User talk:Kathovo/Archive 3

List of killed, threatened or kidnapped Iraqi academics
Hi Rafy. i've created User:Rafy/List of killed, threatened or kidnapped Iraqi academics - there's a lot of work to do to bring it to a 2011/2012 WP standard - what was acceptable in 2005/2006 does not pass so easily today. Although arguing by precedent is meant to be avoided, List of Guantanamo Bay detainees and List of commanders of Guantanamo Bay Naval Base both exist. IMHO the guidelines about list pages must surely accept a list of hundreds of academics killed in Iraq if these two lists are accepted. As you can tell by my slow response, you won't be able to expect a fast response from me if you are able to work on this. If the community of en.wikipedia Iraq editors is big enough, republishing the article may be feasible with editorial support from the community.

None of the references are webcitation'ed. Some might just be old enough to be in archive.org - AFAIK archive.org normally only publishes stuff that is at least 5 yrs old. Boud (talk) 22:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It would make sense to integrate the list article with Violence against academics in post-invasion Iraq, avoiding too much overlap. The BRussells Tribunal does have some updates, but a bit (or a lot) of work is needed to trace through to standard WP type sources - e.g. http://www.brussellstribunal.org/pdf/AcademicsDossier12.pdf - seems to be a collation of recent articles that are sort of related. In some sense, it's a third-party source - it reproduces articles that it deems reliable. But IMHO it always makes most sense to go the source directly if possible. Boud (talk) 22:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * There seems to be a book: Cultural Cleansing - Why Museums were Looted, Libraries Burned and Academics Murdered, Edited by: Raymond Baker, Shereen T. Ismael and Tareq Y. Ismael, Pluto Press 2009, which could be mentioned somewhere (modulo the usual debate about notability). Boud (talk) 23:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * When is a list wp-notable? I have nothing against windmills, but if 20 or 30 or so national/regional lists of windmills are each individually WP:NOTABLE, then any claims that a list of killed, threatened or kidnapped Iraqi academics is not notable would push en.wikipedia demographic bias to an absurd level. Can anyone really claim that European windmills are more notable than Iraqi academics? Many individual elements of the lists only point to external links, not to en.wikipedia articles. Hopefully the Wikipedian response to the article if/when you have time to rework it will be more reasonable this time. Boud (talk) 11:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Rafy and sorry for the late response. I was unaware of the list on enwiki and will see if I can get involved in any of the discussions.....--Aa2-2004 (talk) 19:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Orthodox Christian Map adjustment request
Hi, Rafy. Excellent job on the Orthodox Christianity map:. Would you mind a minor update if you have a chance? There are at least 1-2 million Oriental Orthodox in the Kerala state of India (Southwestern tip of India), which makes up 4% of the state's population (of 33 million total). The state is 19% Christian, most of whom trace their heritage to St. Thomas the Apostle; see Saint_Thomas_Christian. Thanks a lot. Joehoya3 (talk) 20:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)Joehoya3

