User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz/Archive 22

WP Economics in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Economics for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 07:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Economics is one of the worst places to edit. The heterodox (Austrian, Marxist) and history of political economy (Marxist) enthusiasts push their junk onto pages, and we lack consensus to maintain due weight and reduce the damage due to fringe economics. My involvement has been limited to mathematical economics and history of macroeconomic thought, and a few articles on game theory and convexity.  Kiefer .Wolfowitz 15:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Constantinos A. Patrides
Hello, Kiefer. I apologize for tampering with your note to Ealdgyth on her talk page. Hope you don't mind too much. I just wrote a little article on CAP and your anecdote would be a wonderful addition to it. What do you think? --  Kenatipo   speak! 15:25, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Kenatipo!
 * Thank you for correcting my spelling. It reminds me of C.A.P. correcting my mis-spelling of "varorium" as "valorium". :D
 * I think that C.A.P. deserves his article, and I shall immediately read your biography.
 * My anecdote did not do justice to the true rhetoric of C.A.P. or to his elegance, either the first day (when I confess wondering whether I should walk out of the lecture hall) or the second day, when his smile and sense of sharing a prank immediately broke the formal barriers to learning (while maintaining a formal tone, where the men were addressed as "Mister"). I can say that his intelligence and kindness and his love for the O.E.D. were inspirational, and many of us were touched by his personal interest and encouragement. In my imagination, when he first appeared in the classroom, he seemed to be performing the role of Herr Lodovico Settembrini, the spirit of humanistic intelligence and love-of-life in The Magic Mountain; and I have never heard a person speak with such elegance since.
 * I believe that the 1987 or 1988 Michigan Daily carried an obituary, which noted that as a Greek-American boy trapped with his visiting parents in WWII, C.A.P. carried messages for the resistance. I think that his introduction to Premises and Motifs in Renaissance Literature noted that Pravda or Izvestia had denounced one of his articles, and he commented with the Russian saying, "Pravda" is not Izvestia, and Izvestia is not Pravda".
 * C.A.P. was the first person I knew who died of AIDS, but not the last, alas. I had only had a few sentences of discussion with Tom Kahn, whose biography may interest you.
 * The memory of C.A.P. is one reason that I have not apologized for zealotry against misuse of sources or zealotry against charges of totalitarianism in my RfC. On a happier note, I thought of C.A.P.'s notes that Paradise Lost's Christ rules by virtue (rather than by royal-birth) and that He has a dim view of the demos   when I addressed Malleus (on  SandyGeorgia's talk page) on his and her roles as leading writers on WP; on a silly note, I thought of C.A.P.'s explication of farting in Areopagitica when addressing a gag-order proposed in my RfC.
 * Sincerely and with best regards,
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Outstanding work on the article, Kiefer! The man sounds like quite a teacher; it's a shame he died too soon.  I felt stifled by a lack of sources -- I expected to find an obit in the New York Times, but found not a word.  Some day you'll have to tell me how to find information in journal articles (more easily and for free).  I haven't followed your saga closely enough understand what you're telling me about your RfC; sorry!  Thanks for improving the article.  I'll have some questions for you tomorrow, but first let me read your sources.  Until then...  --  Kenatipo    speak! 02:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Kenatipo!
 * Thanks for your nice words. I confess that I cannot access the Milton Quarterly at my University, but I remember reading the obituaries in the printed journal. Apparently, the Michigan Daily's archives are down; I remember the 1986 (corrected) article that quoted Dean Peter C. Steiner and others, and mentioned his childhood heroism, I believe. The publisher (now Wiley) has multiple errors in that issue, and indeed it fails to list one of the three authors of memorials; the correct details of the third are listed in the Summers & Pembith introduction, which quotes Frye and others on him. His friends find a diplomatic way of suggesting that his prose was over-wrought, unlike his lectures, which were amazing displays of erudition, virtuous eloquence, and good fun.
 * I may have been wrong about "The Salvation of Satan". The Pravda-ain't discussion may have been about an article about the hierarchies of angels, but I'm unsure.
 * I was unsure also about mentioning his death from AIDS, because his personal life was absolutely private. My room-mate, who was nearly an English major and studied with Bornstein, was amazed by how C.A.P. would disappear for a weekend and appear with his tan a darker shane of bronze!
 * Honestly, C.A.P.'s personality and interesting life and Milton sustained my interest, and my long-term memory and access-rate are some of my strengths. (I would be willing to give up some long-term memory to have the working memory of a concert pianist or a "real" mathematician, but that's life ....)
 * I would have liked to have worked more on this article, but a (perhaps misguided) concern with "protecting my good name" (per #9) has otherwise encumbered me. The RfC has been compared to a "tar baby" by a wise Wikipedian, who advised me to edit where I'm appreciated. There is too much scandal and especially sexual content to interest anybody. ;)
 * Best regards,
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 02:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "He died of AIDS after having been nursed by his mother" could be misunderstood to say that his mother gave him AIDS. It still is ambiguous and needs to be re-written.  (Talk to you again tomorrow; it's late).  --  Kenatipo    speak! 05:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course! I shall correct it. I see that Summers has his own article. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 05:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

