User talk:Kahuroa/Archive 4

Archive 4: July 2007 — December 2007

Any comments?
I see you have made several changes to Military history of New Zealand, I take this to mean you are interested in this subject and I was wondering what your views were on my suggestion on its talk page.Blacksmith2talk 05:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Nikau
Tena koe Kahuroa

it's a perfect article now. I'll check what I could do for the German version. BTW I think Nikau is now not a stub any more? Plus BTW I have done some more Māori gods, could you pls doublecheck? Please find the list on Stammbaum der Gottheiten der Māori. Kia ora Wolfgang K 22:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Family tree of the Māori gods
I have translated this article into English. Would you please correct my English? And I would appreciate if you could suggest further steps in this article, now I know how to do it and I could easily extend it. Kia ora Wolfgang K 23:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Photo of Kiwis
I am totally unimpressed by your impolite comments about my photo. There was no need to be so personal about the reason why you decided to delete the image. Figaro 02:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello Figaro - sorry if you saw it as personal, but my comments did relate to the photo, certainly not to you as the uploader. I think my reasons were fair enough as to why I replaced it (it wasn't deleted). Everyone who has uploaded an image has had it replaced - I have - I even replace my own from time to time - if they were somehow sacred it would mean that Wikipedia could never improve, wouldn't it? But I will take your point and maybe try to refrain from spelling out the shortcomings when I replace images Kahuroa 05:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Fiji
In fact it doesn't locate at Polynesia, that is obvious, but in floristic Polynesian Subkingdom. - Berton 19:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest that you make that clear by renaming the category and provide a link to the article about the "Polynesian Subkingdom". Kahuroa 19:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Angsana
According to the database of ILDIS, Angsana is native of tropical Asia and cultivated in countless countries besides Fiji (see ), then it would not be in fact, correct to include it in the category Flora of Fiji, for instance.Berton 20:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Auckland Meetup - 11 August 2007 1pm
You are invited to Auckland Meetup 3 on the afternoon of Saturday 11 August 2007 at Ironique in Mt Eden. Please see Meetup/Auckland 3 for details. You can also watch Meetup/Auckland to be informed of future NZ meetups. Linnah 13:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

All Blacks spoken article
Hi from England! User:Shudde suggested I contact you for help with some pronunciations of Māori names in the All Blacks article, which he asked me to do a spoken version of. I'll copy what I put on his talk page...

I found a website with a Māori pronunciation guide, which has been quite helpful, but these are the pronunciations I'd just like a bit of clarification on:


 * The two hakas: Ka Mate and Kapa o Pango (I have used long-ish vowels and a soft "ng" - Pang-o rather than Pang-go)
 * Te Rauparaha
 * Kia Whaka-ngawari (using the pronunciation guide, I got something like KEE-a f(w)a-ka-(ng)a-WAA-ri)
 * Mils Muliaina (Milz or Milss? Long or short u?)
 * Sitiveni Sivivatu (which vowels are long and which are short; stressed syllables)
 * Isaia Toeava (surname, mostly)
 * Sione Lauaki
 * Rodney So'oialo
 * Neemia Tialata (length of vowels in surname, and I wondered if his first name sounds like the Biblical figure Nehemiah, with 4 syllables?)

Let me know here or on my talk page. Thanks for your help! Hassocks5489 17:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Reply

 * The two hakas: Ka Mate and Kapa o Pango


 * Don't make the vowels long-ish. English short vowels already sound long to Māori ears. The only long vowel here is Ka in 'Kah mate'. Soft ng - definitely not the Northern English ng, you can't hear the g. Go for Spanish/Italian/French renderings of the vowels. Technically you want Pa-ngo rather than Pang-o.
 * so Ka Mate = Eng spelling Kah MUTTeh, all vowels short except the Kah. Kapa = exactly like Southern English Cuppa as in cuppa tea. Kapa o Pango = Eng spelling CUPPa aw Pungaw, all short vowels.


 * Te Rauparaha. All vowels very short, au as in French 'au', like English 'oh'. Main stress on RAU, tiny secondary stress on the following syllable.
 * te 'RAU pa-ra-ha (English spelling: teh RO-puh-ruh-huh, don't drawl)


 * Kia Whaka-ngawari (using the pronunciation guide, I got something like KEE-a f(w)a-ka-(ng)a-WAA-ri)
 * Nope. Ki-a fa-ka-NGA-Wa-ri. Don't make the KEE too long. Almost like Kya. English spelling: Keeuh fuh-kuh-NAH-wuh-ree, not drawled.


