User talk:Keahapana/Archive 1

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Hello Keahapana, welcome to Wikipedia!

I noticed nobody had said hi yet... Hi!

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If you have any questions, feel free to ask me on my talk page. Thanks and happy editing, --Alf melmac 10:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Erya
The editor concerned has been a problem since he arrived. I've raised the issue at WP:AN, and there were some suggestions about how to approach the matter. I'll see if I can get some action. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 20:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Xinhua zidian.jpg
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License tagging for Image:Erya-1996-07.jpg
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Added Chinese texts
Thank you, thank you, thank you for adding links to the Chinese texts of the Shiji, Hanshu and Hou Hanshu! What a wonderful bonus! You deserve highest praise indeed! John Hill 03:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Weilue
I was so inspired by your added links to the Chinese texts that I just wrote an article on the 3rd century Weilue. So far I have been unable to discover how to track down and link Chinese texts to the articles. i wonder, if you have the time, if you would do this for the entry on the Weilue? Also, can you give me any hints about it, please? John Hill 04:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The Chinese Wikipedia surprisingly doesn't have a 魏略 article. However, I added the Japanese link and corrected a couple of others, but I wasn't logged in. I also searched unsuccessfully for Weilue e-texts and will keep an eye out for it. I'm glad to help. (PS You might want to fix the broken link to your translation.) Keahapana 01:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

More on the Weilue
Hi again! Thanks for checking up on that for me, for putting in the Japanese link, etc., and also (especially) pointing out that the link to my translation was broken. I have discovered the Silk Road Seattle website changed all their links without informing me so I have had to go through all the articles I can remember putting them into and changing them all. A big job! By the way, if you want to leave me a message, just click on my name here and then click on my Discussion page and add a note Would love to hear what your interests are, etc. Cheers and thanks again. John Hill 23:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleting Wade-Giles
Look, take a look at the | Manual of Style for China Romanization and tones, I don't know why did you included all romanisations to the article with Wade-Giles, in any cases Wade-Giles are generally unnecessary, except in cases of famous ancient Chinese personalities or literature, and when pinyin is not available. You need to explain your point of adding those Wade-Giles. Eiorgiomugini 06:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm not being arbitrary, please do not come up with this incsluting. On Shiming you had explained Coblin originally wrote "not impossible that Liu Chen," which you quoted with Pinyin marked by brackets "not impossible that Liu [Zhen],". So I left the Wade-Giles for the article, as it was on a popular published sources. As for Yang Hsiung, well, I must said that I actually didn't noticed that. I had changed some articles without tone marks for consistency, since they were not originally marked with tone. Eiorgiomugini 00:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Deleting Wade-Giles (again)
=Deleting Wade-Giles (again)== RESTORED Hi! Sorry you seem to have gotten into this argument with Eiorgiomugini which you have asked me to comment on. Here are my thoughts about it (I too am really an amateur and have not checked everything against the Wikipedia conventions of style - so please feel free to criticise any of my suggestions). First, let me say that English does seem to be a second language for Eiorgiomugini who may tend to sound more abrupt (or even rude) than he or she intends to. It does not look to me like a personal attack is intended.

Secondly, I think you are quite right to use Wade-Giles (or whatever other type of romanisation was used by the author) - exactly how they used it - if you are quoting from them. It is possible to add Pinyin or accented words in square brackets if you wish (to indicate that it has been added to the quote), or you may wish to add a word or two in square brackets to help the quote make sense. Or, for example, you could indicate a spelling mistake by putting the word [sic] in square brackets - but otherwise, any quote should be an exact copy of the original text unless there is some good reason and then you must specifically indicate why.

Thirdly, although Pinyin is the style of romanisation of choice for the Wikipedia, Wade-Giles, as you know, has been very widely used for a long time, and many placenames, etc., are still commonly written in Wade-Giles (or other related systems, such as the French B.E.F.E-O). It is, of course, also still in use in Taiwan and by many scholars. So, it is frequently found in quotes and it is often of assistance to many readers. For this reason it is probably often preferable to use both systems for important words (like names of famous people, place names, etc.)

