick (talk) 23:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Eastover
Thank you Liz...happy both of them too. Sorry to read about your windows getting busted up ..hopefully no permanent damage.Modernist (talk) 21:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's all pretty much fixed now, though I still turn up the stray fragment of glass. The smell's gone, and I was able to get most of the soot off the ceiling, so it's all good. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Query
I have left a comment on your DYK nomination here. — Ed 17  (Talk /  Contribs)  19:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Responded there. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 01:10, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Giovio
For what it's worth, many pages of that Haskell book are viewable in Google Books (including most of the pages about Giovio). --Orlady (talk) 15:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's an excellent find, not least because he's read (and says he relies heavily on) an unpublished study I've been trying to get ahold of. Thanks again, Kafka Liz (talk) 01:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

thanks for the question
Hi,

Thanks for the question on my talk page. I haven't decided whether I'll retire permanently. Am currently in deep semi-retirement. I may quit permanently, or may return after a few months. Thanks for the note, though! Ling.Nut.Public (talk) 22:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Goreybooks covers
Spam?

Is this some sort of personal grudge?

If you can find this information anywhere else on the web I withdraw my addition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.95.124 (talk) 16:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know if you are watching this page and will see this reply, but you are right: I made a mistake in assuming the link was spam. When I clicked on it initially, I got a 404, and just assumed it was spam given the domain. This is actually an interesting and useful addition; I have many of these covers in my personal collection, and it's nice to see a collection of them presented this way. Please accept my apologies for being overhasty, Kafka Liz (talk) 01:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It was 404ing because the url was typed wrong, it had a "/" at the end of "htm". Meowy 19:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Herself
I'm thinking GAN might be the next step for this. I'll wait a day or so before nominating, but if it goes ahead can you let Ottava know (we're not speaking, see). Ceoil (talk) 17:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, keep me posted. I should be around this weekend. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link; imagine my surprise to find a new good Sonic Youth tune; I had been under the impression they gave up on tunes years ago; har. Re Lucy; I had hoped Mattisse could give a GA review, but she is now subject to an arb case and under pressure from every direction, so scratch that. I dont know, feel bad for her; sometimes it seems like this website eats it young. Its enough to make one turn to this auld commie. Ceoil (talk) 13:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know Mattisse very well (I've only really run into her the one time at Lucy), but I'm very sorry to hear about this. I know she does a lot of good work... :\ Kafka Liz (talk) 23:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Elâzığ
Can you stop contaminating the information about my city elazig with your old armenian stuff we live in 21st century not the past if you have something to add then added to the history section i wont touch that bit ok i hope you understand. Thank you. (Mystery.sin (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC))
 * Hi there. I'm going to assume that your use of the term "contaminate" in this context is due to a misunderstanding of the term's use in English rather than to a desire to slur Armenians. It is possible that there is some undue weight being given to the town's historical Armenian community, but that does not justify your wholesale removal of information and sources. I am restoring the deleted information, minus one or two sections that were tagged over a year ago as as requiring citations. If you persist in your actions, I will ask those involved at the Geopolitical ethnic and religious conflicts noticeboard for further opinions. Teşekkürler, Kafka Liz (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Dont worry i wasnt sluring armenians fragile dude im talking about the reality here the armenian stuff in elazig is dead and buried meaning its in the past its history so type it in the history section or something for example in the "Geography and climate" you have typed """The Armenians called this valley "Vosgetashd" which means "Golden Plain.""" This is excess info nobody is interested in this ps. the original geography and climate section was taken from this site http://tripatlas.com/Elaz%C4%B1%C4%9F so im suggesting keeping it original like in that site and another thing notable native section you have listed people from 1098 century this is just excess info what im suggesting is listing the current notable people from elazig we dont need to go back to 1098 or 1800 century cause if do the list will go for ever we have to list all the notable people from ottoman era and stuff. Thank you. (Mystery.sin (talk) 00:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC))


 * Arkadaşım, since the historical settlement Harput redirects to Elâzığ, it is entirely appropriate to deal with the history in this article. As you probably know, the town has been an important place for a very long time. You may not be interested in history, but other readers are. We are writing an encyclopedia article and so need to cover all aspects of the town. In any event, it is customary on Wikipedia to list "Notable natives", of any age, in articles on the places where they were born or were prominent. The Armenians you are so keen to remove are just as much natives of the city as you. Replacing their names with redlinks of individuals not notable enough to have their own articles is inappropriate. The list will hardly "go on forever" if we rely on notability as a rule of thumb.