C.A. Patrides
Hello Kiefer. I've started a review of the above. Template:Did you know nominations/C. A. Patrides. Best, The Interior  (Talk) 00:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear The Interior!
 * Thank you very much! (After having solicited reviews on 10 or so project pages, I was despairing of a review for my teacher's article.) I am very happy that you are doing the review.


 * Demiurge1000 has been helpful with catching a number of mistakes, and I am glad that he has not yet flagged the quotations in the headings as MOS violations. There is a tradition in English literature of using such quotations, which I hope may be allowed.


 * Today, Tom Kahn became a good article. Soon, C. A. Patrides may get a DYK.
 * Today, we remember two brilliant men of remarkable courage, insight, and style (who also happened to die, tragically, of AIDS).


 * Sincerely, Kiefer .Wolfowitz 00:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy to do it. Sorry to come out in opposition to the quotes, but I thought they were a bit too literary for this "working-man's" encyclopedia. Patrides was a professor of yours?  The Interior  (Talk) 02:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi The Interior!
 * Thanks for your help. Warranted criticism is good criticism, no matter the source. ;)
 * The working class gave us Tom Kahn and Walter Reuther and perhaps C.A.P., and the working class needs a good encyclopedia.
 * "Boys, nothing's too good for the working class" (Big Bill Haywood)
 * "I sit with Shakespeare and he winces not. Across the color-line I move arm in arm with Balzac and Dumas, where smiling men and welcoming women glide in gilded halls. From out the caves of the evening that swing between the strong-limbed earth and the tracery of the stars, I summon Aristotle and Aurelius and what soul I will, and they come all graciously with no scorn nor condescension. So, wed with Truth, I dwell above the Veil." (W.E.B. Dubois)
 * Patrides was an inspiration to many many students, and it was my privilege briefly to study with him. I recalled some anechdotes on Eagldyth's talk page and above.
 * It is instructive to compare Patrides, who was a boy essentially visiting relatives but still risked his life with the Resistance, with Christopher Hill, the rival historian of Milton; they obviously detested the other person, yet acknowledged some respect for the scholarship. Hill, as a member of the Communist Historians Group, discussed ways to sabotage British Defenses in World War II, to aid the USSR's ally, Germany, when a Nazi was Hotsy Totsy.
 * It is useful to reflect on such examples to understand my revulsion at the treatment of anti-communism on Wikipedia. (Ben Wattenberg has a good quote about Tom Kahn, and the abuse piled on him; similar abuse seems stereotypical of writing on George Meany; look at earlier versions of the article on Meany.)
 * Sincerely, Kiefer .Wolfowitz 19:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing
No tools at all, usually. Earwig's and Coren's tools are AFAIK still down; those are what I used to use to catch non-cited sources, and Duplication Detector for cited, but all of these are automatic and as such have serious limitations. Thus, for articles with enough footnotes to make this approach feasible, I use my own procedure for spotchecking. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks!
 * I had a professional call to answer, that took longer than I thought. I shall now tackle the C.A.P. rewrite. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I rewrote everything it. Any remaining paraphrasing must be like "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote". Kiefer .Wolfowitz 18:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Go to CAP talk
I left a couple questions there for you, when you get a minute. Thanks. --  Kenatipo   speak! 15:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Kiefer .Wolfowitz 11:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for C. A. Patrides
Orlady (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC) 02:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Gang of Four (pro-Contra)
Thanks to Elen of the Roads for fixing the lede, when a block prevented me.


