User talk:Kensplanet/Archive4

Can you please further explain
your position at Talk:November 2008 Mumbai attacks. Another editor and I are equally perplexed by your stance. Btw, the article will still be considered your creation even after a page move. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 07:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, don't worry, if the article name changes, you will still get the credit as the article creation. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 03:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

jest in talk
Dude, wanted to drop a line to let you know I have nothing against you, but I do think you expressed some rather funny prose over at November 2008 Mumbai attacks. We don't have to be serious, even when talking seriously, its all in jest. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 03:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Reliabilty
Hi, Ken I just wanted to known whether Goanet, Goa.com, Goa World .com and Mangalorean.com are relaible sources as per Wikipedia's policies. Regards. Sanfy talk

WikiProject Films November 2008 Newsletter
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Sadanand Date

 * I've started a stub on one of the victims at Mumbai.
 * (PS I hope my comments regarding reliability of sources were not unhelpful.)
 * Alastair Haines (talk) 12:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No worries. At your service. Glad you had time away from Wiki. Best always. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ken, I support you 110% on the reliability of the sources you have cited for the purposes you cite them.
 * Although my words may sound negative about the CBCI PR Office, I agree totally that they are absolutely reliable per Wiki RS source standards. All I actually say that is negative is that they cannot be cited about how good they think they themselves are. No source is ever reliable on that. I only wrote in a negative way so that people can see that I was being carefully critical. What matters is that I researched closely for all the relevant material and judged that the source is reliable for the purposes it is used in your article.
 * I am certain that the sources cited at Catholic Heirarchy.org are reliable (the books certainly, the web-sites almost certainly). In fact, I also think the electronic method by which the site is automatically updated sounds reasonable, and is only weak in respect of up-to-date, recent changes not being included for one reason or another. The point is, though, the site is just a "half-way-house" between reliable sources and a Wiki reader. We can't cite the source (we cite its sources), but we can show the source, though showing the sources behind the site would be even better.
 * I hope I'm not making things more confusing, but I support you absolutely that Wiki should accept the specific information in your article that is supported by the references I checked. As support for the information in the article, they are indeed valid and reliable sources.
 * That is my opinion, I've given my reasons, it is now up to others to decide.
 * Whatever they decide, Ken, keep going! You are more perfect than the processes here, especially in your good natured way of living with them. All the very best to you. Shabash and danyavat! Alastair Haines (talk) 07:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Now you are talking. Here is what you want. Primary source backing.

If people are nervous about primary sources, it must be remembered that Wellington's own notes are the primary source, transcriptions of them are edited by professionals and are something of a secondary source also. The whole primary, secondary thing needs some common sense. There's a reason for Wiki guidelines, the reason is the actual guide, not the approximation of what articles may contain. I'll keep working. Alastair Haines (talk) 08:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC) The Governor General's letters to Tippoo Sultaun have been inserted, as the best authority of the events which led to the campaigns of 1799, in Mysore ; to the command of which country Colonel Wellesley was appointed, on the fall of Seringapatam. They had very long titles in those days. :(
 * The dispatches of Field Marshall the Duke of Wellington, during his various campaigns in India, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, the Low Countries, and France, from 1799 to 1818. Compiled from official and authentic documents by Lieutenant Colonel Gurwood. Volume 1. A new edition. London: John Murray, 1837.