 * One other point: I am neither fragile nor a dude. Please pardon me if I have misconstrued your meaning; your distaste for punctuation can make following your remarks a bit difficult. Teşekkürler, Kafka Liz (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Elazig should not interest you because its neither your town or neither you live in it. You dont know anything about elazig your just a book worm reading few armenian things here and there and then you come act like an expert, and those people that you call not noble enought are more known than few armenians who are dead and buried and dont worry about the redlinks, they could easily be turned into blue. I also see that you have gone to your old mode and destroyed the page about elazig with your people from 1098 or 1800 century again and your so unconstructive and annoying that you've even listed armenians who are not even from elazig your basically destroying the page. Im trying to make the page better and make elazig more known and show what elazig is, while all you do is destroy it with your one way thinking selfishness. I dont know whats your problem is but just get over the past and come back to the 21st century grandma. Much love (Mystery.sin (talk) 15:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC))
 * A book worm? Guilty as charged, yavrum, guilty as charged. Oh my. :D Kafka Liz (talk) 23:12, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "There's more to life than books, you know..." Aramgar (talk) 02:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ¿Qué? Kafka Liz (talk) 02:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Requests_for_adminship/BQZip01_4
Response on the page for you. Please realize that I just now realized where this information came from. — BQZip01 — talk 04:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Replied there. Perhaps we are looking at different diffs? Kafka Liz (talk) 11:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Non est disputandum
Oriens aut occidens? Aramgar (talk) 01:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Enjoyable remix, though its early promise peters out a bit. "Made a happy man very old" - nice one. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Note from Orkhan ankara
Sultanate of Rum was part of the Great Seljuk... Wikipedia is not your tale book. I m istanbul university history student if you don't this, I will start a campain about that on facebook —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orkhan ankara (talk • contribs) 17:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Orkhan ankara. The problem is that the flags are not attested in any reliable sources. There is no evidence that Great Seljuks or the Seljuks of Rum used it.The arguments against their inclusion have been presented on the relevant talkpage, and I see from your talkpage that you have been invited to participate in the discussion several times, , . Please come to relevant talkpage and explain your views. There is no need for threats. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you expert about Turkish history? Seljuk Rum was inside of Great Seljuk after the Mongol attacks Great Seljuk collapsed in iran but Anatolia Seljuk or Sultanate of Rum continued... thats it .. Sultanate of Rum is not independence from Great Seljuk. it was part of Great Seljuk Like Turkey and Ottoman Empire —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orkhan ankara (talk • contribs) 13:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Seljuk Rum was inside of Great Seljuk after the Mongol attacks Great Seljuk collapsed in iran but Anatolia Seljuk or Sultanate of Rum continued... thats it .. Sultanate of Rum is not independence from Great Seljuk. it was part of Great Seljuk Like Turkey and Ottoman Empire


 * Hi Orkhan ankara. I am not an expert on Turkish history, but I have read enough to know that your statements are not quite accurate. The Seljuk Sultanate of Rum was one of four successor states to the Great Seljuk empire, as you will see if you read the relevant section of the article. Furthermore, the flags you you keep adding are completely unattested and unhistorical, as multiple editors have pointed out. Wikipedia requires that the information we add be cited to reliable sources, and without such, these flags ought not be added. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Welcome
All righ, then. Crème brûlée and pop rocks for all! Kafka Liz (talk) 23:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you OK? I fear Ceoil has taken over your account. (You're supposed to be babysitting!) A Mere Messenger of His Majesty, Outriggr (talk) 02:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * No. Kafka Liz (talk) 17:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Lorelei
I'm going to make the leap of faith that you already know the song, but this cratchy, broken down and damaged version (recorded on a €15 amp and a mic that came, with the funny hat, free with a christmas cracker) of one of the most sublime tunes known to indie kids is a nice but unplesant metaphor as to how, well, you know, its all gone a bit wrong for our project and things in general. Feck anyway; and though you know you are dealing with a mixture of liars, trolls and thoes whoes idea of POV is not of this earth; surrender is not the best defence, if you can bear it. Hope to see you back soon, anyhow. Best. Ceoil (talk) 22:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Please reconsider!
Hi Liz, Sorry, I had to be away for a few weeks. Please reconsider your decision. Please don't let the turkeys (or whichever species of instigator it is this time) get you down. Consider taking a short break and, once recouped, return here to do quiet determined battle on the few things that matter. Besides you have unfinished business to take care of. I just left a note on Ceoil's page about renominating Lucy as an FAC. Looking forward to your quick and reinvigorated return (with some new cat stories to boot). Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  13:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Cat recovered
Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  12:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You are valuable
I was coming by to see how Lucy was going and hoping you, Ceoil and Ottava were going to renominate it soon and I see this! I hope that non-Wikipedia life is treating you well, at least. Perhaps after a good break, you can come back. We need editors like you! You make the project a wonderful place to work and when I tout it to my colleagues I say "You should see this wonderful article on the Lucy poems..." (I really did just say that the other day to a professor.) So, come back when you are ready. We will have a party waiting. Awadewit (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded. With party hats, balloons; everything. Ceoil (talk) 23:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey Liz, you know we all love you....Modernist (talk) 23:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks
Many thanks to those posting here; your kind words are much appreciated. I hope to be back soon, but can't say exactly when. Thank you all again, Kafka Liz (talk) 01:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Look forward to that! All the best in the meantime. Johnbod (talk) 01:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ping! Ceoil (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You might like this. ? Ceoil (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very apt. Thanks. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't mean to be apt. Just pretty is all. Random good tune! Nothing wrong with that. Ceoil (talk) 23:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's that too. :) This is what I've had in my own head lately. Can't believe how young he looks there. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice. Yeah, funny how the years roll up when the hair falls out. (Thats in store for me yet, my father keeps warning me). Here is apt, and dont scare us like that again! Ceoil (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, shucks. :)
 * On a lighter note, I'd've been white-haired years ago if I followed in my father's footsteps. He and his dad (this is the non-Italian side; more from your neck of the woods) went white in their early twenties. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Welcome bark! DOGRIGGR (deflea) 02:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wuf! Kafka Liz (talk) 00:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Treats!
 Here's a load of Turkish Delights for you! Turkish Delights somehow promote WikiLove, and are also very tasty, so hopefully these have made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving something friendly to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Make your own message to spread WikiLove to others! Happy editing! Acalamari 23:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

