User talk:Keefer4/Archive 1

Nass River
Thanks for adding the photo. Nice to see that the photo request tags actually produce results. KenWalker | Talk 08:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Glad to help here, while I have some time.--Keefer4 11:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi re Nisga'a
Hi; I'm seeing your good work all over the northern indigenous pages; thought I'd ask you to deal with this, which is the presence of external links in the main body; they can all be moved to the External Links section, but I'm not even sure (I should have looked I guess) if there are Wiki articles for each of those; they need stubs at least but I haven't been making villages stubs, only band-government ones (NB there's a difference....). Seems you know your way around up there, so asking you to look into it; guess I should look at your Nass pic, too, as I did notice it had appeared (I was caught up in stuff elsewhere).Skookum1 18:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello, likewise I've come across a lot of your work in my wiki travels around the province. Quite the volumes. Good observation, the outside links on the Nisga'a have now been removed to their proper place below, and 'redlinking' of some villages occurred as a result, but I hope to soon take care of those with stubs.--Keefer4 19:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Your thoughts on something
Hi; please see Wars/conflicts without names on the List of conflicts in Canada talkpage.Skookum1 21:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't know enough about that specific topic to make a meaningful contribution, but if you can piece it together, it should make a welcome addition to the local history represented on here.--Keefer4 23:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * OK: as noted on my talkpage to themightyquill, it's not original research; it's just never been pulled into a single article before; now "all I have to do" is remember where I've seen all the bits and references about it and compile them into something....btw since you're obviously in-the-know about stuff on the North Coast, I just visited Metlakatla, British Columbia and there's nothing there about the Metlakatla Incident or Metlakatla Uprising, which are the two names I remember for the occasion; which caused a judicial inquiry etc. I was very surprised to see nothing on it on the Metlakatla page; as with many articles from the Tsmishian, Gitxsan and Nisga'a peoples, it was written by Bill Poser of the Yinka Dene Insitute; I don't know why he glossed over it/ignored it, but it's definitely a candidate for the List of conflicts in Canada page.  I've also been considering an article on the Chinlac massacre (or titled Chinlac, British Columbia, which I suspect you've heard of; and an expansion of whatever there is on Father Morice; not my area, but I'm aware of the whole shebang, if not in good detail; an article on Dimlahamid seems a propos, also, as well as Simon Gunanoot - who I've been meaning to get at least a short article/stub on, as with other notable native "renegades" and others farther south (Slumach, e.g.).Skookum1 01:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * All of those would be essential additions, in my opinion. But my knowledge of Chinlac is only 'rings a bell' probably from a Glavin column. Speaking of whom there is a slight blurb on Dimlahamid at Glavins article. Generally, they are well documented and known historical events. I'm surprised Gunanoot and our gold-boy Slumach aren't in here yet. Then, I've discovered in my brief time here that there are far fewer folks than I thought, who consistently dedicate some of their time to wiki'ing B.C. stuff. Understandable, but still...  I read half of Morice's History of Northern Interior of BC book a few years back, great, rivetting stuff.--Keefer4 03:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hunh? I didn't write the Metlakatla article, and don't write that much on the Gitksan, Nisga'a, and Tsimshian. There must be some confusion here.Bill 23:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, so I've heard...he's also written a history of the French in Western North America, which AFAIK hasn't been translated (I read French but have never had the time to sit down with it...); I came across bits in the book on Slumach I have, by Rick Antonson, that connects him to Chief Hunter Jack of the Lakes Lillooet (of D'Arcy and Shalalth, where I'm from); and was further surprised to find that "Volcanic" Brown apparently died in pursuit of the Lost Creek Mine; intending on writing the Slumach article soon, as well as Brown's (intending to write Volcanic City and a bunch of other ghost town articles, also; it's very daunting because they're so many, and some of the sources - mostly secondary, like Garnet Basque's and TW Paterson's books - are very detailed). The paucity of materials on early British Columbians, First Nations and otherwise, is rather shameful IMO, whether it's in university curriculum materials, mainstream histories and general public awareness; Gunanoot's story is one of the great stories on the continent; but we hear more about farmers and bankers from Eastern Canada than we do about anyone from the home turf; when BC is discussed/debated, it's near-invariably only on latter-day judgements, very ideologically-flavoured and often biased, which focus on the Exclusion Acts/Head Tax and the Japanese internment....as if nothing else happened here, and all white people were equally damnable, which is far from the truth.  This lack of materials on individuals and "characters" in BC's past, and the then-headline-grabbing stuff like Gunanoot's story, is part of the reason I wrote Chief Nicola and mean to do one on his father/grandfather/great-grandfather (all the same name...), and created the Hunter Jack one and certain others.  You might want to knock noggins with User:OldManRivers, by the way, and see the merge discussion at Talk:Kwakwaka'wakwSkookum1 03:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

mountain/place photos?