 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 21:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 21:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Distractions
I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone describe bluelinks as distractions, but I for one do find it very distracting when easter-egg links send you to the middle of an article, without even realizing what the name of the article is. Especially so since the link is on the word "Nicaraguan" (I would have been inclined to redirect it to Nicaragua). And especially so since, if one where to change a single letter in that subtitle, from now to DYK day, your link would lead nowhere. Another reason why I linked "Democratic" is that, without as much information, the non-American reader wouldn't even have a clue as to what country, what political system, and what Democrats we are talking about.

You're of course free to revert me, but I wish you give some consideration to the points I mention before deciding to do so. Regardless of what decision you take, I won't fight you over it. Regards, Dahn (talk) 07:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Dahn!
 * Thanks for replying. I was imagining that the plausible reader would already know that the Democrats usually opposed Contra aid. But you are right that the global WP project serves a wider audience. Your explanation was helpful.
 * Thanks, Kiefer .Wolfowitz 07:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, vainglorious authors minimize links at DYK, to help readers avoid getting distracted from the new article. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 09:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems bold typeface on the new article doesn't do the job anymore... :D. Anyway, I just want to throw in another thought, another stylistic reason why I add links: uniformity. I actually knew that Contras and the Democrats generally disliked each other, so I was able to understand the context and the quirk even though me and the subject never overlapped in real life - geography and time stood between us. But could I say the same about the average wikipedia user, even in the US? (For comparison, some of the things I write and DYK about Romania could already be familiar to an educated Eastern European - but many people outside this context may be entirely new to the whole range of subjects, understandably so, even in Romania. It just happens.) But we already agree on that, apparently. My other, new, point is about the DYK queue. Consider this: "Gang of Four" may end up in the same queue as "... that the Long-tailed Ground Roller (pictured), a species of bird endemic to Madagascar, digs a tunnel in the sand as an entrance to its underground nest?" and "... that Hyde Park-Kenwood Historic District (map pictured) contains the Kenwood, Chicago home of President of the United States Barack Obama?" and "... that the historic Lake of the Woods Ranger Station is located at the north end of Lake of the Woods near the crest of the Cascade Range in southern Oregon?" Judging by the concepts linked, and by those unlinked, we would be assuming that our readers don't know Madagascar, Oregon and Barack Obama (the President of the United States), but they know about the Democrats and can locate Nicaragua on the map. Come to think of it, the practical problem with the "I was imagining" argument (otherwise a perfectly reasonable statement) is illustrated by this hook: "... that HKT48's members have the youngest average age amongst all of the AKB48-related groups?" - I'm sure that the creator was imagining I would know/would want to know/care what the hook is about, but lo... I do not. I fear a hook that assumes tends to get the same result, and from many other readers.Dahn (talk) 11:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Dahn! You convinced me before and I was just riffing on blue-links for fun, after the self-deprecation "vainglorious authors". :)
 * Your examples are very good.
 * I was surprised to learn that the Romans conducted ethnic-cleansing because the ancient inhabitants of Romania refused to pay tribute. You might enjoy Egon Balas's autobiography Will to Freedom, which should be made into a Herzog movie---the protagonist having an indomitable will and all .... Kiefer .Wolfowitz 15:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello again. I'm not sure that "ethnic cleansing" tidbit is true - it used to be that there were two or three founding myths about how Romanians got to be Romanians, and the more sensationalist is the "the Romans killed them all" scenario. Romanians themselves tend to have a very romanticized perspective on this narrative, because it allows the average schmo to think himself a descendant of Roman emperors, a cousin of the great builders of monuments etc. But some are just as thrilled about the notions that the non-Romans (the Dacians) survived and intermingled - they like the story because everybody wins in the end, and the Romans' former enemies become civilized, and the Romans themselves learn to like the country (who wouldn't, right?)... But in fact the story is complicated, and, like any national construct, Romanian identity is vague and complex: so many of us "Romans" or "Dacians" have ancestries that me be as diverse as those of Americans. Even the original "Romans" who colonized Romania came from all over the empire; some where from Italy, not necessarily Rome; some were from the Alps, from Libya, from Greece, from Spain, from the Middle East, from wherever, and some even built the first-ever synagogues in Romania. These guys stayed behind for a while, did something to the natives (married them, killed them etc.), then came a shower of ethnic diversity that "pure" Romanians don't much like to think about. And that was just the beginning...
 * I'm sorry to say I don't really know much about Balas. But he does look like a fascinating person. Dahn (talk) 11:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * All of us are Africans, in some sense.
 * It is very hard for me to remember that Celts used to extend as far East as Prague, since they have been pushed back only to the West coasts of the Atlantic. Well---I don't care much for bag pipes ....  Kiefer .Wolfowitz 13:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * True. But then the ones that are left on the Atlantic are just those guys who still have a memory of being Celtic - one not taken out of their heads by convenience of by millennial witch hunts. The "other Celts" may still be somewhere in the regular European "bloodline", popping up among the vague ancestors of a Czech or a Volhynian, whereas today's Irishmen might only be the odd cousins, the half-Viking leftovers etc. It all depends on whether one chooses to see ethnicity as a DNA marker or a virus (in your blood, stays with you, may be passed on to your children, sets you apart from the rest) or more like what it is you plan to have for breakfast (your noble choice, but subjects to moods and more important to psychoanalysts than to census takers). After seeing some of the countless and fascinating avatars of human choice, authority and prejudice, I tend to think it's more from the "what's for breakfast" category. And that makes it much more fun, and much more breathable, than any "it's in our blood" theory. And it all really doesn't matter, because whatever else national identity is, it is primarily a matter of choice. Other than, of course, that we're all African :). Anyway, Kiefer, I don't want to hold up your page on spreading the good word; thank you for this interesting exchange, and I hope to see you around. Best, Dahn (talk) 22:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Gang of Four (pro-Contra)
PanydThe muffin is not subtle 08:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