What a perfect choice. Thank you so much, Acalamari! :) Kafka Liz (talk) 23:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What?! TURKISH delight!? TURK DELIGHT!?! TURKS are barbarians who come from the steppe and know nothing of γλυκά ! Aramgar (talk) 02:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the Turkish language article seems to feature similar punctuation, albeit sans floating exclamation points ! Kafka Liz (talk) 11:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Saladin trivia
No, trivia sections usually don't add anything, but I was having this same discussion about the Hashshashin article the other day...it's pretty arbitrary to add or remove just one thing. I don't really have the time or the energy to go around deleting them all and making sure they stay deleted, though. In this case, to be honest, it was just easier to add that one bit back in, while reverting the Persian guy at the same time. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I almost wouldn't bother; someone would just add it back anyway. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Autoblock
helpme I've been caught in an autoblock affecting my husband. Can someone please help me? I can pretty much assure you he has no intent to return to editing anytime soon, if ever. We are using separate laptops that rely on a shared ip. Please help? Kafka Liz (talk) 01:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll raise the matter at WP:AN for you.— S Marshall  Talk / Cont  01:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Kafka Liz (talk) 01:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Should work now.  — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In light of your prior declarations to Arbcom-L with respect to your shared editing situation, I have granted your account IPBE status, which should permit you to edit through any blocks (and autoblocks) made on other accounts using the same IP address as you. This status is regularly reviewed and will be revoked if there is any abuse; however, I trust that there will be no such problems here. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.  Risker (talk) 01:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually I didn't fix it. I got someone else to as I am really bad at dealing with autoblocks, go figure. As to the FPAS issues of today, I understand there are strong feelings on both sides and I'm sorry you're disgusted with me. I am working on a response. I respect you right to strongly disagree. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very, very saddened and disappointed. I'm past the disgust phase (although that was definitely an initial reaction), and I have spent some time questioning why I am here, and whether what I do here is valued. Thanks, though, for taking an objective look at my situation. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course your work is valued. Wiki can be very frustrating, I've thought of leaving at times myself. Ask yourself, do I enjoy wiki? If yes, then find a way to edit it to avoid things that bother you, or simply avoid those topics, or just don't let it bother you.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I feel rather patronised by that response. I've already foresworn editing in the areas in which I hold degrees and limit myself primarily to copyediting. I do enjoy what I do here very much, and don't want to leave. Very little bothers me, apart from blatant injustice. Forgive me, but I must speak my mind. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to be patronizing, just pass on what has worked for me hoping it might help you out, that's all. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok then. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I understand, Liz. I dunno how much longer I'm going to be here, either. This situation is just unworkable. I'm thinking that forking and starting anew would be the best solution, but I haven't a clue how to do anything like that. I can't think of fifteen people I would sit on an ArbCom to deal with these kinds of problems, even if I could do it at my own will. Maybe the best thing to do is to just vanish once I've said my share. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope you'll reconsider. We seem to be losing good people left and right these days, and I'd hate to left all alone here. I understand very well where you are - I came very close to leaving too when I first read the proposed remedies. The reasons I decided to stay are complex, but they boil down to two things: I believe I can still do good work here, and (here people may laugh at me, but it is true) I was miserable and bored during my time away. That said, the break did help me put things in perspective. I understand completely if you do decide to leave... but I wish you wouldn't. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. I'm pleased to see that at least one of your problems was solved, Liz.— S Marshall  Talk / Cont  11:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and thanks also for your prompt response last night. I wasn't sure what the protocol was for a situation like this, ow whether I'd be able to email anyone to ask for help. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Reading all of this, I'm glad that my problems are my own and not related to wikipolitics. Anyhow, it's good that you didn't leave forever, Liz. Have some fortification for whatever lies ahead... Petropoxy (Lithoderm Proxy) (talk) 03:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to see you back as well. Thanks for the fortification... The link is coming up empty, but I'm assuming it involved recherché delicacies, and perhaps exotic meats as well. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It was the 24 pack of 15 oz. cans of Skyline Chili that you can order online here: . Sorry about that. <FONT COLOR="#2F4F4F">Litho</FONT><FONT COLOR="#464646">derm</FONT> 01:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Will be away until July 1
Hi Liz, I will be away until July 1. We are moving and I'm finding myself strapped for time, finding also that, in order to de-stress, I'm making random edits on pages that I usually don't edit, and getting more scatter-brained.