On a completely different line of thinking/input, I noticed your contributions to Alert Bay-related articles, and of course your Nass River picture....not sure where you are, exactly, although my impression is you're in the North Coast/Skeena somewhere. But if you're in Alert Bay, or know people in that region, there's some photo requests for various mountains and inlets in that area; Mount Silverthrone in particular. I'm not sure it's visible from Queen Charlotte Strait or the Island, but if it is, even a shot from the distance would work just fine; it's not the sort of place there are lots of close-ups extant of. I've seen it from the air, en route to Tokyo, but that was long ago and I wasn't in a picture-taking mode at the time. Any pictures from any region/place are welcome, but the Mt Silverthrone one just had its request placed the other day; if it's visible from offshore/the Island I'm wondering also if it has a native name, presumably in Kwak'wala (?), which would be good to add to its article....anyway, just an idle thought, like so many ;-) There was a Stephen Hume column on Gwayee, the Tsawataineuk village, yesterday, which I guess I'll add to the external links of their government page; separate village articles/stubs also needed all over the place.....Skookum1 03:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope to be living in that area at some point. In fact that's one of my primary goals... however right now I spend time between Surrey, Vancouver and Victoria. :( With some prudence and good fortune I may be travelling up there later in the year, and plan on taking many photos, though. Did live in Terrace at a time, and have a keen and constant interest in all aspects of the North Coast, and generally coastal communities, as you've observed. Mountain shots are also a hobby, being a 'bivouacker' (as you once were, apparently?).--Keefer4 05:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Golden Hinde and other images
I just spent an hour browsing your web site. You have several photos there that would find a happy home in some of the mountain articles in Vancouver Island Ranges if sometime you are so inclined. They are terrific, I enjoyed looking through them. KenWalker | Talk 06:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to browse the site, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I certainly have it in mind to include some of those pictures on here, although I haven't delved into the wiki bc mountain scene much yet. Some of those pics are already up at at bivouac.com. I'll check the ranges when I get a few minutes to get some idea where some of them should go. Cheers.--Keefer4 14:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I had a look at the articles that you have added photos to that you mentioned on my talk page. I think Wikipedia needs photos wherever possible.  It makes an article much more meaningful to have an image, as it has done with the ones you have added photos to.  One thing I notice is that the image sizes of those 3 are quite small. The still look good on wikipedia pages, but if you have higher resolution images, even 1 or 2 megs in size, wikimedia has room for and likes to have full resolution sizes.  I only say that in case you are compressing them to save space as they want full size if they can get it.  As to rating your own articles, I do it too.  If I thought an article might be contentious somehow and I had written most of it, I suppose I might ask someone to do it.  Anyway, the criteria are fairly broad and after all, if some else thinks it should be changed, they will and should go ahead and do it.  I would say when changing it, it is a good idea to add a note to the edit summary or the talk page explaining why.  Skookum1 does that and it helps  us develop a consistent approach.  Only my two cents worth, I don't really know whether others would feel the same.  I am looking forward to seeing your mountain images.  As you have several very good ones, you might want to set them up as a gallery on Golden Hinde (mountain) adding the one that gives the clearest profile of it to the info box.  If you need any help, just let me know.  Cheers. KenWalker | Talk 17:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Appreciate the tips. Those photos from up north were taken using ancient digital camera technology at about 0.2 megapixels 7 years ago, and actually are full sized. I've upgraded since and look forward to posting some of the larger ones (including Hinde, one of these days soon!) Later.--Keefer4 09:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

James McMillan (fur trader)
Wow. Great work! You skipped the stub phase, and went straight for the quality well-referenced article. - TheMightyQuill 06:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Once in a while you just gotta go for it :>).--Keefer4 07:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thought there should be something on him in that BC biographies thing by Kerr; but it has interesting omissions, including Arthur Bunster, Donald McLean and a few other notables who I would have expected; but I tried to look up James McMillan but found this guy instead, not sure he's interesting/notable enough to warrant an article/disambig, but he was the editor of a Victoria paper, if nothing else would be mentionable in any article on it (the Chronicle I think but I don't have the link open right now). The guy in the pages before him - like, ten pages - is a McMicking who didn't ring any bells but it seems a lengthy enough bio to warrant attention/article-rendering at some point, like a lot else in the Kerr book; speaking of which I've got to remember Francis Jones Barnard - I'm cribbing closely from Kerr, but not copying, so pls have a look at the wording there; though it's only about half-finished, and I'll be busy for the next couple of days in the real world.  McMillan looks great; you might want to search on http://www.fortlangley.ca as she covers all HBC employees and REs (she's a friend of mine...and a good resource for BC HBC stuff/people).  Gotta get up early; see ya later.Skookum1 07:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