Request about J map
I saw that you have converted the PNG J map I did to SVG. This might be a good idea, but I can see that the gradient is not correctly visible: The level 2-10% should be lighter and closer to white, between levels 10-30 with 30-60 there is almost no difference. For the SVG version become better than the PNG is important this detail. I can't do it cause the program for SVG is very complicated to me. Please, I request you fix it. Thank you.--Maulucioni (talk) 14:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have improved the gradient levels as requested. SVG is pretty easy and can spare time editing and re-editing images, trust me on this.;)--  R a f y  talk 00:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the adjustment. I tried to open the image and I used CorelDraw X3, but I see an uncomprehensible image.--Maulucioni (talk) 05:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's more convenient to use Inkscape from my experience. You can start by ungrouping objects and picking colours from below. More interestingly, try the edit paths by node button to edit and modify nodes. The same basemap could be used for other purposes.--  R a f y  talk 17:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Your image
It says "Sanjak of Zor" It should be "Deir ez-Zor" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I simply copy-pasted the name of the article at enwiki. I have corrected the name however.--  R a f y  talk 10:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Mardin
Even though I appreciate your enthusiasm in spreading knowledge about your culture, please understand that your rhetoric is aggressive. In an effort to protect the truth in history, I condemn claims of genocide ever happening in the lands of today's Turkey. Please revert back the changes I made, which you unjustly labeled as vandalism. Awaiting for a collaborative answer. --Yozer1 (talk) 20:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yozer1 (talk • contribs) 19:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I have opened a dispute with the Dispute_resolution_noticeboard. --Yozer1 (talk) 20:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yozer1 (talk • contribs) 20:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Iznik pottery or İznik pottery
I notice that you were involved in renaming İznik -> Iznik. I’m slowing working on İznik pottery – I still have a long way to go. Do you think the article should also be renamed? Aa77zz (talk) 12:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe so. A simple google search shows that Iznik is the most popular English spelling.--  R a f y  talk 20:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Mandaeans
Rafy, how are you doing? Long time since we did some stuff together, so if you have time to go back to Mandaeism (splitting Mandaeans), i would be glad - it is quiet dormant for many weeks, and i feel much is still missing to make the split, especially sourced info on Iraq.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there, I was too busy with real life the last days. I will add a couple of paragraphs tonight. Hopefully enough to justify a split.--  R a f y  talk 20:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I have finaly made some progress. A draft has been created at User:Rafy/Mandaeans. I will work on this for another week or so, feel free to join in.--  R a f y  talk 23:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks nice, can i edit this in your userspace?Greyshark09 (talk) 19:38, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, you may edit as you like. I've put some stuff I had offline in the article, but I don't think I will be able to work on the modern history section, the article should reach a decent size once this is completed. It also needs a section on diaspora since most Mandaeans live currently in western countries.--  R a f y  talk 23:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Still needs some work, but after adding some info earlier today, i think Mandaeans is ready to be created out of the template on your subpage.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:24, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I will add some paragraphs on modern era later on this week. I think it can be comfortably split afterwards.--  R a f y  talk 18:52, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The current draft is OK in my opinion. I thought since we are creating a new article why not nominate it for a WP:DYK entry. Do you have any suggestions?--  R a f y  talk 00:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah why not - can be a DYK, but i don't have any bright idea on this regard.Greyshark09 (talk) 05:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Good work.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Assyrian infobox
Hi Rafy! I saw that you did some edits to the Assyrian infobox, adding some new persons. I'm a little bit sceptical. Bukhtishu, are these ethinically Assyrians? Same thing with Simeon Stylites. Shlome! Shmayo (talk) 14:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I would also like to say that I think you were right here. It should be merged with Demographics of iraq. Shmayo (talk) 20:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Bakhtishu belongs to a the native Syriac speaking population that was deported by Shapur in the mid 3rd century to Ahvaz, All Arabic sources I came across call him Suryani. Simeon Stylites, is a native of Edessa that belonged to the pre-Chalcedonian Syriac tradition, this makes him Assyrian as well. I am in fact unsure of Hunayn bar Ishaq, he was a native speaker of Syriac but he is attributed to an Arab tribe. If you have a picture of another medieval figure feel free to replace him.--  R a f y  talk 22:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid this issue is too complicated as it may mean that you have to apply this to other country-based ethnicities as well.--  R a f y  talk 22:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer! Another thing I thought about was Hazael. He is here listed as Assyrian, and then when you read his article here on WP it says "...Hazael repelled two attacks by the Assyrians...". Therefore I don't think it's a good idea. I suggest that he is replaced. Essarhaddon maybe? Shmayo (talk) 16:46, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I intended to rewrite the whole history section to reflect my understanding of Assyrian identity. Ethnicity of the Assyrians is a rather complex issue and is shouldn't be viewed from a nationalist POV, i.e. that Assyrians are the pure and direct descendants of the inhabitants of Assyria since the Suryoyo/Suryaya identity that we possess these days is the product of the christianisation of the inhabitants of Mesopotamia and Syria with brought together a group of people together in the name of Christianity and Syriac culture. There is already a section of the continuity with the ancient Assyrians but there should also be emphasis on the Aramaeans who dominated that region in the early Christian centuries. As you have seen I was too busy with real life and I'm afraid my contribution to Wikipedia will be minimal from now on.--  R a f y  talk 14:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I did understand why you chose Hazael. But, as an Aramean king who actually fought the Assyrians, I don't think he fits there, especially when that is mentioned in his WP article. Therefore I thought Essarhaddon would be better. His mother was actually Aramean. Shmayo (talk) 12:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I simply looked for a prominant pre-Christian Aramaean. Don't forget that early Christian fathers had more affinities to Aramaeans than to Assyrians, probably due to biblical influence. Anyway feel free to replace it, I wouldn't really mind.--  R a f y  talk 17:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Kurdish Jews
Hi there! I saw you initiated a "requested move" discussion in the page Kurdish Jews a while ago. I find it really unfortunate that this move didn't take place. I don't know the rules in English Wikipedia (I mainly edit in Hebrew Wikipedia), but is there a time-period that should pass before a move is requested again? I saw some people in the discussion were really misinformed. Some claimed that Jews of the area spoke Kurdish, and Aramaic is only used as a liturgical language by them. This is just wrong. My grandparents came from that area and Aramaic is their NATIVE tongue, while Kurdish is just one of the languages they speak as a foreign language (like Arabic). Those users might got confused by the fact that Aramaic is used by ALL Jews as a liturgical language. But Jews of Kurdistan are the only ones (among Jews) who still maintain it as a native tongue. Ben Gershon - בן גרשון (Talk) 17:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey. I don't think there is such a guideline regarding rename requests at enwiki. However you could try to improve the article and get rid of any misconceptions out there. IMO the Jews in Kurdistan were simply "ethnically Jewish" and not "Kurdish" just as those in Baghdad were not "Arabs" and the current name fails to reflect this fact. While you are there could you take a look at the supposedly Aramaic endonym?
 * Unfortunately I'm becoming increasingly less enthusiastic about Wikipedia and my contributions will be fewer and more sporadic than before. You could approach User:Greyshark09 who has considerable contributions to the subject and present your concerns to him. p.s. I have left you a message at arcwiki --  R a f y  talk 01:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your reply! I changed the Hozaye Kurdinaye to be just Hozaye; I'll try editing the page and I hope not to enter into any argument with anybody, since there are so many misconceptions about it. :) In my opinion, there's a very close relation between the Jews and the Christians of the area, as both speak close dialects of Aramaic, while others in the area speak languages that are totally unrelated. Ben Gershon - בן גרשון (Talk) 02:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Ichthus: January 2012
 In this issue...

- Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia &bull; It is published by WikiProject Christianity For submissions contact the Newsroom &bull; To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
 * From the Editor
 * What are You doing For Lent?
 * Fun and Exciting Contest Launched
 * Spotlight on WikiProject Catholicism

Photo of Arshad al-Umari
Hi Rafy,

You uploaded a photo to the wiki commons of Arshad al-Umari that is actually of his brother Khairaldeen. I've contacted the person who originally posted the photo incorrectly at Aliraqi:

http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/showthread.php?p=147860329

and provided him with a correct photo. He has now replaced the photo posted there with the new one.

The photo is used in two English wikipedia entries and several non-English ones. Since I am completely new to working with wikipedia and you originally uploaded the photo, I'm asking for your help to replace the wrong photo in the wiki commons and to update the wiki entries with the correct one. I tried to do this myself but was stumped pretty quickly.

In addition to the aliraqi webpage, you can find low and high resolution jpg's of the correct photo in a folder named "Arshad al-Umari for wiki" at this (temporary) location:

https://public.me.com/numari1

Thanks for your help.

Numari

Numari (talk) 12:20, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the correction, I've uploaded a new image.--  R a f y  talk 14:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

NENA
Comment on Taivo's talk page. — kwami (talk) 04:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Quote reply
I think your right. Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Happy upcoming new year
We have the 1st of Nissan today (lunar calendar), so thought to wish you Kha b-Nisan Tuv!Greyshark09 (talk) 19:58, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I returned to deal with the Iraqi Shia revolts 1935-1936, where i have added your suggested source and several others. I invite you to help me on this article, based on the "The insurgent state: politics and communal disscent in Iraq - 1919-1936" article, and a book by Yitzhak Nakash - the best sources i found so far.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I will keep an eye on the article and the ref.--  R a f y  talk 00:31, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Finally, i found good refs for the Shia uprisings casualties - apparently hundreds of tribesmen died in the clashes & dozens executed, over 90 government troops were also killed. It was quiet a turbulent period in Iraq.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, see also the following articles i've recently edited and created: Put your attention to the major reconstruction of the mandatory articles, which have recently been heavily filled by WP:OR material.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Mandatory Mesopotamia
 * British Mandate for Mesopotamia (legal instrument)
 * Kingdom of Iraq
 * 1935 Yazidi revolt


