User talk:Kalariwarrior/Archives/2022/February

Recent edit to kalaripayattu
Bro, Quote on nair caste is there in the article, but quote on chekavar is missing. I added quote for chekavar too and you removed it citing it is apt for chekavar article. Bit you have not removed Nair quote citing it is apt for nair article. Either keep both or remove both.

My opinion is keep both as they are the prominent communities historically into kalaripayattu 2601:14D:8701:9E40:A93D:29FA:D087:2609 (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello there! I stated the reason for reverting your edit earlier. The quote you posted does NOT highlight any specific aspect of Kalaripayattu as a martial art. The quote referring to the Nairs is not there to reference the Nairs, but because it mentions Kalaripayattu in a historical context, eg. "they are taught many tricks of nimbleness and dexterity; there they teach them to dance and turn about and to twist on the ground, to take royal leaps and other leaps and this they learn twice a day as long as they are children and they become so loose jointed and supple and they make them turn their bodies contrary to nature; and when they are fully accomplished in this, they teach them to play with the weapon they are most inclined, some play with bows and arrows, some with poles to become spearmen, but most with swords and are ever practicing."
 * The above quote provides a detailed description of Kalaripayattu in medieval Kerala from a foreign, non-Indian perspective. The fact that the quote happens to mention the Nairs is coincidence. It is not there to represent, glorify or demean the Nairs or any other group.
 * Your quote does not reference any aspect of the practice of Kalaripayattu. Instead, it only refers to a group called the "Silgos," being teachers of Kalaripayattu. You added the word "Chegos," which is not mentioned in the source your provided. There is also no information I can find that says that the "Silgos" in your source is another world for "Chekavar," or that the word "Chegos," which you added, is connected to the Chekavars.
 * Also, I agree, the Ezhavas, Chekavar, Thiyya, etc are very important in Kalaripayattu's history, which is why the Chekavar are mentioned multiple times in the article already, particularly in reference to the Vaddakkan Pattukal. If you can find a reference that the "Silgos," are Chekavars, then that block quote would be an excellent addition to the Chekavar article. I could also use it to add in some additional information to the parts of the Kalaripayattu article that mention the Chekavars, as finding a source for it would allow everyone to freely use any sources that refer to the Chekavar as "Silgos," or "Chegos."
 * This isn't a question of "either keep both or remove both." This article is about Kalaripayattu, the martial art, not about Nairs, Chekavars, or any other group. This article is not meant to glorify or demean any group, but to shed light on the martial art that originated in Kerala that Keralites traditionally practiced. I hope this helped. Kalariwarrior (talk) 15:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

See, there the quote on Barbosa is like a nair promotion, and he explained it as a custom on nair caste, but was not. Either you remove both quotes or if you want to put historical quotes on kalarippayattu, there are n number of them, eg by Foucault 17th century traveler has written on it, or you can take any other modern writing too, Or you have n number of quotes from sangham literature on Kalari. The quote itself looks like a particular caste promotion where the description of a particular caste engaging in Kalari.

And also when coming to the usage silgos, the dutch governer wrote where he is talking about itty achuthn, ayurvedhiv physian from chekavar caste who wrote hortus malabaricus. itty achuthen himself wrote his name in the first page as Itti achuthan chekavar. These are also acknowledged by all the historians and there is no need of a discussion on that.

Also when coming to south kerala, like areas in Kanyakumari and areas near thrivandrum, the southern kalari was solely practiced and protected by nadar caste people. even 10 years back 95% of southern kalari masters hails from nadar caste.Yes there are very few references available on online and other writing for this, but we should respect them for preserving the southern style.2601:14D:8701:9E40:D4D7:6ECE:8BF5:CD6 (talk)
 * Like I said before, the quote is not a "Nair promotion," or any other promotion. This article is about Kalaripayattu, a martial art, not about caste. Casteism and caste politics have no place in this article, and this article has also faced more than enough vandalism and disruptive editing from people trying to demean or glorify one caste group or another. Editors who engage in this behavior are in violation of several Wikipedia policies, including WP:NPOV. For this reason, mentioning of caste groups in the article is kept to a minimum.
 * The fact that Barbosa wrote about the Nairs and not the Chekavar is not something I can control. I found a quality quote from a verifiable source, from a verifiable author, that I could use to show how Kalaripayattu was perceived in medieval times. The quote is not to promote anyone or any group. The idea of "caste promotion" is something that you are seeing, not something that was intentionally put there. If you can find a quote by others from past, I'd love to use them, as long as you can provide a good source that we can use to include it in the article (in accordance with WP:VERIFY. "Modern writing" will not be suitable for usage there, because the whole point of the quote is to show a past, historical perspective on Kalaripayattu. The quote itself does not say that "only the Nairs" practiced Kalaripayattu, nor does it imply that others didn't. In fact, the Chekavars are mentioned several times in the article. They're even mentioned in the header of the article, right after Kalaripayattu as a martial art is defined. In my humble opinion, it seems like you're reading way too much into this.
 * If you can find a quote from a non-Indian source from the past that describes the Kalaripayattu training practices of the Chekavars, Thiyya, Ezhavas, etc, that is from a verifiable source, I'd be happy to use it.
 * Regarding the usage of the word "Silgos" and "Chegos," you'd need to provide a source (in compliance with WP:VERIFY) that verifies the fact that the Dutch governor wrote it as such and meant it as such. You claim that this is "acknowledged by all the historians," so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find a source for your information. There is a need for discussion in all this, and you need to provide a source, because there has been many content disputes in this article before, and a lot of work has gone into removing unsourced information and replacing it with more straightforward, well sourced info. Unverified and unsourced information has to be kept to a minimum in any article. Plus, providing the source will help you prove the information you are trying to add, especially towards those who might want to deny that information because they have ulterior, non-neutral motives.
 * Also, please refrain from reverting edits until this discussion is over. Doing so will result in it being considered an edit war, and will lead to nothing but trouble, so I would rather keep things civil and have a mature discussion about this. :) Kalariwarrior (talk) 17:25, 5 February 2022 (UTC)