pol party COI/AUTO warnings
Hi; see you've been working your way through various cats by alphabetical sequence; here's one for you which I didn't have a chance to finish, very mechanical; if you go to one of them that has it already, like Talk:British Columbia Liberal Party (think that's it, because it was in the B's could easily have been the BC Unity or Green Parties, too, where I'm pretty sure they're already there) - the WP:COI warning sentence that I put in those I meant to finish off the whole category (political parties in British Columbia or whatever it is); sometimes it's harder for the smaller parties to comply, but the problem has been the big parties vetting and "washing" their own pages and bios; I don't recall you were part of the Bornmann puppetshow fracas but it brought to my attention the degree to which political party papers are quite often POV, or not the whole truth anyway; the historical aspects of all the BC parties deserve a lot more writeup. But as I've been alluding to, I'm in the process of extricating myself from the sedentary life so am rationing my remaining Wiki time before I hit the road for adventure some time the next few months, which is the plan; that's why I'm passing on various incomplete projects/infrastructures as I have been doing on Article Requests and around the various talkpages; so likewise here, just wondering - if you felt like it - if you could continue the placement of COI warnings; it's not a hard and fast rule like WP:AUTO but given the propagandistic nature of all political parties in BC it's a worthwhile caution; not the political spin doctors have any shame, but at least they can't claim they weren't told....Skookum1 07:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to add some of those. Like you, I am planning on ending my hibernation and subsequently scaling back contributions here over the spring/summer, but not for a few months, which gives me some time yet. --Keefer4 07:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

buildings
Hey Keefer, from your contributions and your blog, you seem like a fellow traveller who might be interested. I'm compiling a list of local building articles that I'd like to work on, sort of following from the Sinclair Centre and 'requested articles' comments. I'm thinking that there should be 2 or more general articles on Vancouver buildings, one as a daughter article expanding on the section in Vancouver, one for demolished buildings, and maybe other ones as needed. That way, buildings that are somehow significant but might have a hard time holding their own for notability can be included. What I've got so far are just ones I dumped from my head that I personally find interesting (mostly labour history-related, depression-era stuff.) If you want to stop by, make comments, add to the list, vandalize it, add potential sources, feel free. I'd like to be somewhat systematic and maybe work towards some standardization with pre-existing articles, and of course draw from the requested articles list (I think the Vogue was one of yours). I'm stretched pretty thin these days, here and in real life, and might pull out back from Wikipedia myself pretty soon, so I may not follow through. But thought I'd get something down for a jumping off point all the same. cheers, Bobanny 10:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Pano pic in Hastings-Sunrise
Nice pic. But it seems to be floating over the text a bit. Could you move or size it, or change the properties, so it doesn't interfere with the paragraph text? Thanks. Anchoress 15:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks I tweaked it a bit.--Keefer4 08:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Erg, uh...
Hi; been busy in meatspace (as oppose to cyberspace); but saw the Gitsxan Nation=>Gitxsan redirect; I'd skirted around that one as I'd tried to get user terry harris or user Billposer to help with the subtleties; and I have yet to work out the tribal councils and band councils up there, vs the continuity of the traditional forms, especially in all the Tsmishianic peoples; what I'm getting at is that, using the name convention I've been working around "Nation" is usually going to indicate a band or tribal council article; ideally First Nation would be the standard but many band councils use just "Nation", as well as "Indian Band" (all possible redirets should exist in any such case, btw, including variant spellings in so many cases...); but it has "flex" in meaning and is also used to refer to the true nation in each case, e.g. Lil'wat Nation refers to the traditional body of the Mt. Currie people, rather than to the tribal council or band, although the band government also uses Lil'wat Nation to refer to itself. I made the mistake of thinking there could be a standard, I guess; but in this case I'd backed away because I respected the perspetive of the persons who contributed to it re the micronation stuff; but given the expansiveness of explaining traditional governance in the Tsimshian and Nisga'a articles, I had to know more abou the band government and also hereditary chieftaincies before I could properly rewrite this page; if it turned out there was no tribal council using the name, the redirect could still go to where you've put it; but it had to be checked before I did it and, well, my plate's kind of full lately and I forgot about it and never tried to sort out all the Skeena-Babine-Stuart bands and reserves, nor the far north. The Chilcotin tribal council, or rather one of the two of them, uses the slightly handier Tsilhqot'in National Government; i.e. a term which takes it past the possible limitation to ethno-political contexts alone with "Nation" (a similar problem with Quebec, in terms of what it means in French, and even the variable meanings it can easily have in English...). Whatever; just an advisory about whether