 * Good work there. I will add them to my watch list and add more info where I can.--  R a f y  talk

Republic of Iraq regime articles
Hello Rafy, as I know that Iraq is your area of interest (and knowledge), would you mind reading the dialogue on my talk page regarding the post-1958 'regime' articles and give your opinion? Thank you. Adel (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Syria-related articles
I see that you have been trying to remove some of the more blatant propaganda. I'm a bit annoyed with myself that I have not been following these articles since their inception: there was probably an excellent example there showing how Wikipedia articles are developed for propaganda uses. If you are interested in trying to improve these articles I'd be willing to work with you. Although I don't think such attempts will be successful (my opinion of Wikipedia is that it has a malevolent influence on truth), it will be interesting to see how the propagandists respond to maintain their control of the articles. Meowy 02:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I was also concerned with the article. I know from my acquaintances in Syria that the struggle is shaping to be a sectarian conflict and has nothing to do with earlier peaceful protests demanding democracy. Minorities such as Shiites and Alawites are being targeted and killed on site at checkpoints, and Christians are seen as soft targets and are subject to kidnappings in regions controlled by the opposition.
 * There are many conflicting reports on what's going on in reality, Orthodox sources claim Christians where forced out from Homs by opposition fighters. The Jesuits deny this, but then an anecdote at their website mentions Christians who were "forced" out of their homes in Homs.
 * The main problem imo is that most news agencies are more concerned with the romantic idea of revolution and the atrocities committed by the authorities. The sins of the opposition are being pushed aside and marginalised when compared to those of the government - consciously or not - by most observers. One year ago I was very much in favour of the rebels in Libya, only now I see that they weren't much better that Gaddafi. Let's hope that Syria doesn't face a similar fate.
 * I plan to give more attention to articles connected to the uprising. Will be glad if you help out a bit as well.--  R a f y  talk 16:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * One significant thing about the majority of the most active editors who have been working on these articles is that they have no history of editing articles on Syria and have only edited articles connected to the uprising. Anyone with a depth of knowledge about Syria, or a genuine interest in the region, would have edited articles about other aspects of Syria. However, these editors seem to be mostly single-issue editors who have probably come whipped-up with indignation fueled by whatever biased news-channel they watch. And some editors are probably there for darker reasons - Wikipedia is important enough for those agitating for war and intervention to make sure Wikipedia articles do not contain awkward off-message truths. Meowy  01:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Welcome back!
I saw you were taking a wikibreak. You might not be completely done with it, but it seems you are back. Welcome! Jacob102699 (talk) 01:15, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks... I'm actually still busy with real life but I would edit every now and then.--  R a f y  talk 18:29, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Persian Church
I would like to bring this stub to you attention. I believe that it should be an obvious redirect to the Church of the East rather than a poorly written stub.--  R a f y  talk 15:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Rafi,


 * I would delete the stub entirely. It contains so many errors that I don't know where to start.  The Persian Church is simply a geographical name for the Church of the East.  I have used it in numerous occasions in my recent book The Martyred Church, simply for variety when I got fed up of calling it the Nestorian Church.  It is true that not all Persian Christians went along with the decisions of the synod of Babai, but we have very little idea of what happened to the dissidents.  Some of them may have rejoined the Church of the East later, others will have become Chalcedonians or Jacobites.  But there is no evidence that a distinct 'Persian Church' was formed in opposition to the Church of the East, at least no evidence that I am aware of.  Neither of the sources cited can be trusted on this kind of thing, I'm afraid.