I feel like I'm bailing out on you a little, since I had encouraged you to resubmit Lucy at the FAC altar ASAP. You are still welcome to submit while I'm away (as I'm sure it will sail through easily this time, if I may mix my metaphors). In any case, I'll try to read the article carefully during my Wikibreak so that it can be improved even more upon my return, whether it has FA'ed by then or not. Hope you are finding your return enjoyable! See you here in 3 weeks time! Regards, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm sorry I missed you! I was too caught up in other things this past weekend even to think about Lucy. I'll cast an eye over her and talk to my partners in crime. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was just on vacation myself - it was so strange to be away from Wikipedia for a week! :) I still kept thinking "should I improve the article on Monticello?" while I was there - it was crazy. We should work together on Lucy in the coming weeks! Awadewit (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Welcome back! I was travelling recently too, and I'm almost embarrassed to admit that WP has gained pictures and a new stub as a result. Working on Lucy sounds good: you're one of the "partners in crime" I mentioned above (in case you had't noticed). I'm a bit caught up in a couple of other things just at present, so I may need a few days to work that out. That said, Lucy may be just what I need to take my mind off things. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

about your source
did you checked your source. How can you claim double ancestry even the founders were Turkic? your sources dont claim they were Persian-Turkic. please dont put your ultra-nationalist acts here (like your fella Aramgar.)--94.54.228.174 (talk) 10:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've checked the source. It's not about "double ancestry", but about ethic heritage, geographical location and cultural influence; please see our article on Turko-Persian tradition for clarification. The source indicates that they meet this definition. Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 11:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: Speedy!
No problem. It sometimes seems that, after zillions of reverts, I already know all the numbers by heart... Cheers. --Zlerman (talk) 11:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for reverting the vandal on my talk page. This is what I get for doing speedy deletes. Geogre (talk) 20:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Glad to help. It's happened to me as well. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

A day at a time
Where there is life, there is hope...Modernist (talk) 02:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Modernist. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Established editors
You are on the list. Some excellent contributions indeed. I am putting this on the back burner for now. If you have any suggestions, please contact me via talk page. Regards Peter Damian (talk) 11:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Pong
Incoming. Ceoil (talk) 17:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Read and replied. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion/Macedonia
We're holding a preferential vote to decide what proposals should go forward to the community and narrow down the vast selection that we currently have. Since you've expressed interest in the above discussion, I thought you would appreciate the opportunity to participate.  Balkan <font color="#008">Fever  12:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note. I've been rereading everything and am putting a post together now. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

If anyone is watching this, I'm aware of the current RfC and am carefully reviewing the options one last time before I proceed... Kafka Liz (talk) 01:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that in your endorsement you made no reference to disambiguation and whether Macedonia should be a dab page or not. The common name of the subject of the other articles is "Macedonia" too. All your points about using the common name of the country can be used to support Macedonia (country) as well with no problems. Shadow mor ph  ^"^ 19:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Cough
You don't have to ask permission to edit something on a page that you are co-lead on, especially when I am just spot helping while people are busy. :P Ottava Rima (talk) 19:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't want you to feel I was treading on your toes. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be quite the opposite. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No. You wrote huge chunks of the article, after all. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And I have it on my list of pages that I have put major work into, but that still doesn't make me a primary on the page. The Lucy poems, like William Butler Yeats and some others, are Ceoil's pages that I added content in order to ensure that his pages could get to/stay at FA level. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I respect the hard work you've put into it. Your help is appreciated. Kafka Liz (talk) 17:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I got ahold of the Ober and Ober source and added appropriate page numbers and fixes. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You and Ceoil now have finally gotten it through. Will you be listing it at FAC soon? Ottava Rima (talk) 14:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This evening's very bad for me; small-scale family disaster in progress. I haven't had a chance to look at anything yet, and may not until later tomorrow. I promise to get back to you ASAP, though. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand - in my realm, "soon" can take up to a few weeks. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 21:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Cyprus
Please keep an eye on the exploits of 82.145.248.69 (and related IPs from the same range) in Cyprus. Does not look like good faith edits any more. Cheers, --Zlerman (talk) 11:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Will do. Thanks for the heads up. Kafka Liz (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Wiki-Conference New York Update: 3 weeks to go
For those of you who signed up early, Wiki-Conference New York has been confirmed for the weekend of July 25-26 at New York University, and we have Jimmy Wales signed on as a keynote speaker.