 * Mils Muliaina (Milz or Milss? Long or short u?)
 * That is a Samoan name. Milz Moo-li-EYE-na


 * Sitiveni Sivivatu (which vowels are long and which are short; stressed syllables)
 * That is Fijian. All vowels are short. Sitiveni is Stephen. si-ti-VEN-i si-vi-VA-tu (Eng: sitty VENy sivvy VUH too)

Kahuroa 22:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Isaia Toeava (surname, mostly) :Samoan again - (Eng: ee-SIGH-uh TOY-uhvuh - rhymes with TOY lover)
 * Sione Lauaki Samoan. Sione = John. (ENG: SYAWneh LAO-ucky rhymes with HOW plucky)
 * Rodney So'oialo Samoan. (Eng: so-oy-AH-lo. Catch in the voice between so and oy
 * Neemia Tialata (length of vowels in surname, and I wondered if his first name sounds like the Biblical figure Nehemiah, with 4 syllables?)- Again that is Samoan I think? It would be in English spelling neh-eh-MEE-uh tee-uh-LUTTuh.


 * That's great - thanks very much for your help! Hassocks5489 23:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Articles_for_deletion/Ki-o-rahi
I agree, and have changed my vote accordingly. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 10:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Māori word for flag
Hi Kahuroa - I've a question for you...

Other than Wikipedia, I'm also a member olf the flag database site "Flags of the world", and it's editors are busy trying to list different words for flags and banners in as many languages as possible. This question has just come up there: ''Page < http://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aotearoa > suggests that "flag" in Maori is "pīwari", but our pages  and  gives "haki". Is one of these wrong, or is there a subtle difference in meaning, such as flag/banner or flag/standard?''

I don't know enough of te reo to be able to answer - hopefully you'll have more of an idea. Grutness...wha?  01:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Have a look at the Maori Wikipedia here and you can see that Heke cut down the pou haki, the flagpole. Just my two cents -- I too value Kahuroa's opinions in Wiki. Cheers. Moriori 02:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

'Haki' and 'pīwari' both mean flag. Haki (a transliteration of 'flag'?? - or more likely, of 'Jack'), has been used since the 19th century at least. 'Pīwari' (meaning 'to wave in the wind') is more recent - it's the term that The Māori Language Commission gives in its dictionary 'Te Matatiki'. I'm guessing the MLC was trying to provide an alternative that isn't a transliteration. So pīwari is a bit more official if you like. Haki is the one everyone knows tho, and 'pou pīwari' sounds odd to me. 'Te Matatiki' also gives 'haki kairota' for 'linesman's flag', and says that haki is 'common usage' for flag. Another word is 'kara', from 'colour' as in the trooping of the colour. Kahuroa 05:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks (and to Moriori, too) - that was very helpful. I'll pass the info on to FOTW. Grutness...wha?  01:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Whitehead contributions
I'd just like to say thanks for your contributions to the Whitehead article, particularly the "Place in Māori culture" section. Since I'd created this section it hasn't really been touched and it's nice to have someone with a bit of knowledge in this area craft it a bit - personally I've found researching the material for that section a very interesting experience. It has also made me aware that the significance of NZ birds to Māori is an area of knowledge that has been badly neglected on wikipedia - jesus I mean Kakapo was at FA for a long time with only a sentence or two about the birds being hunted for food and feathers. It raises some interesting questions too. For instance I orginally included a summarised account of an old Māori story about the Albatross and the Kakapo in that article but another user thought it wasn't really relavant and it's now been cut - it's hard to know what to include and what not to - where do you draw the line you know?I want to get Whitehead to GA status eventually but I dunno.. I suspect some will want this section pruned and made more succinct - whatever the case I hope the bulk of information there can be retained.

