User talk:Keahapana/Archive 7

Your feedback is welcome
Hi Keahapana, Would you mind reviewing the recent changes to Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes, and perhaps weighing in on the corresponding talk page discussion? I would like to recuse myself for now, but I have provided a summary of the edits in question. Thanks. Homunculus (duihua) 17:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'll be glad to. Best wishes for the new year, Keahapana (talk) 00:41, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You too. If ever you come across a page that you think I may be able to help on, let me know .  Homunculus (duihua) 04:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have now proposed a merger of the 'concerns' article with its parent. -- Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 01:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There is a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Canvassing you may be interested in. Cheers, -- Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 02:56, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for notifying me. I'll reply on the Talk page. Cheers, Keahapana (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Keahapana, I just posed a question on the talk page for the concerns and controversies article. Seems that everyone is telling everyone else to discuss before reverting, yet there are three reverts and no discussion in more than a month. I am pretty confused, and would appreciate if you could head to the talk page to explain what the thought process was behind your changes (I hope other editors will do the same). I'll try to mediate if I can, but don't know how much more I can invest in parsing through all the diffs to understand what's going on. Thanks, Homunculus (duihua) 15:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your offer. Thank you. I was responding to the edits and deletions made in January, but waited until the merger discussion had ended. I'm sorry that my work was confusing and thought the edit summaries would be clear. I'll post a list of my 10 February edits and we can begin the discussion from that. Thanks again, Keahapana (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Rational Skepticism WikiProject member asking for look at Theosophy entry
Since you are an active participant in the Rational Skepticism WikiProject, would you mind looking over the Wikipedia entry on Theosophy to see if you find any concerns? Thanks much,Factseducado (talk) 14:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd be glad to take a closer look when I get time. I've watchlisted the page and will follow the NPOV squabbles. Keahapana (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * PS. I see you don't have a User page. Please see WP:USERPAGES. Keahapana (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for being willing to take a closer look when you have time.


 * I thought I had a user page but apparently didn't comprehend what one was. I am very new. Now I have a user page. I haven't put anything on it. I'm busy but I hope to put something on it someday.


 * Thanks a lot. Factseducado (talk) 03:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Reference info
Greetings, Keahapana, I was checking the references in the Ma Gu article, and I noticed that you not only started the article, and contributed to it over time (and may perhaps still be interested in it). I also know that you are generally knowledgeable, even erudite, in many areas of ancient Chinese culture and linguistics. Therefor, I was wondering if you would happen to know a better reference to the section Ma Gu, where it says:


 * Needham (1980:152) pointed out that Ma Gu was goddess of Shandong's sacred Mount Tai, where cannabis "was supposed to be gathered on the seventh day of the seventh month, a day of seance banquets in the Taoist communities."

Referring to Needham, Joseph. 1980. Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 5, Chemistry and Chemical Technology; Part 4, Spagyrical Discovery and Invention. Cambridge University Press.