There's still plenty of time to join a panel, or to propose a lightning talk or an open space session. Register for the Wiki-Conference here. And sign up here for on-wiki notification. All are invited! This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 03:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Return of Lucy
Its done. At FAC, like. Ceoil (talk) 16:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, KafkaLiz - I just wanted to say thank you for the note you left on my page; I really appreciated it. My apologies for the delay in responding - I've been cutting down on my time here. Ricardiana (talk) 02:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I completely forgot myself while busy with other issues, but now I will hope to make amends - congrats on your hard work which made sure that Lucy was able to pass through FAC. It honestly could not have been accomplished without your work. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Congratulations Liz at long last...Modernist (talk) 16:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fourthed. Ceoil (talk) 16:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Gentlemen and ladies (whoever is watching ;)), many thanks. I really appreciate your help and support - I was without a computer for the past month or so, so please forgive my tardy response! Kafka Liz (talk) 01:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Retirement
As I have said to these others who have commented, I truly appreciate your kind wishes. No one knows what the future holds. Take care. ---<font face="Georgia"> RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 16:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Well
Nice to see you pop up on my watchlist today. Hey. Hope all is well in Americaland. Ceoil (talk) 00:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Things have been better. I haven't had much time to be here of late; been out trying to convince folks I'm the best trained monkey money can buy. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I know quite quite a few well trained monkeys tring to sweet talk organ grinders these days. Its all belly up and a bit lop sided. Ceoil (talk) 02:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Certain things came out recently about what actually happened... infuriating. I should never have come back to this town. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you are lurking still from time to time ;) Re "Certian things"; I get the impression that you are bright and cynical enough not to be surprised by they way "certian things" happen. Not that that makes it easier. Ceoil (talk) 02:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks... I suppose I'm not surprised, but it's been an ugly and demoralising shock, almost as bad as the initial one. I really have to wonder what on earth I've been wasting my life doing these past few years. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And I'll shut up now and stop being so f'ing miserable. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec - I'll be miserable too, good company) Well, my hope is thats its part of a cycle, and things will return in 3 or 4 years; though that will not be to the. Have you heard of the word 'banjacksed'? Well Paddys, they be that now. We gave €7B to the Irish banks yesterday; a direct transfered from the exchequer to bail banks from reckelss lending. Fine. Last night the former head of Bank of Ireland - a man fired c. 2005 for looking up pictures of las vegas call girls on the web during office hours - was sneering on prime time TV about how single parents drawing €180 benifit a week are a cancer on Irish society. Certian things.... Ceoil (talk) 03:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Small wonder than most of my fantasies these days involve automatic weaponry. On a side note, what happened to the punt? How is it that Britain kept her pound sterling and yer punts have become Euros? (I'm a numismatist, not an accountant, so. (and I hear and agree about the fellow you mention... don't get me started.)) Kafka Liz (talk) 22:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * apologies if this is some sort of sore subject. I really didn't know. I'm a financial ignoramus.
 * Welcome back Liz! I know it is tough out there, but please don't be disheartened.  This too shall pass.  And that I'm sure about.  I remember being perplexed in the 1990s when house prices everywhere in the US began to go through the roof, when people began spending larger and larger chunks of their income on mortgages, and when university endowments began to grow from many billions to many many billions every few years.  I remember thinking, "This is not adding up."  Well, now we know, it literally wasn't.  Maybe the crisis will make all of us a little saner.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but... Many universities who lost money aren't exactly poor by normal standards. Some pay the price for the foolhardiness of others. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

One for both of yez. I tend to prefer then studio version, but.... Subtitles en español are a plus. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe one good thing that came out of this crisis is that Leonard Cohen has made a comeback. His voice is more ragged, but the lyrics just as apt.  I don't have a video for you.  The other day the cats were enacting a funny scene in the morning that I wish I had taped.  The senior citizen, Romeo, was trying to sleep after his breakfast, while the others (just a few inches away) were watching the squirrels, the chipmunks, and the birds in the backyard (who too had just been fed).  Our other tom cat, Clooney, was switching his tail back and forth in preparation for a mock attack on the critters from behind the screen door, and, in the process, whacking Romeo with it.  Romeo, for his part, was wildly swiping at Clooney in his sleep.  That made the tail stop ever so briefly, but then the cycle began all over again.  This went on for quite a few minutes until a chipmunk came too close, Clooney went crashing into the screen and made a four inch rip and Romeo woke up (but not before Tinky-Winky, our feral wannabe, attempted to escape to the Great Outdoors through the newly made hole).    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, when I was at college, we all loved Leonard Cohen. There was a small cadre of us trying to argue to the Dylan crowd (in the Nineties, mid you) that Cohen was the better lyricist... Dunno if I'd still stand by that, but. His points are still solid.