or not this might have to be a band/tribal council article if the name format applied elsewhere is followed. There's knots in the theory herd and there - Shuswap Nation probably redirects to Secwepemc, where you'll find Shuswap Nation Tribal Council, which is only part of the Shuswap Nation. etc. In their own languages it's not as vague; that's some of the discussion of the different forms of Skwxwumesh that OldManRivers and I trade notes on, i.e. with uxwuimix and -ullh, one meaning government/community, the other meaning "us" or "us folks" or something distinct; both have a context of "nation" or "people", but in English both those terms are vague, or nation is anyway even if people is less so....Skookum1 08:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Yes, I remembered this topic elsewhere, and thought of that designation thing while making the change. I figured since there was no content on Gitksan government so far, that it would a worthwhile shift, without too much penalty vis-a-vis existing links etc. Basically I just had to start flushing Gitxsan out a bit more, in hopes that the others you mentioned would continue the job with their expertise. One (or both) of us could begin the stub at the 'Gitxsan Nation' re: the government side of things. In fact I could begin that now.. and then subsequently change a bunch of 'what links here's' to the appropriate place. Oh and re the micronation stuff, it seemed that some 'language guy' from somewhere added that at an earlier time, not the Gitksan gent who commented on the Gitxsan Nation talkpage. I figured it could be omitted without too much of a ruckus. And possibly re-inserted into the Gitxsan Nation (or First Nation) page when/if it has the necessary info to proceed.--Keefer4 08:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * More-- I think 'Gitxsan Chiefs Office' dim lipgyathl huwilphl Gitxsan is the current name of the government/admin side of things, based on this, and the fact that I see them noted at the Treaty Commission site. I'll have to ask a few oy Gitxsan buddies too...--Keefer4 09:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've re-created the Gitxsan Nation page as a distinct entity. Not sure how I should phrase it on there to convey the idea that it is less to do with people and more with government...hmm--Keefer4 09:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Nation-as-govt vs nation-as-ethnicity articles
Please see User talk:Themightyquill and also my talkpage. Thx.Skookum1 21:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Buildings
Hey Keefer, the messy buildings page is at User:Bobanny/historical buildings. Bobanny 15:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Passive-aggressive propagandist issue
Hi; just wondering, given your press background and probable exposure to the etymological controversy, if it wouldn't nauseate you too much to look at Talk:Chinaman; I decided to overturn one of Hong Qi Gong's censorship edits because it was so baldly aggressive; passive-aggressive, as always with him and with the whole "waah, we were victimized" mentality which underlies his worldview. He's the one reason I haven't tried to add to certain Canadian history pages, as he "polices" articles relating to Canadian-Chinese history from Hong Kong; and his childish attacks on me during the various stages of the Erik Bornmann fiasco proved to me what a sophomoric twit I'd already figured him out to be. So it's been a while since I bothered sparring with him; I guess because this is my last hurrah around Wikipedia; now it's gotten down to a procedural/citation war; I'm pondering an RFM or RFA because I know he's an experienced provoker and will start making character-assassination comments any moment now....why should I have to look for cites for something that's obvious, but he doesn 't have to provide cites for what is an abolustist generalization (and actually the cites in place don't even back him up, though he pretends they do...).Skookum1 18:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for at least stopping by; I realize we're likely to have quite differing views on this, although your points hit home with me as noted; I went and looked at the cited dictionary defintion and, yup, sure as before (months ago) they don't support HQG's hard-line position, even though he's pretending them to (as he did months ago as well). What's curious here is that he hasn't removed the "type of spectacles with short and slanted rims, made in the UK and marketed in Asia", which sounds all too much like a Prince Phillip joke, but apparently not noticed by HQG as meant to be a clearly offensive joke-entry (and no, I didn't put it there, but I have a wry grin whenever I see it given the moral posturing elsewhere on this and related pages, e.g. Talk:The Orient. I have a particularly long tooth about this because I remember Victor Yukmun Wong or Jenny Kwan raging on (in print) about how "this word was invented by white people to degrade Chinese people with" and other absurdities, and the firestorm in the local media which led to the renaming of Chinaman's Peak and other similar placename (now Ha Ling Peak, but apparently Ha Ling himself is the guy who named it Chinaman's Peak, because he was naming it for "all Chinamen", not just himself...funny how that's conveniently absent from the official history, huh?). I'll pull out some usages from old quotes in Morley and Edwards and Akrigg and whatever else I have around here showing neutral, even positive usages (that would include Mark Twain's glowing recommendation), but it gets as basic as:
 * "down by the creek there were three Chinamen panning for gold"
 * A phrase which would obviously condemned as racist and bigoted by the sophomores-with-degrees who populated the language police in this country, but note the comparisons to:

So, obviously those usages aren't disciminatory, but the first one is? Esp. when you consider that each of the latter three words can be used, and often is, with a derisive tone?
