User talk:Keresaspa/Archive 7

Belfast streets and places
I think Royal Avenue and Donegall Quay both merit articles of their own. Pound Loney could do with a section on the Falls Road article. Once I can read the entire Shankill Butchers book on Google Books, I'll do an article on the Chlorane Bar shooting. I was away from Wikipedia over the weekend as I was in hospital-went home yesterday.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing serious I hope. I haven't been on here much myself recently as I've been roped into a bunch of DIY stuff that is still ongoing, mores the pity. I did manage to give UDA South East Antrim Brigade and overhaul but that's been about it for me. Keresaspa (talk) 18:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Article looks good! I had my vericose veins removed. It wasn't serious but whilst the anesthetic was being applied, my heart slowed down and I could have died had they not moved quickly to revert it! I could feel my senses going, a really weird sensation. Oh, I see the leader of the PIRA unit that carried out the attack at Jonesborough has been named at Smithwick.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:25, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've a couple of relatives have had that done. Anesthetic is always a bit of a worry, glad you're OK though. Meanwhile Robin Jackson is back in the news over here! Apparently a Special Branch agent had a role in the Miami Showband killing. As shocks go that's up there with the day the pope admitted he was a Catholic. Keresaspa (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * God, Jacko's back with a vengeance-even his photo is published in one report. In the colour photo, he looks a lot like my ex-husband from Dublin. Same colouring, expression, etc. I love how everyone is feigning shock at the relevations, which omit to name him as the head buck cat of the ambush.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As revelations go it's massive really is it? If this was a movie you suspect he would be sitting in the audience whilst the announcements are made, smirking to himself. Assuming he isn't that is. Keresaspa (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually the HET report doesn't really get its feet wet. They have linked Jackson to the attack, and revealed that senior RUC officers were involved in collusion; however, these men are all conveniently dead. What it doesn't do and subsequently undermines their investigation by this failure, is confirm Jackson's principal role as head buck cat and the presence of the mysterious English-accented soldier. They clumsily attempted to imply that this soldier was James McDowell (who spoke with a Lurgan accent)!!!!! Additionally, the Englishman issued all his orders to McDowell (ostensibly the patrol leader that night), so they were clearly two different people.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * To be honest I seriously doubt the full extent of collusion will ever by revealed by any government inquiry, no matter how supposedly independent it is. Governments have far too much to lose by acknowledging things like this so the chances of the HET really incriminating them were always slim. Keresaspa (talk) 18:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The implications can have a domino effect. I wonder how/where Harry Breen fit into this? Most of the RUC head buck cats were wiped out in that 1994 Chinook crash. The names Drew and Murray have been coming up, but both officers are-you guessed it-DEAD.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * All very convenient isn't it? I'm sure plenty of living ones were involved but revealing them opens the possibility of them turning evidence on government ministers and the like so not a chance. Keresaspa (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it just me or do you happen to think all this Robin Jackson was an RUC agent stuff was delieberately released to coincide with the ongoing Smithwick Tribunal into the murders of Officers Breen and Buchanan? You will recall Breen worked for a while at Newry as well as in Complaints and Discipline. Hmm...the info about Jackson's claims that senior RUC officers tipped him off about his fingerprints was sent there but nothing was done about it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:18, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope, I had the exact same thoughts myself. If both lots do it simultaneously then it takes the bad look of them I suppose. And good point about RJ - Breen's plot thickens by the minute! Keresaspa (talk) 20:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Chlorane Bar
Oh, I've been meaning to ask you, would you happen to know where the Chlorane Bar stood in Gresham Street in central Belfast?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know where Gresham Street is if that's what you mean but where exactly on the street the bar was I haven't a clue. Full of porn shops now is Gresham Street! Keresaspa (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I was looking at old photos of Castle Place when Robbs was still standing. Back in 1986 I went inside when it was Poundsavers. I remember how beautiful those old buildings looked...now mostly gone.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 21:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Parts of it still have old facades on the other side of the street but that is Donegall Arcade now, a fairly pointless minitature shopping centre. Heck even it has been totally remodelled since it opened as it used to be a walk-through promenade type shopping centre but now about half of it has been given over to a discount clothes shop with all the small shops kicked out to make room. Much of Gresham Street is gone too now and there is a real clash of buildings as it has been in the process of being rebuilt for about forty years so there are old buildings besides 70s ones then 80s ones then vacant lots. Parts of the twon are a real mess to be honest because of that approach. Keresaspa (talk) 21:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I notice the beautiful Barclay's Bank edifice on Castle Place is thankfully still there.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 21:32, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just about hanging on. Everything around it has been knocked down but it has survived. For now anyway. Keresaspa (talk) 00:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I just cannot understand the mentality behind the wanton destruction of a city's architectural heritage; however, back in the 1970s, Dallas city planners had wanted to tear down the Texas School Book Depository (from whence Oswald allegedly shot Kennedy)! The whole area has since (and thankfully) been designated an historic district, this preserving all those lovely late-19th and early-20th century edifices in Dealey Plaza. The USA is notorious for demolition of old buildings. There is nothing left of old downtown Los Angeles. That proved a major problem when Clint Eastwood had to recreate Los Angeles of the 1920s for his film Changeling.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That probably explains it then as they're in thrall to everything American here. That and the shady links between the big building companies and the main political parties. I don't want to appear as a wanted conservatism for the sake of it as sometimes even I have to admit it is for the good. They're in the process of demolishing the Village right now which is in a way a shame but I have to admit that some of the houses there were unfixable and nobody in 2011 should have live without running water or reliable electricity (as was the case in some Village streets). For the people who live there new houses will be an improvement so good luck to them. It's not always the case either as I think the upper Shankill houses that they're looking to demolish are still good but in some case it is fair enough. But all the big fancy buildings in and around the city centre could easily be converted (as they did with Robinson & Cleaver or Anderson & McAuley) rather than just always reaching for the wrecking ball. Keresaspa (talk) 15:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The houses on Rowland Street and Britannic Street in Sandy Row should have been preserved as listed buildings. I agree though that nobody should have to live in a slum. The city centre buildings such as Grand Central Hotel and Robb's were in good condition. They could, as you say, have been converted instead of destroyed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:52, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * A few old houses from Sandy Row were, as far as I remember, rebuilt brick by brick in the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum but I agree the ones they had could have been saved. The houses in the Holyland are about as old and similar in appearance and they are all still standing following frequent renovation so there is no reason this could not be done in a number of cases. Plus it would minimise disruption as it takes a month or two whilst total rebuilds can take a couple of years. But it's the cheaper option and the big building companies don't like that so it won't happen. Keresaspa (talk) 19:47, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Where exactly is the Holyland?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:53, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Holyland (Belfast). Basically the bit between the lower Ormeau Road and Queen's University. The streets have names like Jerusalem Street, Palestine Street etc. so the name Holylands was applied to it. It's where all the students live now and where there is constant recriminations about their boozy antics. I lived there for a while as a kid when it was just a normal residential area but then all the students started moving in so we cleared out. I'm always in two minds about the trouble there - on the one hand I can see the point of view of the few residents left that living there is hellish at times but I remember my own undergraduate days and I was certainly no angel and when a bunch of teenagers leave home for the first time they're never going to be anything but crazy for a while. Ideally the university should provide a lot more halls of residence or even just buy the Holylands area en bloc but the constant funding cuts to education means that will never happen and the problems will continue. Keresaspa (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, Now I know where it is. Actually, I think I went to a party at one of the houses there back in 1981. It's near the Lagan isn't it? I remember the house being one of the traditional two-up.two-down but in good condition. I remember being chatted up by a guy from Dundonald. Oh, I just started the Chlorane Bar attack. It's in a very primitive state. Feel free to add to it,if you wish. I'll take my time on it as my leg is hurting like HELL.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It's still pretty much like that - the houses get renovated from time to time but little or no demolition. I lived in two different houses round there until I was seven. I'll see what I can add to Chlorane later on - bound to be something in Dillon's Trigger Men book. Keresaspa (talk) 19:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have just discovered that the Chlorane Bar stood at number 23 Gresham Street. Number 25 is now the Venus Tattoo Studio, and beside that a parking lot. Would number 23 be where the parking lot is now do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:53, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Venus tattoo studio is the upstairs of that building - the bottom floor is Gresham Tapes, a porn shop! Told you that street was full of them. Private Lines, another porn shop, is 31 and is up the way from Gresham Tapes so 23 must have been where you said. Not that I frequent these sort of places I hasten to add, I just know the area. The only building I remember where the "car park" is was Montgomery's pet shop and that was down facing Haymarket Arcade but there again Chlorane was destroyed before I was born and sometimes they didn't bother rebuilding so that makes sense. I haven't forgotten about adding to it by the way, I just wasn't on here last night. Keresaspa (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Just noticed the image of Venus tattoo in the article itself. That's the side of the building housing Venus and Gresham Tapes facing into the car park meaning that that wall would actually have been the side of the Chlorane, assuming it was terraced (as all the remaining old buildings on Gresham Street are). Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your help on the article. Yes, I imagine that remaining brick wall is all that's left of the Chlorane Bar after it was blown up. I wonder who bombed it? Oh, I saw on Belfast Forum that the Chlorane's owner, Jimmy Coyle, who was muredered in the attack, was originally from Pound Loney. He knew all the customers by their first names. This is another of those sickening attacks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem. I passed that way today and had a slight shudder thinking about what happened. Keresaspa (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * For some reason the image of the owner standing there with his arms to his sides being shot through the heart stays in my mind. How cruel. I asked over at the Belfast Forum as to the Chlorane's precise location. It was not attached to Gresham Tapes as there was a motorcycle shop at number 23a. This shop can actually be seen in that Victor Patterson photo. The Chlorane was exactly opposite Sean Graham's Betting Shop, which makes the newer image uploaded to the article more accurate. To be honest, I find Gresham Street rather appealing. I like that Costumes Galore shop and Harry Halls.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Harry Halls was a grand old shop. When I was a teenager and big into comics they used to sell them upstairs, really rare ones included. Glory days. The last book I bought there was an original John Gunther from the 1940s a couple of years ago. The shop closed a week or two later and has been lying empty ever since. The costume shop is really an adult shop as well, as is the Gresham Bookshop next door to it - porn central round there really! Keresaspa (talk) 20:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the porn merchants and their customers will keep the bulldozers at bay! Oh, yesterday I expanded a stub on a really sickening incident - one which I remember hearing about a lot in the media. The Abercorn Restaurant bombing in 1972. The injuries the people (mostly young women and children) inside suffered were horrific. I recall anytime I was in Belfast, the images of the mutilated and blinded victims always popped into my head. This was another work of art by the "genius" Sean MacStiofain. Most of the victims were Catholic. It is believed that two teenaged girls planted the bomb which they left behind in a handbag underneath one of the tables. Sick.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There was talk about Gresham Street being flattened a few years ago but then the giant recession of doom came along and it was shelved, hopefully for good. It's one of the few parts of the town that actually looks like Belfast these days. And good work on Abercorn. I have a new image for McGurk's coming up as they have erected a facade based on the old bar more or less at the site of the bomb. Keresaspa (talk) 19:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Paddy Wilson and Irene Andrews killings
I created this article today. It was long overdue IMO. If you can add anything to it, feel free. IMO Davy Payne did all the psycho stabbing and hacking. Oh, is that pet shop still on Grasham Street?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:59, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I won't be able to add anything for a while as I'll be offline over the Christmas period. I'll try to scare something up next week sometime though. Also, no pet shops left in Gresham Street. There used to be two but they have both been demolished and replaced with nothing whatsoever. The point in that is lost on me but that's Belfast for you! Keresaspa (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I managed to add a bit after all due to a slight change of plans. By the way if you know the name for that ruse where a guy gets his mate to do a fake phone call to get him away from a woman (or a girl gets her mate etc.) could you edit the article to reflect that. I can't think what the name for that is and so the sentence I have added describing it seems a bit clumsy. Keresaspa (talk) 02:26, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know what the name of that ruse is but you did a good job at describing it in the article. Thanks for that and the other additions. IMO, the two had had an affair, Paddy had already ended it and Irene had made passes at him inside McGlade's that night in the hope of re-igniting it. What do you think? By the way, HAPPY CHRISTMAS!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:24, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Dillon reckons they were doing a turn on and off and suggests that the killers came upon them in a notorious lovers lane. I didn't add that to the article as Dillon himself admits he is speculating but I would be surprised if they hadn't had a bit of history between them. I think I would probably endorse your interpretation to be honest. Oh and happy Christmas to you too :) Keresaspa (talk) 02:54, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Oh, just in keeping with the Christmas cheer, I started this article today: Anne Ogilby killing. It still needs lots of work but at least I got it started. A nasty horrible crime.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:26, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * God almighty. I must admit the particulars of that case are new to me but talk about sickening. I added a little from McDonald & Cusack but I reckon you had most of it covered already so good work. Keresaspa (talk) 20:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * My reaction as well. I had heard of this case before seeing as it happened very close to where I stayed in Pakenham Street in 1981. What is so sickening is the juxtaposition of the two girls dancing to disco music whilst dropping bricks onto the helpless woman's head. Such a primitive stone age act set to a modern beat - a grotesque pantomine. It was obviously a case of Belfast tribalism at work. Although Anne Ogilby was a Protestant, she was an outsider, therefore not "one of their own Protestants", who ended up with a local woman's man. Ironically, the wife herself hadn't even taken part in the killing. Another shocking aspect is that this happened in a capital city within the UK by women who were British citizens and whom regarded themselves as British. Cool, modern Britain of 1974 with its glam rock bands, sexual permissiveness, trendy high-street fashions of flares and platform shoes, yet this punishment killing for a woman's sexual transgression happened not far from Belfast city centre near a university!!!! Can you imagine if it had happened in the west end of London instead? England conveniently eradicated puritanism from within its own borders by exporting it to Ireland and the USA.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There's always been that petty side to Belfast. My Market connections always had a problem with the Falls Road and whenever I pressed them as to why they always struggled for answers, usually falling back on some daft stereotype about "all Falls Roaders are thieves" or something. Like the Market never produced any scumbags! I have no Falls connections but I don't doubt that a lot of people there would have said the exact same thing about the Market, despite the presence of plenty of wasters in their midst. Nonsense really but one of the big problems Belfast has always had is that a lot of people here like to hate, be it the "other side", other districts or immigrants. However I will say in defence of this place (for a change) that the 70s in England was also the heyday of Peter Sutcliffe, Fred West, Trevor Hardy, Patrick Mackay, Robert Maudsley and Donald Neilson so there was some sick activities going on behind the glamour over there too. Keresaspa (talk) 17:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * True. And let's not forget that Jack the Ripper, the Kray Twins, football hooliganism, bootboys, and the rival Mods and Rockers feuds all originated in England! Back in Los Angeles I was beaten up at a club by a gang consisting of two jealous girls (sisters) and a guy! In high school I was threatened by a jealous girl and her cousin-in fact, I had to seek shelter inside a shop! Do you think the local UDA OC was aware of the plan to romper Anne Ogilby?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You get some hellcat girl gangs round here even these days. There's a bunch of them hang about near St Mary's church in the city centre sniffing bags of nail polish and looking trouble. They often start on the Romanian Big Issue sellers although some of them big women would kick their heads in if the notion took them! For my part when I was younger I ran with the metalhead, punk and goth crowds so getting into scrapes with the spides was a regular occurrence and I got and received a few lumps in my time. I'm tall and broad though so I didn't get nearly as much rubbish as some people I knew. As to Anne Ogilby I doubt McMichael would have known about it although off the top of my head I can't think who was bossing Sandy Row at that point so who knows on that score. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew the attack was going to happen but I wonder if the perpetrators perhaps went further than they were supposed to as plenty of supposed punishment beatings got out of hand. Keresaspa (talk) 18:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I remeber seeing the wee hard girls around Belfast in the 1980s. I honestly don't think McMichael knew anything about the planned rompering and even the local OC-had he known about it-would have likely regarded it as a simple catfight amongst women over a man. Lily Douglas and her heavies probably didn't broadcast that they planned to kill her. Did you see what Lily and company looked like? Scary, especially Henrietta Cowan.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've only seen Douglas' picture - hard faced old cow. I found her on Victor Patterson's site. Are the rest of them online? Keresaspa (talk) 19:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've linked the Sunday Life ref at the end of Anne Ogilby's article: I heard mum beg for mercy. This Sunday Life article shows their pics.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yikes, the Cowan one looks mentally disturbed. Weirdly they almost look like a family or something. Freaky! Keresaspa (talk) 19:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Smith's brother Frankie was a UDA gunman killed by the IRA after he shot dead a 15 year old Catholic boy Peter Watterson outside his mum's shop on corner of Donegall Rd and Falls. So you see it runs in the family.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure does. God, how many times must the UDA have hit that corner? It seems like every couple of years somebody got killed at that spot. Keresaspa (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Last summer I met an elderly lady at the beach who was on holiday. She was from the St James Park area. She told me how dangerous her area was during the 1970s and 1980s.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Those sort of areas where there is an interface but no peaceline are always a bit of a nightmare. North Queen Street is the same, even now wlaking down there is a bit hairy. Keresaspa (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Why are sectarian attacks still taking place in Belfast? I'm sorry about your power outage. I hope things are fixed right away. What happened?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose because we still have one group that have been led to believe that a united Ireland will solve all their problems and another that have been lead to believe a united Ireland will destroy them despite the evidence to the contrary on both cases (Protestant in Ireland live perfectly freely in a bankrupt country). The elites may have put aside their differences for lots of money the sake of peace but those divisions remain and, barring a radical worldwide reassessment of the concept of sovereignty, I suspect they will for some time. Bigotry has been ingrained in people for centuries so the Assembly is not going to turn it off like a tap. That's my (rather bleak) take on it anyway! As to the power problem I accidentaly stood on my laptop's charger and it exploded leaving me without the internet. I'm typing this from the public library on Cregagh Road which I loathe because of nosey Parkers and the fact that my fingers are too big to use their Dell keyboards with any comfort. I've ordered a replacement from e-bay but that means relying on the Royal Mail so I'm unlikely to see it anytime soon. With new year coming this is also probably my last chance to get on a public computer for a while so you mightn't hear from me for some time. A pain in the backside really! Keresaspa (talk) 14:31, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In the summer of 2010, my kids brought both laptops to the beach house. We had a power surge and both PCs screens were burnt out! One has been fixed, whilst the other worked for a while but has since died. This computer is a new fixed one. I hate laptops! Hopefully, your new charger will arrive soon. I agree, public computers are a drag.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:53, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Your good wishes must have worked for me as I'm back in business. Of course there was also sorts of mix-ups and mad dashes to late opening electrical shops along the way but the great laptop blackout of 2011 is thankfully over. I only got online at home less than three years ago but already having to do without it felt like losing a limb! Keresaspa (talk) 20:19, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's great news! I know what you mean. When my two PCs blew up last year, I was offline for a month! I felt completely lost as if I were shipwrecked on a deserted island!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:53, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Happy 2012
Anything exciting happening tonight in Belfast to ring in the new year?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy new year to you. No idea what's happening here tonight. i always give it a wide berth personally as it gets a bit too hectic for my blood. I'll be taking it easy at home. Keresaspa (talk) 20:08, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, 2012 has arrived! Last night at a dinner party to celebrate the New Year, there was a terrororial squabble between two Sicilians: one from Province of Catania the other from the Province of Messina. They were hotly debating which region produced the best pastry!! I tell you. Admittedly, the former started the fight as the latter just made a casual comment and the Catania guy took offence. Have you any new ideas regarding articles? I have in mind to create pages on Royal Avenue, Donegall Quay. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:13, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * So Sicily is as territorial as Belfast! Sounds like the sort of silly argument you would get here. You might need to fend off merger types with Royal Avenue as they'll say it covers the same ground as Belfast City Centre but knowing the standards of article you create that shouldn't be an issue. I've a mind to make articles for some of the major roads around Belfast that are missing (Springfield, Antrim, Shore etc.). The only thing putting me off is that some of these have articles for their designation as a traffic road (e.g. A2 road (Northern Ireland) is the same as Shore Road up to a point) so again the merger gnomes might be out in force. Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Each street though is notable on its own such as Royal, Antrim, etc. York Street would make a good article as well. How about the Lisburn and Dublin roads?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Lisburn Road already has an article; Dublin Road might be better as a section of the Golden Mile (Belfast) article (which is in pretty terrible right now but could be decent). I also reckon York Street might be better as a section of a Shore Road article, like the way Peter's Hill is in the Shankill article or the Markets in the Ormeau Road. Of the main residential roads on Belfast I would say those needed are Newtownards Road, Springfield Road, Shore Road and Antrim Road, with possibly the Holywood Road worthwhile as well due to its CS Lewis connections. Castlereagh Road is sort of important as a residential area but I reckon I would struggle for sources whilst the Oldpark Road, which the bus service counts as one of Belfast's 12 main roads, would overlap with Ardoyne too much to justify a separate article. The Woodstock Road-Cregagh Road area should probably have an article too, although that might be better served by expanding the existing Cregagh article and possibly moving it to Cregagh Road. I reckon there is plenty worth adding on Belfast and some of the articles already in existence are of debatable use (Cluan Place is a tiny little street of no more than about 100 people and is notable for no reason other than its peaceline) so if we go down these routes it will keep us busy for a while! Keresaspa (talk) 19:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I like your Shore Road article-nice piece of work and it contains a lot of info. I was thinking of doing the Newtownards Road but the A20 road (Northern Ireland) article pretty much says everything about it so a merger would most likely be suggested. I think I'll do one on Royal Avenue.That street appeals to me a lot. I shall need to do a wee bit of research first, however.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Shore Road still needs a heck of a lot of work on my part. All those sections in the areas of the Shore Road bit need fleshed out big time but I went to bed instead last night! Keresaspa (talk) 19:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

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I need your help
I just created Royal Avenue, Belfast, but it needs more information such as the namnes of businesses and shops, etc which can be found in the street. How does it look, BTW?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I'll get stuck into that as soon as I get Shore Road finished (probably later tonight). Keresaspa (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks a million. I suufered a bit of writer's block-couldn't get the words to flow.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Added a quick bit about the shopping parts. Also mentioned on the main image that, whilst the Bank of Ireland building is still standing, it has been lying empty for a while now. Keresaspa (talk) 22:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks ever so much. It looks great. Oh, I discovered that two UDR soldiers were killed by an IRA bomb in Royal Avenue in 1988. I just added it to the article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Meant to add that myself actually as I found it last night when digging for stuff but it wasn't in a reliable source and I forgot to get one. Still, problem solved now. Keresaspa (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * One of the soldiers (Starrett) died after a nail was blown into his head. Thye were both so young-22.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * God, what a way to go. Personally I don't know what possesses people to join armies. Keresaspa (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. To risk one's life for such meagre wages. Perhaps some men are drawn to military life itself: the danger, challenge, patrols, gunbattles, parades, uniforms, camaradie amongst fellow soldiers-who knows? Personally, I don't see the attraction.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It has always mystified me to be honest. If I wanted camaraderie and a uniform I would just join a football team! Getting shot at - no thanks. Keresaspa (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Anybody who thinks military life is a Boy Scout/Huckleberry Finn adventure should watch the 1986 film Platoon. Did you know that the vast majority of the US military killed in Vietnam were volunteers rather than draftees? Platoon's director Oliver Stone was a volunteer.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Amazingly given the language and violence we watched some of Platoon in school. Mind you the teacher was a pacifist and I reckon he wanted to turn us off militarism. Keresaspa (talk) 17:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Apart from Charlie Sheen, the acting in Platoon was brilliant: Willem Dafoe, Kevin Dillon and Tom Berenger were so believable in their roles. Sheen was too 1980s-even his hairstyle was 1980s. Ridiculous.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Sheen's a rubbish actor. He only ever made it because of his father as far as I'm far as I'm concerned. Keresaspa (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Impressive!
ThE Shore Road article looks wonderful! I'm really impressed with your work. The page is complete and highly-informative, and I absolutely love your image of the old Jennymount mill. I hadn't realised it was still standing-it's fabulous. I added it to the Linenopolis article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Jennymount Mill is about the only one left really. The big office block next door to it as pretty old too, although the bit I took the image of is the oldest part. The office block shows how these old buildings can be reused without demolition so it's a real shame they haven't used it is a lesson for the rest of the city. Gallagher's could easily have been done up the same way after all. Keresaspa (talk) 17:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Jennymount is stupendous. A pity Gallaher's, Robb's and Grand Central couldn't have been reused. I discovered a Forum where they're discussing the Robin Jackson and Robert McConnell articles.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * See, you're famous now :) Keresaspa (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL. So where is my paycheque to accompany the fame?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:44, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If only! Keresaspa (talk) 19:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Know anything about this shady outfit?
Have you ever heard anything about the shady, undercover SAS 216 unit otherwise known as the "Nighthats"? They operated out of Ballykelly in the mid-1970s. This is the first I've heard of them.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Can't say I have offhand. Where did you come across them? Keresaspa (talk) 19:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There is an old (2002) article from the Free Library in which it states that the NI Ombudsman will be investigating the Joe Campbell murder outside Cushendall RUC station in 1977 and in which Robin Jackson was said to have been involved (no surprise that!) A member of this shady SAS 216 unit called the "Nighthats" was also allegedly involved. If you Google SAS Nighthats Ballykelly it should come up. That's the only time I've ever heard of them. The 1982 IRA bombing against the Droppin' Well disco took place in Ballykelly.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Seen it now. I'm presuming they mean Ballykelly in the north west. Mind you I don't know that area at all. Keresaspa (talk) 17:49, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither do I, the farthest west I've been in Northern Ireland is Omagh. This article mentions Ballykelly in relation to the SAS: 14th Intelligence Company.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I know from Downpatrick in the south to Ballymena in the north and that's about it. I was in Stroke City for a day once years ago and I've passed through Armagh on trains and buses but never actually been in it, whilst I've never even been close to Tyrone and Fermanagh. I don't drive so getting to these places would be a lot of hassle and there is too little to do in them to justify it really. I think I have a book about the SAS in Northern Ireland floating about somewhere. I might have got rid of it as it was in terrible order but it could be in a cupboard somewhere. If so it might have a bit about these Nightcaps. Keresaspa (talk) 18:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * They sound sinister. Ballykelly was an interrogation centre. Oh, today is the anniversary of the Kingsmill massacre. Eerie that a guy with an English accent was there just like at the scene of the Miami Showband ambush.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Very coincidental isn't it?! Keresaspa (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Aye. And there was a man with an English accent in Dublin the day of the 1974 car bombings. Scary stuff.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Found that book I was talking about but nothing about Unit 216. There seems to be nothing about them anywhere except in relation to that case in the Free Library article. Keresaspa (talk) 00:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's why it's so sinister. If it was such a well-kept secret what was actually going on that they don't want the outside world knowing about?!! Even the name Nighthats raises goosebumps. The SAS were in Ireland long before their "official" deployment in January 1976. This mysterious unit was operating back as far as 1974. Then there was Nairac and Ball's Four Field Survey Troop operating out of Castledillon.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The SAS have been a state terrorist organisation for some time as far as I'm concerned. That book I mentioned does talk about how they regularly crossed the border into County Louth as part of their operations without the consent of the Republic of Ireland government, a clear breach of sovereignty. Not only in Northern Ireland though as they have done a lot of frankly wrong things elsewhere. Mind you, you wouldn't know that from the media in the UK which seems obsessed with presenting them as the best thing ever. Keresaspa (talk) 17:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I reckon the SAS was involved in Kingsmill. Yesterday I created a new article: 1972 Donegall Street bombing. Another horror show put on courtesy of Londoner John Stephenson-oops, Sean MacStiofain.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice work, very comprehensive. And I reckon you're spot on about Kingsmill. Keresaspa (talk) 19:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I just came across this article today: Four Square Laundry. Have you ever heard of this unit? I never once heard the name mentioned. Bizarre. Just how many secret units did British Military Intelligence operate in Northern Ireland? So far we know about Four Field Survey Troop working out of Castledillon, Nighthats from Ballykelly; now this Four Square Laundry in Belfast!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I came across them for the first time last week when I was browsing through Dillon's Trigger Men book. He mentions them for a couple of pages in relation to a couple of PIRA double agents by the name of Seamus Wright and Kevin McKee (Billy McKee's nephew no less). It didn't occur to me for a second that there might be an article about it on here. I see Dillon is not quoted as a source in the article so I might have a look and see if there is anything worth adding later. Keresaspa (talk) 17:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Intelligence also ran a massage parlour and had female soldiers selling cosmetics door-to-door in West Belfast in order to gather info on the IRA. My God. Oh, did the Donegall Street bomb go off outside the News Letter offices or several buildings away? Why would there have been so many people in Church Street that morning? I saw it on Google and it is just a narrow street with offices fronting a small park. Perhaps it had more shops and activity in 1972?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Dillon mentions about the massage parlour was well - Wright and McKee tipped the Provies off about all of that stuff after being uncovered as British agents. As to the bomb I'm not sure where it was to be honest but I can tell you that the Church Street you see now and how it was then are very different. That whole paved area in front of Saint Anne's was only built in the early 90s so it used to be a lot busier. Us weirdos used to hang around there when I was younger and the Occupy Belfast mob have their tents there right now. Donegall Street would have been a lot busier back then, although when I think back to my childhood in the 80s it was an area generally avoided as there was nothing really there. I guess it must have struggled to recover from the bomb. Keresaspa (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you're right about Donegall Street. Although the death toll was low compared to Omagh and Dublin, the nature of the injuries (lost eyes, limbs blown off, etc.) would have left a lasting impression on the collective pysche such as Abercorn.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There was a lot of that in 70s from both sides really. They weren't content to just kill they had to do it hard way. I've added a bit to the Laundry article - most of the main points were covered but the bits Dillon had about Wirght and McKee were missing so I added them. As yet I've not found anything worth adding to your Donegall Street article though. Keresaspa (talk) 18:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The really horrible thing about bombings is that whilst the dead are noted, the injured are largely ignored even though they might have to spend a lifetime blind, disfigured or in agony. As you said, the groups responsible weren't content to just kill, they had to do it the hard way. I think The Rose and Crown bombing merits an article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Rose and Crown bombing is a bit light on sources from what I can see. Mind you, you always find plenty that I miss so if that's the case when why not. Keresaspa (talk) 17:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately there's very little on the Rose and Crown which is surprising seeing as it got a lot of publicity when it happened. I'll try to Google some old newspaper accounts like I did with the Donegall Street bombing. Speaking of the latte,r over on YouTube there's a documentary called Ulster Troubles, part 18 and at the end of that video it shows footage of the bombing. There's a horrific scene where a soldier is holding a girl whose had her legs blown off and she looks to be screaming. Very moving and troubling. It did happen just outside the News Letter building.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I could find nothing really apart from mentions that a bomb had taken place. Unfortunately it occurred at a time when pub bombings were a regular happening so the sources don't focus on it. Keresaspa (talk) 18:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I cannot find anything on the Rose and Crown atrocity other than bare statistics-not enough to write an article. According to Ed Moloney in his Voices From the Grave David Ervine may have been involved.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I drew a blank as well - probably have to put that one on the back burner. Seeing as Ervine went to prison for bomb-making offences and given that he lived comparatively near the lower Ormeau I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved. No question about it he was a bad un in his youth. Keresaspa (talk) 19:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Seeing that Adams and others held Ervine in high esteem, there's probably a "gentlemen's agreement" amongst journalists not to bring up the "Rose and Crown" attack lest Ervine's likely role in it emerges. A bit like JFK and his myriad girlfriends: the press all knew as did the Secret Service, but nobody wanted to destroy the fairytale of Camelot.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you're probably right. I added those two images to Shore Road as promised by the way. Keresaspa (talk) 17:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * They look good. I wonder who or what event should have an article? Perhaps the 1973 Coleraine massacre? Fat Jackie Thompson? Oh perhaps Albert "Ginger" Baker. Now there was a bad one. Not only did he lob a grenade at a bus of people, he took part in a UDA "romper room" murder. Is he still in prison?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:21, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There's plenty about Ginger Baker in Dillon's Trigger Men and the Mad Dog book has a lot about Thompson so I reckon they would certainly be doable. Coleraine massacre I would need to check - do you have many sources for that one? Not sure if Baker is still inside though. Keresaspa (talk) 21:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Fat Jackie and Ginger
