User talk:Kameejl/Archive 1

Battles
Hey man, why'd you remove my edit to the Battles page? I suppose it felt a bit like an ad, but you could have at least just reworded it or only removed the bit about it being available for preorder. That was useful information that I felt was missing from the article.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.76.128.71 (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Groove metal and its infinite "synonyms"
Hey by the way have you found any articles or pages stating that groove metal is the same as post-thrash and neo-thrash? If so I would like to take a look at them to see what they have to say. A while back I found a page that claimed that neo-thrash was a groove metal based version of thrash which obviously implies that they aren't the same. Here's the link if you want to take a look at it. The only thing I've noticed on various pages and forums is that many groove metal bands/albums have been called post-thrash, half-thrash, and neo-thrash as if they were synonyms. --Pasajero 17:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have a lot of sources yet. This one (look for neo-thrash) states that neo-thrash "has the Thrash Metal speed, but with an added groove.". So this guy states neo-thrash is fast but groovy (with slower parts).
 * Rockdetector uses both neo-thrash and groove metal separately. But, then again, no definition is given.


 * I feel that groove metal implies groove and metal (obviously :) ), it has to be groovy, achieved by the use of syncopation and medium tempo's. It doesn't matter if a band is a very thrash influenced (as Machine Head, Lamb of God).


 * Bands like Six Feet Under/Brujeria (death/grind influenced), Pantera/Pro-Pain (hardcore influenced), White Zombie (heavy metal/hard rock influenced) all feel very groovy (and metal). I think it's correct to call these bands groove metal. But saying Six Feet Under/Brujeria/White Zombie are post-thrash.. I don't think these bands are mainly influenced by thrash. Post-thrash fits Machine Head, Lamb of God, etc. They are groovy and thrashy. And the other way around, a post-thrash band like The Haunted clearly sounds thrashy but doesn't groove (they often play too fast to be groovy).


 * Just like you said, post-thrash, groove metal, and neo-thrash look as they are used as synonyms. I think post-thrash and groove metal go hand in hand really often, hence they are used together a lot. But not always.


 * In fact I think the term groove might be a stylistic adjuction like explained on the avant-garde metal page.
 * Emmaneul 00:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey?
Would you classify Lamb of God Heavy metal and Groove metal rather than metalcore, someone is threatening to block me because he keeps putting it as metalcore and I revert it so I was wondering if you would back me up please. Skeeker 04:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I could say to you: show him sources, if you can find good sources.

You probably no these already:

http://www.rockdetector.com/artist,5087.sm -> Metalcore/Groove Metal/NWoAHM

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=59 -> Groove Metal/Metalcore

http://www.last.fm/music/Lamb%20of%20god -> metalcore/thrash metal

http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/lamb_of_god -> death metal, thrash metal, heavy metal, groove metal, metalcore http://www.bnrmetal.com/groups/log.htm -> Death Metal, Thrash Metal http://books.google.com/books?id=uIIf03bGyAAC&pg=PA192&ots=ZxLUYnWraL&dq=lamb.of.god+burn.the.priest&sig=ia7jXcDCo7_x4RcKjcHqJS5neis -> NWOAHM

Allmusic

New American Gospel

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:0jfyxqukldse -> Alternative Metal/Death Metal/ Black Metal/Heavy Metal

As The Palaces Burn

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:dzfexq8aldhe -> Death Metal/ Black Metal

Ashes Of The Wake

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:fifwxqtsld0e -> Alternative Metal/Death Metal/ Black Metal/Heavy Metal

Sacrament

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:hxfexqudldse -> Death Metal/ Black Metal / Metalcore (in article)

Metal Observer

New American Gospel

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=3705 -> Death Metal

As The Palaces Burn

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=3233 -> Death Metal

Ashes Of The Wake

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=7134 -> Death Metal

Sacrament

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=11075 -> Metal

I'd say they are metalcore and groove metal with death and thrash influences.

