User talk:Kevin McE/Archives/2023

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You've been reported at ANI
Welcome to the discussion. Summer talk 07:45, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

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What makes a city?
A discussion has begun on developing a guideline for this topic. You may wish to contribute at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements to balance the debate. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

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End foot notes
Hallo, When adding an efn to Lancaster, Lancashire etc, remember to make them visible by adding an appropriate variation of Reflist etc. See the message at bottom of the page:  " Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or  templates on this page, but the references will not show without a  template or  template (see the help page). "    Thanks. Pam D  18:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi, I noticed the footnotes too. I don't think what you wrote in connection with Leeds, Sheffield and Wakefield is correct, my reasoning is this,
 * "City status is distinct from the periodic reforms to local government structures in legislation such as the Municipal Corporations Act 1835, the local government acts of the late 1880s and early 1890s, and the local government acts of 1972 (England and Wales) and 1973 (Scotland). Some provisions in those acts led to the reform of city corporations and councils. But for the most part they did not affect city status."

Esemgee (talk) 23:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The logical consequence of that would be either that City of Leeds (or City of Sheffield or City of Wakefield) is not a city, or that there are two cities there (a more restricted urban area and the wider LA area with the hinterland, although this duplication is never included in listing or enumerating cities). My reading of "for the most part they did not affect city status" is that city status was not removed in this restructuring (such as it was for Rochester later), but that status must be held by an entity, and the only entity that can do so is the LA. Kevin McE (talk) 23:19, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I think you are inferring far more into this than is necessary. Some of the metropolitan boroughs/districts were named after the major settlements, some were not, eg Kirklees, Calderdale. The cities remained cities, they are in a list of cities/major towns maintained by ONS, they had charters and did not lose them and named the district after the city. I think Wakefield originally called the council a metropolitan district council but changed its title. Should the system change, the major settlements would still be cities. I don't know about the charters awarded more recent cities such as Doncaster but I think the pre-1974 cities remain as cities. Can you provide a reference for your footnote? Esemgee (talk) 07:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In that case why do the articles City of Leeds, City of Sheffield and City of Wakefield all declare those areas (ie, areas wider than the original city) all declare that those entities are themselves cities? Kevin McE (talk) 07:04, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Esemgee (talk) 07:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually the government still has Wakefield Metropolitan District Council so the article is wrong. Esemgee (talk) 07:55, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

A little help
Hi Kev, I hope you are well, I hope you don’t mind me messaging you but I feel like I could do with some professional help from someone who is interested in this subject. I see your discussion and I’ve been in a similar situation as I have been trying to change the Brighton page. I wonder if maybe you can help or get your view on the Brighton page? I feel the Brighton page needs changing in descriptions from seaside resort to city. I also feel the main description needs changing from - Btn is a seaside resort and one of the two main areas of the city. To this version -Btn officially known as the city of B&h with this citation as proof https://www.kingseducation.com/kings-life/10-fun-facts-about-brighton#:~:text=An%20important%20first%20fact%20is,two%20to%20be%20separate%20towns. There is also this link as proof also that I’d add https://www.visitbrighton.com/. Thanks for your time. 78.86.165.184 (talk) 18:29, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "One of the two main areas in the city" sounds accurate and apposite to me. There is no value in an argument based on false statements such as "Brighton is actually formally known as the city of Brighton and Hove": Brighton is part of the city of Brighton and Hove, and promotional literature is very rarely a good reference. Kevin McE (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * i understand what you are saying. The descriptions are incorrect though, it should state city not seaside resort. 78.86.32.41 (talk) 15:44, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not believe that they are, and you simply saying that they are without presenting any evidence is unlikely to persuade me. Kevin McE (talk) 18:10, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have emails back from the mayor of Brighton and Brighton comms department.                       I have sent your email to our Comms department who will be able to help. Thank you for getting it right. Wikipedia often gets it wrong so it's good if someone who cares edits the pages.
 * Kindest regards
 * Minna
 * Minna Robertson Civic Office Manager | Brighton & Hove City Council, Brighton Town Hall, Civic Parlour, Bartholomew Square, BN1 1JA
 * T 01273 291225 or 07824866987 | brighton-hove.gov.uk
 * Our customer promise to you
 * We will make it clear how you can contact or access our services |  We will understand and get things done |  We will be clear and treat you with respect
 * -Original Message-
 * From:
 * Sent: 06 May 2023 18:18
 * To: MayorsOffice <MayorsOffice@brighton-hove.gov.uk>
 * Subject:
 * This email originates from outside of Brighton & Hove City Council. Please think carefully before opening attachments or clicking on links. 193.117.198.82 (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2023 (UTC) 78.86.32.41 (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I can’t send the other email, it’s not letting me saying it vandalism? I have 2 emails from the mayor’s office and Brighton comms department saying I am right. If you still feel this isn’t enough then I’ll leave it. 78.86.32.41 (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * -Original Message-
 * From:
 * Sent: 06 May 2023 18:18
 * To: MayorsOffice <MayorsOffice@brighton-hove.gov.uk>
 * Subject:
 * This email originates from outside of Brighton & Hove City Council. Please think carefully before opening attachments or clicking on links. 193.117.198.82 (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2023 (UTC) 78.86.32.41 (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I can’t send the other email, it’s not letting me saying it vandalism? I have 2 emails from the mayor’s office and Brighton comms department saying I am right. If you still feel this isn’t enough then I’ll leave it. 78.86.32.41 (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * To: MayorsOffice <MayorsOffice@brighton-hove.gov.uk>
 * Subject:
 * This email originates from outside of Brighton & Hove City Council. Please think carefully before opening attachments or clicking on links. 193.117.198.82 (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2023 (UTC) 78.86.32.41 (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I can’t send the other email, it’s not letting me saying it vandalism? I have 2 emails from the mayor’s office and Brighton comms department saying I am right. If you still feel this isn’t enough then I’ll leave it. 78.86.32.41 (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I can’t send the other email, it’s not letting me saying it vandalism? I have 2 emails from the mayor’s office and Brighton comms department saying I am right. If you still feel this isn’t enough then I’ll leave it. 78.86.32.41 (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 September 2023
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CS1 error on Elephant in the room
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Brighton comms department reply
Thank you for your email, I share not only your concerns but also your frustrations! This has been an ongoing issue for many years, we used to regularly go in and edit the page but every time we did someone else would then edit it back to say resort or town. Although thankfully the Wikipedia page retains both of the external links I added to the council website and to our official tourism site: www.visitbrighton.com (http://www.visitbrighton.com/). As our resources are stretched instead of undertaking the Sisyphean task of updating Wikipedia, we focus on optimising the content of our website to ensure that we appear as the top result for Brighton-related searches. Please see below a screenshot of the search results for ‘Brighton’ on Google which shows that our VisitBrighton website appears before the Wikipedia entry - the majority of people use Google for online searches rather than Bing (84% Google / 9% Bing). Thank you, Charlotte

<image002.png>

Charlotte Barrow Senior Marketing Executive VisitBrighton www.visitbrighton.com (http://www.visitbrighton.com/) Monday – Friday 8am-4pm

<image001.jpg> (https://www.visitbrighton.com/brightonup) 78.86.136.61 (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Here is the other email. 78.86.136.61 (talk) 15:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.kingseducation.com/kings-life/10-fun-facts-about-brighton#:~:text=An%20important%20first%20fact%20is,two%20to%20be%20separate%20towns                    https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/23804654.brighton-named-inspiring-city-south-england/                https://jollyexplorer.com/why-is-brighton-a-city-how-is-brighton-a-city/?utm_content=cmp-true          https://www.visitbrighton.com/      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JNsUDPkvIpo   https://www.visitbritain.com/gb/en/business/england/brighton. https://www.sussex.ac.uk/study/student-life/brighton  https://flybrighton.com/   https://www.visitengland.com/things-to-do/brighton 78.86.136.61 (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely all this can back me up Kevin? 78.86.136.61 (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've no idea why you think that, having argued at length that it is erroneous to describe the main settlement of the Borough of Colchester as a city in and of itself, I am likely to agree with you. But let's play along:-
 * In your first link "The towns of Brighton and Hove formed a unitary authority in 1997 and were granted city status by Queen Elizabeth II in 2001." Note "were", plural, not applying uniquely and specifically to Brighton.
 * Second one: who are Aura print, the people behind that survey?  How are they qualified to be an authority on the legal status of places?  Is it clear that they specifically mean Brighton rather than CoB&H?
 * 3rd:" It was this united authority of Brighton & Hove (often referred to as “Brighton”) that would go on to be a city." So not Brighton as represented by the article that you want to change.
 * 4th: See that map? That big area marked in pink is the whole city area, not just the Brighton area.
 * 5th: Promotional material is not a NPoV source, if Falmer and Moulsecombe are included, than why should we think it is specific to the central Brighton area?
 * 6th: Third paragraph, "Brighton and Hove are also renowned for quirky shopping areas, diverse cultural, music and arts scene"
 * 7th: promotional, nothing to indicate specific to Brighton.
 * 8th: This is in Shoreham!!!!!!
 * 9th: "Top places to visit in Brighton include the Royal Pavilion, Brighton Pier, The Lanes, and the picturesque Devil’s Dyke." So if Devil's Dyke is described as being in the city (which is accurate), what grounds do you have for saying that this proves that centrall Brighton is a city in and of itself?
 * I'd drop it if I were you. Kevin McE (talk) 19:17, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * tbh Kev I’ll leave it, I thought you might be able to help but I can see im annoying you so im sorry if I bothered you. Have a good day. 78.86.136.61 (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh but I will say that all road signs signaling towards central Brighton state “city centre” 78.86.136.61 (talk) 21:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And they are at liberty to call it whatever they want: it may be the commercial/cultural centre of the city (no-one would doubt that it is) but that doesn't make it a city in and of itself. Kevin McE (talk) 12:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you think we could agree Brighton, city of Brighton and Hove would be better in the short description? The reason why I was hoping for change was because Brighton has been removed on maps online because of the description on here, Brighton/ Brighton and Hove is a large city so it’s not getting the recognition it deserves. 78.86.136.61 (talk) 16:08, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That doesn't describe Brighton, it merely gives a location for it, and therefore it is wholly unsuitable to serve as a description.
 * What online maps has Brighton been removed from, and what evidence do you have that the description in Wikipedia is the cause of that? Kevin McE (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This does describe Brighton though it’s the official naming of the city! It’s what the road signs say when entering. I emailed the mayor of Brighton and asked if Brighton is considered the same as Brighton and Hove when referring to the city and she said I was right as did the Brighton communications department, it’s the same when referring to Brighton and Hove Albion fc as simply Brighton. I have nothing wrong with the description of Brighton on the main page “Brighton is part of the city of Brighton and hove, that’s fine! I just feel the short description should change to city of Brighton and Hove to put us back on the map, literally! Google maps goes by Wikipedia as it’s the most popular search, when the description changed Brighton pretty much disappeared, you have to zoom right in to find it. Maybe if we can’t agree we should just leave it as we’re just going to go round in circles? I do appreciate your time though. Thank you. 78.86.136.61 (talk) 19:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * A name is not description.  Your name identifies you, it does not explain what you are: the purpose of the short description is to say what something is.  But the article you are referring to is not about the city of Brighton and Hove: it is about the much more restricted area, Brighton.  Which is not, in and of itself, a city: you and the mayor seem willing to use it as a one word abbreviation for CoB&H, just as soccer supporters use it as an abbreviation if B&HA; perfeectly understandable to do so, but that simply shows that anything that refers to Brighton as a city cannot be taken as referring exclusively to the settlement within the city that has the name Brighton.
 * If you have a problem with what Google Maps does, take it up with Google. Don't try to make Wikipedia do what it should not because you have an unverifiable suspicion that it might have an affect elsewhere. Kevin McE (talk) 19:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * By suggesting Brighton is a settlement within the city isn’t correct though. Brighton/ Brighton and Hove aren’t two different places. Addresses around here don’t come under Brighton,Brighton and Hove it’s one or the other, as the description says Brighton is part of the city of Brighton and Hove would suggest that Brighton city of Brighton and Hove would be correct. 78.86.136.61 (talk) 21:21, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolute nonsense. Please don't continue to post such nonsense on my page.  I have advised you to drop it, you said you would, and you have continued to post patent error. Kevin McE (talk) 23:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

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