 * "down by the creek there were three Frenchmen panning for gold"
 * "down by the creek there were three Dutchmen [Germans] panning for gold"
 * "down by the creek there were three Englishmen panning for gold"
 * "I couldn't live without my Chinaman. Dearie, you must simply get one as soon as possible." - in the context of houseboy/cook/gardener, when they were more highly prized as employees and considered more reliable than, say, an Irish girl.  The above phrase is complimentary; latter-day historians will paint it as "racist".Skookum1 18:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And as an aside, there's an archaic usage in BC that you may have heard me bring up before; it's in Morley as well as in Matthews, where it's explained in detail - "North American Chinaman" - meant a Central Canadian, usually an Ontarian, who had arrived in Gastown and was availing himself of the advantages of the local etiquette without kicking back in (this had to do mostly with bar manners); the sense of "chinaman" in the phrase is someone who breaks the rules, has no etiquette, takes advantage. Yes, it's a discriminatory context, and in the sense of application to Ontarians even more derisive/patronizing as being "white people who should know better".  The bar etiquette in question was the then-custom of one guy buying the rounds each day, then someone else from the same group the next, and so on; the Ontarians would always disappear before it was their turn...Skookum1 18:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

fun with citations
Never mess with a sasquatch. Especially not an intensely OCD one ;-). Later.Skookum1 10:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Keefer4, thank you for bringing a breath of fresh air into the discussion. Xiner (talk, email) 15:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Chinook (wind/weather)
Please see this. Figured you might have your style guide, or know of a source/confirmation for this. Either that or I could write Mark Madryga....Skookum1 18:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Email
Hi; was just gonna drop out an out-of-the-loop comment but your Wiki email's not set up. Did you ever email me directly? Not sure what to search/look under in my webmail, if you did.Skookum1 20:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Hooray
Oh please. =P Xiner (talk, email) 02:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * When you're an admin, yes. Hint: don't advertise it in an IRC channel afterwards. Xiner (talk, email) 02:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

History of BC page
Just saw your edit on History of British Columbia. I guess consistency if all are language links is a good thing, but the syntax of the sentence overall doesn't seem to clarify if this is a listing of nation/people-articles or language articles; there's some debate, too, of course, as to which is the more legitimate parameter; we've classified them by language, often enough; but the Carrier-Chilcotin group and the Nicola and certain others aren't so restrictive, not Ktunaxa and Okanagan/Syilx for that matter. Anyway, just to make it one way or the other; I can't straihten out the syntax maybe without a whole bunch of coffee (I've been cleaning house) but it reads vaguely; are we naming the peoples, or the languages? And if we're naming the languages, to we use the English and/or linked names as per usual dab practice or do the "correct" thing and, in the case of Shuswap language, make it Secwepemctsin (which is already a redirect but there I made it a "masked link" so it goes to the correct article and won't get undabbed, at least not on the link end)?Skookum1 01:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * But in the context of languages listed, some are very localized dialects e.g. Witsuwiten and Babine; easier to refer by people, maybe, and refer to mixed populations where applicable (Chilcotin/Cariboo and Chilcotin-Nechako/Babine, Nicolas, Comox/Ueclataws in Campbell River etc); if all Carrier languages are referred to as "one" (which they're not), but then that's like calling Gitxsan and Nisga'a Tsimshian (which they're not, although they are Tsimshianic). If it's languages, I'd make it "prominent" ones, if that can be defined; or at least populous ones like Halkomelem (thatspelling includes all three main sublanguages and all subdialects) and Kwak'wala (which currently goes to Kwakiutl language and as you'll note from OldManRivers that shouldn't be its name; especially since Kwak'wala is becoming fairly current in BC English, at least in the media.  Anyway, back to housecleaning....Skookum1 01:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * All I did was change the link, all of the wording existed beforehand. Your points make sense to me, and perhaps it should be clarified. I didn't even the read the sentence, actually, nor the article. Changed it because it linked to the Shuswap page disambig I created earlier, out of necessity re: the electoral district &etc. Think I'd need coffee to do syntax stuff, too ;) Later, enjoy the cleaning.--Keefer4 | Talk 01:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)