As to the use of accents to show the tones - my own guiding principle is to not bother using them when dealing with ancient texts - as we have little idea of how the tonal systems have changed through the ages. However, for modern things, and as a guide to the modern pronunciation of ancient names, and as an aid to finding the correct character in dictionaries, they are indeed very useful. In general, (although I rarely use them myself), I would think that they are best included - especially in a book such as the Wikipedia which people will be using for reference purposes.

These are just a few of the thoughts that occured to me in response to your enquiry. I have not had time to think them through carefully - and others may disagree with some of them - and that is fine. Most important, though, I think that in terms of this wonderful tool the Wikipedia, we should all try our very best to always be polite and be aware that some people may not be as experienced or may have other opinions which may be as valid as our own. I think one thing that really helps - especially if you are making a major edit - is to contact the person who has written something you want to change before you do it and discuss with them why you want to do it. Several times I have found this very helpful for myself.

We really are priviledged to be able to contribute to such a wonderful project as the Wikipedia and we are all very fortunate that so many people are willing to give so much time and thought and work for free to keep improving it. The fact that we sometimes disagree is actually a great strength of the Wikipedia - so long as we keep it all fair and open and with thought forconsideration of each other's position.

Good luck with it all - I do hope you two can resolve these problems without having to get others to mediate. Cheers and best wishes, John Hill 01:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC) RESTORED

Thanks very much for your quick and thoughtful response. I realize that some of the points in disagreement are arcane sinological details, but I fully agree with your ideas and suggestions. Perhaps I asked the wrong question. Could you advise me on how to better deal with the problems of antagonistic users?

First, I'm well aware of communicative troubles for non-native speakers and fairly sure this is a behavioral and not a linguistic problem. I should explain that I have a PhD in Asian languages and linguistics, am a retired TEFL professor, and currently work as a translator. Naturally, this doesn't make me correct (I make mistakes like everybody else), but it does make me sensitive to the difficulties of writing in a second language. From the samples I've seen, this writer has several "voices" ranging from full paragraphs crafted with near-native skills to almost beginner-level phrases rife with spelling and grammatical errors.

Let me give you a hypothetical Wikipedia situation and ask how you'd suggest handling it. Suppose, for example, User1 enters a Chinese name in Pinyin and W-G romanization. User2 deletes W-G as "unnecessary." User1 reverts and explains. User2 deletes again. User1 tries to reason, cites MoS, etc. User2 deletes again, etc. How does one find reasonable solutions without resorting to blocking, mediation, or arbitration?

After I started having problems with this user on the Erya, I noticed a history with several 3RR blocks and a meditation attempt. One was a pointless argument (3rd cent. BC/1st cent AD) with Mel Etitis over dating the Erya. When Eiorgiomugini started a similar argument (c. 200/180-200) with me over the date of the Shiming, I provided citations (even the same one that resolved the Erya dispute) and offered a compromise, but that didn't stop the reversions. In parallel to including Wade-Giles, when discussing "volumes" for traditional Chinese books it is conventional to include the Chinese term because of possible ambiguities. After Eiorgiomugini repeatedly deleted the relevant "chapter" term for the Shiming, I tried to explain the reasons for including it, but eventually gave up the time-wasting argument and moved on to working with some other Chinese dictionaries (where analogous problems occurred). Monitoring my continuous troubles with this user, I noticed that he/she had started exactly the same argument with Xihe about "volumes" in another text, so I posted a note on the discussion page. However, Eiorgiomugini deleted that so I reposted details on the user's page.

Now Eiorgiomugini had deleted my Qieyun talk page reply to him. Since all page edits are cached, it seems pointless (except in obvious cases of racial slurs, etc.) to delete or censor what others say. I haven't been contributing to Wikipedia long enough to know how frequently censorship or blocking occurs. Is once a week unusual?

I've already taken too much of your time with my rambling and will conclude. I could be wrong, but this pattern of arguing and refusing to compromise smacks of cyberbullying, something like the HTML equivalent of whoever shouts the loudest wins the argument. Does stubbornness determine the eventual content of Wikipedia articles? I'm enthusiastic about the potentials for Wikipedia and want to help, but I'm at a loss with how to deal effectively with harassment. I look forward to hearing your opinions. Thanks again and best wishes. --Keahapana 21:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Dispute
Hi, Keahapana!

