User talk:Karol Langner/Archive 1

Welcome!
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;. Four tildes (&#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --JYolkowski 22:18, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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Knowledge Management: Ethics
Noteiced you removed the category. Ethics is an important consideration in the field of Knowledge Management. Many 'in power' use Knowledge as a tool to control either subordinates or customers. There is considerable literature, often from Management Consultyants, who advocate using Knowledge to gain a commercial advantage often under the guise of efficiency. rgds J Johnmarkh 16:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

CSD
Under with WP:CSD should William Bentinck 1709 be speedily deleted? &mdash;Ben Brockert (42) UE News  21:32, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * I meant to move it to William Bentinck, 2nd Duke of Portland, which was already link fro mthe disambig at William Bentinck, and I have done that now... was that the right thing?
 * Yep, sounds good to me. &mdash;Ben Brockert (42) UE News  08:04, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ashmore Green
Hi, you made a change in the formatting in Ashmore Green which I've reverted because all of the other articles in the surrounding area use the same format (it wasn't me who came up with it by the way), and the full sections are more ugly. -- Joolz 00:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * OK Karol

Uwe Kils
hallo Karol - I wanted the crippeled version erased, which made no sence - we would like to have it as a referencepoint for teacher for the Wikiversity. I added a link to information on the page - keep up with your fine work Uwe Kils 21:03, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

CSD
Heya, please read through Criteria for speedy deletion, and don't mark articles other than those in the categories listed there as speedy deletion candidates. Thanks. --W(t) 08:48, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course... sorry :| Karol 08:51, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Polish Wikipedians' notice board
Zapraszam.--Witkacy 21:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Physics
Csezc. I've already recategorized something like 300 or 400 physics articles. The main Category:Physics used to have about 300 articles in it, and so did Category:Quantum mechanics. I thought I did pretty well. Anyway I strongly suggest broadening the scope of Wikiproject:Physics to include general physics discussion, not just categorization as it now implies. linas 13:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Woman composers
Hello! I noticed that you added the category Women composers to some articles. Did you notice the discussion on Categories for deletion/Log/2005 June 15? I don't know the latest details, but I think that this category should be deleted... --Missmarple 18:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I just noticed the same. The result of that discussion was to delete the category. In general, Wikipedia does not promote gender bias, therefore it does not subdivide a category for a profession into subcategories by gender. Please put those people in Category:Composers instead. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; June 28, 2005 10:31 (UTC)
 * I see... this is a really silly policy. Nonetheless I will abide :| Karol June 28, 2005 16:19 (UTC)

Witold Lutosławski
That image of Lutosławski is just the job, thank you. How did you go about securing it as public domain? I'm currently working on extending the article about Messiaen; can you give me any advice (or even better, do you know of an image we could use)? Best regards. --RobertG &#9836; talk 30 June 2005 08:26 (UTC)


 * I understand; thanks for the info. Since you have permission to use these images of Polish composers, can I make a special request (with no urgency) for an image for Andrzej Panufnik? - another 20th century composer I know something about and whose tiny current article I intend to extend one day.  --RobertG &#9836; talk 30 June 2005 09:05 (UTC)

anti-Polonism

 * Moglbys dac glos na zostawienie - Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism dzieki--Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:29 (UTC)

Degenerated energy levels
I've never heard of "degenerated" energy levels before, although degenerate energy levels are a topic I'm quite familiar with. Do you have a reference for common use of the former term? -- Tim Starling 00:38, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Getting Psychotherapy into This Week's Improvement Drive
Hi there! I noticed that at one time or another you helped contribute to the article on Psychotherapy. As it stands this article could use a lot of help, and thus I've taken the liberty of trying to get it to be the focus of a week's improvement drive. All we need to get it for a week's worth of focus and improvement is enough votes, so go to Psychotherapy's vote page and help out this very needing article! JoeSmack (talk) 18:15, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Astor Piazzolla
Image:Astor Piazzolla.jpg is identified as fair use, being an album jacket or single, but you don't identify the album, and there is no text within the image. It has already been used in Astor Piazzolla, where it is simply identified as an image of him playing the bandoneon, not as an album jacket. This is probably creeping out of the realm of fair use.