I'm planning a possible collaboration on one of the Wattlebird/Callaeidae articles in the future ( in a month or 3), probably Kokako or Saddleback as they're in dire need of attention - you seem to be pretty on the ball with natural history on wikipedia and I imagine you would be a great help with the "place in Māori culture" aspect - interested? Cheers, Kotare 02:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC).
 * Sure, am interested. We can take another look at the albatross and the kākāpō too. Kahuroa 00:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah you're right concise is good. Some pruning is in order for Whitehead, I might consult with you on that at some point in the future if that's alright. Cheers, Kotare 12:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah cool, it's nice to see these articles taking shape. You know it's something that has crossed my mind, I think the short answer is, yes a separate article dedicated to birds in Māori culture would work. However, if we included specific information about the place of every species of NZ bird in Māori culture the article could grow very long and it would be divided up into many different sections, to my mind this suggests it would be more logical to include information about the place of birds in Māori which is specific to individual species in the main article for each under a "Place in Māori culture" heading ; then we could just use this article to provide an overview with tidbits of information as well as the legends about birds (there's one big one isn't there? sorry it's not an area I know alot about). What do you reckon? CheersKotare 07:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Ngāti Ruanui
Hi, Kahuroa. Regarding the quality scale rating for the Ngāti Ruanui article, I would suggest that the article is in fact "start-class" rather than a stub. Many salient topics are not covered in the article and it requires a lot of expansion, but it does contains more than rudimentary information and is long enough not to be considered a stub. Drop me a line on my talk page and let me know what you think. Otherwise, if you don't object, I'll remove the stub tag after about a week or so. Cheers. – Liveste 04:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Kahuroa - to be honest, I agree with Liveste with this one. A stub is really only one or two paragraphs tops. Sure, this still needs expansion, but it's beyond the level that can really be classed as a stub. Putting a WPNZ assessment banner template in the article's talk page (it can still be listed as stub-class or maybe start-class there happily enough) is probably the best solution. Grutness...wha?  00:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, tho I thought it should be marked somehow. Thanks Grutness. Kahuroa 00:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can try adding either  or   to the top of the article. – Liveste 07:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Wanganui Maori dialects
Those who say that 'wh' is pronouced as an 'f' sound in the Wanganui Maori dialects are wrong. As I am a native of that area with very strong family ties, I can say that the adoption of 'Whanganui', especially for the name of the river, was made without consulting local people. Even now, there is still a lot of anger, and still refer to the river by its proper name - Wanganui River. The Maori Nationalists, like the republicans, are bigots who have had their way for far too long. What do you think? - (203.211.73.21 12:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC))

Birds in Māori culture article
Yeah I think this article well work well, we can link the "x species in maori culture" sections in individual bird species articles back to it as well. Hmm that's interesting. I think you're right, it does sound wiser to stick to the more practical stuff as regards birds in maori culture, I didn't realise there was so much controversy as regards the spiritual aspect, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I can see what you mean as regards the generalisation that "the Huia was the most sacred bird to maori", also, I imagine that different Iwi would have had different perspectives on this. Yeah "tapu" is a difficult one, I've just read a bit about it here and it seems to me that it's one of those cultural concepts that's difficult to translate into english. I think the word "tapu" should still be used in the article as regards the Huia though, have a look at the last part of the lead and see what you think. Also, I saw you removed the stuff about using Huia tail feathers as a war plume the marereko - I think I used Riley's book as a reference for this but I'm not sure it should have been removed because I have another source for that info, a NZ geographic article from '93 on the Huia and that seems pretty reliable. Thanks for you your help though, it's good to have someone with some knowledge in this area help me sort this stuff out.Kotare 05:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah "Marereko" - I triple checked it and it's spelt the same way for both sources - strange... Kotare 07:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sweet as, no worries. Cheers, Kotare 07:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Found in in Tregear 1904. That might well be the original source. Kahuroa 07:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Huia
Hey there, I'll check the references for that "worn as hats" quote and get back to you in a couple of days it's just i returned some of the books I was using for research to the Wellington central library and the info. is in one of them. Cheers, Kotare 22:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Kia ora koe. Kahuroa 05:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, here is the info, it's from Elsdon Best's "Maori Bird Lore; An Introduction"

This is the paragraph which mentions them being worn as hats, I've left in some other information for context:

''Another procedure used in the 1870's by maori hunters was to skin the bird, removing wings and legs, then stretch the skin on sticks before a fire. The undersides of the quill feathers were cut so as to make the tail feathers flexible and the whole was packed between 2 pieces of totara bark for barter or sale.The prepared skin was also worn as a hat, sometimes with the beak still attached. Head and beak were attached to Potae taua, mourning caps of worked flax worn by widows.''

the NZ geo article gives some additional info about the potae taua/huia:

