User talk:Kluwer

Nazi child article
Hello 80, what do you think about moving Nazi children to Children of Nazism? The title as it is suggests that the children were Nazis themselves... Muriel 11:57, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, Muriel, and excuses for delay. "Nazi children" is historically the correct expression. All other appellations are euphemistic, distort the attention from the reality and make harm to the Nazi children themselves. The progeny of the Nazis are necessarily Nazis until they have proven otherwise. There is no other logical explanation to the reigning silence among the European Nazi children : They are afraid of revealing the truth. If they weren't Nazis they would be talkative as everybody else in our communicative era. The lack of generational clearness, the lack of an embodyment of own generation is nothing but a tragedy for millions of people who are not very young anymore. A social explanation is that the children remain Nazis as long as the postwar humanists continue to satanize the Nazi families.

The term "children of the Nazi era" which is used now is vague. It might include any child of continental Europe born in the middle of the 20th century. Kluwer (= 80...) Dec 14, 2003


 * I agree; I was dumbfounded when discovering the article's new and strange title. As you point out, any European child born 1933-1945 would qualify under the present title. However, I read your answer to Muriel as a kind of bitter-ironic sarcasm, which I have no trouble understanding, given the facts of the (mis)treatment of the Nazi children over the years. As a child of the 70s, I find it disturbing to notice the still remaining sharp hate among elder members of society towards Nazi 'girls' ('tyskertøser') and their children.


 * As for the correct title of the article, I think by Wikipedia policy of singular form titles it should be "Nazi child", with the plural referred to by putting a -ren suffix after the link, as usual. If nobody else does, I'll fix the title myself after a while. --Wernher 13:37, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

From Norway?
BTW, do you happen to come from Norway (your contributions suggest there's a chance)? In that case, I'd like to put your user name on the list of Wikipedians from Norway if it's OK with you. We're not many but our numbers are growing :-) --Wernher 14:08, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Reconciliatory efforts
I'm happy to read your comments, Wernher. Few persons are able to understand that behind the Nazi word, there are humans. One can say that it's the fault of the Nazi children themselves. Since we have remained silent during important decades of the post-war era, the winners naturally feel that they have no restrictions while diabolizing the losers, an exercice which has become a ritual in post-war Western culture. Nevertheless I will excuse the silence of the Nazi children. We were too young to stand upright, to say clearly who we were. We got no help from our parents for whom we were nothing in a political or cultural perspective.

I am looking forward to seeing your editing proposals. Kluwer 27 Feb 2004

Good edit.
I really like the edit you made to Nazism, but I think it may be seen as POV. You may want to look at it once more, and see if you can NPOV it once more. Thank you for your contributions, keep up the good work :) Sam Spade 05:13, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for tolerating my views, Sam Spade, and for your advice. Kluwer 28 Feb 2004

blocked for 24 hours
You have been blocked for 24 hours for massive vandalism. Depending on the opinion of other administrators, this may be extended further. Please stop vandalising wikipedia. --Improv 14:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * On second examination, I may have been too hasty in applying the block. I don't think it's appropriate to massively link all mentions of children to Nazi Children, but I see now that the context was actually restricted (mostly) to children of Nazis (although you got some other Fascists too). I have lifted the block, but I would suggest you discuss on talk pages before you create similar links in the future. --Improv 15:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Nazi children and NPOV abuse
I'm sorry Improv that I have upset you by linking some famous Nazi children to Nazi children. In a denazified Western civilization no such creature as "Nazi child" should exist. To a certain extent "child of Nazi" or "children of the Nazi era" are acceptable, on condition that such children are happy for being separated from their fathers and express joy for living in the civilization of Modern Humanism. Young man, such NPOV fanatism which you practise doesn't work any more. It's a pity that you want to make Wikipedia to a reactionary encyclopedia. The history of WW II and its aftermath is today being re-written. Persons erased from the correct Humanistic stories, or persons who have been NPOVed, de-nazified, de-vandalized (your choice) out of our common reality, are now writing their lives back into history. I know that many "correctly" educated persons like you feel upset, threatened. Take your time, and you will certainly find your good shape again. In the meanwhile you could separate "Nazi children" from "German kids" and give both their article. And replace the unclear "Children of the Nazi era" title with "Nazi children" or "Nazi descendants". And be kind and repair my links. Regards, Kluwer 29 Dec 2005


 * Oh, I think you're mischaracterising things -- I initially mistook your edits to be pure vandalism, partially inspired by the way you included children of italian fascists in your efforts (who were unrelated to the National Socialist movement). It also bore, in my initial judgement, a certain similarity to a lot of vandalism I've been involved in cleaning up where, for instance, people would go around and add words like "shithead" or the like to all the nazi-related articles they could find. When I took another look after blocking you, it became apparent that my initial judgement was premature, and so I unblocked you. This doesn't involve my politics, it just involves my Wikipedia judgement, which was too hasty. When it comes to how things should be, now I'm thinking on that level -- I think that, if an article is needed (and I'm not sure one is, because there's really not much encyclopedic to say), something akin to "Descendants of Nazi officials" would probably be most clear. A term such as "Nazi children" or "Nazi descendants" would be inappropriate because it would imply that such children are National Socialists themselves. Politics, as we know, are not hereditary :) However, I fail to see the point of such an article, or of identifying people as such -- there is nothing intrinsically interesting about being related to someone who was in a political movement, and especially with titles such as "Nazi XX", it seems to be sensationalising what in the end is nothing in a way that probably isn't proper for the encyclopedia. --Improv 16:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The West is obviously strange. How can encyclopedia follow up ? Maybe you're right, let people read straight articles, not texts which mirror social and historic complexity. The psyche of overt Nazi descendants is a result of a fascinating historic process.