 * My Mishka is living down at the Cape these days: more sunbeams and more mice. Because of his extensive dental surgeries, he's been gumming them to death of late... I don't know if the full description belongs here, exactly, but I've never seen a more severely battered living mouse (I flipped it outside during a slow moment; didn't want it dying indoors). I envy you for the space to keep more than two! Kafka Liz (talk) 00:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess he is improvising. In the wild, cats don't have dental surgery.  No fun for the mouse though.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  15:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed: I never would have intervened otherwise. I'm no bleeding heart (if you hadn't guessed), but this poor thing was dragging its guts on the ground. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Liz, one of my favorites - and he didn't write it...Modernist 03:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the lyrics are beautiful.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  15:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Y'know, he's so good on his own; I never understood the crappy backing vocalists (tho' I've a theory). Thanks for this one: I stopped listening to the new stuff early on. I like this one, though. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry
For muddying up your nice clean talk. That is all. Ceoil (talk) 00:38, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Heck, no worries. A clean talk is a guilty talk ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 00:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you know enough by now to know that misery loves company. Rain on us all you like, the only stipulation being that you use Lenoard &co (or their Mexican non union equivalent) as soundtrack. I'm not sure if this ever reached ye in Americaland . Its so fine, but about as glum as they come. Ceoil (talk) 00:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * - that's like something as daft as I would do! is v. funny taken out of context - Now look here, Liz..... All is ok ish otherwise, I hope. I got you msg, will reply. Ceoil (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah... so much for my attempt at vandal fighting. Undo a bad page move, slap down a CSD and ... poof. That'll larn me. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe vandal fighting isn't your thing. Perhalps you were meant for mere article building only. Thats a hard cross, but there it is. Ceoil (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh heh. This peasant feels remorse. ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 20:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thats it out of the question for you becoming admin so, it seems. Object: Not tidy with twinkle. Your only chance to negate this is screaming like a Banshee on the dramboards for the next three months. If that doesn't work; its back to content for you, I'm afraid. Ceoil (talk) 20:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How long do I need to scream to get a dram at the dramboards? ;) And what's the quality of said dram? Kafka Liz (talk) 21:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A long time is how long and low is the quality you can expect. Liz, dont do it; dont cross over to the dark side! Attractive as twinkle might seem. Ceoil (talk) 23:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Emadam
Hello Kafka Liz. Your suggest is true. but when i added some detail to article Carloman of Bavaria, I did not know what is the plagiarism. and now i want to start a new way to expand the Wikipedia, if you can please help me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emadam (talk • contribs) 05:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, Emadam. Well, as I said before, the problem is that you can't take a chunk of text written by someone else and add it unless you say who wrote it and provide information about where it was originally published - in what book or in what journal, for example. Also, we generally try to avoid large block quotations when possible; usually it is possible to say the same thing in a different way and incorporate it more easily into the surrounding text. The best thing to do (in my experience) is read your source carefully, take some time to digest/think about what it says, and then explain it in your own words.. Does that make sense? This page, Citing sources, will explain a little bit more about when and how to cite things, if you are interested. I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask if you have more questions. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Please!
Your help would be eagerly welcomed! Unfortunately the folks I know are indisposed. The whole of WikiProject Econ is in a Mediation, Ceoil is probably too stoned to be of any help, and at any rate, I suspect he's a sexual predator. And then there's Outriggr, but he retired, likely because of the aforementioned predation. I need all the help I can get -- please jump in! --JayHenry (talk) 02:10, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll be careful about who I accept candy from, then. I don't know how much time I'll have today, but I should be able to put in a good chunk of time over the weekend. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure to have future projects that will bring me begging at your door like a six-year-old this Saturday. If copyediting is something you enjoy then we'll be good friends indeed -- I have no eye for details and manage to forget WP:DASH or how to format my sources every single time.  That lack of detail makes me pretty useless toward helping other people, but I will try if you ever need it! --JayHenry (talk) 04:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In all honesty, I love copyediting; it's how I got here, really. I'm a bit ashamed that I wasn't able to put as much work into the Recessions as I had hoped... don't hesitate to ask, and I hope to give you a fairer assessment next time. I have a ridiculously evil headache at present... you may repay or prepay me with amusing comments at yer leisure. ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 05:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I always regret when civilians get hurt, but back the fuck up Jayhenry. Copyeditors & content peeps combined are gold dust here, least of all them that is sound. You already stole Outriggr, my heart, from me, not again you steal! Note; I am prepared to smite you, and your guitar over this, if you persist. If needs be. Which (cough) im sure will not be. Thanks for you cooperation. Ceoil (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You ran a campaign for several years trying to run Outriggr off this project and you blame me and my guitar?! Oh that's rich as peanutbutterfudge! --JayHenry (talk) 02:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Peanutbutterfudge is good. Can live with that! Ceoil (talk) 03:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Emadam
Hi Kafka liz. I'm familiar with methods of Writing but I don't know how was in Wikipedia, now I know , for that I changed my name to Clioemad because I want to start a new way with principles of writing in Wikipedia with new name. That's very kind of you who guided me .Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emadam (talk • contribs) 07:01, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, best of luck, and if there's anything else I can help with, feel free to ask. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:51, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Tune
Not sure if its your sort of thing, but these guys, are doing it - for real - in Eire just about now. Them funk soul brothers. I'm also going through a Kenny Rodgers phase, which is a private thing. No laughing down the back. Sorry for annoying you, I'm a small bit bored Ceoil (talk) 01:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, I don't know these guys, but I enjoyed that. And you'll have to work harder than that to annoy me... ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)  Kenny RODGERS? O_o
 * If you have a problem with Kenny Rodgers you might like to say it in normal sized text. Thanks a lot. Ceoil (talk) 02:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, I know when to walk away. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Im Qasqhai
your sources are not reliable, it means; those are fake--94.54.249.168 (talk) 12:44, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but the Encyclopedia Iranica is indeed a reliable source; your own personal opinion is considered original research. Please review these policies. Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 12:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Elbistan/Abulustayn
Hi Kafka Liz. Sorry, but I'm not so proficient in all of Wiki's editing rules. I've tried to move the page, but since I've created another page with the same name it won't allow me. Can you please help me move the page and along the way explain to me how to do it? The reason for moving is the the second name is the common one in research (e.g. Amitai's "Mongols and Mamluks", chp. 7. BTW, if you know, can you teach me how to edit those infoboxes on the side (Mongol Invasions infobox). <strong style="color:blue;">Nik Sage ( talk / contrib ) 17:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, it's an easy enough mistake to make. Some of the rules here can be a bit tricky at first. There is a way to move the page still, but we'll need an admin to help us, and I'd like to hold off on that until we've allowed others a chance to comment on the proposed move. Amitai is an excellent source, but I'm not certain his spelling is the most common one in English (though it may well be a more accurate version of the name); a simple search in JSTOR is showing me 110 results for Elbistan versus 5 for Abulustayn. So I'd like it if some of the other editors interested in Seljuk and Mongol history gave us some input.