MUKA

 * MUKA press release sounds good for reliability. But who are MUKA (Mangalore United Konkani Association)?
 * They are recognised by UK Konkans alongside other Konkani groups here.
 * They are recognised by KonkaniFriends.com here.
 * What Wikipedia needs to know is that MUKA is a registered group somewhere, so that a "press release" means something.
 * Ken's family could have an engagement party and issue a press release on behalf of "Ken's Planet Inc." to announce it.
 * But the question is, would "Ken's Planet Inc." have any legal responsibility for press releases it issued?
 * If there is no head-office and no editor in chief (or CEO), they could not be held responsible, Wiki could not use the release.
 * So, what we need is information regarding MUKA, where is it registered? Who is responsible. This does not have to be online info.
 * With a normal book it is just the same. Publishers have offices and editors to be accountable for what is printed. Many readers count reliability by an author's name, but actually, the publisher is very much part of the reliability. (Certainly when authors are not well known.)
 * Web-site photos are always copyright unless otherwise specified. MUKA may give you permission to use photos at Wiki. But it is not a breach of copyright to link to their site. It is also nice to do that for them. They want people to see their photos, but they might prefer to encourage people to see them at their own site, rather than at "mirror" sites (like Wiki if they gave permission).
 * I hope what I'm saying is helpful. There's reasons for the rules. They are common sense if you think about them. :) Alastair Haines (talk) 08:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * PS you could telephone MUKA to get information about them. You could email them to confirm head office address, name of CEO, registration as public company or non profit organisation, and to find out who authorises press releases on behalf of whom. For Wiki, you would need to get documentation of this kind of information, ideally in an email, though your own sighting of hard copy documents (like local telephone directories etc.) is perfectly reasonable. Wiki has lots of quotes from books where the editor is being trusted to copy these accurately. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Image use
You need to be very strict about image use. The key things here are: What is most key is fair use according to Wiki: "to illustrate an article discussing the book in question."
 * what is fair use according to law,
 * what is fair use according to Wiki, and
 * what is fair use according to Ken.
 * I'm sure you wouldn't push the Ken view of fair use. But, although it is frustrating, it is sensible and true that Wiki definition of fair use is much stricter than the law. The main reasons Wiki strictness is good include the following. Wiki cannot allow editors to make up their own minds, because they'll make mistakes for which Wiki will be accountable. It's not fair to artists or to Wiki donors. The law is different in different countries, the strictest rules must be followed in many cases. Editors need simple criteria. Finally, Wiki philosophy is really about free, user created content, not about fair use. The compromise is to allow fair use, but only very fair use, and to encourage generation of free content.
 * I don't aim for GA or FA, so it doesn't worry me much, but the situation is indeed really tough for people who aim for these excellent standards. There is nothing to stop you taking photographs of important Konkani icons and uploading them, in fact that's the perfect solution. It's the opposite of OR when it comes to article images! :) Alastair Haines (talk) 10:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

More sources

 * Regarding Christians in 4th Mysore war, 1799.
 * Stephen Neill, A History of Christianity in India: 1707–1858, (Cambridge University Press, 2002), p. 138.
 * "On the 4th of April the army arrived in effective condition before the ramparts of Seringapatam, which was stormed on the 3d of May. Colonel Wellesley was now appointed Commandant of the city". — "Obituary: The Duke of Wellington, K.G.", The Gentleman's Magazine October, 1852.
 * "Among the territories ceded by the partition treaty after the fall of Seringapatam was the District of Kánara, which stretches along the west coast, north of Malabar and west of Mysore. To the charge of this District Munro was appointed by the Governor-General, and here he remained from July, 1799 till October, 1800." — John Bradshaw, Rulers of India, (New Delhi: Asian Education Services, 2004), p. 87. [First published Oxford University Press, 1893.]


 * Wellington (Arthur Wellesley) delegated by his brother, the Governor General of India, to some civilian administration after the war, further delegated Munro to resettle the Konkani Christians in "Kanara" an appointment ratified by his brother as an ongoing responsibility for civilian administration. Munro, we learn from his diary, did not enjoy the appointment much, the government, however, were very pleased with his work. Munro is the most authoritative source we could have regarding the resettlement of the Konkani. He was both an eyewitness, and the senior government representative for the resettlement. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * PS another general comment. These events are widely documented, thanks to the great prominence of Wellington, and there do not appear to be any disputations regarding matters of fact. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * More circumstantial material. The Wellesleys were originally from Ireland, and are famous for supporting independence for Irish Catholics. The actions of the two brothers in looking after Catholic Christians captured by their enemy Tipu is amazingly in keeping with so much else that is known of them. Thank you for asking me to get involved, I'm learning all sorts of interesting things. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

A Sydney connection — Lachlan Macquarie!