Thanks for your thoughtful explanations of the difficulties you have been facing. I think you obviously do have a major problem with this person. It is not only frustrating to have people neeedlessly (or worse, wrongly) change what you have taken the troubel to write - but it is a great waste of time and makes one feel like not bothering to participate any further (which would be a great shame in your case). I don't feel like I can probably be of much more use here - although I am quite willing to write a letter to Eiorgiomugini to try to resolve it all before it goes any further, if you wish. Otherwise, I suggest you follow the steps in the Wikipedia article on "Resolving Disputes" (you have already done the first few), which can be accessed at, which looks to be pretty thorough.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further help.

Good luck with it all (and do please let me know if and how it is resolved).

With my very best wishes,

John Hill 04:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, John

Thanks for your considered opinions. Yes, I'd already researched "Resolving Disputes," which (3.2) is why I contacted you. I don't want to have to request mediation, but I'm not going to be bullied away from participating in Wikipedia. I'll follow up and let you know what happens.

Would you please write to this user? I don't know if he'll listen to reason, but it can't hurt to try. A newbie (even a recalcitrant one) may not understand the methods and conventions of Wikipedia, and deserves a chance to adapt.

Also, don't hesitate to contact me if I can ever provide an opinion to help you (or others) mediating disputes in fields like Chinese, Japanese, lexicography, or linguistics. Thanks again and best wishes. --Keahapana 19:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Redirecting
Please see this. That's the proper way to redirect, and anything else will not work. Happy editing. (|--  UlT i MuS  00:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. That's what I'm here for, and if you have any other issues, feel free to ask. (|--   UlT i MuS  01:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Shuowen contributions
Since you've frequently contributed to the Shuowen article, I wanted to let you know that I've roughly reorganized it into sections. Please take a look and edit whatever you think needs to be changed. Best wishes. Keahapana 00:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks good -- nice job! Dragonbones 06:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Tonal marks
hello, it's really a probelm that has baffled me for some time... I suppose tonal marks should only be used for pinyin, not for common nouns. For example, we write Tang Dynasty, not "Táng Dynasty", or am I mistaken? I'm a bit confused of the practice on Wikipedia...Cheers--K.C. Tang 01:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi K.C. Yes, I think you're right about common names like Tang, but some articles have tone marks for Táng Dynasty. The "6. Romanization and tones" section of the WP:MOS-ZH (that I sent you) gives the preferred conventions. In general, I use a Uniform zh- Template with Pinyin tones and W-G for the first occurrence, and just Pinyin afterwards. I'd suggest checking how the romanization is handled on some articles about Chinese topics. Best wishes. Keahapana 01:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * um...let's return to the "Shuowen" article as an example: there are several appearances of the name 許慎, some are written as "Xǔ Shèn", some "Xu Shen", so which one should one write?--K.C. Tang 13:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, "Xǔ Shèn" is technically correct (at least for the 1st occurrence), but "Xu Shen" is OK. Two advantages are quicker inputting for editors and better results for search engines (which don't always prune "ǔ" to "u", etc.). My guess is that Sinophone Wikipedians will eventually add in the missing pinyin tones. Best wishes. Keahapana 23:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Invitation
Hi Keahapana,

Here's an invitation to visit WikiProject Japan. There, you can meet other Wikipedians working on articles related to Japan. You'll find lists of new articles, projects, and resources such as


 * Japan-related topics notice board
 * Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)
 * Template:Newest Japan-related articles: I've listed some of your recent articles here to call the attention of the community to them.
 * Portal:Japan

Hope to see you there!