 * About the infobox, I'm not an expert, but I'll try to help if I can. What are you trying to do with it? Kafka Liz (talk) 18:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Kafak Liz. Concerning the name I'll write the reasons inside the disscusion of the term, but one obvious one is that Amitai's writing is the watermark on the subject and no one else wrote even a monograph about the battle. About the infobox I've read the wiki instruction but still haven't understood how to do it. I'm trying to edit the infobox "Campaignbox Mamluk-Ilkhanid War" and add all of the battles but can't understand how. BTW, do you study about Mongolian history or just an avid fan?
 * <strong style="color:blue;">Nik Sage ( talk / contrib ) 18:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok... I'm looking at the infobox at Mongol invasions of Syria, and I'm confused because I can see it, but when go to view or edit it, it says it doesn't exist. I can't find it in the page text either... this goes a bit beyond the tiny amount of what I know about these things. I would recommend asking at WikiProject Infoboxes. Sorry I can't be of more help there.


 * The talkpage note looks good. I don't have a strong opinion about which name to use. We generally try to use the most common name in English, but your argument seems fair, as scholarly opinion on the non-English spellings does change over time. As for the history, I'm generally more focused on the Sejuks, but nowhere near as knowledgeable as some of the other users here. I picked up a lot of it from my husband, Aramgar, who no longer edits here. Kansas Bear would be a good person to ask for an opinion, and there are several others as well. Requesting input at the Military history and Middle Ages projects might be helpful too. And yourself? How did you become interested? Kafka Liz (talk)


 * Thanks for the tip, but I've already checked the WikiProject Infoboxes and didn't understand a damn thing (and couldn't find the page text either). I know the common name policy but again I've only read about the battle in Amitai's writings. I'm studying Middle Eastern studies and speciallising in military history of the region, with a keen interest in Mongols, Mamluks, Seljuks and so on. By your connection to JSTOR, is it fair to assume you are either learn or work at a University?
 * <strong style="color:blue;">Nik Sage ( talk / contrib ) 02:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I have close ties to a local uni. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:41, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Lucy Poems
Front page news, uh oh and congratulations!...Modernist (talk) 04:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh heh. Wow. Guess I'd better try to be around more today. Thanks, Modernist. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 11:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I am surprised by your kind words and I did not expect them based on you previous statements. I would have wished you congrats like I did Ceoil but I figured that you did not want to have anything to do with me based on your previous statements. I apologize for that assumption, and I wish to thank you again for your hard work on a great page. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the truth is that you created a lot of content for the page and, I think, cared pretty strongly about it (as we all did). I may not have found working with you easy, but I do appreciate the time and care that you put into the article. So again: thank you. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Divine Comedy song "Lucy"
Congratulations on a featured article. I added the reference as it is relevant (and not trivia), but I have not got the time at the moment to expand on it as I'm currently in the latter stages of writing a thesis on 17th century science/the royal society/Robert Boyle. As such, I've going to have leave it in your group's hands as I have no expertise in English literature. TorstenGuise (talk) 01:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, TorstenGuise. Thanks for your note - I was leaving my own note on the talk at the time. Please understand that I'm not trying to revert your addition blindly, it's just that I'd like to see the information better incorporated into the article if it is to be included. As I stated over at the article talkpage, I'd really like for Ceoil to comment, as he can probably make a short but fairly informative paragraph on various musical interpretations. I know this is not the only band inspired by the poems, and that not all modern interpretations are necessarily trivia. I didn't take it out initially because I thought it might well merit inclusion and wanted a bit more feedback from others. I can certainly relate to non-wiki time commitments, by the way, especially if you are at work on your thesis (which sounds quite interesting, from the small bit you mentioned). I apologise if you feel I was abrupt with you; that wasn't my intent. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