 * Here is an amazing primary source, the original kept here in Sydney. It is about the war in general, no help to the article. But Governor Macquarie, as a younger man was at the famous battle! :) Alastair Haines (talk) 06:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And here is a wonderful bibliography of reliable sources related to Seringapatam (produced by an Australian). :) Alastair Haines (talk) 06:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I should add this for completeness.
 * There is an Australian "island" named after the battle: Scott and Seringapatam Reefs.
 * And just for fun.
 * Did you know ...
 * that Australia extends west of Mumbai? (72°49′E﻿ = 72.82°)
 * Heard Island and McDonald Islands (73°31′E﻿ = 73.51°)
 * but the Australian Antarctic Territory extends from 44°38' E!
 * Alastair Haines (talk) 08:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * DYKs are for new articles and the DYKs above are not new, I only used the DYK format for fun, to share a fun idea that connects you and I in a funny sort of way.
 * Your list of governors is much more worthy of the main page, but I think that lists are not eligable for main page display.
 * Anyway, I'm pretty much on Wiki break for a month now, I look forward to catching up when I return in February.
 * Best regards to you John. :) Alastair Haines (talk) 02:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

November 2008 Mumbai attacks
Ok, but not revert what is already done? Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 07:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem, just trying to reach FA so it can go that way as soon as it eligible... Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 07:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Goan Catholics
Hi, Ken, which books may provide me the Statistics of Goan Catholics in India, for example their statictics in Chennai and other mega cities? Sanfy talk

I vandalized your page because I was frustated and had no help for the Goan Catholics page and at that time I was a new user. Just image a new user with no one to help him the page. I would be very happy if you would contribute to the artile. Regards. Sanfy talk

Done. I have changed the sentence. Regarding the stats, today only I have asked the Archdiocese priest and he himself stated that there are ~5 lakh Goan Catholics in Goa, I even asked him to put the stats on the net, but he refused to do so. Done. Removed sentence calming Original research.

Hi, Ken can you get me the image of the cover of the earliest Konkani-Portugese dictionary, please!!! . Regards. Sanfy talk

Hi, Ken, is this http://infochangeindia.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=5527 relaible to be used on wikipedia. Regards. Sanfy talk

Hi, Ken, can you please help by finding some reliable sources for Goan Catholics: Goan Catholics, Goan Catholics and Goan Catholics section. Your help would be appreciated. Sanfy talk

Award
Thanks for your guidance, as for our dear friend he did'nt even take the pain to reply me back.

Thanks
Thanks for the birthday wishes. Yes, the Babri Masjid was demolished, plus Ambedkar died on this day. Quite eventful, though not for the right reasons! =Nichalp  «Talk»=  15:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXIII (November 2008)
The November 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 16:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

General thoughts
Hi Ken, I'm using the Australian holiday period to make progress on my real life writing and research. I am a professional writer and part-time research student. I have to switch to writing for money for a little while. In the mean time, I think the best advice I can give you is quite simple.


 * Images: take your own photographs! Wiki wants people to do this. It is an easy and enjoyable way to contribute to articles.
 * Sources: go for books not websites. View sources as a long chain: A > B > C > D, where A is first and each modifies the next.

When you find a souce (let's say X), cut and paste its Bibliography somewhere (if it has one). Use names, titles of books and key words to plug into Google to find the sources your first source X was based on. Keep working until you have some primary sources for the subject you are working on. Then work from primary sources, using secondary sources to check your understanding of primary sources as you go.

I think the safest way to work is the way I describe here. I find it fun. The only secret is using bibliographies and key words to work backwards to find more sources. Exploring literature without going back to the earliest sources is like starting to watch a film that is almost finished. You might understand some of the ending, but you don't really know how it all happened. It's the same when we join a conversation that has been going on for a while without us.

However you are doing your research, you are doing brilliantly. It's a real joy to see what you've done with sourcing Mangalorean Catholics. Cheers, Alastair Haines (talk) 04:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:English-konkani Dictionary (2001).JPG)
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Danyavad brother! :D
Thank you so much for your kind barnstar. It is much more than I deserve for the little aid I've offered towards your outstanding work. I look forward to providing much more encouragement and support into the future. You are in my prayers, and God bless you too, my Mumbai brother! Alastair Haines (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Forts
Discussion is ongoing on the GA status of the forts. See my talk page. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  07:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Mangalore
come to talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.45.189 (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Request
Hi Kensplanet,