However, page 152 in this text appears to involve a discussion of distillation of alcohol, rather than Chinese mythology or religion. Might you know whether this reference is incorrect (perhaps found elsewhere in one of Needham's works), or do you think that the statement in the article is just inaccurate (or, at least, not supported by this particular reference)? Dcattell (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry to bother you (if I did). I usually use my own library and not on line stuff, but I had the brilliant idea of doing an online Google search on the quote and found that it is from page 152 of Needham, Joseph. 1974. Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 5, Chemistry and Chemical Technology; Part 2, Spagyrical Discovery and Invention: Magisteries of Gold and Immortality. Cambridge University Press. I'll correct the ref. Dcattell (talk) 16:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Greetings, Dcattell. I've seen and appreciate your many WP contributions. No bother, since you answered your question before I could. Thanks for finding my mistaken year and volume of SCC. I started a Bigu (avoiding grains) article and am currently compiling quotes from (already too many) references. Would you please take a look? Any changes or corrections would be appreciated. Thanks, Keahapana (talk) 23:20, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm looking at references. Of course one difficulty with the Chinese Daoist terminology is that it can be hard to distinguish technical vocabulary from the ordinary meanings of the characters. Looking at the Bigu article I immediately thought of Boyi (伯夷), who with his brother and Shuqi (叔齊), starved to death avoiding the grain of the newly established Zhou dynasty, due to thinking it spiritually impure (rejecting the Zhou claims to have the mandate of Heaven together with the political sovereignty over all the lands and the grains which it produced). Original source Shiji. The brothers therefor abstained from eating the grain (辟穀) of Zhou (more lit.: submitting to their law of grains?) and went and lived on mugwort or some such on Shouyang Shan, until they were reminded that these plants too now belonged to Zhou, at which point they starved themselves to death. I'll try be of more help later. Dcattell (talk) 08:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Greetings, Keahapana: Regarding your references for bigu it seems that your main problem is that there are a lot of references because this is an important topic, but that they (without actually reading them all) would seem to treat the bigu topic tangentially, and thus not give a complete picture. I think that bigu has not received the academic attention which it deserves: it should provide fertile material for future PhD these, and more advanced research. I don't think there is much that I myself could do in the case of this article, because most of what I have found out would amount to original research (and which is why I am not putting this on the article talk page). In terms of pre-Han material it seems the most important resources regarding 辟穀 are the Shiji (世家, 留侯世家, 26 -- and there's no reason why this couldn't be used directly, since it is a research work and in no way a primary source) and the Lunheng (道虛, 26). The reference to the Shiji in Bigu (avoiding grains) (Despeux 2008:233) is incorrect and you probably want to change it: the "Li Shaojun" and Wudi incident is in Lunheng, not Shiji. What impresses me the most regarding bigu as a phenomenon is that it was addressed by top Tang poets: 2 by Wang Wei, 2 by Bai Juyi, Liu Zongyuan wrote one, and Zhang Ji from Jiangnan actually wrote 2 under the heading《贈辟谷者》. Of course using these would seem to involve original research, unless you have anything in your references about it. The content of the poems would seem to confirm your references, but also raise a few issues. For instance Bai Juyi's, Quantangshi 卷424_5, 夢仙 has a line (苟無金骨相，不列丹台名. 徒傳辟穀法，虛受燒丹經. ) which seems to consider consider bigu like the practice of taking harmful elixirs, with both as (at least sometimes during Tang) fraudulent medical practices, in the line of Neidan elixirs with toxic heavy metals, or that it kit was used for exploitation. Similarly, Wang Wei (who actually did starve himself into a skeletal state after the death of his mother) wrote in 卷126_89 《故太子太師徐公挽歌四首》: "留侯常辟穀，何苦不長生. " Maybe your references have some thing about the Marquis of Liu (留侯, Zhang Liang (Western Han)) mentioned in the poems, since Sima's reference to bigu in the Shiji is in the section on his biography? Anyway, thanks for doing the article, I personally find it quite interesting, although I doubt I have much to contribute directly; and, indeed, some aspects of the topic seem as if they will have to wait for future research. Dcattell (talk) 20:51, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Greetings, Dcattell and thanks for your erudite corrections and suggestions. Yes, I've already found a surplus of references, and probably the most specific academic study is Campany 2005 (which became Chapter 3 of his 2009 book). I'll correct my Shiji mistake about Li Shaojun and Wudi in the Lunheng, thanks again for mentioning it. This Shiji 乃學辟穀道引輕身 usage of bigu also mentions qingshen "lightening the body", which is another example of Daoist terminology with fascinatingly obscure semantics. Yes, bigu was understandably (with its rich denotations and connotations) a popular word among poets. I'll check for some well-referenced examples. I did see a note in Campany 2009 citing Mair's Mei Cherng's "Seven stimuli" and Wang Bor's "Pavilion of King Terng", which I haven't yet seen. You're right that bigu was frequently combined with neidan, and Campany says that many legendary xian used it in combination with other techniques, but none attained xian-hood exclusively through bigu. I didn't know that Wang Wei starved himself (, Famous people who starved themselves to death…that would be a good list), and will look into 留侯 too. I truly appreciate your interest and help. If I can ever help with your WP editing projects, please let me know. Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 22:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

3RR warning
I think you may be running out of "lives".#1#2#3 Such action is not a necessary prelude to discussion. -- Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 02:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Mizuchi
I addressed some of your points at Talk:Mizuchi. I conceded to using parenthesis citation on this, but I still needed to footnote stuff, and I also used internal linking from refernce to citation list, which I don't think most editors should have a problem with. --Kiyoweap (talk) 08:13, 2 June 2012 (UTC).