Avant-garde AfD
Hi Emmaneul, I think our debate at this AfD has moved pretty far away from the actual issue, and into philosophical-policy debate territory. I'd be delighted to share opinions about this at length on our talk pages, but I think any futher comments on the actual AfD should be clearly relevant to the merits of the article and its relationship to WP policies, rather than comparisons to other articles. Cheers,  Dei z  talk 05:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am yet to see compelling evidence that this list is in any way encyclopedic. Beyond that, agree to disagree may have to be the way forward.  Dei z  talk 12:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Then show the evidence Emmaneul (Talk) 12:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The evidence... that doesn't exist? Seriously, I think I'm done here.  Dei z  talk 12:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Forgive me, I'm not a native english speaker. Let me rephrase my comment: Please show how the article isn't encyclopedic. If it's clear the article isn't encyclopedic, you could explain why, couldn't you? You could show it to me, and convince me. You could quote text from WP:NOT. On what criteria do you base your comments?


 * I think these kinds of lists are conform the wiki guidelines (WP:LIST), are very useful when doing research on music genres, give a good representation of a genre (certainly for people unfamiliar with a genre). Deleting the AG-list and other similar list would be a great loss for wikipedia. Emmaneul (Talk) 12:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I can quite satisfy your craving for explanation and evidence, we've already gone pretty far towards proving that we have different interpretations of these policies and guidelines. WP:NOT disallows mere lists of internal links, the whole concept of grouping various metal bands as "avant-garde" is incredibly subjective and the referencing and verification of those bands as such is, in many cases, very shaky or completely non-existent. If you look at the example lists at WP:LIST, you'll note how they offer context, further information, sources and or significant structure that aids navigation around Wikipedia. I'd have no problem with bands who can be verified as being described as avant-garde by reliable sources being listed in a category, but lists in the article namespace have to be encyclopedic, and this one simply isn't.  Dei z  talk 13:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

editing
I do know how many crap articles. And the bands that I make are not because I'm a fan of them, but because the members of that band went on to start great bands. Cypher is a great band. There are many sites with them on it. Just look.

editing
They are too worthy. There are many other bands out there that have less information than these guys. They won prestigous awards and have toured with great bands. I've looked at some of the revisions and editings that you have made and it looks like you are trying to make an edit just because you want to see it a certain way. You cannot speak for masses, you are only editing things to your liking.

Alchemist discography
The discography template looks fine to me, better than a clunky table and a lot easier to edit! What's your reasons for keeping the table? --AusBruce 07:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm easy mate, just curious about your reasons :) --AusBruce 03:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

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flag icons
Just wanted to say "cheers"! I'm pretty new here and still have lots to learn (as is more than evident, I'm sure)! Sue Wallace 21:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Epic
I'm with you, epic in itself is pretty much entirely POV. I think what we should do is get some consensus as to maybe initially what tracks people regard as being epics, find out the similarities between those tracks and perhaps keep the item to what people generally consider to be epic. Other than that, it's going to be really quite difficult to get something that doesn't appear POV and can have more surity in not being deleted.

I think things like track length, the way songs build, use of multiple music sections is a given...but then "Painkiller" by Judas Priest is however many minutes long, doesn't really change huge hugely but some people would regard it as a mini-epic. I think we need some consensus on this one.

Drivenapart 09:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

System of a Down
Hey, good job on System of a Down. It looks much better as of now. Cheers! ^^

ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 12:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Dying Fetus
As you may or may not know, Trey Williams is the newest addition to the band. There's currently a debate going on now as to wether or not the article should be merged with the Dying Fetus mainpage. I say no, because fans like myself might randomly wander on the page, see Trey Williams listed as a current member, get curious and click on the link to learn more about him. I guess the problem is, there's only 2 sentences for it, and some user named Pharmboy is saying that there needs to be more. Well, I don't know where to look for any more info; I just put what the DF website said, in my own words.

Another thing: why is the link to brutal death metal no more on DF's main page under the genre listings? It's still there on the main page for death metal.

If you could help me out at all, I'd be very appreciative of your assistance. If you aren't able to, thanks anyway. :-) Dark Executioner 16:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

After Forever
I don't have a problem with you listing After Forever as Gothic Metal if that's what ever one ends up agree with. But most of the sources you listed are not very good sources. Encyclopaedia Metallum which you used is one of them. They have listed to many band as the wrong kind of metal. After FOrever has really changed there whoel sound into Symphonic and some what Prog sound. So let's see what comes from the talk and go form there. If people agree list them. If they don't leave them off. Truefanmetal July 22nd, 2007

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RE: Sepultura metalcore source
I think it is still implying that there is a hint of metalcore in them, but I do see your point. There is one wikipedian, User:Dark Executioner, who I belive is trying to find a source for metalcore which him and I had a bit of a fiasco about, but I belive it is settled. Maby see what he thinks on the situation. T see more on what he had discussed with me see this because somewhere in the message he has something about this source. If he agrees with you, I have no problem with you deleting the source. Thank you. Skeeker &#91; Talk &#93; 20:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I don't know why this is added to the above barnstar, but I don't know how to fix it either, sorry. Skeeker  &#91; Talk &#93; 20:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cruachan (band)
I've left you a comment at Articles for deletion/Cruachan (band). Please note that Myspace is not a reliable source. -- Boricua  e  ddie  18:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

List of gothic metal bands
If the bands listed in that article are truly gothic metal bands you should have NO trouble finding better sources stating so. Many times in the past I've caught several people trying to sneak bad info into Wiki articles by citing metal-archives.com, or sometimes they're citing good info but were just too lazy to search for a good source. In the end you can argue all you want about why citations to metal-archives.com are "good enough", but citing a website that sometimes has correct info is against the Wiki concept of citing information to establish it's credibility. And like I said before, if those bands are truly gothic metal bands, you should not have any trouble finding better sources stating so. --Leon Sword 22:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Instead of reverting me why don't you find better sources. I find your mentality of keeping those "good enough sources until someone finds better reliable sources" disturbing. I am not the only editor who has expressed concern about the credibility of metal-archives, in fact, someone had already expressed their concern before on the List of gothic metal bands talkpage. Oh and by the way, there is in fact a Wiki policy and a guideline saying questionable or "dubious" sources cannot be used on any articles that are not about the sources themselves, see WP:V and WP:RS. --Leon Sword 00:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What do you mean it was all fine before I came along, no one but you has complained about me removing those sources. Please assume good faith. --Leon Sword 02:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well like I said before MA sometimes has correct or truthful info. I'm not saying MA is unreliable without reason, I myself visit that page often and I know firsthand that even though they moderate the information that is posted, libel manages to get through every once in a while. Also when it comes to genres, I'm sure you already know how heated some debates get on whether so and so bands belong to this genre or not. For that reason MA is not the best source to cite, because its credibility will almost always be questioned, and what we're trying to establish here on Wiki by citing sources is credibility. --Leon Sword 00:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I see you care about this list.So I have two questions. 1.Is Rockdetector reliable enough? I mean within temptation gothic metal/gothic rock? Or paradise lost - death metal, hard rock?! 2.I want you to give your oppinion about early paradise lost (see talk page and history).You may answer me on my talk page. thanks. Xr 1 07:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Infobox Guitarist
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Metallica-Speed metal?
Ok. That is true, but if Kill 'Em All (as a single album) has a bit of speed metal, you could add that Metallica is a Country music, because on Load and Reload there are few pure county songs, but a typical speed metal song they have never done. I don't think there should be written every single music sub-genre in the Infobox. But just leave it, cause it is senceless to debate if some band belongs to some genre or not. --Lycantrophe 14:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Flag icon use
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Your recent edits
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RE: Machine Head infobox genres
Okay, thank you, I just request that on the genres we keep the word "metal" uncapitolized, I think it looks kind of tacky, and I think there is a rule on that. By the way when you sign your messages, where it says talk next to your name, it re-directs to User talk:Emmanuel (sorry if I misspelled that), just so you are aware of that. Skeeker &#91; Talk &#93; 22:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, that sounds good. Skeeker  &#91; Talk &#93; 20:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Bestial Warlust
Thanks for thinking the article should be kept. I made it and it may need some tweaking, but the band definitely deserves a page here on Wikipedia.Navnløs 18:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

October 2007
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Greetings
I am searching for those knowledgeable about metal...you seem to know what you're talking about. If you ever need any help with an article let me know and I will take a look and give you an opinion, and may offer my help if I think you're correct. All I ask is a similar favor.Navnløs 18:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, so I can try to help you with your death metal article, but I warn you that although i am an expert on heavy metal in general, death metal is not one of my specialties and I'm not a huge lover of the genre. I like old school death metal and some mid era death metal, but my favorite metal genres are black metal, viking metal and power metal.  I think the article wikipedia has on death metal is already good, but it could definitely be helped.  Now, there is no doubt that death metal was influenced by thrash metal and even some black metal.  Possessed is definitely the first death metal band in my opinion.  I think you have a great article going for you (I read it), but why is like the last half of it about black metal?  I'm guessing this is just some sort of mistake.  Starting with "Another band that can be considered pioneers of the genre was the Swedish band Bathory, led by Thomas Forsberg" the rest of your article is about black metal.  Then the next section "Later History" continues with black metal.  But anyways I would definitely love to help in any way.Navnløs 21:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sarcófago genre list.
Hello. I have reverted your revert to Sarcófago; Per WP:MUSTARD and WP:ALBUM genres are not to be capitalized and should be seperated by commas. ~ | twsx | talkcont | 15:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please re-read the links i gave you. Edits reverted. ~ | twsx | talkcont | 14:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Confusion about a few things
First, do you know why the list of melodic death metal bands was deleted? Also, why was the List of avant-garde metal musical groups deleted as well?
 * One more thing, User:Twsx keeps editing the music genre boxes to decapitalize and put commas between genres, as you know, and I don't think this is correct, not to mention it looks ugly and as far as I know for the longest time all music pages capitalize the genres in the music boxes and put breaks between them. Should this user be reported for continual editing of the music infoboxes?  I keep correcting his edits and he reverts them.Navnløs 18:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice...I had a huge argument with Twsx (you can see the conversation in whole on his talk page if you want). We'll see what happens.Navnløs 18:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, apparently the war never ends. He still wants to edit it the way he does and I still want to edit it the way I do.  I have taken this up with WP:ANI.  I want a clear consensus to be reached on whether the line break or comma break should be used between genres in the music infoboxes.  And it better be my way...I mean the comma break looks sloppy and ugly, whereas the line break looks ordered in my opinion.  I know its a small thing but its really pissing me off!Navnløs 19:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:ProfessorNuts.jpg
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So you know
I appreciate you helping to clean up User:Twsx's mess. It seems the pages he is repeatedly changing are Sarcofago, Bathory, Amon Amarth, and now Anthrax. Unfortunately, it is my fault he keeps changing these since he saw in my contributions that I worked on them. It seems like harassment almost.Navnløs 22:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

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Anon user violating 3RR
As you've requested, I have done some research, please see WP:AN3. Kameejl (Talk) 15:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I am currently preoccupied with other issues but will look at this in the next day or two if nobody else has done so. Stifle (talk) 15:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed
Most pages do use line breaks. Squash the comma break rebellion we must. Navnløs 19:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Could I just point out to the both of you that "break rebellion we must" is a rather derogative way to talk about users who do use commas? There is no such thing as a "rebellion" and you don't need to "break" anyone... WP:CIVIL. Scar ian  Talk  22:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't take it too seriously. And he was referring to "comma break". Kameejl (Talk) 22:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Comma breaks" - my apologies. Scar ian  Talk  22:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Genre seperation.
According to WP:ALBUM, genres should be seperated with commas. I know it doesn't refer to musical acts/artists, but I think it makes the genre section more comfortable to read (and using the line breaks just makes the genre section too long). I believe this method of seperation is regarded as the "correct way" by the Wikipedia policy. ~MagnoliaPenn 01:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this user that lazy that their eyes can't move down to see the rest of the genres? It only makes the genre section longer by one or two lines.  Not to mention, evcerything else in the music infobox is listed with line breaks, so to make one section use comma breaks is distracting to the eyes, as far as I'm concerned. Navnløs 17:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It has nothing to do with being lazy. Just because you "prefer" this method doesn't mean you can revert and change edits as you like. I think this method is utterly stupid and isn't "better" than commas seperation. ~MagnoliaPenn 19:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Genre delimiters
Hello. You might be interested in giving your opinion at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style. ~ | twsx | talkcont | 11:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I've been talking on the standardizing genre delimiters page,Template_talk:Infobox_Musical_artist. I know you've put a lot of work in there, and the debate is getting crazy. It just needs to be solved and I think I made some good points for line breaks. Also, User:Twsx hopefully knows that his link is not where the real deabte is going on, but at the link I just put. Navnløs 21:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I wanted you to know that I'm not so sure about the associated acts thing you were pushing for, but the former members hide box, is GREAT. That is an awesome tool, and should be instituted. Navnløs 22:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Greetings from A Sniper
Hi Kameejl. It would be my pleasure to assist, if I'm able. I was around at the subgenre's birth and involved in it intimately from a business/career point of view until the first half of the 90s. Just let me know... A Sniper 18:27, 06 November 2007 (UTC)

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