Let me first start by saying a big thanks for all the work you have done on the Mangalorean Catholcis article. I should be giving you a barnstar but I don't have the time to look out for one. Due to my commitments I will be taking some time off from Wikipedia. I request you to keep a close watch on the Konkani related pages:especially the Konkani language article as it may be the subject of vandalism from some musguided patriots as it has been in the past. --Deepak D'Souza 11:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

South Canara
Okay, so basically the problem is that the map at South Canara, when compared with the one at Dakshina Kannada gives you the impression that Udupi is in fact North Canara. Both intros need revision. In any case, I think the merger is still relatively valid given the dearth of data in the South Canara article, and the fact it remains the "original" form of Dakshina Kannada. Circeus (talk) 18:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Request
Kenneth, my friend, I know that the History section needs a built up, please try your best to elevate Goan Catholics to aleast a Good Article status as I am feeling very difficult to do so. Regards. Sanfy (talk)

Hi, Ken, sorry for taking your priecious time but what more can you expect from a 14 year old (I'm not joking). Mangalorean Catholics are lucky to have someone like you to do their page, but I wish you would elevate Goan Catholics to a GA. Regards.Sanfy (talk)

The organizations section looks empty, please help in finding some Goan Catholic organizations.Sanfy (talk)

I must say your very smart and this time you have bribed me. I have created the necessary pages.Sanfy (talk)

Re: Governors
=Nichalp  «Talk»=  15:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, a cite is not necessary for each entry. Create lead text in each section "..following list contains..." and cite the sentence with the text following. That should be enough.
 * I've ordered the book The Origins of Bombay through flipkart.com to read on the history of Bombay for verification of the history
 * Added pics of the attacks. I think you must have seen them.


 * Still some way to go. Model it on List of Governors of Tamil Nadu =Nichalp   «Talk»=  16:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Also just think how many "people stubs" we have on wikipedia. This is far too generalised. Try India-politician-stub or something far more specific. The Bald One      White cat 17:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I;ve proposed a new stub type at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2008/December. For now I'd use UK-politician-stub but I think we ought to create something for governors who worked almost entirely in British india. Please join in and offer your views at the stub sorting page. Cheers  The Bald One       White cat 17:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. One thing though. Remember to categorise the articles e.g Category:Governors of Bombay The Bald One       White cat 17:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

"List of Governors of Bombay" would come under both Wp:India and Wp:UK as well as biography. Oh it is if ar easieir if you add the category as you go along, shouldn't require any extra effort. The Bald One      White cat 17:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not all governors belong to WP:UK (Not post independence) ones at least. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Negative: Titles are inappropriate. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  07:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say 40%. Timelines, pictures needed. Extreme right column needs to be explained =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dont have anything specific at this time. Open a PR and I'll review in depth post Christmas. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to say great work on the list! I hope you get it up to featured if that's your goal. Regards, Craigy (talk) 07:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Maps
Kensplanet, I saw your message on Nichalp page, and took a look the the Governors article, which looks well on its way to FL. I think it is important to add some maps to the article (like the 1909 map) to illustrate that the though the article refers to "Bombay", the actual geographical entity that name referred to changed dramatically over the period of centuries. Here are some maps you may be interested in: These maps are PD and may have already been uploaded on wikipedia/commons (I haven't looked) I'll add more map if I find something of interest. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 08:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * British dominion in c. 1783, shows that they essentially had control over Bombay city.
 * India in 1804, again shows that the British had dominion over only Bombay city, but the surrounding "Native States" were in "subsidiary alliance with, or protected by Great Britain"
 * Bombay Presidency 1832 You can download the full (1536*1322) jpeg from the website; they claim to license it under CC-by-nc (i.e., non-commercial), but given that the atlas was published in 1844, I think it is simply PD (we can confirm this).
 * 1882 map showing perhaps the largest extent of Bombay, stretching from Sind to Goa. This may be very similar to the 1909 status.
 * I agree that the 1832 map should be PD despite that website's claim.
 * Here are some images of Bombay Governors that I found on/off wikipedia
 * Henry Bartle Frere: File:BartleFrere.jpg,
 * Sir James Fergusson, 6th Baronet: File:Sir_James_Fergusson.jpg,
 * Raja Maharaj Singh: (may or may not be free)
 * Of course, not all images I have linked in this and the previous post will fit on the page, but it is good to find all we can and then select the ones we want to include. For example, since Frere was the first Crown governor and Maharaj Singh the first Indian governor, their portraits will perhaps be preferable to others. Cheers and happy editing. Abecedare (talk) 07:56, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!
Hope you have a great and merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year! -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 20:25, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi John Kenny ;), Wish you and your family a Merry Christmas from my side too. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  20:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Searching? -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 21:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Merry Christmas to you too, John!
 * Incidentally, till I saw Nichalp's post above, I didn't know your real name and read your wikiname as "Ken's planet" = "Knowledge world" :) Abecedare (talk) 21:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry! As they say, on the internet ... :) Abecedare (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

