User talk:Kieronoldham/Archive 7

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Suggestion for Haarmaan
I'd like to suggest adding in his nicknames as they appear in German. - Hoops gza (talk) 22:36, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you mean to the lede? Good idea. Feel free. According to German text I've found they translate thus: The Butcher of Hanover (Der Schlächter von Hannover); The Vampire of Hanover (der Vampire von Hannover) and Wolf Man (Wolfsmensch). Have a good weekend. --Kieronoldham (talk) 08:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC).

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February 2015
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 * amp;lpg=PA88&amp;dq#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false The Informant, the FBI and the Ku Klux Klan p. 88 )
 * Joan Baez sings "Birmingham Sunday " link includes lyrics.

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Language requirement
Is there a language requirement in school in England? - Bossanoven (talk) 05:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll remain inquisitive as to the basis of this message, Bossanoven. (?)--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:18, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I was just curious how you acquired your knowledge of Spanish, friend. - Bossanoven (talk) 05:23, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, I mispoke. Frankly, I was just curious about language requirements in England. - Bossanoven (talk) 05:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Over here in England, when pupils attend secondary school (ages 11 to 16), half the pupils will learn French, and the other half Spanish. (In some schools German is substituted for 1 of the languages and I've heard private schools offer other languages, too.) I was delegated Spanish and was the only male pupil to achieve an A grade when I finished school in 1996. Sadly I don't get to practice it much anymore. I don't know much about how the system differs in the USA.

Pupils are now taught a language at a much younger age as there was a concern about the number of pupils opting to study a language further at college. Obviously being in Europe with free movement of people in addition to immigration from across the globe there are a number of people from immigrant backgrounds who speak 2 languages fluently. A lot of Polish people (and other Eastern Europeans) in particular have settled in England since 2004. Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Here in the States they start us in grade 6 (that's about age 11), and language is a requirement up until about 16 as well (I forget whether it is two or three years required language in high school). However, there are many more options from which to choose, at least in a big city where I'm from.  They include Spanish and French, of course, but also such tongues as German and Japanese. - Bossanoven (talk) 03:07, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems you have a better selection of languages than us across the pond.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

A beer for you!
.
 * Thanks. Wasn't easy on my psyche doing that article, believe me. Nice to know you give kudos to the overall result.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Andrei Chikatilo
I see yopu have reverted my edit to this article (though you merely removed it and added a citation to something that was not disputed). The point of the change is that the previous version says that 15 years was the maximum penalty at the time. The next sentence says that he was retried under pressure from the relatives and given the death penalty. The problem is that there is no logic to this, since he had already been convicted: unless there was a change in sentencing policy. The two sentences need to be meaningfully linked. The only logical conclusion was that the death penaly was available at the time of the retrial, but not at the time of the original trial (otherwise "the maximum penalty at the time" is a nonsensical sentence). If this is erroneous, please state why. Removing an explanation that otherwise makes sense of the otherwise unintelligable jump does not help, unless you can improve the explanation. How does leaving it as it is with an unnecessary citation to something that was never altered or challenged help? Paul B (talk) 21:25, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Well if you look at the contributors' history I have greatly expanded this article. I've always been fascinated with this case. As for the somewhat contradictory overall message: well spotted. I'll look into that further and clarify the reintroduction. Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Birmingham pub bombings
Hi Kieron, you've done a lot of work on this article. I haven't looked through it all but thanks for all your effort. I've amended the infobox. Happy to discuss. --Flexdream (talk) 22:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * No worries. I'll be expanding this article further over the coming weeks and may have come back to that mention. I understand that 'revenge' sounds flailingly petty as a motive, but this article in which a former senior figure within the IRA finally divulges culpability, does state that the bombing was "revenge for the death of IRA bomber James McDade" (or, more precisely, how initial proposals for his funeral were prevented). I think it does deserve mention in the infobox, however. The source is reliable. Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable. The link in the infobox was to a different article, by the BBC, which mentioned fear of revenge attacks after the pub bombings, not revenge as a motive for the attacks. The other option of course is to just leave motives out of the infobox. Regards. --Flexdream (talk) 22:32, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Is there a discussion on victims' names at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse? WP:NOT refers to articles per se, not lists/names within an article. The list has been there for ages and many similar articles have similar lists. PS thanks for all your editing - good effort :) --Flexdream (talk) 22:53, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes there is a discussion I have taken there, Flexdream. If you look at the revision history of the Birmingham pub bombings article, another user has taken exception to the inclusion of the names of the fatalities within this article, using the (obsolete and disputed) talk page, and the WP:NOTMEMORIAL as his/her justification. Sadly, this editor takes exception to the inclusion of the victims' names in this article (and I've left a message on this editor's talk page). As much as I appreciate his/her integrity, the rationale is flawed as you point out. Please keep an eye on the article. Thanks for the kudos, much appreciated. :) Kez.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Cheers Kez. I've got a watch on your page so you can post to either my talk page or yours, you don't need to post to both. I can't find the discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse. Your approach on this is very sensible. Regards. --Flexdream (talk) 09:10, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, Flexdream. Here is a link to the discussion in question. User JoeHebda makes a good point, but I can't find a link to the victim list to add to the External links section (not that I've yet done major searching). Regards, Kez.--Kieronoldham (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Dahmer
Please read WP:CLAIM and WP:POV. Wikipedia is supposed to adhere to NPOV, and the language as I've edited it adheres to that. It repeats what Scarver has said and what the Reliable Sources have reported, simply and plainly, and lets the reader determine what is truth or fiction. The previous language was intended to push the POV that Scarver's recent statements are lies, which is a form of editorializing. I do think it's a good idea to discuss Scarver's various explanations over the years. Perhaps a Requests for Comment should be initiated? Kindzmarauli (talk) 14:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. Sorry I typed my previous one in a haste. I'm well aware of NPOV. I'm not pushing POV; I am merely stating Scarver "claimed" as opposed to "publicly stated" is hardly an infraction of NPOV. Really both versions are NPOV it is just the choice of "stated" or "claimed"; it tends to read in the 1st sentence, in the current version, that his word is to be taken at truth. To me, if Scarver had not told several contradicting versions of that morning, then sure he "publicly stated" would be fine, but as he has told other versions of these two murders, now he is "claiming" these murders were committed for different reasons - on his part and that of the two murder victims - altogether.

