User talk:Kid75617

Jeffrey Carney
I have reverted your recent edit at Jeffrey Carney. Your edit is pushing a point of view not borne out by facts. If you are indeed Carney (a claim for which we have no proof), you are prohibited by editing an article about yourself per Wikipedia guidance on conflict of interest. Chris Troutman ( talk ) 02:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In 1997 the government of the Federal Republic of Germany issued a demarche to the US state department protesting the violation of German sovereignty via the unilateral 'apprehension' of Carney without permission of the FRG. The apprehension was covert, the agents were armed, and the FRG was neither informed of the actions of armed foreign agents on its territories (as required under the SOFA, Status of Forces Agreement). The extradition of any individual under German law is prohibited if the individual is or could be facing a capital charge resulting in the death penalty. espionage is a capital charge, and if or until a judge decides that the case will not not be charges as a capital offense, the death penalty is a viable option. This, therefore, procludes unilateral extradition by agents not authorized to carry out this arrest. These issues are discussed in citations already listed in the article. To deny the assertions of a foreign government could also be considered pushing a POV not borne out by facts. Consider the fact that the 1991 arrest of Carney was only revealed - accidentally, and in Germany - in 1997. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kid75617 (talk • contribs)
 * Wrong again. The sources cited do not indicate that the arrest by AFOSI violated the SOFA.  Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be the first time the CIA or the US military spirited people out of Germany without the German government's knowledge. (Please read Kidnap City by Arthur Smith and Battleground Berlin by David Murphy).  I follow your logic and the points you make seem reasonable.  We could include that paragraph to make the case if you had the citations from German law.  Regardless, Wikipedia guidelines (WP:BLP and WP:CITE for example) are clear that we have to cite everything in the article.  We can't just write what we think is right and let it go.  Any encyclopedia has to be based on real scholarship.  Unless you yourself are Carney, I welcome your edits on this article assuming you can write within the established guidelines.  If you insist on being disruptive, we can take this issue to administrators.  Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 03:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts to keep the pages of Wiki respectable. Your tone ("Wrong again"), however, is a bit inappropriate, and a 'disruptive' person does not engage in a civil conversation with others on the talk page. Disruptive is when current and former government employees comb through articles such as this one and regularly redact to protect their reputations. If you want to cite the SOFA, that can be done. It is a huge document. And it is not, however, relevant whether the US regarded their actions as appropriate or legal, since the actions took place in Germany, a sovereign re-united Germany. It would be similar to defending the so-called 'Freemen's position that they can arrest and try officers of the courts simply because they say so, or because they interpret things the way they would like them to read. Ans simply because something is done numerous times does not make it right or legal.

As far including the cite from German law, you are creating a significant hurdle which borders on partisanship. None of the other assertions cited in this particular article have more than a second-hand reference via an article published in Germany. The articles referenced all refer to the arrest as an illegal act.

And for the record, the SOFA requires a unit commander to coordinate the arrests of any US citizens on the German economy with local authorities. Search warrants for residences not on active US-military bases cannot be executed without permission of the local legal authorities. All of this, as well, is documented in the Record of Trial, which is public record and obtainable by the FOIA.

If I can help with providing citations, please let me know how you would like to receive these. The following quote is from Juergen Dahlkamps "No Country more Beautiful.", already cited in the article. I quote the original, but the English translation is equivalent. Here it states: "It is the story of a victimkidnapped by a seizure team of the Air Force OSI on 22 April, 1981, on a public street and forcibly returned to the US to face trial." The Germans even use the term from the English language. (Gekidnappt, past participle.)

Es ist die Geschichte eines Täters, der gar nicht leugnet, dass er ein Verbrechen begangen hat, als er mehr als hundert hoch sensible US-Militärpapiere zur Stasi durchsteckte. Es ist aber auch die Geschichte eines Opfers, das von einem Greiftrupp des Air-Force-Geheimdienstes OSI am 22. April 1991 in Berlin auf offener Straße gekidnappt und verschleppt wurde, zum Prozess in die USA.

I would ask that you consider that citation as sufficient. The addition of information stating that the US does not view their actions this way, for instance, would also be a fact. As a wise friend once said: "You are entitled to your own views; You just aren't entitled to your own facts." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kid75617 (talk • contribs)
 * OK, my tone was inappropriate. I apologize.
 * Rather than take a one-or-the-other approach, I would recommend drafting a paragraph discussing the controversy of the US actions in this regard. We can maintain neutral point of view by addressing both points.  I can understand why you latch onto the Spiegel piece since it's sympathetic to Carney.  I for one don't like Spiegel as a reference because it's not a reliable periodical despite the fact that it has broad readership, but you could use it for the "illegal kidnapping" point of view.  It comes as no surprise to me that a German outlet supports the claims that Germany's sovereignty has been overlooked.  As I said before, I'm not ignoring that point as kidnappings have been a regular practice since 1945.  I'd like to see more academic or government sources, so yes, let's cite the SOFA and German law.  Getting the record of the trial would be awesome.


 * Also, in the future please sign your comments IAW WP:SIGN. I would also recommend moving this discussion to the article talk page, rather than your user talk page in order to increase visibility.  Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 20:42, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your candor on the subject. There is, in fact, a fairly large amount of information regarding the arrest and its surrounding activities. For instance, the participation of Vernon Walters as a direct decision maker in the apprehension is documented in Carney's redacted record of trial. (This information would be an appropriate cite in the article, for instance.) There are several other telling admission by the investigating agents in the publicly accessible document as well. The German media (SPIEGEL, FOCUS, etc) of course represent a German perspective. Interestingly enough, FOCUS, a thoroughly anti-East German news source published articles on the arrest, extradition and subsequent German government protest in short succession in 1997. Oddly enough, one of it most controversial employee-reporters was involved in handing over information that led to Carney's apprehension. It is, to say the least, a very bizarre case.