User talk:Kelvin Mason

Your submission at Articles for creation: sandbox (April 25)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by TheSandDoctor was:

The comment the reviewer left was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to User:Kelvin Mason/sandbox and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to User:Kelvin Mason/sandbox, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "db-self" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
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The SandDoctor Talk 19:52, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Street choir has been accepted
 Street choir, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article. You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer. Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! MatthewVanitas (talk) 02:43, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Street_choir help desk] .
 * If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Proposed deletion of List of UK street choirs
Hello, Kelvin Mason. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, List of UK street choirs, for deletion because I don't think it meets our criteria for inclusion. If you don't want the article deleted:


 * 1) [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&action=edit edit the page]
 * 2) remove the text that looks like this:
 * 3) save the page

Also, be sure to explain why you think the article should be kept in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you don't do so, it may be deleted later anyway.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions.

Dom from Paris (talk) 10:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi I saw that you sent me an email but I prefer to use talk pages unless the subject is personal or confidential. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:38, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, I think I've made the edits required but don't know how to remove the deletion request. Thanks Kelvin Mason (talk) 11:52, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The trouble with this list is that the main subject UK street choirs does not have its own page. This is what is know as WP:Listcruft and fails the WP:LISTN criteria. Wikipedia is not to be used as a directory for a particular subject. I am in the middle of working on the original article that you created Street choir because the term is mostly widely used to refer to choirs of homeless people and not protest choirs. I have checked out a number of the sources notably Playing for Change and Music and Social Movements and Common Women, Uncommon Practices. and not a single one mention the term Street choir. Your use of these sources and the inclusion of the information drawn from them may well be considered as original research Also from what I can gather when I google your user name you seem have a conflict of interest notably with the use of the source Singing for our lives. I will remove the WP:PROD for you but i will have to replace it with a deletion request. Dom from Paris (talk) 12:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah someone else has already done it first. Dom from Paris (talk) 12:42, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * 'street choir' is the term used by all the - up to 100 - street choirs who participate in an annual festival. Maybe the 'Street choir' page shoudl be called 'Street choirs (UK)'? Kelvin Mason (talk) 13:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Use of talk pages
Hi you may want to read this page as it will help you to use talk pages. Help:Talk_pages. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I've made the edits and deleted the deletion proposal. I hope it's all okay now? Thanks again Kelvin Mason (talk) 12:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The term 'street choir' is used by all the - more than 100 street choirs - who (not all of them every year) participate in an annual street choirs festival. The page 'Street Choirs' might best be re-named ''UK Street Choirs' or - better - 'Street Choirs (UK)' Kelvin Mason (talk) 13:39, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * If you wish to create the page UK street choirs as you possibly have a conflict of interest you should go through draft submission. The sourcing has to be more thorough that the original article that I am cleaning up at the moment. Most of the sources were not good references for the article. No matter how much you know about a subject what you write has to be verifiable. Please read WP:OR to understand why I have removed quite a bit of the information that you added. You seem to have drawn conclusions and made a WP:SYNTHESIS of sources that do not mention as such Street choirs. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:06, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of List of UK street choirs for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of UK street choirs is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/List of UK street choirs until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. CHRISSY MAD ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  12:22, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


 * This is a bit strange. I couldn't make a page entry for something that I did not know about, could I? There are perhaps more than 100 choirs in Britain who consider themselves to be 'street choirs'. More than 50 participate in an annual street choirs festival. Most street choirs have upwards of 30 members. This is a big topic not to be covered in Wikipedia! Kelvin Mason (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi it's not the size of the membership but its notabilty that means that it merits its place in an encyclopedia. You also may have an undeclared conflict of interest if I understand rightly. You may want to read WP:COI to understand why this may pose a problem. Dom from Paris (talk) 14:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * So, hundreds of people singing in street choirs across the UK isn't notable? The conflict of interest argument makes no sense: my interest is in getting a phenomenon that isn't in the public domain via wikipedia onto wikipedia. Without such interests, wikipedia is likely to collapse under its own bureaucracy. Transparency is, in my view the principle to employ here, not some unobtainable and so non-sensical objectivity Kelvin Mason (talk) 16:02, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Conflict of interest is a subtle notion here on wikipedia, if you sing in a choir and you add information about choirs in general using reliable sources then this does not pose a problem. If you sing in a choir and you add information that promotes the choir in which you sing even with reliable sources that can be a problem because it is very unlikely that someone who sings in a choir will add negative information about that choir or will be tempted to rewrite negative information to lessen it. We should not be creating articles that only promote a subject in which we are closely involved as per WP:NOTPROMOTION. If we are involved in a subject or an organisation we must decalre this conflict of interest. As you have been insinuating that this is a subject in which you are involed in I am going to ask you clearly do you have a connection with Campaign Choirs Network? If the answer is yes you must declare it as per WP:DISCLOSE. if you have a paid role in this organisation then you need to read Terms of use/FAQ on paid contributions without disclosure for more information. Dom from Paris (talk) 09:03, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am a member of the Campaign Choirs Network - as are members of many UK street choirs. It's a wholly voluntary network with no money involved. I'll check WP:Disclose later — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelvin Mason (talk • contribs) 09:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Also you should be very careful when citing a work that you have authored or co-authored as this may be construed as being original research if the source does not meet reliable sources criteria. You might want to read WP:SELFCITE and also WP:SELFPUB. The publishing house Hammer On describes itself here as also funding "marginalised, risky or politically engaged research projects" which means that it may be considered as a questionable source. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the advice, but I honestly don't think I have the energy to battle through all these protocols. I thought that the number of street choirs in the UK and their history made them notable, end of story. Delete the articles if you see fit
 * It's a very time-consuming and sometimes frustrating thing to edit Wkipedia but globally very enriching. I hope you decide to stay though. Cheers Dom from Paris (talk) 11:22, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest
Hello, Kelvin Mason. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about in the page List of UK street choirs, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a COI may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:


 * avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, company, organization or competitors;
 * propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (see the request edit template);
 * disclose your COI when discussing affected articles (see WP:DISCLOSE);
 * avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see WP:SPAM);
 * do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation (see WP:PAID).

Also please note that editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. Dom from Paris (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)