George Meany: DYK in progress
I wanted to let you know that I've done a major expansion of George Meany. It still needs a lot of work, but I hope and think that it begins to do credit to the subject. Of course, it could benefit from your constructive criticism, so I hope that you will have the time to take a look, make some improvements, and give me some feedback. Thank you.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  05:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. Your edits show that you took the time to read my work and many of the sources I cited with care on your part. I've left most of your changes, but did minor tweaks to a few.  I suspect that your summary of his view of the elitism of the New Left is accurate, but would like a good, solid reference for that.  I will try to find what Harrington said about Meany as a democratic socialist.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  02:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The whole structure of the article and all of the references are yours. Given Tom Kahn's respect for Meany, and my respect for Kahn, I had trouble imagining that Meany's position was unqualified support for U.S. policy. I shall add the section on his anti-gay speech. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 17:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Meany has a boy scouts of america award named after him --Guerillero &#124; My Talk  05:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK for George Meany
Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Casliber, for your many contributions and kindnesses.
 * I tweaked the wording, to recognize Cullen328's great work in expanding the article, which I was happy to copy edit and suggest changes (often anti--anti-Meany NPOV).
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 11:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Warmest thank you for your help on George Meany
I really must tell you how proud I am for having taken the lead in improving and expanding George Meany, and I appreciate your help and input. Seeing it mentioned on the main page really warms my heart. You know, I've enjoyed every contribution I've made here, but a lot of my work is in in obscure, niche topic areas. As no one can dispute Meany's role as a giant in U.S. labor history, and considering that the article was a miserable, inaccurate stub only a few weeks ago, I think I've made a difference here, and I am very grateful for your help.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  15:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Jim/Cullen328,
 * You did a great job, and reminded us how complicated Meany was. The Meany article used to be a New-Left strawman, but after your expansion, Meany seems like an intriguing person.
 * I stand by my prediction, aided by the ghost of Joe Hill, that you will get the article to GA/FA status tout suite! Congratulations on getting it to be the Labor-Project's collaboration of the year! Kiefer .Wolfowitz 15:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Tom Kahn is now a GA
Congrats, and thank you for taking time to address my various requests. I hope you'll keep on contributing to this article (it is not that far from a FA now) and to others. Also, please consider reviewing another article in the area of your interest to deal with the backlog (~2 months) at WP:GAN. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 23:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, Piotrus, for your kindness and help. I especially appreciate your work on the references, which I may someday emulate in other articles.
 * Right now is a very stressful time in my life, and soon I shall be removed from internet access for 3 weeks. However, after January 15th or so, I should be able to help with a GA. (The last one I started was Lindahl pricing.)
 * Best regards,
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 23:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

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