崑崙山
Hi, Keahapana, I started an article on Kunlun Mountain (mythology), which you may find of interest. I noticed that you had some etymological information on kunlun etymology, in the Hundun (which you helped to rescue from its state of primordial, nebulous chaos). I believe an equivalence with hundun? Also I find that 崑崙 seems also to have been used to describe an area and people from an area somewhere around the Indian Ocean (Kurung/Kunlun, per Edward H. Schafer). Any ideas either to me or added directly to article would be received with gratitude. Dcattell (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, and yes, I'd be glad to help. The article looks good, and I'll research possible lunlun-hundun connections. It should be interesting fun (like your "primordial, nebulous"). Keahapana (talk) 00:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution noticeboard
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes". Thank you. --PCPP (talk) 10:01, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Kunlun/Hundun
Thanks for the reference tip. I did manage to access JSTOR, and download the pdf of Schipper's "The Taoist Body," and started reading it. (That is, until my head started to spinning too much)! What is it? Kunlun Mountain = Laozi's mystical body's head = Hundun = primordial chaos, connecting Kunlun with primordial chaos! Well, as a reference to Kunlun and Hundun being cognate (p. 366), it seems like a good, straight-forward reference. The part about Kunlun being Laozi's head (p. 359) sounds kind of esoteric and hermitic, but makes a certain sense. Interesting.... Dcattell (talk) 20:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

(And looking at the huntun (wanton) connection, it appears that Kunlun Mountain, may in fact be just an enormous stuffed noodle!)


 * You're welcome. Yes, it's some heady (or yummy) stuff. You could use the Neijing Tu illustration. Ah, I just noticed that page is orphaned. I'll affiliate it soon. Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 03:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * As long as we're on this topic, what about kongdong (空洞)? Other than the "Hundun" article, there seems to be little information. "Grotto-heavens" seems generally related, but the whole idea of 洞 seems to lack coverage. I've been interested in this area, since 洞 are often mentioned in poetry, for example in Li Bo's works. (Also, in Journey to the West, almost every steep and rugged mountain seems to have its cave or hollows, inhabited by monsters.) Any thoughts/plans?


 * And, by the way, I did de-orphan Neijing Tu (I wanted to add a link to "Kunlun Mountain (mythology)" anyway (at least temporarily until better incorporated); and, "Neidan" seemed like it could use one.) I just added some See also links, so don't let me discourage you from doing a better job! Dcattell (talk) 06:09, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * PS: I forgot "Kongtong Mountains" which even gives the character variants 崆峒 (but not much more). Dcattell (talk) 06:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Kensho
Hi Keahapana. I saw your edits on Mu (negative); I really like them.

Could you give your opinion on my recent edits on Kensho? They have been removed three times without adequate explanation or discussion. See also the TP of Kensho. I've also asked User:SudoGhost for advice, User:Tengu800 for his opnion, and taken the issue also to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Friendly greetings, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Joshua. That article still needs work, and after I finish improving it, I'll read through the verbose Kenshō debate and see if I can help. Friendly greetings, Keahapana (talk) 21:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I've re-inserted the removed edits of myself and you. You've got the page on your watchlist? Thanks for staying so calm; I was really fucked up. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 03:07, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Nirvana
Hi Keapahana. Could you take a look at the etymology of Nirvana? See Talk:Nirvana. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 05:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Keahapana (talk) 02:16, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

On Sinosphere
I don't think that page has a lot of talk page watchers; it would probably be a good idea to bring the issue to WT:CHINA or something. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 04:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's an excellent idea. Click here. Keahapana (talk) 02:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Baka (fool) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Baka (fool) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Baka (fool) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.  AshLey  Msg 12:55, 23 November 2012 (UTC)