Is this, indeed, the entire jacket of an album, or is it a scan of part of an album jacket? And, in either case, what album? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:52, August 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi! Concerning this image, I found it on Amazon here, and so took it as an album cover, but in fact I can't seem to identify it as a cover now that I try. I have found the same image, however, on other pages ( and ). I see that I acted hastily - so what should I do now? Karol 06:15, August 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * There are a few choices. If you think it's likely that there is a fair use justification for it as simply a "found image", you can make your case. Frankly, though, I think it would be better to track down something this clearly is a Piazzolla album cover with his picture, upload that over this one, make clear identifying comments, and then look at anywhere it is used & update captions appropriately. And, of course, you can always report it on WP:CP yourself, indicating that you added it in good faith but now aren't sure it falls within fair use policy. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:29, August 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * Is the present description OK temporarily, until I come into terms with where it's from or provide more fair use arguments? Karol 07:11, August 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * I know from experience that the people who patrol pictures for copyright purposes won't consider this OK as it stands; I can't really give you their OK, or tell you how long it will take them to get around to looking at this particular image. I'm just giving you a heads-up because I know from experience that this will be challenged. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:22, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Image:Kolakowski.jpg
haie karol,

thanks you changing the tag of the image. I dont know if it is important to have a source for "fair use" Images as we dont have this on de. I just wanted to use it on de and PD looked good just without source not possible! For GNUFDL, PD, cc-by or stuff like this you have to give an information about the source! ..... fair use no idea! ... CU ...Sicherlich talk 07:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Government Warehouse
Please review and contribute to the discussions at Talk:Government Warehouse and Votes for deletion/List of the Government Warehouse's contents. Uncle G 13:20:35, 2005-08-10 (UTC)

Witold Lutosławski images
Hello Karol. Sorry to trouble you. I have submitted the Lutoslawski article to FAC and an objection has been raised requesting evidence of the copyright status of two of the images you uploaded. I see you're on vacation; I'm posting this in the hope that you see it and have the chance to provide such evidence (I believe you have emails stating that the images have been released into the public domain). Can you help clear this up, please? Kind regards. --RobertG &#9836; talk 09:53, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I appreciate it so much. It seems Carnildo will be happy if you paste a copy of each email onto the relevant image description page.  Can you kindly do that and let the FAC know you've done so?  I know this is a chore when you're supposed to be on Wikivacation!  --RobertG &#9836; talk 19:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Welcome back! Hope you had a good vacation.  As for the Lutoslawski image, why not paste the relevant bits of both the emails into the image page (then they'll at least always be in the history), and leave the photographer credit there?  That seems the easiest and most comprehensive solution!  Thanks for your help on this!  --RobertG &#9836; talk 15:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

International Society for the History of Rhetoric
The current article text seems to have been largely taken from the ISHR homepage. While there is no copyright notice there, neither is there are release of the text under the GFDL. Would you be willing to rewrite the piece to avoid potential copyright problems? You seem to be a responsible editor, so I'd rather not send your article to WP:CP if it can be avoided. Thanks! --Alan Au 20:11, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh I see, this looks like the product of a disambiguation of ISHR. Sorry, didn't recognize this from the edit summaries.  --Alan Au 20:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Math-stub
Hi Karol. I have a request. When create an article about a mathematician, it is good to use mathbiostub instead of math-stub. Then my bot will insert that article in the List of mathematicians rather than in the List of mathematical topics. Thanks a lot, Oleg Alexandrov 23:10, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * And if you add the Category:??? births and same for deaths, my bot will put that info in the List of mathematicians too. Oleg Alexandrov 23:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Requesting comments on template alteration
Hello. I see you are using one or more of the User instruments templates in your Babel box. Inspired by some recent developments, I want to rework all the templates in there (including ones used on user pages), to make them more like the regular Babel templates. However, I thought I should hear from the people this would affect before actually doing it. Please weigh in at User:Ddawson/User instruments. Ddawson 10:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Invitation to join Wikiprojects:Philosophy
Banno 00:40, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

cleanupism
hi. I saw you tagged antiterrorism for clean-up. I agree. I was thinking someone else with an opinion on what perhaps the article should say would come along and make changes. you know, wik-evolution. I'v become insecure, tho, lately, that stuff that I create on wikipedia will get (ultimately) deleted. can you tell me if there are guidelines for determining if something has been "cleaned up"? I'll probably try to make the article better, but I think the best thing for it would be for other people to jump in and try to make it into something they think is appropriate. I don't know what the best way to attract people to do so is. lemme know if you know anything about time frames for clean-up tagz. thankz, dzzno logic2 20:31, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Karol, what is your criterion for using cleanup tags? For example the state (thermodynamic) article; i.e. how can you put a clean up tag on one paragraph? Why not just cleanup what you perceive to be as ‘dirty’, and then move on to something else? A cleanup tag makes the article look broken to the floating researcher. Thanks: --Wavesmikey 20:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The charter is here. (Relating to Esperanza)
Hello Karol Langner, the Charter for Esperanza is up. Take a looksie :) R  e  dwolf24  (talk) 02:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Your unsourced images
Where did you get the images from? If you can minimally provide the immediate source that you got the images from, it may then be possible to assess whether we can claim fair use on the images. Cheers, JYolkowski // talk 20:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Regarding the David Bohm image, I've removed no source because there's now a source. It may still get deleted far in the future because we don't know the purpose of the original image (e.g. was it a promotional-type photograph, in which case we can definitely claim fair use, was it a news wire photo, which might be more dubious, etc.).  This image seems to be pretty prevalent on the web, and there are a lot of sites with it; you might want to e-mail the webmaster of one of them to see where they got the image.  If we can find that out, then we should be able to come up with a solid rationale.  JYolkowski // talk 02:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Image:David Bohm.jpg - the "most original" source, I think, is here. What does this qualify for?
 * Discussed above.
 * Image:Lowdin.gif - this is from this file. What does that qualify for? Karol 08:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, might qualify for fair use as a promotional photo. However, in order to be sure, we probably need to do some more research as to the original source of the image.
 * Image:Kolakowski.jpg - this is from here, which is copyrighted. I have written to the copyright holder indicated and asked for permission. Should I do anything else? Karol 09:01, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * That's probably good enough.
 * Image:Astor Piazzolla.jpg - this is from here. I have no idea what to do with this. Karol 09:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The link doesn't work either.
 * Image:Karel Ancerl.jpg - this if from here, in french. I think it's a free site, though. Karol 09:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, this one seems like it's a fairly widely distributed photograph, so probably qualifies for fair use as a promotional photo. It would probably be useful to determine where the site that you got the image from obtained the image.
 * Image:Balaton.gif - this is from here. What should I do? Karol 09:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Replace it with a free image. It shouldn't be too difficult to create a new map; I've tagged it with fairusereplace so maybe someone will notice it, or maybe I'll attempt to create a map next week or so.  JYolkowski // talk 01:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * JYolkowski // talk 01:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Esperanza made less bureaucratic
Hello again, I have (unilatterly) taken away the 'assembly' idea, as per my reasons at that edit summary and per Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Charter. I have left the admin general, as some leadership is good. Now, all you have to do is be a member to establish consensus, the whole assembly idea is gone. Also, I have added an advisory committee, of four members, with limited power besides watching over the admin general and making sure he doesn't do anything stupid. Please look at the ammended charter, and I would love a comment. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 00:21, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The last time I'm spamming you all with Esperanza stuff
Hello Karol Langner. As you may or may not know, there have been some troubles with Esperanza. So now, as a last ditch to save the community, please vote at Esperanza/Reform on all neccisary polls. P.S. I'm very sorry for spamming you all with these messages, and this will be the last time. I recommend putting ESP on your watchlist. Cheers and please look at that, let's stop the civil war then. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 02:47, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hyperstition
Good point. Fair enough! semiconscious ( talk  ·  home) 23:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Stargazing
because i replaced the content of Stargazing with a stub about the album. the previous content was bordering on an essay about stargazing being a great hobby. i guess we could put


 * this article is about the album Stargazing. For information on the practice of looking at the stars, see Astronomy.

or something similar. i'm not sure if Astronomy is the right article to refer to or not, but i dont think Stargazing's previous content warranted an article. i also thought, if anyone objected to the removal of content, moving my content and chaning the discog link to Stargazing (album) would be easy. Nateji77 18:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Watched articles
Hi. I'm not sure where to find the answer to my question, so I decided to ask you: is it possible to check who has a certain article on their watchlist(s)? Karol 17:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * No, it isn't possible. That would be a violation of privacy since most people will want to keep secret which articles they watch, and would also aid vandalism if vandals could find which articles were watched by no-one. Angela. 17:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I actually asked because I noticed there's an unwatched pages page (turns out to be empty). What's that about then? Karol 18:00, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know why that's there. It seems a very bad idea to me. Wikipedia is running on an alpha version of MediaWiki, so there are often unannounced new features which appear and then disappear again. I've no idea if this one is going to stay and I've seen no discussion about it. Angela. 19:40, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Seems it didn't last long. Special:Unwatchedpages is now just an error message. Angela. 16:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Koncert fortepianowy
Trochę po Tobie poprawiłem, ale popracuj nad tym, bo na razie to "odstawiłeś fuchę" Drozdp

Nie wiem czy piszesz poważnie, ale załóżmy że tak. Fucha - praca wykonana poza normalnymi godzinami, szybko i nie dokładnie. W en wiki koncet fortepianowy jest szeroko i dokładnie opisany, wiec dlaczego w pl wiki ma być byle jak? Pozdrowienia i powodznie w pracy nad polską wersja Koncertu fortepianowego. Drozdp

Hello Spamlist!
Ah, my first ever spam mass produced and mailed to the spamlist. Well first of all let me re-state that we have an irc channel, #wp-esperanza, and its been rather empty, so I'd appreciate it if you come, even if you just idle about. Now, the evil polls have closed, and I left a justification note for running the evil polls. Nothing has really changed, but at least I have somewhat of a consensus. I hope to figure out a way to overturn my power to JCarriker somehow, I'll figure out a way :-) Meanwhile, I've been busy reforming the mediation system where I am the chairman now, er, acting chairman. Enjoy your spam, with extra vikings. R  e  dwolf24  (talk) 00:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Resignation
Hello spam list, look at this. Essjay is the new leader of Esperanza, and I'm interested in seeing how he runs it. I'm busy doing other work... Please comment at that talk page there. I will still probably run the spamlist though. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 22:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Fruitpunch
Hi, I noted your vote over at AfD, and am not quite clear which point of WP:MUSIC you're saying they meet. If you could justify it in the nomination, I think it would make my decision and anyone who comes to it later's decision much easier, at the moment I can't see any point on which they pass the requirements. Thank you for your time. Mallocks 20:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You wrote: Hi. Well, if you look on their website, you can see they play regular live shows in Hong Kong. They have a song on a relatively major occasional album, and they published an album in September (currently a new release on Monitor Records. I actually downloaded one of their mp3s... and they suck :) Karol 05:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Granted, but point 2 is "Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in a large or medium-sized country", which Hong-Kong doesn't qualify for, and a single album fails to meet point 3, "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)". Also the monitor-records website records their album as being on the Folkpunk Music label, which if you look at the album section of fruitpunch's website, you'll see is their own, making them self-released. Mallocks 08:52, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Advisory Committee election deadline set
Our new admin general, Essjay, has set the date for the advisory committee elections, that date being October 7th. By UTC it is October 5th right now. So see WP:ESP/E for voting in two days, and add yourself to the list if you're interested in running. On a personal note, I'm considering running, as I only resigned as admin general because of time. I'm sure I could help out on the advisory committee... Anywho, watchlist that page, and be sure to read the voting method too. Regards, R  e  dwolf24  (talk) 01:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

deletion tag
I took down the tag because it didn't have a reason listed and wasn't an empty category. De-populate the category and re-list with the criteria Page deletion requested by original page author, duplicates previous category. That or something like it should work. &Euml;vilphoenix Burn! 20:03, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Esperanza Spam
Hello Esperanzians! A few announcements.

The Advisory Committee election results are in. In tranch A are Acetic Acid and Flcelloguy. In tranch B are Ryan Norton and Bratsche.

My other annoouncement is that our founder, JCarriker, has founded Esperanza's sister project, Wikipediology. I have written two essays here (my name is Matt Binder). My essays are under Teenage Wikipedians and Anon Editors.

On behalf of myself and Jay Carriker and the other wikipediologists, I would appreciate it if you were to join.

Cheers Esperanza! R e  dwolf24  (talk&mdash;How's my driving?) 23:34, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey, no need to quit Esperanza! Alphax &tau;&epsilon;&chi; 13:13, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * One of the goals of Esperanza is to make sure people don't burn out... don't burn out! Alphax &tau;&epsilon;&chi; 13:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

User page Vandalism

 * Copied from User_talk:Psy guy

Hi, just wanted to thank you for reverting the vandalism from my page. Karol 07:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem, but I think Redwolf24 is mad that he did not get to do it! Psy guy (talk) 12:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Self-organized criticality
Hi Karol,

Thanks for your contributions to self-organized criticality: it was a good idea to add it to the Fractals and Dynamical systems categories.

I decided to restore the Physics category though. I know it's a bit general but I felt it was necessary since it doesn't fit well into one sole field of physics (it has origins in both statistical and condensed matter physics, plus relevance to other fields such as solar/plasma physics, etc.).

I like your homepage here! Great to see someone whose interests are so wide.

Best wishes, &mdash; Joe aka WebDrake 13:52, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Further to your comments on my talk page, I agree that SOC is not appropriate to belong to Category:Physics. I've therefore revised it so the article now belongs to: category:applied and interdisciplinary physics; category:dynamical systems; category:statistical mechanics; category:fractals; and category:interdisciplinary fields. That seems like a nice summary. :-)

One other thing that might be interesting to you: in checking out appropriate categories, I noted a discrepancy between the spelling of the article Non-equilibrium thermodynamics and the associated category, which lacked the hyphen. So I did a host of minor updates and the upshot is that the system is now using Category:Non-equilibrium thermodynamics, bringing the spellings into line. I left the former category as a redirect page, but it should probably be deleted.

Best wishes, &mdash; WebDrake 18:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Karol &mdash; nice to see your update to the Per Bak article. Can you send me an email? There's a couple of things I'd like to discuss but it's too unwieldy to do via alternate message boards. Best, &mdash; Joe aka WebDrake 19:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Spelling
Thanks for the spell check, when will I ever lurn :-)--JK the unwise 16:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Interpretation of quantum mechanics
I've added a bit to Interpretation of quantum mechanics. I was hoping that you could look at it and view the talk page, and offer an opinion on what information we should present in the article, and how this information should be organized. Thanks for your time. RK 15:43, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Lester Bowie
There's room for disagreement, perhaps, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of point "sectionising" an article when all but a couple lines are in the one section ("Life and career") (see Use subheadings sparingly). Note also that headings should be uncapitalised except for proper nouns (and, of course, the initial letter). --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

One month old edit on Logic
This edit, which looks robot assisted, turned single spaces after title headings into double spaces. I've fixed it now; be more careful in future. --- Charles Stewart 14:14, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for saying it looked like a robot: I would not have been so short if I had thought it was done by hand. Your edit inserted a line between each title/subheading which was not followed by a double-CR: in the many cases where the title was followed by Main template this produced unattractive output: it looked to me like aother instance of a non-properly-tested robot being let loose on WP. --- Charles Stewart 17:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

microscopic definitons of heat and work
I come to you as the statistical mechanics specialist of the physics project.

If we're examining the question of the specific improvements brought by statistical mechanics over thermodnamics, it appears the most important one has got to be the determination of the relation between the entropy and the microscopic states of the system.

The most general formula for the entropy of a system is the following:


 * $$S = -k_B \sum_n P_n log (P_n)$$, where $$P_n$$ is the probability that the system lies in state n.

This one is in the statistical mechanics article, although it is not explained there. It is not in the entropy article. I think it should be in both, with some comments in the entropy article.

That this definition lacks in the entropy article is problematic: the definition there is just a subset of it that works only in the case where all micro-states are equally likely. Note that in the case where the system is distributed according to the Maxwell-Boltzman distribution, micro-states are not all equally likely. This alone makes it necessary to put a high emphasis on the more general defintion in the entropy article, because it means the simplified definition that is currently in the article only works for calculations in the micro-canonical ensemble (see statistical mechanics).

After the microscopic definition of entropy, the next most important fundamental improvement brought up by statistical mechanics is probably the microscopic definitions of heat and work. If $$E_n$$ is the energy of micro-state n:
 * $$\delta W = \sum_n P_n dE_n$$
 * $$\delta Q = \sum_n E_n dP_n$$

Remarks: since the internal energy is its average energy $$U = \sum_n P_n E_n$$, it follows immediately that $$dU = \delta W + \delta Q$$. It is also quite important that it appears clearly that all three relations above are valid even far away from thermodynamic equilibrium. Another important thing: in the classical limit these expressions become integrals rather than discrete sums.

I can do the work of adding these points to articles. However I think they deserve some emphasis, and would like to have your opinion on where this information is best put, since I think I can benefit from your knowledge on how statistical mechanics are organized here.

Maybe microscopic defintions of heat and work already somewhere and I missed it... In which case I really think they deserve more emphasis.ThorinMuglindir 01:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Watchlist
Hi Karol. If you add talk page to your watchlist, the related article will be what actually shows up when you view all pages on your watchlist, regardless of whether that page exists or not. Changes to either that page or the talk page will show up when you view your watchlist normally. Angela. 15:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)