Best regards,

Fg2 03:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Fg2.
 * Thanks for the invitation. I'll check out Wikiproject Japan. Best wishes. Keahapana 02:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

DYK

 * そんなに珍しいことはおもしろいですね. どうもありがとう. LordAmeth 23:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

See also in Rime table
um... I tried to give context to the items to let the readers know what those items are about before they decide whether to see also them, I supposed that'd be better than just listing a bundle of items there and let the readers try their luck... but that may just be my idiosyncrasy, you can always change them back :) btw "See also" is really one of the most abused usuage in Wiki (I don't mean the one in the "rime table" article), ppl just tend to list everything they deem relevant there, without explaining why those things are relevant. My principle is: if the thing is really relevant, mention it in the main text explaining why it is relevant. Also, sometimes ppl try to list very general things in "See also", just take a look at Pleonasm. Too many "see also" are distratcing, at least for me. btw, would you have time to clean up the Old Chinese article? An expert like you is needed to do that. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 00:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll revert Rime table. Yes, you're right that some articles have slipshod "See also" sections. One easy way to fix them is to delete anything already linked in the article, like I just did for Pleonasm. I've also found that checking "What links here" sometimes reveals things worth adding into "See also". There might be advantages to "See also" from the perspective of Web usability and how users navigate web pages. I just googled "==see also==" in wikipedia.org and found 1,500,000 pages! That's amazing.


 * I'll see what I can do with Old Chinese later, but want to fix up Japanese dictionaries first. Best wishes. Keahapana 23:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * would you also fix Electronic dictionary when you've got time? I can't understand why that article is limited to Japanese electronic dictionaries (the Japanese invented that, I suppose?). Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * so your edits have been reverted? Indeed I tried to edit that before, but my edit was soon reverted (wry smiles). We have to compromise... but personally I'll continue my Quixotic effort. btw, I've revised and expanded rime dictionary and rime table, you can take a look when you've got time. Hope that I did not mess things up. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 02:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, my "See also" cleanup was quickly reverted. However, if you want to take another try at fixing those redundant links, here's a good argument. Your rime article contributions look good, thanks. Best wishes. Keahapana 23:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Xian (Daoist)
I've made some changes to your xian page. Read the talk page for more info on what I did and what I'm going to do in the near future. I just thought you might like to know. (Ghostexorcist 22:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

Dictionary
Thank you for suggesting those dictionaries. I’m not a linguist by any means. I’m an Asian studies/Cultural Anthropology double-major. I hope to get my doctorate in Chinese history at some point (many years from now). Do you teach at a university or do you perform pure research? As lame as it sounds, I think research would be the best route for me. I plan on translating several Chinese books in the future, so a bit of linguistic know-how wouldn’t hurt me a bit. (Ghostexorcist 17:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

Japanese dictionary removal
Hello Keahapana, I'm not sure quite how to go about this. Perhaps, I'm doing it in the wrong way. If so, please let me know. Several times I've added a link to www.englishjapaneseonlinedictionary.com. It's a free visual and online dictionary. Within a day or so, the link has been removed. This has happened several times. Can anyone tell me: 1. who is removing the link? 2. why they are removing the link? 3. Have I followed some improper procedure? If so, please enlighten me. The link mentioned above is to a non-commercial online dictionary. Why would it be removed? Geohara. [23 December 2006]

Jow Tong
Do you think you could look at my Jow Tong page and tell me if you see anything wrong in regards to the Chinese? Fell free to make any changes you see necessary. (Ghostexorcist 03:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC))


 * Yes, I'd be glad to check the Chinese, but I need to finish some other things before I can get to it. Did you receive my email sent through Ghostexorcist a few days ago? Merry Christmas Keahapana 23:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I haven't checked my email in a while, I'll give it a look. Merry Xmas to you too. (Ghostexorcist 23:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC))


 * I sent you a reply. (Ghostexorcist 01:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC))

Strange, I didn't receive it. Please resend to keahapana "at" gmail.com Thanks. Keahapana 19:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I just replied to the email you sent me. I didn't get any kind of a delivery failure notice. I'll send it again. Check you inbox within the next few minutes.(Ghostexorcist 22:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC))


 * Got it. The spam filter is acting up. I'll reply later. Keahapana 23:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at my article. Yes, there is far more fictional material available on Zhou Tong than there is historical. I note that in the article. The red links are not dead, it just means that no one has written an article for them yet. I just opened the links just in case someone does. Thanks for telling me a better name for Yue Fei's fictional biography.(Ghostexorcist 23:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC))