User talk:Kerry Raymond/Archive 7

Re: Qld electoral changes
Hi Kerry, thank you for explaining that to me. I won't change it for any other pages but will keep a reminder to change the division for Narangba myself when it does come into effect. Thanks, AcrateofTuna. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AcrateofTuna (talk • contribs) 04:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Kerry, just in relation to this, the data for Queensland localities in Wikidata should be mostly comprehensive now—all localities should have LGA, postcode, QPN ID, ABS codes, (current) state electoral district and federal electoral division. They should also have the correct classification and description as per the place names database but there's a bit more work to do on this. I have also tried to identify all the distinct places with the same name (this query).


 * You can even generate your own Wikidata "gazetteer" with this query.


 * What I will do (next week when I am on leave) is generate a page with the new infobox code for every locality where the redistribution will result in a change to the electoral district (this will give some idea of the scope which will hopefully put your mind at ease), and another page with a locality list for each district. --Canley (talk) 02:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * . Firstly it looks likes there have been great things happening with wikidata while I was away (clearly I should go away more often!). Well done to all those involved! However, I just took a lot at a random suburb https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5073004 Chapel Hill in Brisbane] and I am seeing some of the things you mention (e.g. postcode, QPN Id) but the LGA, electorates and state seem to be 4 values for "located in the administrative territorial entity". How do we tell these apart? Wouldn't we do better to have them with more distinct names? Kerry (talk) 03:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * A specific question about the state electorate data is where are you getting it from? I have the old and new SHAPE files for the Qld electorate data and they are NOT as helpful as I expected. It turns out that when drawing the boundaries, they took short-cuts in the not-populated areas (roads, parks, etc) so that when you mathematically overlay the electoral boundaries with the locality boundaries, you pick up a number of 2nd/3rd electorates which are correct mathematically - the locality is partially in the 2nd/3rd electorate BUT there are no houses in that overlap, so for practical purposes it is wrong to say that the locality is in that electorate. For that reason when I generate multiple electorates for any locality (when creating infoboxes), I have to double-check by eye with the satellite overlay so I can see the housing. For these reasons, I wasn't very confident that automating the set of localities whose state electorate was changing was going to be super-helpful as both the old and new electorates have these "phantom" overlaps which force all the double-checking-by-eye in any case. Hence my interest in a more useful dataset where someone has already eliminated the phantoms. Kerry (talk) 03:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion on my and Mattinbgn's Wikidata talk pages about the use of "P131: located in the administrative territorial entity" for electoral district of places—short version is there is no specific property for this (the "electoral district" property applies to people), and when this has been proposed, the consensus was to use P131 because queries can just filter by the type of territorial entity. I suggested (and I can easily add this later) adding a qualifier to any P131 statements such as "object has role (P3831)" (local government area/state electoral district of Queensland/division of the Australian House of Representatives) and so on, but the key thing is to link the items at this stage, they can be better qualified or have the property replaced later.
 * As to the allocation of districts I actually used an official Excel file from the Electoral Commission Queensland rather than doing it in a GIS (although I did that too for comparison). You are right that using the shapefiles alone will result in some minor overlap—I did work out an acceptable threshold which should mitigate this, but where possible I would use a database or spreadsheet from the relevant electoral commission with the geographical method as a last resort. --Canley (talk) 03:37, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to get a copy of that Excel file from ECQ emailed to me at kerry.raymond@wikimedia.org.au? I emailed ECQ asking for something like that and they only pointed me to the before/after SHAPE files.

Hi Kerry, I have generated a file of the infobox fields where the electoral divisions appear to have changed in the Queensland redistribution (based on the 2016 shapefiles). You can see it in my user space at User:Canley/Redistributions/Queensland 2016. To get an idea of the scope, it is based on the original 2008 ECQ file which contained 3,098 localities. The program has detected 1,068 localities which have changed electorates in the redistribution. 339 of these are redlinks, which leaves 729 links to existing articles. At a fairly conservative 30 seconds to open the blue link in a new tab, click edit, replace the infobox fields, preview and save, it should take one person about 5 to 6 hours to update all the articles. With 2 or 3 editors working on it could take 2 to 3 hours? Until the election is called, feel free to browse, check and edit the page (if you spot any errors) at your leisure. --Canley (talk) 10:27, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I suspected there'd be quite a lot. As for "zombie" 2nd/3rd electorates that need visual inspection to double-check, we do have the problem as we expected. First one I randomly checked was Clontarf is showing as Redcliffe -> Redcliffe & Murrumba, but Murrumba turns out to be a zombie. It occurs to me that one way to roll it out in a leisurely way is to create a template OldOrNewElectorate(old,new). All this template does initially is return the "old" electorate. When it is time to switch to the new electorates, we just change the template to return the new electorate. By using such a template, I could start adding in the new electorates now (having checked any suspect 2nd/3rd ones), quickly switch over to the new values when the election is called and then we can remove the template in favour of just the new value in a leisurely way afterwards (that would actually be a simple AWB I think as no checking is required to remove the old electorate). Your thoughts? Kerry (talk) 00:01, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Just a format question. Would it be easy for you to genearate the differences as a CSV instead of the format you have it in on your User Page? It's easier for me to construct scripts from a CSV. I guess I was thinking of the columns being name, old1, old2, old3, new1, new2, new3 (order of columns is unimportant). If it's not dead easy, don't worry, I can achieve the same effect by other means. Kerry (talk) 00:01, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's a great idea to quickly switch it over. I see what you mean, the segment of Clontarf in Murrumba has a substantial area (3.9 sqkm) but is all in that unpopulated Hays Inlet part. It's no problem to output the data in CSV or any format, I'll work on it and send it to you. --Canley (talk) 01:15, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

More CC-BY heritage!
Not sure if we've had this conversation before, but I've just noticed the New South Wales State Heritage Register has gone CC-BY - and unlike some of the others, their online content is pretty great. Don't suppose you're feeling like tackling another project? :P The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 11:02, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You *have* been busy with other things lately! :-) See and I am in conversation with User:Rangasyd who is interested in rolling out articles. So I am starting to "tool up". I have downloaded all the NSW SHR entries (their website has local govt and other heritage things but I see the State Heritage Register as the priority). I've extracted the preliminary "facts" into a spreadsheet, name, address, suburb, lga, coords, various SHR categories it's in etc. I've got an enquiry in the the NSW Govt Dept involved to clarify some fine details in relation to the image licensing, the NSW SHR has many CC-BY images we can use from the outset (unless the QHR that released the images after I had rolled out many articles so I was dealing with images manually, whereas I hope to have a more automated approach with NSW). The step is to determine what narrative info we want scraped off the webpages and start the conversation about the structure of the article. So, it's starting. From the QHR experience, there's a lot of "pre-work" before the first article actually rolls out, but from my QHR experience, I will do even more pre-work this time because the more you can generate the faster the rollout can be. And the rollout is NOT fast as we learned from the QHR. There's always a lot of stuff that a human needs to do. By yeah, it's all happening ... slowly ... I'm currently supporting a 9-week online Wikipedia training course for 300 USA public librarians as one of the "mentors". They've just learned basic editing in this the 3rd week so their first edits are coming soon. The first 2 weeks were policies and how to assess article quality -- not in the sense of assigning Wikipedia's quality ratings, but in order for them to decide if they should recommend a Wikipedia article to one of their library patrons, which was a quite interesting topic as their "homework" was to read a couple of articles from a small list and assess them according to series of criteria which was quite an interesting exercise for me to read their comments -- seeing how they saw Wikipedia articles). 21:49, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

The Boomerang
Greetings Kerry, I was just reading Samuel Griffith - it mentions him writing articles for the (not linked) The Boomerang founded by William Lane. Is it the same publication as The Boomerang (which doesn't mention Lane)? Thanks for any help, JennyOz (talk) 02:33, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think so. In William Lane's ADB entry it says "... He was also an active participant in Queensland's developing trade union movement. In 1887 he helped to launch the weekly Boomerang, which he co-edited ...". It seems unlikely there were two Boomerang newspapers launched in Brisbane in 1887. Kerry (talk) 02:45, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Also relevant (looks like Lane founded it and Lukin came later):

Kerry (talk) 02:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Kerry, I couldn't find who else involved per 'he helped to launch' but have tweaked a few articles. JennyOz (talk) 07:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

just a suggestion

 * QLD=y|QLD-importance=low one small problem with most state projects is the over-blown cat area of just an idea - btw longhair is back!! JarrahTree 15:00, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It can probably be done but it needs a different regular expression to the one I am currently using. But I don't see the point of pretending we are assessing when we are not and particularly if the assumption is that there is nothing of high/medium importance left to write about. Wouldn't it be easier to put a note on the table? "Please assume all non-assessed artices have low-importance and they are probably stubs too". Actually there is a research project which has had a high success rate of machine-assessment on article quality so we may see that be rolled out to interested projects. I know there was a recently proposed project to do something similar with article importance but I don't know if it's actually happening nor if they are getting interesting results (I would imagine they might infer importance from inbound links from high/medium importance articles, a bit like Google's PageRank algorithm) Kerry (talk) 15:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * fair enough. my reply to the above is very very long, if I made it - some other time. cheers JarrahTree 15:23, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest
Hi. Thankyou for your participation in the challenge series or/and contests. In November The Women in Red World Contest is being held to try to produce new articles for as many countries worldwide and occupations as possible. There will be over $4000 in prizes to win, including Amazon vouchers and paid subscriptions. If this would appeal to you and you think you'd be interested in contributing new articles on women during this month for your region or wherever please sign up in the participants section. The articles done may also count towards the ongoing challenge. If you're not interested in prize money yourself but are willing to participate and raise money to buy books about women for others to use, this is also fine. Help would also be appreciated in drawing up the lists of missing articles. If you think of any missing articles please add them to the sub lists by continent at Missing articles. Thankyou, and if taking part, good luck!♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi, no worries if you're not interested but struggling to find missing women bios for WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest/Missing articles/Oceania!♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:41, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Not so much a question of interest but a question of being very busy with several other things. There's a bunch of Qld women's redlinks at here and the ones that are not yet linked as either blue/red have a reasonably high probability of being usable redlinks. This list is a subset of this male-and-female set of missing Australian biographies, see [here] in the list items A to Z (probably a superset of the first list). This second list is worse as generally you need to check the red links don't exist under a variant name AND you need to check that the blue links are directing to the right person. But the good news is that anyone in these lists has an entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography which pretty much ensures you have notability and there is source material (but alas copyright so not directly reusable). But it is a better than having no guarantee of source material availability. Kerry (talk) 13:04, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm about to request a £250 grant for a prize towards ODNB and Welsh biography entries and I will see if we can include the Australian ADB list as well.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:05, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I feel stupid..
.. regarding Charles Armitage Brown and the talk section, I feel I should be able to add something, but I appear to have brain fade and can't figure out how to, so I'll have to say it here: Thank you for your edits, your pointing out that I can edit talk (that pencil should have been a give-away!) and the notes on what is allowed as a link - I took other things in the article as a guide, so I plead guilty by association! Thanks for fixing it all up. John Decker NZ (talk) 07:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah, to be fair, only one external link was mine - the photo. The other - the drawing - was already there, and that's where I took my inspiration. John Decker NZ (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2017 (UTC)


 * No worries; I realised you were relatively new to contributing to Wikipedia. Are you saying that photo of the grave is one you took yourself? If so, then it is possible for you to upload it to Wikimedia Commons and we can include it in the article. Of course, that means you are releasing the photo under a Creative Commons licence so that others may re-use your photo for other purposes. If you are happy to do that, go to Wikimedia Commons (which is the same username and password as you use for Wikipedia) and choose the file from your hard drive and then answer the questions you will be asked as best you can. Don't worry about the categories. I can fix them up for you later. When you finish, you should end up with a screen saying "Thanks for uploading" and then "To use the file in a wiki, copy this text into a page:". Copy the text from the box into Charles Armitage Brown at start of the paragraph where the grave is being discussed. If you run into any problem, let me know here or at Talk: Charles Armitage Brown or on your own User talk:John Decker NZ and we can sort it out. Kerry (talk) 11:07, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!
No it's all good I just saw all the awesome pages you have done, being a Queenslander my self it was just awesome that someone was putting in the hard work to recognise a lot of the regions heritige, and yes I'm very new to wiki I'm in year 12 and will be graduating soon I just got annoyed with a lot of the vandalism going on so I enjoy fixing wiki pages and deleting the useless stuff. It's pretty much all I do for fun. Thanks for the tips I'll be sure to use them and if I get stuck along the way Ill hit you up!! Thanks a heap

Q Alumina
Wouldnt be an article if it wast for trove and the canberra times... sigh JarrahTree 01:40, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed, 3 cheers for both Trove and the Canberra Times (which has been a great help for reliable sources from 1955 to 1980). Kerry (talk) 03:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Streets named for people with Wikipedia articles
Hi Kerry,

Many Brisbane streets are named for "less famous" people who have WP articles, particularly politicians, but I am having trouble finding any references online. I wonder if you can point me to any suitable references for the list below. A group of streets in a former Housing Commission area in Carina were named for former MLAs in the 1950s. Some of them are:
 * Buckley St
 * Chataway St
 * Jones Rd
 * Maughan St
 * McGahan St
 * Summerville St
 * Winstanley St

Cleers, John Downsize43 (talk) 05:22, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In my experience, the origin of most street names can't be pinned down with any certainty. Street names are generally proposed by the developer of the subdivision and the council decides to accept them or not (which saves the council from thinking up all the names). Whether any documentation survives and, if it does, whether it contains any origins of the names is a matter of chance. In this case any surviving documentation would be with Brisbane City Council Archives and/or the Queensland State Archives, although it's possible the records might not be archived and still held in the Dept of Housing or Public Works. You might get lucky with a newspaper article at the time or records in a local history society (although they may be based on oral history sources). A quick search at a number of these didn't turn anything up in this case, but with the Brisbane City Council Archives, you may need to enquire as their records are less searchable online. In my experience, most street name origins are "intelligent guesses" based on knowledge of the history/pioneers of the area or a pattern of naming (as you are seeing) and often based on oral history sources. In the absence of a citation, I think the best you can do is simply point out the pattern. "A number of street names in the SuchAndSuch area are the surnames of Members of the Queensland Legislative Assembly, e.g. ...". That's merely an observation supportable by a map reference and the Former Members database, and stops short of saying that the streets were actually named after them. Let the reader decide for themselves if it's a coincidence or not. Kerry (talk) 15:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your advice. I will have a play with it later (on a real computer) Downsize43 (talk) 22:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello again Kerry,

Found some stuff that you might wish to pursue, while researching Willard Street, Carina Heights. 1. The Woman's Christian Temperance Union held meetings at Willard House, North Quay in 1933. 2. Mary Bannister Willard was a prominent member of WCTU in the US. 3. Willard House provides a link to Frances Willard House (Evanston, Illinois).

Make of this what you will - I guess our Willard House has gone to God.

Cheers, John Downsize43 (talk) 03:47, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, it sems a lot of women's temperance buildings were called Willard Hall/House presumably after one or both of the Willards; there was also Frances Willard (suffragist) who was the sister-in-law of Mary Bannister Willard, who were both prominent in the temperance movement. My 1931 street directory has Willard House (listed as WCTU) on North Quay between Turbot and Tank Streets (2nd building after Turbot Street). The Commonwealth Law Courts are there today (map). Kerry (talk) 06:17, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
Thanks for the encouraging message Kerry. I am finding editing to be highly addictive!

WistfulVistas (talk) 13:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC) 

The Signpost: 23 October 2017
 * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:36, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

queensland copper mine(s)?
you might or might not be interested in: -


 * Mount Elliot mine - looks like a mistaken duplicate wrong spelling of the next
 * Mount Elliott mine - not sure how Ernest Henry is Mount Elliot(t) sic
 * Mount Elliott Mining Complex - possibly nothing to do with the above two at all?

looks like (the top two) the equivalent of a bet each way from a finnish source ? (?) - any thoughts ? I realise mining is not a usual topic but hoped your local knowledge might help JarrahTree 01:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Surely the single 't' article with a prod is not the right one? JarrahTree 01:31, 23 October 2017 (UTC) I had thought the second one which associates Ernest Henry with Mount Elliott might be a complete furphy ? JarrahTree 01:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think they are duplicates. This map may be helpful here; I found it when I rescued the deadlink citation for Mount Elliot mine (one T - a misspelling I presume). The one-T Mount Elliot mine has coords that are within the heritage boundaries of Mount Elliott Mining Complex and consistent with the Mount Elliott mine shown in the centre of the rescued map (if you want to see it in Google Map satellite view, see here). It appears to be a recent gold mine in the vicinity of the historic mine. This is not suprising. Mining is a game of ratios between the value of the mineral and the cost of extracting the mineral. Many old mining area get re-opened when the price goes up or new technology brings down the cost of extraction. Whether or not the mine is currently active, I can't say, but it was active within the last decade. So I think the only problem so far identified with the one-T Mount Elliot article is the spelling (should be two-Ts).

As to its relationship with the two-T Mount Elliott mine, things get messy. This two-T mine is a copper mine, not a gold mine, so that seems to suggest they are not duplicates. The coords give for the two-T mine are vaguely in the vicinity of the one-T mine and the historic mine but still a way off. However, the article gives us a big clue. It mentions "Ernest Henry". Look at the map I rescued above and you will see Ernest Henry at the very top of the map, north of Cloncurry. A quick Google search reveals this is an active mine which describes itself as 38 km NE of Cloncurry consistent with the rescued map and if you look in Google Satellite View, you can see it 38 km NE of Cloncurry. Now my problem is that if this article is about the Ernest Henry mine, why is it called Mount Elliott mine and why does it give coords that are neither for the Ernest Henry mine nor (looking at Google maps) any mine at all? I think the problems are more in this article. Kerry (talk) 01:58, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, and there is an article on Ernest Henry mine whose contents appear similar but not identical to the two-T Mount Elliot mine.

The Mount Elliott mine is a large copper mine located in eastern Australia in Queensland. Ernest Henry represents one of the largest copper reserves in Australia and in the world having estimated reserves of 475 million tonnes of ore grading 0.5% copper and 4.56 million oz of gold.[1]

The Ernest Henry mine is a large copper mine located in eastern Australia, in the state of Queensland. Ernest Henry represents one of the largest copper reserves in Australia and in the world having estimated reserves of 167 million tonnes of ore grading 1.1% copper and 2.67 million oz of gold.[1]

Looking at the history of Mount Elliot mine, Mount Elliott mine and Ernest Henry mine, I note they were all created on 5 July 2013 by along with many other new mine articles. I am guessing that some of the details got muddled between the articles. Maybe we should just ask Bine Mai how to fix them up, since he is probably the person who knows most about them and the sources involved. Kerry (talk) 02:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your hard work of checking Kerry - appreciate your effort

Suspect knows nothing of local context from the way they were created - I find it very very hard to believe there are two mines in QLD with a difference of a 't' - I mean even Queenslanders cannot be that smar't' JarrahTree 05:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Phabricator login fix
Hey :) I'll fork this tangent to keep the Wikilove page on-topic. There is definitely not a problem with spaces in usernames, so something else must be happening. It should be easy to fix, if it's one of these 2 problems:

If/Once you are logged in at mediawiki: (which should happen automatically if you're logged-in here at Enwiki, but occasionally has glitches - if so, just manually login there with your normal Wikipedia username/password), then once you click the sunflower button at Phabricator it should just send you to mediawiki and ask you click a button to confirm (screenshot). Please try it again, after verifying you're logged-in at mediawiki-wiki.

If that doesn't work, try and replace the space with an underscore.

If neither of those work, I'll try to find a dev to help further. Let me know if you're using any privacy/security browser-extensions or browser-preferences that might be interfering (e.g. cookie blockers). Cheers, Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * What happens for me. I am logged into Wikipedia as Kerry Raymond. I use Chrome. I don't use cookie blockers. I click on your link . It takes me to a page titled "Log in or register to Wikimedia Phabricator". I click the "login or register Mediawiki" button with the yellow flower at the lower part of the screen. I get taken to a screen entitled OAuth which has a popup over the top of it saying "Hi Kerry Raymond,In order to complete your request, phabricator-production needs permission to access information on all projects of this site on your behalf. No changes will be made with your account". (that is, similar to the screenshot in your message above). I click the Allow button. It then takes me to the page with the title "Create a New Account" which rejects me with the error message about the User name having to consist only of certain characters. If I back out (in the browser) to the OAuth screen with popup (all as before) and click Allow again, I get a error message "This request has already been completed and cannot be resubmitted. Go back to the application and try to connect your account again, or contact the application author. OAuth token already used, E009". So two different errors but neither gets me into phabricator. Kerry (talk) 04:45, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the clear details. I've now tried and confirmed that it won't allow spaces. However it does work fine, if you replace the space with an underscore - that seems to be the most common workaround (e.g.), and that's what people tend to do in other situations where spaces aren't accepted (e.g. IRC names and email addresses). I've added that to the docs, too. Let me know if that's an acceptable workaround, and if it works for you? Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 16:40, 23 October 2017 (UTC)


 * It worked for me in the sense I could login (although if we have SUL, why not use it?). The site itself though was completely unnavigable. I tried to find the comment you had already added by searching on "Wikilove comment" (and other variations within your user name) and could not find it. It was only that I recalled you had included the URL on the WikiLove talk page that enabled me to find it. But back to the login, putting the information in that Help file rather presumes the person has already managed to login and find their way to that URL? I think that login screen needs the ability for a person to get help at that point. Is there a way I can get a list of "my contributions" on phabricator so I can go back and check on them? I could not find anything like that. Kerry (talk) 23:05, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In order:
 * Re: SUL: Phabricator is using our SUL accounts to "authenticate" (hence you don't need a new or existing password). I don't know the technical reasons for why it isn't all automagically done ahead of time. Probably something to do with security-separation of the 2 systems, or Phabricator only being able to support Latin characters (Mediawiki is waaaaay ahead of most of the rest of the world, when it comes to many aspects of software-internationalization), or scalability (not having to instantly create accounts for all (17+ million) users who've ever registered a wikimedia-wiki account), or perhaps something else entirely.
 * Re: links. Sorry I didn't include a pointer from here back to our initial discussion (now done), so that it would've been easier to find.
 * Re: Help docs: Good point. I've filed T179126 (I didn't subscribe you, in case you don't want to be bothered by updates for it).
 * Re: list of your contributions: Click the "Profile icon" next to the search bar (green "K"), and then "Profile", it will show your recent activity. - There are many customization options if you become a poweruser (e.g. my main page looks like this), but they're quite complicated to setup.
 * HTH! Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

‎Central Queensland University
Thanks for your note. See this question, which I left at WP:RDH, although I removed it upon reading farther down the R'hampton article and editing the university article. So is Rockhampton City just another suburb of the city of Rockhampton, for which the LGA's assigned precise boundaries (comparable to City of Melbourne and City of Sydney, minus the governmental powers), or is it somehow a sub-government under the LGA's authority? Although I'm an American, I'm aware that QLD has much bigger urban LGAs than the other states, but I assumed that they functioned like the LGAs in other states, so now I'm confused :-) Nyttend (talk) 02:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Hm, interesting; I thought "suburb" was analogous to the US "neighborhood", i.e. a portion of a larger community (or multiple communities, e.g. Forest Hill, Ohio in two separate municipalities) with its own name and self-identity, but not necessarily boundaries. Some US cities have official neighborhood boundaries (e.g. this image depicts a Pittsburgh street sign telling you that you're in the Mexican War Streets neighborhood), so I'm familiar with the concept, but it didn't occur to me that all suburbs would have official boundaries.  I just assumed that QLD, with its massive LGAs, didn't have this kind of naming issue, since the LGA-to-metro correspondence is a lot closer than in other capitals, like Melbourne and Sydney.  Nyttend (talk) 03:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanation. This helps me to understand better; I'd just assumed that "suburb" was used in place of "neighbourhood", rather than the two having distinct meanings.  (I have acquaintances in the Melbourne area, thanks to church connections, but political geography just isn't a common discussion topic :-)  It helps to be able to think of them as being somewhat similar to boroughs here in Virginia.  Nyttend (talk) 21:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Mary McConnel
I had started the bare bones of an article a while ago, and when I saw the new electorate was named after her I decided to finish it. I had "Mary MacLeod McConnel" in the lede, and when I looked at it the other day I did some checking as I thought I might have confused her with her daughter Mary MacLeod Banks (who had MacLeod in her name even though she was a generation away from her mother's family, which suggested it was something of a tradition?). I found the Find-A-Grave entry in Ipswich Cemetery, however I think that's just the way they display maiden names (in italics), and there's no photo of the McConnel memorial to see if that's how her name was displayed. Lastly, there were a couple of references in books to that name, as the grandmother of the anthropologist Ursula McConnel: The Makers And Making Of Indigenous Australian Museum Collections, First In Their Field, which is why I kept it like that. However, there's just as many references to "Mary McConnel (MacLeod)", such as the Cressbrook website, so happy to change it if you think that rationale is too sketchy! --Canley (talk) 00:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Leave it be for the moment. I might do some more research on her, as her death is also confusing. Although there are a number of newspaper articles saying she died in London, but her death registration is in Havant, Hampshire, which usually means 100% that it's where she died. I've had this "death in London but actually died elsewhere" problem before; it seems to relate to telegrams reporting a death arrived in Australia appearing to originate in London (but I am guessing it was forwarded via London) leading to "here" being misinterpreted. So a bit of digging might reveal more about her more generally. Kerry (talk) 01:12, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As I hoped, she died possessed of assets in Queensland so there is a probate file for her in the Queensland State Archives. That should contain a copy of her death certificate and her will. It will likely shed light on the name(s) she used. If there is any inconsistency between the details on the will (like name and address) and any other pertinent documents, the application for probate usually has to state/explain this. But I won't be likely to get out to the archives for a week or two (too many real world commitments this coming week). Kerry (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * McLeod vs MacLeod. Our ancestors just didn't worry about the spelling of names. The baptism register has them as McLeod. The marriage register has her as Mary McLeod, daughter of Alexander MacLeod, so the spelling of the surname varies within a single entry! Kerry (talk) 02:28, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

National noticeboard
It may never happen - my wild dream is that people other than the usual suspects might go to the national noticeboard and we have something like a national consensus over the direction of the city issue (ok some of the most erudite on the subject either no longer edit - or simply have absorbed into the silent mass of the talk page free) - but then as in most parts of the oz project the silence is resounding... JarrahTree 00:28, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * which brings on the dreaded nightmare - is anyone still watching anything in the oz project - the prospect of things slipping in which a bot cannot detect is something probably not best discussed on wiki, but.... JarrahTree 00:34, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Noted - your edit summary - feeling somewhat desperate about the maintenance load of Wikipedia - nah it has always been there many people dont notice or care - please dont fuss yourself about it - there is always more than anyone can cope with - but hey your productive work on queensland - what you have been able to do - is brilliant - but dont worry about it - neither the people or the bots will ever catch up ! JarrahTree 23:59, 6 November 2017 (UTC)


 * What he said. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 00:05, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've spent my working life "growing people". I am a great believer in succession planning. One day I will not be here any more, whether I fall under a bus, or just get too pissed off or just get bored. I need to believe my replacement(s) are ready, willing and able to take over. I don't see us growing enough people here at Wikipedia. This is one of the reasons I do edit training and other outreach, but it is a case of "kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince". Most people I train won't become active editors, let alone the "very active" editors that do the heavy lifting here. There are of course other positive benefits to external engagement, increasing understanding of digital literacy in relation to Wikipedia, people willing to fix an obvious mistake or vandalism, positive feelings towards Wikipedia and hence donations. We also do a lot to discourage existing editors, which are often unavoidable (e.g. BLP policy) but are avoidable but at a cost that we don't want to incur as individuals (read: it is often quicker easier to revert people than educate them and they may not want to be educated in any case). Anyhow, I'm off to eat and drink but not to wear my silly hat. Kerry (talk) 00:51, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Shannon Fentiman
Hey. Please in future write on an article page; not on mine. Thank you. Now, you objected to having Shannon Fentiman's academic grades removed? We normally don't include academic transcripts in Bios. Many people get distinctions at uni Kerry Raymond but it is just not notable and maybe seen as trying to big note the individual. That's not what Wikipedia is about. Please do a little bit more research and a little less criticism. Of course if you really feel strongly why not find some sources for the article too. That would help. And if you really think someone's academic grades are notable (which I certainly don't) please in future make a good case for it on the article's talk page. That's what people do here on Wikipedia. Please try not to take this advice as a criticism.Brownlife (talk) 22:52, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As I have already explained to you, as per WP:Notability, notability refers to article topics not to article content. I fail to see how listing her academic qualifications is "big noting" an individual and I have pointed you at a reliable source that could have been easily found by you to support the qualifications, based on what appeared to be your request for assistance on the Talk page. An academic qualification denotes a level of mastery of subject matter and the possession of a level of intelligence and tenacity. A 1st class Honours degree (the point of discussion) denotes a higher level of these things than a pass degree; she has an honours degree, replacing that with a pass degree isn't accurate. My record on research and citation is demonstrated in my contribution profile, just as your contribution profile reveals insights into your style of contribution. This is why I wrote on your User Talk page as there appeared to be a concerning pattern to your contributions larger than a specific point on a single article and, even though you have deleted those comments, I see I am not the only person who felt the need to raise issues with you about your style of contribution. Kerry (talk) 01:13, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh golly you just don't get it do you. In Bios we don't put a persons academic grades. If they got an honours degree just say they got an honours degree. We don't need to put a credit or distinction or first class or second class or pass now do we?? And i note that I am certainly not the first person who has tried to raise such concerns with you. Just be more careful in future and make sure your inclusions are notable. That's all i'm asking you to do.Brownlife (talk) 01:52, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

New Queensland Electorates
That's no problem. And Antony must have updated them. I made the pages on the day they were announced so the margins are probably wrong if Antony's updated the estimates. Kirsdarke01 (talk) 01:36, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Speaking of the new electorates, I had a go at updating Electoral districts of Queensland, if you can spare a few minutes can you have a quick look and see if any stand out as being in the wrong regions? No worries if you're too busy, I should be able to do it myself in a day or two. --Canley (talk) 04:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look. I could see you busy working from my watchlist! I had made a start on updating the old ones to be "past tense" but then I thought that adding maps for the new ones might be more of a priority for the reader and moved onto doing that instead, intending to come back to the "past tense" ones. I hope to get a lot of the 2017 electorate maps for the existing electorates added at QWiki Club next week, as we will make that the theme for the month and allow me to teach uploading images and adding them to articles with that group. They tend to like to practice a new skill so there will be lots of scope with 80 or so maps to add. I will do all the new electorates before then as I am putting their maps in the infobox in the meantime. Since the existing electorates have a 2008 map in their infobox, what do you think is better? Put the 2017 map in the infobox or leave the 2008 there and put the 2017 underneath or vice versa or drop th the 2008 entirely (I don't like removing thing like that because they preserve history). Kerry (talk) 04:57, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't even notice the ECQ maps were CC licenced! I was just about to spend a few days generating new maps! Yes, I agree, keep the old maps and move them into the History section if there is one, or a gallery section if there are a few. I think this has been done for some Victorian districts. --Canley (talk) 05:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I re-arranged your Electoral districts of Queensland groupings a little. I don't think there is any perfect set of groupings. For purpose of management, various Qld Govt Depts divide the state up into "regions" but it doesn't mean that they are the same set regions as for some it is physical distance that matters, for others it is population. To understand the relationships of places outside of SE Qld, you have to think of the historic east-west railway lines and the highways that generally run roughly parallel to them. The Great Northern line links Townsville through to Mt Isa so they are a group. Ditto the Central line (Rockhampton to Longreach) and the Western line Brisbane to Cunamulla. It's why I shifted the big western electorates (Traeger, Gregory and Warrego) as I did. I squeezed Gympie and Nanango into the Sunshine Coast section. Normally you find Gympie-Maryborough-Bundaberg grouped as "Wide Bay-Burnett" but as Maryborough and Bundaberg were in Central, it was too big a stretch to put Gympie and Nanango into Central and they are adjacent to the more generally Sunny Coast electorates. If I was stating the list from scratch instead of having an existing article, I would probably have just organised it under the same headings as the 2017 Final Determination (which isn't necessarily a good way to group them, just a highly defensible one). I've written a lot of reports in my time and copying other people's headings is usually a winner for structuring them (again, not necessarily good, but always defensible). :-) Kerry (talk) 06:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, I was getting so frustrated trying to work it out I was just going to do a straight alphabetical list! Today I have updated all the electoral enrolment figures at close of rolls and updated the district areas as well (I got the areas from the metadata in the GIS files), and imported them into Wikidata. I checked where the area change was very large—the main difference is the official boundaries now extending out into the Pacific to incorporate various island groups. It's possible to do a intersection query of the electorate boundary and the landform to get a land-only area, but I figured the boundary is the boundary and it's also a lot easier and more easily verifiable. What do you think? --Canley (talk) 06:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * And thank you for that, because that was going to be my next task. I had the same issue with areas of the localities that stretch into the ocean for doing infoboxes. Like you, I went with "the boundary is the boundary" as it is verifiable and defensible (and because I don't have any code yet for intersecting polygons so it was also expedient). Just FYI, what tool are you using? I am rolling my own Python code using formulae, but am convinced there must be a library that I haven't stumbled on yet to do it for me :-) I don't really want to deal with inner polygons and concave polygons (although Qld has loads of concave shapes and at least one doughnut locality, Mount Isa). Kerry (talk) 07:45, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Or enclaves like Bundaberg/Burnett! I'll write all the technical details up when I document the procedure as mentioned above, but while I was originally using a PostgreSQL database with scripts in Perl or Python, I currently just use the open-source QGIS program, which can do the geographic querying itself (like district/locality overlap) or polygon area, then I extract the results into Excel, Wikidata or a MySQL database. Depending on the complexity of what I want to do, I might use Excel formulas, a MySQL query, or a PHP script (to do outputs in Wiki markup). --Canley (talk) 23:18, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Humphery, Queensland
I nearly made a right mess of this but the nett result was 2 typos corrected, I hope. Have solved the history of the name now. Humphrey railway station was named by the Railways after the lessee of Mount Debateable nearby whose name was actually William Humphery. The Receiving Office (doubtless at the station) opened in 1914 as Humphrey and was upgraded to a PO in 1924 with the same name. By 1929 PO lists used Humphery and the datestamp probably reflected the change though not seen as such until 1936 at last report. Local agitation for the correct name obviously, and refutes an argument in philatelic circles that the 1929 change was a PO error rather than a name change. A useful resource found you may not know - in 1914 The Queenslander published five articles of the derivation of the names given by the Railways to their stations (Railway nomenclature search in Trove will give them). Do we think this is worth a list?. Split the stations given new names from those taken from existing (townships, creeks etc) and a bit of sensible copyedit (no copyright problem now); and then add same info to localities with articles, many of whom do not have any etymology. Give me something to do for a while. Epistemos (talk) 09:23, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed the sequence of events on my watchlist :-) It was all my fault. I had managed to get the unusual spelling of the place name right in the article title but it seems my fingers reverted back to the more common spelling within the article itself. When it comes to place names, there are three sources I consult:


 * Qld Place Names database
 * A Trove list I compiled from a series of 300+ articles on place names
 * A Trove ist I compiled on those 1914 railway nomenclatures you mention

I am not sure if a list is useful but adding the origin of names to the articles is definitely worthwhile. Kerry (talk) 21:52, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The Signpost: 24 November 2017
 * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:39, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

tl;dr
In WP:AGF you should take your self identification and shorten your messages as a new year resolve : )    JarrahTree 04:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The taxpayers of this fine land have invested a considerable amount of money in training me to speak in 50 minute blocks and write any thought in 10 pages. They are getting a good return on their investment :-) Kerry (talk) 04:54, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Your good sense of humour and amazing productivity for the queensland project far outweigh the volume, and verbiage... :) JarrahTree 04:56, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Mount Ommaney Page
Hi Kerry - thanks for the message and encouragement about the Mount Ommaney page - kind regards --PinkAechFas (talk) 05:37, 27 November 2017 (UTC) Hi Kerry - thanks for the messages about the other pages as well - kind regards --PinkAechFas (talk) 06:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

A Very Mayor-y Christmas
Hi there, Is this GLAM/State_Library_of_Queensland/QWiki_Club a good idea? As stated in WP:POLOUTCOMES: "Municipal politicians are not inherently notable just for being in politics, but neither are they inherently non-notable just because they are in local politics. Each case is evaluated on its own individual merits. Mayors of cities of at least regional prominence have usually survived AFD, although the article should say more than just 'Jane Doe is the mayor of Cityville'. Mayors of smaller towns, however, are generally deemed not notable just for being mayors, although they may be notable for other reasons in addition to their mayoralty (e.g. having previously held a more notable office)." Edit-a-thons that don't target automatically notable people often fall in a heap when people not only have to provide a BLPProd satisfying ref, but GNG satisfying refs. See the many academics based edit-a-thons that end up being AFD-a-thons a week later. Good luck, but please focus on the need to prove "more than just being a mayor". The-Pope (talk) 04:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)t's
 * I am well aware of WP:POLOUTCOMES but it relates to notability which is not an issue here. Notability applies to article topics not article content. There are mayors' names all over the place in Wikipedia, e.g. City of Fremantle, Town of Cottesloe. Kerry (talk) 05:32, 3 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I misread it as creating articles, not creating lists. I'm all for lists! Good luck, hope it goes well. The-Pope (talk) 16:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Michael Scott Flercher
Thanks Kerry for the references you added to MSF. I've often wondered why he didn't have an ADB entry given his work history and your addition was just the information needed. Castlemate (talk) 20:45, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Pauls milk
Hi Kerry

Season's Greetings and all the best to you and yours.

Following a discovery by my younger son of an old Pauls (Darwin) quart milk bottle in a Darwin tidal flat, I have been trying to find out more about this "Darwin Stubby" but to Noah Vale. Long before your time of course, but were such behemoths delivered in Brisbane?

Oh, and ta for the "Thanks" message(s). Brightens up the day.

Doug butler (talk) 21:31, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I have no personal memories of any quart bottles but I will ask an older person I know (who worked for Pauls) who might know more. Kerry (talk) 21:43, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and could you also ask about Pauls milk documentation, photos etc? I've done my little best, but the WP article has a long way to go. Doug butler (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * My personal contact has no memory of quart bottles here in Queensland, and has no documentation. I also connected Paul's directly, and they said that they lost a lot of their history in the 2011 flood (that area was flooded very badly). They were also badly flooded in 1974. There are some photos on Trove, a lot of them are out of copyright including some of the ones from the State Archives are released free of copyright even though they are after 1955 (which is a bonus). And of course as you know, there are many digitised newspaper articles about Paul, but it seems there is no neatly packaged overall history. Kerry (talk) 07:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Kerry, Cheers, Doug butler (talk) 15:18, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit war warning
Your recent editing history at 144 Edward Street, Brisbane‎ shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you don't violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Jytdog (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I suggest you look more closely. After my intial revert, I did move to Talk on both the article and the Template in question. It was User:SamHolt6 who reverted my revert. My subsequent edit removed the new template and replaced it with a long-existing template for the same purpose (to notify of possible quality issues with the article due to paid editing). I am not edit-warring, I am trying to discuss the use of a very new template. Kerry (talk) 01:26, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Note also that I reverted my revert of Kerry's removal of the DPE tag given her concerns about the tag. Definitely not an edit war. SamHolt6 (talk) 01:29, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it was a misunderstanding due to timing of events (I was writing on two Talk pages and due to my disability took a break in the process of doing so. I thank SamHolt6 for reverting his revert. So let's move to a more productive conversation about this. Kerry (talk) 01:33, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Brisbane meetup - Sunday 10 December 2017 at The Edge, State Library of Queensland
If you are in or near Brisbane, please join us on Sunday 10 December 2017 any time from noon to 4pm at The Edge at the State Library of Queensland. For more details and to sign up, please go to the meetup page. See you there! Kerry (talk) 22:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Kerry, Unfortunately I am unable to attend. Had I been coming I would have told the following story, which you may care to pass on, or not.

I recently experienced a first (for me). I was thanked for undoing an edit by the reverted editor - two months later.

Late in November I received the following message: "1f2 thanked you for your edit on Gumlu, Queensland." After racking my sometimes defective memory I had to resort to the electronic record to fill in the gaps.

About 2 months prior, while doing some random stuff relating to Bruce Highway towns (while you did the hard stuff of killing redlinks) I chanced upon this addition to Gumlu: "The women are very beautiful in Gumlu, so the men often die at an early age." As my vast knowledge of small towns led me to believe this was most unlikely to be true I hit the "undo" link and moved on. After receiving the thanks I had a look at the user's contributions and found a most unlikely vandal. I would love to know what prompted the edit in question, but would not dream of asking the editor directly. And so my story ends. Downsize43 (talk) 04:16, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello Kerry

I just saw your invite to the Brisbane meetup for... yesterday! *sadface* Apologies I therefore cannot make it but would like to have attended. Is there some account of what happened at the meetup?

Best regards, David DNSLOC (talk) 13:53, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Brisbane River page - tabular listings of reach/creek names
I am new to this aspect of WP, so not sure if this is way to go but .. Thank you for taking the list of reaches and creeks even further upstream from my addtions from Mermaid Reach/Moggill Creekup to Wolston Creek. Good work! Just to note that Woogaroo and Six Mile Creeks also need to be slipped in. Woogaroo Ck between Cockatoo and Goodna Reaches; Six Mile Creek between Redbank and Moggill Reaches. Cheers. Edmundparker (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
 * . If you mean you are new at "talking" with other users, then congratulations you did it just fine! Thank you for adding the reaches as it made me realise that the map I used must not have had all the reaches named, so I went and look in the Queensland Place names gazetteer to find all of them, so I think we should have all of them now in the article. I have now also added the two extra creeks you mentioned above. I have to say that it takes a brave person to tackle changes to a table when you are relatively new to Wikipedia. Kerry (talk) 23:00, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Going back to about 2012-2013, QPN gazetteer listed Brisbane River reaches only upstream up to and including Mermaid Reach. Around that time, as I was engaging with DNRM about creek naming (eg. Ric Nattrass Creek) and having a Brisbane River hardcopy navigation map with named reaches upstream of Mermaid Reach, I made a submission for the Place Names gazettal of the additional reaches from Mt O Reach through to Goggs Reach, as per the map. Turns out that DNRM could do that by administrative action, without the normal submission, evaluation and consultation process. Apparently there is a statute that allows automatic gazettal of placenames if they've been published on maps prior to a particular date circa 1980.

Anyway, that's a long-winded way of saying I've had knowledge of, and involvement with, these geographical features in my local patch. That goes back for nearly three decades, with environmental activism for saving riverfront bushland in the Centenary Suburbs (www.sorb.org.au), through to bushcare and community catchment management (wacc.org.au) these days. Re Wikipedia, I still need to learn how to start a new page to start documenting some of that community group history. That's an idea for a future project and learning needed to start.

Re tackling the table editing, for a newby, well I do have some knowledge of HTML dating back to my first websites in 1996. So that knowledge allowed me to analyse the existing source code, and then to add my new rows to the table by copy, paste and editing by hard-coding. However, while still unclear how some of the tagging works (eg. QPN is code for a Qld Place Names citation), I just went with the flow and the convention ... and got it to work!

Thank you for your collaboration. Ed  Edmundparker (talk) 10:55, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Kerry_Raymond - hmmm, Kerry, should I have prefixed my previous 'talk' reply with your user ID? I refer to my three para's 'Going back to about 2010 ... got it to work!' Edmundparker (talk) 11:01, 12 December 2017 (UTC)