Basically I feel that the current structure of this paragraph leads the casual reader to believe his current statement/account is both trustworthy and supersedes all his previous explanations, not to mention the fact that his current claims are frankly ludicrous (I don't accuse him of lying his track record proves that in of itself), and in many instances easily disprovable (likely intended to promote the book he hopes to see published). Sources can refute some of his claims and throw into considerable question others. The reader needs to know his previous mental diagnoses - (another here) - and constantly changing accounts of the murder. As for Scarver's differing various explanations for his actions over the years. Good idea. I could add a brief chapter if you like?--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The paragraph about his conflicting stories over the years, reliably sourced, sounds much better than using loaded words like "claim" regarding this specific (most recent) statement. Have at and happy writing. Kindzmarauli (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * A loaded word would be "stated" i.e. as in loaded with pretense as to honesty and authenticity. I will return to that sentence in time and fully intend to happily rewrite it-in addition to resolving the dead links on the Dahmer article-unless another editor beasts me to these issues. I'll do this once I've completed the lion's share of the work on the Birmingham pub bombings article.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:08, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

It's a real book, after all.
Just from the "famous" to the forgotten, not infamous. So disregard the edit summary about the whole thing being bullshit.

Here's page 104. Notice it says "many of these attacks" (referring to the KKK, in general) can be rightfully called domestic terrorism. It doesn't say the church bombing was one such attack. It says it was "one of the most outrageous" "racially motivated attacks". It's implied, by context, but not stated.

As a mere implication by a relatively unknown author (or is this him?), it doesn't warrant a leadworthy statement of fact. Agree? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:38, July 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * With all respect, I think you're being a little choosy here. Although (I believe that) I initially inserted that reference when expanding the article, I can certainly understand either viewpoint as to both classification or non-classification. Personally, I believe the world events which have sadly occurred since the 60s have skewed the public's mindset as to what would classify as terrorism and what would not. A mass casualty attack by members of/affiliates of a group with their own ideology should classify as such.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:39, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Understanding viewpoints is well and good. My only problem was that the sources didn't back the claim, and the claim is controversial. Not a good mix. Better now, with Time and Britannica. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:09, July 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You're welcome. I could and would have found better references for that insertion, but MalikShabazz has already done so. Best regards & kudos. Kez.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:11, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Three
A serial killer is someone who has killed three or more people. Two does not qualify. But theres a lock on the page, so I couldn't change it. You should. Claire pineapple (talk) 22:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I know that. ;) If you're referring to the 'list' article I added a few references to yesterday, I paid precious little attention to the lede, but I'll please Claire pineapple by changing that word for you. :)--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

AN/I notification
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Specifically Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents Mabuska (talk) 00:45, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this. I did read your feedback regarding this user on the talk page of the Birmingham pub bombings article. I'll read further into the analysis of this editor's contributions.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Having received some feedback at the AN/I, I have filed an Arbitration Committee request for enforcement of Troubles restrictions against Gob Lofa instead at Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. Mabuska (talk) 14:16, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I have added my reply there. I'm in favour of a temporary block (everyone deserves a warning initially) and as stated there, he/she should have a permanent block if a prv. warning has been given already, Mabuska. Kudos for your dilligence. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 01:56, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 10
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Jeffrey Dahmer Admitted to 16 murders, where is the source ?
Back to the issue with Jeffrey Dahmer I am in agreement it says that in the Wikipedia Article that Dahmer admitted to 16 murders in Wisconsin, but where is the Cite reference?

The Total number of victims is 16 with no proof that Dahmer said 16 in Wisonsin nor did is there proof he said 2 in ohio. this leaves the total at 16. 15 in Wisconsin and 1, maybe 2 in Ohio.