The skins were dried and worn from the ears and in some cases a special flax headpiece was ornamented with huia heads, "the beaks of which, hanging down and coming into contact make a rattling sound as the wearer moves about. These are called "potae huia" and no one but a woman of high rank would presume to wear one" wrote the naturalist Sir Walter Buller. Kotare 07:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Te Raparaha, chief of the Kawias, watercolour by R. Hall, c. 1840s.jpg|left|thumb|20px|Te Rauparaha wearing a pōhoi]][[Image:Te Rangihaeata, watercolour by Charles Decimus Barraud, 1840.jpg|thumb|20px|Te Rangihaeata wearing a pōhoi]]Interesting. Have you got a page number for this? I have heard of and even seen partial birdskins  (ie pūkeko, not the whole skin, mainly the head, neck and breast) used as ornaments, with the beaks attached and hanging down. The term 'hat' is a tad misleading here. Skins tended to be worn as ornaments on the sides of the head or from the ears even - one name for these is pōhoi, and were only worn by people of high rank. As Best says the skins are attached to the headgear made of flax, rather than being the headgear itself, and the heads hung down from the sides. The pic shows Te Rauparaha wearing one sort of pōhoi from the ears - the caption says 'feathers' but its probably a skin. There is a portrait by Goldie?? I think of a chief wearing a bird head (Kākā?) with the curved beak clearly shown. Will try and trace this, in the meantime I found another pic, this one showing Te Rangihaeata wearing a pōhoi toroa (albatross pōhoi) and SIX huia feathersKahuroa 09:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's page 43, at any rate it's on the last page of the section about Huia in the book. Yeah the idea of Huia skins being made into proper hats doesn't seem quite right.. never seen anything made by maori like that. Yeah i agree, the term "hat" is a bit misleading- I think it may be best to just remove that sentence about them being used to make hats ( bit obscure, hard to verify) and mention the use of them as pōhoi/ ornaments worn from the neck or ears and then put a concise bit of info in about them being used in headdresses. I want to do some more work on it actually, there's that little tweak + there is additional info. about their place in NZ european culture to go up. I'm a bit busy at the moment but will have a crack sometime in the next week or so when I get a chance. Cheers, Kotare 02:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, that sounds great. Kahuroa 05:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! That'll be a really relavant illustration for the article and of course it needs more pictures. I will eventually get around to that tweak/update, I'm just a bit busy with uni work right now. Cheers, Kotare 02:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Tamil Bell
Kindly visit the talk page. I've confirmed the validity of the third link there.:-) -Ravichandar84 05:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I undesrtand that uve been time and again modifying Tamil Bell article. Please look at this article. Click 'Radical' on the left pane. You will be getting a drop-down window. Scroll down and select 'Tamils c.1170AD'. You will be led to an article. Please go through the contents of the article.THE ARTICLE CLEARLY MENTIONS THAT THE INSCRIPTON WAS 'MUKKIYATTEN'S SHIP'S BELL' Regards. -Ravichandar84 08:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The link's here..

http://www.zealand.org.nz/history.htm

-Ravichandar84 08:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter what that site says. It is unreliable. Please stop using it. Kahuroa 08:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

An Invite
Have noticed your contribution to the article Tamil Bell. It is an interesting article about our Tamil people and the Maori people of Aotearoa. Having travelled to both North and South island, I have found similarities in both our cultures. Regards. Wiki Raja 06:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Rename
Kia Ora Kahuroa. Could you Please rename me from Brian New Zealand, to Brian, on mi Brian | (Talk) 07:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure - give me a while to figger it out. By the way, any luck on the logo for mi? Kahuroa 07:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Chola Bell
A tag has been placed on Chola Bell, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia per CSD g1.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add  on the top of the article and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add  on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the page's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. Sarvagnya 08:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi.. I tagged it coz there's nothing like "Chola bell". It is a hoax and I am not aware that any reliable sources describe such a thing.  If you agree, please revert my tagging of the page and tag it for deletion yourself.  Thanks. Sarvagnya 08:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you mean this 'If you agree, please revert my tagging of the page and tag it for deletion yourself.'? Or did you mean If I DISagree??? Kahuroa 08:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ) you read it right. I did mean "if you agree" revert my tagging and re-tag it yourself... coz.. i guess its easier to convince admins that it is nonsense if the author tags it himself.  and you were the original author.. remember. :)  and when i'm here, let me point out.. I got a grand total of 0 hits on Google scholar and Google books for "Chola bell" and a grand total of 2 hits on Google itself for "Chola bell"(one of it from wikirage.com :)  and the other from a random discussion forum.  so i guess it qualifies as nonsense. Sarvagnya 08:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * and oh..btw.. Google books throws a few interesting links for "Tamil bell" check them out. Sarvagnya 08:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * But Ravichandar84 is the original author. Kahuroa 08:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No. Its you. Sarvagnya 08:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh I see what you mean, I guess it was me in that sense. Re Google Books, the only one that came up for me when I clicked that link was the Kerry Howe book. I have that book. In that particular section he is dealing with debunking various of the weird theories about the settlement of NZ. Actually a very good book Kahuroa 08:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Tamil Bell
Thanks for the reply. I understand that it is good to have constructive criticism. However, this individual has went well beyond that with our articles. Regardless of how many referenced sources along with page numbers we provide for his demands, he continues to blank numerous pages which includes trolling. Furthermore, this individual takes the liberty to specifically target Tamil related articles while pushing his personal POV against Tamil people. Believe me, I am not the only one who has complained about this user several times. Regards. Wiki Raja 22:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