I see you've done Fat Jackie (great article, by the way!) and I just started Albert "Ginger" Baker, although the article is in its infancy stages and needs alot of work.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It occurred to me that the main source for Fat Jackie would be Lister and Jordan and I don't think it is on Goggle Books so I thought it best to go ahead and create it. Nice work on Baker - I'll have a go with Dillon's book later on and see if it has anything worth adding (won't be for a while though as the 2012 BDO World Darts Championship final is tonight and I wouldn't miss that for love nor money! Bit gutted that I sold my copy of Livingstone's Labour now. Keresaspa (talk) 17:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help! I still need to add to it-especially the allegations part. I hope you enjoy the darts match. I was never much of a darts fan to be honest.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Darts is my second favourite "sport" (after football) and the final was a cracker, even if it was marred a bit by overly partisan crowd and commentators. I've added what I can find from Dillon and McDonald and Cusack, neither of whom seem particularly convinced by Baker's claims. I should also note that Dillon consistently refers to him as Walker Baker, like a doubled-barrelled surname, whilst the other two don't so I've done a redirect for the full name just in case. Keresaspa (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Your additions have greatly improved the article. Thanks a million. Dillon has a habit of getting names wrong as he did in The Dirty War with Horace Boyle and Wesley Sommerville. He most likely got Walker from Ginger's middle name of Wallace! Or maybe he got Cream mixed up with another 60s group The Walker Brothers!!!! Who knows?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Dillon's other habit is making up details that he couldn't possibly know, like saying that Irene Andrews was made to watch Paddy Wilson's killing. It might have been the case but he couldn't possibly know that for sure so it struck me as embellishment. There's a story about Pratt Craig he tells in the Trigger Men that I find hard to believe when he suggests that Craig tested a jammed gun by pointing it at a random guy in a snooker hall and shooting him dead. To me that sounds like Craig probably killed somebody in a snooker hall over some disagreement or other but Dillon wanted to make it sound even worse as it was part of a section where he was comparing Craig to the Mafia. I rather got the feeling he had watched Joe Pesci in Goodfellas before he wrote that paragraph! Even if a loyalist source had told him that happened it sounds like the sort of story that for instance Taylor would have reported but would also have stated that he was unconvinced by it. Don't get me wrong Dillon is a fine investigative journalist but when I heard he had a sideline in novel writing I was not in the least surprised. But if he doesn't know a legend like the real Ginger Baker he needs his ears testing - one of the all-time greats right there. I might have found another source for Belfast's Ginger Baker but I'll check to make sure later. Keresaspa (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * My favourite investigative journalist is Joe Tiernan. God, does he have some sources! Taylor is very precise and unbiased, however, he rarely gets his feet wet. For instance why didn't he interview Billy Wright at Drumcree? He never mentioned Hanna, Jackson or Ginger in his book, nor did he refer to the Chlorane Bar attack. As for Ginger baker, the drummer, I reckon Cream was one of the underrated 1960s groups. They had some brilliant songs: Badge, White Room, Tales of Brave Ulysses. Oh, seeing as tomorrow there's total Wikipedia blackout for 24 hours, I decided to create another srticle: Benny's Bar bombing. I found some sources yesterday. It was very upsetting to write, I must say and I feel depressed. I haven't a clue who carried out the attack, although three UDA men were convicted of the bombing. One was a local docker who worked with the dad of one of the dead girls. As for Dillon's anecdote about Craig shooting a random guy dead inside a pub, wouldn't that have warranted retaliation?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Tiernan is fearless and no mistake which admittedly Taylor is not. I like Taylor because he sticks to the facts though. It's probably a hangover from all my years in academia (I was at university for 11 years) but when they get too much into surmising and personal opinion I always get wary (a fault of Dillon's I reckon). Cream did some great work and what Baker did with Ginger Baker's Airforce was top notch too. I love all the old psychedelic and progressive rock stuff. Oddly enough I passed where Benny's bar was today. That whole area is a bit dead now. I used to drink at Pat's Bar in that very street now and then but it closed a few years back and that street seems a bit eerie now. The road, such as it is, still has the tramlines running down it. As for Craig did he kill a guy in a snooker club? Quite probably. Did it happen the way Dillon suggests? I seriously doubt it. Maybe he shot a local hood or somebody trying to muscle in on his rackets but just to test if a gun was working or not - come on! Like you say somebody would have sought payback for somebody being killed over something as trivial as that. Keresaspa (talk) 20:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The area around where Benny's stood does look creepy. Like a ghost town. Where was Pat's Bar? On Garmoyle Street?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:04, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * On the corner of Barrow Square and Princes Dock Street (if you believe the street sign) or Princess Dock Street (if you believe the internet). It only closed about two years ago, around the same time the Rotterdam went to the wall. Other boozers round there have closed or are closing too. Nobody really lives there (apart from a few houses in Princes(s) Dock Street) and there is little to attract people so I suppose it is inevitable but Pat's was a nice homely place and I would miss it as a haunt if I still drank. Keresaspa (talk) 19:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

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