No offense taken at all. I wholeheartedly understand your position and havent got a problem with it at all. I've been round long enough on here not to take the hump over someone deleting stuff I've put on. Like I said, Literature is not my field, but music is one of those I know a bit about. I really wouldn't know how to enter into this debate. I also don't want to spoil such a good article.

My own work is on a 17th century book New Experiments Physico-Mechannicall, Touching the Spring of the Air and its Effects by Robert Boyle. Its a very important work in the history of science, something that the relevant articles on here only touch the surface of. I doubt that I will improve them though as it would probably breach WP:OR. It really is fascinating stuff, but it is pretty much consuming me at the moment in an effort to get it finished.

Thanks for your reply and seeing my point. Good luck with further work on the article. TorstenGuise (talk) 02:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for such a gracious reply; a lot of people become very offended when their contributions are changed or removed, and it's not always easy to help them see what the problem is. Thank you also for your kind words about the article; it wasn't an easy article to pull together, by any means, so it's really wonderful to hear that other people enjoyed it.

I've read a little bit about Robert Boyle, although nothing actually by him. It was about animals in vacuum chambers, if I recall correctly? Really a very interesting man; the whole period is pretty fascinating to me as the transition between the rational, modern world (as we generally see it) and all that went before (nutshell summary; I know it's a bit more complicated than that). In any case, it's easy to see how you'd be completely absorbed, even without a deadline. Thanks again, and best of luck, Kafka Liz (talk) 02:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The animals in a vacuum chamber are just one part of his work. The apparatus he used (devised by his assistant, Robert Hooke) was the first dry pump of its type and the experiments he performed rewrote the rules on thermodynamics,combustion, sound, and the scientific method. The greatest discovery was Boyle's Law.

I've managed to have a quick look at the discussion over the Lucy song. I think that with my experience, I can safely say that the reference won't go in. It already seems apparent that to be a featured article means that its too good for a relevant modern cultural reference. I've seen it on a lesser scale in other articles I've been involved in (and people wonder why editors are leaving the project). I call it Exclusive exclusion. The fact I've already declared that literature is not my expertise means I've already made any of my suggestions undefendable. Good luck with your future work with it though as it is still a fantastic article.. TorstenGuise (talk) 23:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

In Lieu of a card
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah...and have a great new year Liz, much appreciation and if you are headed this way please let me know, here's thinking about Ceoil: ...Modernist (talk) 23:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Modernist... :) You have an email... but in case it gets lost, I'll be down for at least a week between Christmas and New Year. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for your well-wishes. I hope your problems have also moved toward resolution... and will continue to do so in the upcoming year. I know my phrasing sounds a little corporate in that sentence but my intent is sincere. Some Derby pie is always helpful for problem resolution. As far as music goes, I'm not sure what you like, but after a semester is over I always feel like a little head-banging auf Deutsch.(rest assured, my musical interests are otherwise quite diverse!) So here are the two best performances[citation needed] from the Voelkerball dvd: Stein um Stein and Morgenstern (although others are quite good). Not exactly holiday cheer, I guess, aber es passt. <FONT COLOR="#2F4F4F">Litho</FONT><FONT COLOR="#464646">derm</FONT> 04:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Liz for the Christmas wishes. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 19:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey. All the best for the season from me too. Ceoil (talk) 11:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Cutting down, for sure. But christmas is so, so boooring. Here I am again. How is all in Americaland? Ceoil (talk) 11:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Wet, cold and crappy. Meeting a mutual friend later today, though. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:24, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Mutual friend? Eeek! Don't bitch too much....and pass on best regards. Its ice over here at the moment, have had two skirmishes with cars and ditches in the last 3 weeks. No fun. I'm fine, but my car isn't, and I believe I took out some wildlife (a mouse and a small bird). Ceoil (talk) 11:31, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Glad you're still in one piece. My brother had a near miss this time last year and it wasn't pretty. We had two and a half feet of snow last week, but it's rapidly being washed away. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)