re Just Checking..
Thanks for noticing that. I have never heard of that user, let alone awarded him a award. Brian | (Talk) 00:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Kiwi Article
Yeah, ok. Thanks for explaining. I guess i was just a bit rattled, hence the reason i was a little rude. Cheers. (♠ Mur  chy  ♠) 05:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a proverb of the Māori: a kūmara doesn't need to give itself awards in order to be sweet. Kahuroa 11:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well done sir, you have taken the enjoyment out of Wikipedia for me and i am applying for deletion on my account ans erase any existance of you from my life because you, sir, are a brute who has nothng better to do then prey on people who cannot quite grasp wikipedia ploicies by spending every waking second behind a computer, so woohoo for you.... For shame...... (♠  Mur  chy  ♠) 11:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't accept your crap. Get real. It beggars belief that you claim that you didn't 'quite grasp' that actions like these were against Wikipedia policy:
 * 1) cutting and pasting from websites and claiming it as your own work
 * 2) cutting and pasting from other websites AFTER the previous cuts and pastes had been revealed
 * 3) uploading multiple pictures as your own work
 * 4) creating award images, inserting them into country project pages and then awarding them to yourself
 * 5) logging on under multiple usernames to dole out awards to yourself and praise your work
 * 6) ignoring and deleting comments on your user page asking you to provide verification that you owned the copyright of various images. Get real. Kahuroa 06:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

find and replace
I'm slightly confused by your answer here. Are you saying all i can do is just have it so it recorrects the wrong correction back to the right one?  C t j f 8 3  01:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that is one way to do it, given that find and replace is actioned in order, meaning that mistakes generated by f&rs that come early in your list can be targeted by f&rs that come later. Kahuroa 09:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of New Zealand words
An article that you have been involved in editing, New Zealand words, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. Computer not responding 10:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

5 Brown Elements
If you follow the links in the box on the right hand side of the page, under the Maori heading, to the various 'elements', you will see that they are all new, unsourced articles. Perhaps when this article is deleted they could be speedy deleted, and remember, the power is yours! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.54.75 (talk) 10:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Polynesian diacritics
You might want to comment on the current proposal in the Wikiproject Hawaii MOS ; User:Erudy has posted a "modest proposal" to completely eliminate all diacritics from Hawaiian articles. There's no discussion of it with relation to Māori names and place names, but presumably it would get there eventually, so it would be good if you could post something to support keeping them; right now there are only 4 comments, evenly split. KarlM 10:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Huia article and NZ lowland forests
Hey there. 2 things..1. sorry for promising to do that work on the Huia article and then never getting round to it. 2. I have had a look but have been unable to find an article on NZ indigenous forests and/or Deforestation in NZ. The tragic story of the destruction of New Zealand's lowland forests is one which not many people know and it would be great to tell it by fleshing out a good article on the subject. Do you know if some information in this area exists somewhere on wikipedia? and if not would you be interested in a collaboration? I know at least 2 others who would probably be keen... Cheers, Kotare (talk) 05:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * just remembered that possible NZ wattlebird collaboration I mentioned earlier. Now I have lots of spare time I am ready to rip into one of those articles too. If you're still interested let me know and we can work out which one we want to hit - again I can think of a couple of others who might be interested too. Cheers, Kotare (talk) 05:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

de:Vorlage:Okina
see here. Greetings, --ThT (talk) 03:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)