User talk:Killing Vector/Archives/2008/April

Pale Ale
Hi Stlemur. Tripels are ales. They are pale. There are references which are cited which say this. Do you have some other sources which describe them as lagers or stouts or wheat beers or something other than ales made with pale malts? I'm not quite sure what the issue is here. I am genuinely perplexed at your thinking. The opening sentences of the Pale Ale article defines the group quite well: "Pale ale is a term used to describe a variety of beers which use ale yeast and predominantly pale malts. It is widely considered to be one of the major beer style groups." Tripels use ale yeast and predominantly pale malts. They are predominantly amber in colour, though pale ales can range in colour from pale gold to dark mahogany. The colour of the beer is not the definition of pale ale (however an amber colour is the one most associated with the pale ale group), and pale ale is not in and by itself a style, it is a grouping of beers which historically have their own histories and cultures depending on their location. Hence we have British versions of Pale Ales, French versions, Belgian version and American versions, etc. Pale Ales come in various strengths, because it is not in itself a style, but a grouping. A strong pale ale made in Belgian is called Tripel, and while Tripels might wander about a bit (as beer styles tend to) what they certainly are, and what they generally tend to be described as are ales and made from pale malts, and they tend to be of an amber colour - the colour most commonly associated with beers within the pale ale grouping. What objection do you have to a Belgian pale ale being described within the Pale Ale grouping?  SilkTork  *YES! 23:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This discussion has been had already. Tripels are ales. They are often light in color. This is not the same as them being "pale ales". Furthermore, the statement "A strong pale ale made in Belgian is called Tripel" is demonstrably false; Piraat is not a tripel, La Chouffe is not a tripel, Duvel is not a tripel, and so say the breweries themselves. Finally, the source that you cited asserting that tripel was a kind of pale ale said no such thing. --Stlemur (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect you are thinking of Pale Ale as a style in itself. Pale ale is either a family of styles or a grouping, whichever way you want to look at it. It does contain English pale Ale/Bitter and American Pale Ale and other such beer styles. Pale Ale is those beers which are ales and are made with predominantly pale malt. Different cultures/countries will have different names for their own pale ales, but the family is still there. If you are thinking of Pale Ale as a style by itself which one are you thinking of - and how would the article need to be re-written (as it would have to be) in order to change it. Currently it is the article which aims to explain the history and tradition of the beers that developed around the early 1700s and spread around the world picking up local character. From this article we lead off into describing in detail the local pale ales: Altbier, American Pale Ale, Bitter (beer), India Pale Ale, etc. As pale ale is a group rather than by itself a style it has a range of strengths going from the weak Boys Bitters and Session Bitters up to Barley Wines, etc.  SilkTork  *YES! 07:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course I'm talking about it as a style. Look on the talk page of the article for discussion on the matter of the definition, which seems to have stalled out in between obtaining the sources and putting them into the article. But look at the lede:

Pale ale is a term used to describe a variety of beers which use ale yeast and predominantly pale malts.


 * That's an assertion without anything backing it up right from the get-go. Pale ales are an extended style, plain and simple; an arbitrary grouping of beers by similar color is not something I know of any beer scholar doing.

It is widely considered to be one of the major beer style groups.


 * That sentence barely even means anything.

All of the major ale producing countries have a version of Pale Ale: Britain has Bitter, America has American pale ale, France has Bière de Garde, Germany has Altbier, etc.


 * And there we have a misstatement (Bitter is "British pale ale"), a misrepresentation (American pale ale is as different from British pale ale as biere de gard or alt is) and a dubious grouping (Altbier, Biere de Garde...) all tied together by some undefined implied set of "major ale producing countries".

Pale ales generally over 6% ABV tend to be grouped as Strong Pale Ales under such names as Scotch Ale, Saison, or American Pale Ale.


 * I don't know of any scholarly source that groups beers together like that, and it is dead wrong to say that APA is typified by being over 6% -- SNPA, Stone Pale Ale, Sam Adams PA, Brooklyn PA, Troegs PA, Founders PA, Harpoon, Steelhead, all under 6%. --Stlemur (talk) 12:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)