If anything else the reference Dahmer made to 16 murders in Wisonsin should be either deleted or Cited with a Reference.

Thus he committed 16-17 murders, you can't prove 17. (his alleged confession has to be thrown out without proof he actually confessed to 16 in Wisconsin without a reference) (in my opinion). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwdamron (talk • contribs) 21:53, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Your reply is a little haphazard and meandering, but the gripe is his "proof" as to one Wisconsin victim, and a lack of locale citation? There is a reference as to why Dahmer was never charged with Tuomi's murder in the article if memory serves me correct... :Now, pages 167-183 of the book Milwaukee Massacre list the FULL 'Circuit Court State of Wisconsin Criminal Division Milwaukee County' filed against Dahmer on Aug. 21, 1991. This lists/details each case from Doxtator to Bradehoft. IF you gripe is regarding Tuomi (I'll assume as such) and you want another finely tuned referene, look at page 56 of the same book:

Tuomi's case is the only one in Wisc. in which charges will not be filed. Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann said he [had] brought charges only in cases he felt could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.


 * Put it this way: Ambassador Hotel records state that Dahmer had rented a room at the hotel in Nov. of '87 at $43.88 per night with an additional, refundable, charge of $10 for the key, and his description of the victim matched that of a blonde guy he called "Steve" who had last been seen in Ontanagon by his family on 9/15/87 and who was working in a diner in Wisconsin prior to his disappearance. He identified his photo in '91, too.


 * You yourself added that he confessed to two in Ohio - not me or anyone else. I've neither heard nor read about 2 in that state.


 * ALL sources state 17, and, to satiate you, should you request, I'll add the reference(s) harked to above. He confessed to 17 (let's face it, at least 5 victims ((Hicks, Tuomi, Doxtator, Guerrero and E. Smith)) would never have been linked to him had he not confessed).--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

"Killer Clown"
Hello, what do you think about the current "Killer clown" redirect? Should this be changed to a disambiguation page or what? - A window cleaner me (talk) 04:30, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That page has multiple redirect issues (in my own opinion). I think it's too indirect to exist and should be a disambiguation page, although I will emphasize redirects (just like page categories) have never been an area of Wikipedia I have devoted much attention to. I will add that, maybe 2 or 3 years ago, someone attempted to add a link to Evil clown onto the Gacy article and it was removed with little or no attempts to revert. Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:42, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Some suggestions
I notice that you tend to edit serial killer articles. If you're interested in researching some new subjects, I thought you might want to have a go at creating articles on these people, with what was printed in the New York Times to get the basics:


 * Christine Falling
 * Baby Sitter Arrest Came After 5 Deaths in 2 Years
 * Witness Says Baby Sitter Told Sister She Killed 5
 * FLORIDA BABY SITTER PLEADS GUILTY TO MURDERING THREE IN HER CARE


 * Marvin Francois
 * Carol City Killer executed - Miami News
 * AROUND THE NATION; High Court Clears Way For Florida Execution
 * Florida Prisoner Dies for Slayings


 * Wayne Robert Felde
 * AROUND THE NATION; Execution Decreed for Killer Of Louisiana Police Officer
 * NEW VIETNAM DEBATE: TRAUMA AS LEGAL DEFENSE
 * A Vietnam Veteran Who Said He'd Kill Again Is Executed

By the way, I'd suggest looking into the religious affiliations of serial killers if you can as many seem to turn to religion, such as David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer. Shouldn't Dahmer's page have a category for his religion? - A window cleaner me (talk) 22:15, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks. Yes that's where >90% of my attention is devoted toward: true crime on Wikipedia. They become almost like "expansion projects" to me, and for the most part, I devote attention to one at a time. I may look into those articles when I'm finished with the Michigan murders article, which I imagine I will be by weekend at the latest.
 * I may try and create one of these articles, but hope it won't be flagged for deletion via WP of notability (as some case articles have been over the years). I concur that Dahmer's page should have Born Again Christianity upon it, even though there is a category clarifying he had converted to Christianity. I also believe his family were originally Lutherans. Regards

You may wish to comment at Redirects_for_discussion. I suppose even a copy and paste job is sufficient. - A window cleaner me (talk) 03:49, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Any help/support, feel free to ask. Best regards, Kez.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Toolbox Killers
A question, what happened to Murder Mac? I suggest adding that in to the Bittaker/Norris article. - A window cleaner me (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi. Thanks for your message. It was impounded for searching (further details are in linked appeals upon the article). Needless to say, it was in said van that this was found. I believe the van was destroyed subsequently: it was thoroughly stripped as part of the search for evidence, having been re-modified by these two to accommodate rape and torture.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:14, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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Your talk page spelling
Correct spelling of word in your talk page re your username is "puerile". Yours, Quis separabit?  01:59, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I knew that; my glasses didn't. Thanks. :P --Kieronoldham (talk) 02:03, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

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