May the joy and peace of Christmas be with you, all through the year.. Wishing u n yr family season of blessing from heaven above. Merry Christmas Kensplanet. Also please expand the GC organization section. Sanfy Talk

Merry Christmas
Wish you happy christmas --Suyog11:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Merry Christmas to you too Ken!
 * Thanks for the nice pics for the talk page. :) Alastair Haines (talk) 14:10, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ROFL ... banning you for Christmas spam! No way. There's no Scrooges at Wiki. :) Alastair Haines (talk) 14:27, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! Ken, that's outstanding work. It looks great. The graphics make it very easy to imagine time frames, the pictures really help imagine living in some of those times and there are lots of high quality references and internal links. Just superb! Best of all you've located some primary sources. That is pure class!!!
 * Did you do most of the work yourself, or was there a team? It's brilliant! :-) Alastair Haines (talk) 14:42, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Merry Christmas
 Hello Kensplanet! I just wanted to wish you and your family a merry Christmas! May this Christmas be full of great cheer and holiday spirit. Have a great day and a wonderful New Year, from  The Bald One       White cat 14:15, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

John Kenny :-), Wish you and your family a Merry Christmas from my side too. I just now read about you being noted in media. --GP Pande 14:33, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Merry Christmas -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

New articles
Ken, I have read the Mumbai to do notice and created Geology of Mumbai and Bombay Catholic Sabha. Please expand the articles. Thanks. Sanfy Talk

Check newly created article Gloria Church. An Anon user has tagged it for deletion. Please add reference to the article. Sanfy Talk

Greetings
Merry Christmas and best wishes for the coming new year!Dineshkannambadi (talk) 19:34, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Goan Catholics
Hi, Ken what about the GC article, please help with the article. Sanfy Talk

Thanks for your concerns. Can you expand the GC organization section, as I feeling it hard to find GC organnizations. Sanfy Talk

Hi, Ken what about the organization section? we'll need to put more organizations, for example organizations within the nation, the Anglosphere, etc. Can you find more organizations. Thanks. Sanfy Talk

Why did ya use rollback?
Why was this edit by me rollbacked and not undone. Rollback is used only for reverting vandalism. I wasn't vandalising. I just used WikEd to format citation templates (which didn't work too well!). Instead you should have used the undo function. Next time please use the rollback button with caution. Regards, -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 18:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Whoa! Never! Why WP:ANI? We all are buddies... N hey Best of Luck for the GA nom of History of Mumbai! Cheers! -- KnowledgeHegemony talk 09:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Request
Please can you take charge of the GC article and elevate it to FA level, please its a humble request. Please reply back. Waiting for a positive answer. Thanks.Sanfy (talk)

Oh, so found enough time to elevate MC to a GA status huh, what if you not of MCdesent but of GCdesent would'nt you elevate GC to a FA. Even I do'nt feel anything special in the MC article. Let me pass SSC, then I will make GC one of the best articles on English Wikipedia. If you know anyone willing to do the GC article please ask him/her to do so. Thanks.Sanfy (talk)

Request
Hello LessHeard vanU. Can you delete http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mangalore&diff=259327349&oldid=259181557 and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Crazysoul&diff=259347967&oldid=239830717 revisions permanently. It reveals my personal identity on Orkut? Please do not block the user. Thanks, Kensplanet TC 10:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Vithoba
Thanks for giving the good news first. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the DYK tip. I wrote to the user as well as DYK discussion. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)