First the liberalist ideologists made up of capitalists and communists, those who won WW II, can celebrate their moral excellence during sixty years on behalf of the Fascists and Nazis, without ever thinking that the celebrations, the blackening of the war losers and the lack of reconciliation were and are hard for the Fascist and Nazi descendants. Then the victors can chose to ignore the psychological damage which stigmatization of Evil induces in people's personality, specifically in children. You are seemingly a third generation victor who choses ignorance, of course due to your surroundings. Here are more readings in the case you one day will chose otherwise :
 * "Nazi Children Demand Reconciliatory Efforts"

Today we have managed to integrate the Nazi evil forced upon us. We have achieved mental health by own work, step by step, as a simple necessity for surviving. We are indeed Nazi children. The victors' satanization has worked for our profit, giving the Nazi children strength. The "Nazi" word has through us gotten new significance : it unites all vertues and goodness from our forefathers. Through us the Nazi word is stripped of all harmful war propagandistic significance. Nazi is the rallying word for ethnic pride and ethnic survival among all tribes of the earth, Jews included. We do all have a common interest in protecting us from humanistic anti-racists who manipulate for a unidimensional global culture based on race mixing.

Don't be afraid. We do not eat children of mixed blood. We venerate them as newcomers among us, with specific challenges for working out own cultural traits. Kluwer 30 Dec 2005


 * So you found a few people who want to rehabilitate the term Nazi by taking it out of its historical context. It would be a mistake to attempt to say that all children of National Socialists (officers or otherwise) feel that way. If you can demonstrate conclusively that some such children have views of that sort, and that those views constitute a movement, then for those children I can see the link being appropriate to a suitably written article. If you would make the link for all such children, that would probably be a mistake. --Improv 10:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh. I didn't realise that that's your site. Hmm. --Improv 10:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

You're a quick person, Improv. You understand that I have a double role to play, as a consequence of need and of evolution. I could simply not present the Nazi children topic on the internet, and in Wikipedia, without primarily having worked myself out of the classical child-of-Nazi depression, thanks to our organization in Oslo. Depressed persons are not very suitable for presenting or representing other depressed persons, if at all capable. So, I distinguish today between overt Nazi children and guilt-ridden children of Nazis.

But, who are helping the latter category to get out of their depressivity ? The victors seem to enjoy seing the children of Nazis strolling around year after year with their undue guilt feelings. My conclusion has been that Nazi children must help the children of Nazis. We have all been excluded from history by political measures (Read : denazification process or peace process) and can only re-enter history by political means.

It's time for an article on Nazi children including children of Nazis. As my brother says, you can put in the Nazi word whatever you like. Demonized words are pregnant with all kinds of human stuff. The Organization of Nowegian NS Children has chosen to put "tradition" into that word. Psychedelically modernized Europeans need roots, and freedom from anguish. Kluwer 30 Dec 2005


 * Klüwer, coming to Wikipedia in order to achieve a political end will generally lead to nothing but frustration. This is not Wikipedia's fight -- the Wikipedia project is about making an encyclopedia, and it is only about making an encyclopedia. Attempts to use it as a tool to shape public discourse in other ways are met with intense opposition and do not succeed. On a personal note and unrelated to policy, in a way unrelated to your movement, I know what it's like to have a family member (in this case, my father) do something shameful that makes people look down on them. I think the most healthy thing for me is not to minimise the suckiness of what he did, but to instead give it the appropriate condemnation but note that I share no blame for it. Sure, it's not the most fun situation in the world knowing that I can no longer respect my father, and cutting family ties sucks, but I would not whitewash or trivialise what happened. I don't consider it part of my identity to be a child of person who did X, because it doesn't impact who I am. I think it would be healthy for you to do the same, and especially to stop blaming the Jews and other Holocaust victims for calling attention to the WW2 atrocities. When a family member does something bad, you can either acknowledge/condemn it and move on, staying a just person, or you can trivialise it, shift blame, and tread a little bit in their footsteps. The second will eventually mess you up in surprising ways. We can't choose the circumstances of our birth -- we all would like to come from an upstanding family and sometimes it doesn't work out that way. We can, however, choose who we are. Back to on-the-record advice, the community, I suspect, will not let you pursue a political agenda here, and if that's your goal, Wikipedia is not the place for you. If you can avoid an agenda (I would encourage you not to write about WW2/nazi related articles, to avoid temptation), we'll be glad to have you. --Improv 17:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry for your father and his wrong steps in life. Anyhow you must try to reconciliate yourself with him thanks to the good sides your father had. All persons have good sides. I know what I'm talking about, Improv. I know what total criminalization is like, being a Nazi child. I know what diabolization is like for the offspring. (I hope nobody has demonized you for your father's sins, like Nazi children were demonized after the war.) It's for your children, Improv, that I write this. You're young now, but some day you will have children. Please, don't hide your father from them.

Back to your still going reflections over a tabooized topic : Nazi children. You don't catch the dimension of the topic simply because it's a taboo. Your vision is blurred while being in front of a post-war tragedy. You are unable to separate war and non-war, war time and post-war time. You're not alone, since you are a victim of Western post-war education, an education which is dependant on war time's mental attitude and propaganda. Your thoughts are predetermined, like your blame on me for blaming Jews. Blame blaming ! You see me in an evil Nazi's footsteps. My call for reconciliation between Nazis/Nazi children and victors/victors'children is unbearable for most Westerners, for the time being. Kluwer 19:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment moved
I've moved one comment related to War children from Talk:Descendants of Nazi Officials to Talk:War children. This is:
 * Talk:War children

If you disagree, please let me know -- Steve Hart 18:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)