 * Djwilms (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. I will redirect the page since consensus has been reached.--  R a f y  talk 11:41, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Assyrian independence article
I stumbled upon this article - Assyrian independence, which you have recently edited. I remember that a similar article named Assyrian struggle for independence exists (i edited it long ago). I think those should be merged.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like a fork to me. I don't think anyone would mind if you merge them and remove what is not referenced. Most Assyrian articles need rewriting anyway.--  R a f y  talk 22:25, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Assyrian Genocide Monument unveiled in Yerevan
Hi, Can you please add the information that a new Assyrian Genocide monument has been unveiled in Yerevan and another new one in South Australia very recently. Here are some links http://www.seyfocenter.com/index.php?sid=2&aID=423 http://www.seyfocenter.com/index.php?sid=2&aID=422 http://www.seyfocenter.com/index.php?sid=2&aID=432 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=assyrian+genocide+monument+yerevan 108.87.145.178 (talk) 23:33, 25 May 2012 (UTC) ܗܝܐ ܐܬܘܪ
 * Done.--  R a f y  talk 00:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Re: COE maps
Hello. Thanks for the good word:). The maps were based mostly on some old books on nestorianism and CoE I have found here and there. If you'd like I'd gladly create those maps with English/French/Spanish/Russian captions. cheerio Hoodinski (talk) 16:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There you go- File:Church of the East provinces 10 c.svg & File:Church of the East in the Middle Ages.svg. Hope that helps. cheerio;) Hoodinski (talk) 11:24, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Modern cats
Thanks This one is really tricky. For instance, Category:People from Baghdad is a subcat of Category:Iraqi people--does this mean the ethnic group the Iraqi people or just persons who were born or lived in the state of Iraq? Because plenty of Babylonian Jews don't fit either of those classifications but are still subcategorized that way... —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Definitely I think that the ethnicity and location categories should be completely different schemes and independent states should include categories about geographic regions. It's kind of a mess, honestly. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:23, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Iraqis - ethnicity or nationality?
Take a look at Iraqi people - looks a mess to me.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not an exception, all other peoples of Arab countries are equally messed up, (Syrian people, Egyprian people...). I will work on the Assyrian people article for the time being but I might go back and fix some of them later.--  R a f y  talk 15:00, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Assyrian Continuity

 * Hi Rafy,
 * I've only just seen your post on the talkpage of Assyrian continuity. I am sure you are right that the Christians of the Mosul region have always been aware that they were living in biblical Assyria (hence the Nestorian metropolitan province of Assyria and the diocese of Nineveh), but I don't think that awareness necessarily entails a claim to be descended from the Assyrians.  What I think is needed is a neutral, scholarly study of the use of terms such as 'Syrian' and 'Assyrian' during the past twenty centuries.  The name Assyria has meant different things at different times.
 * For example, I was struck recently by a reference in the Ecclesiastical History of Bar Hebraeus (ii. 354)to a twelfth-century Jacobite embassy from the Mosul region to the king of Iberia (Georgia). The envoys said they were from 'Assyria' (Athor).  Wow, I thought, evidence for Assyrian consciousness in the twelfth century!  But of course they said they were from Assyria because the Georgian king would know, from his familiarity with the Bible, where that was.  Mosul probably wouldn't have worked so well.
 * Here's the passage in question:
 * In those times King George of Iberia depopulated and devastated the realm of the Arabs with fierce violence, and a great number of Arabs were bound in chains in his presence. Then the vizier Jamal al-Din of Mosul, a just and very merciful man, who had built hospitals for the sick in many regions of Assyria and Persia, as far as India, and had abundantly stocked them with all they needed, decided to ransom the Arab captives from the hands of the Iberians, and because he knew that the maphrian was a very capable man in both word and deed, he chose him and sent him with several other Arabs he had selected, who went to George to plead their cause in the year 1472 [AD 1161].  When they had travelled into Iberia, the king was told that envoys had come from Assyria, including the archbishop of that region with two of his bishops, and several Arabs.  The king marvelled at this novelty, and went out in person to meet the maphrian and his companions, and brought them into his palace and treated them with honour.  He also gave them a number of houses and churches, so that they could celebrate their sacrifices and mark their festivals, as they arrived there shortly before the festival of Epiphany.  He granted the maphrian’s petition and set free most of the captives, and those that were left were ransomed for gold by the vizier’s envoys.  Then George sent them back, accompanied by his own envoys, who bore gifts for the governor of Mosul.  They returned with great joy to Mosul, and the envoys of the Iberians displayed their crosses on the heads of their lances; which was a comfort to all the Christians.


 * An interesting passage at first sight, but in fact it proves nothing except that Assyria (Athor) was used as the name of a geographical region at this period, which we knew already.
 * The Greeks, Turks and Iranians do indeed falsify their past, as you point out; so do the Armenians, the Americans, the British, the French, and so on. I wish they didn't, and I would be just as critical of Greek, Turkish and Iranian nationalist myths if that happened to be my area of expertise.  As it is, I don't think scholars should surrender their judgement in the face of deliberate attempts to falsify the past.


 * Djwilms (talk) 06:17, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Mandaeans
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 22 June 2012 (UTC)