User talk:Kober/Archive

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From Soso
Hi Kober. Nice to meet you. I just wonna let you know that I have wrtitten an article about Bagrationi Royal Dynasty, but they linked to the article, which says that Bagrationis were Armenian. So, I am completely shocked. I posted this on their talk page. That guy's name was Tupsharru, that maybe Turkish name, so that kind of sucks, if he has different point of view from us. "Dear Tupsharru, I do not believe you are consulting the sources from all points of view. This article primarily represents a biased view point. I can cite a Georgian Encyclopedia and many other sources that say different from that. Considering we are discussing an antiquity, there can't be 100% source that tells that Bagrationi were Georgian and not Armenian. So, please understand the Georgian point of view and tell me how I can bring back my article, because the article is about Georgian Kings and can't be written from the Armenian view point. I don’t know what nationality are you, but it is like saying the Queen of England is Portuguese. So, please advise something." Soso P.S. mirchie ra gavaketo, rom eg statia rogorme shevcvalot.

Gamarjoba
Gamarjoba Kober. Madlobt daxmarebistvis. rogorc ikna gamovakvekne chemi statia Bagrationebze, me mgoni rom xeli agaraefrm unda sheushalos. mec ise ar gamovricxav fakts rom seileba bagationebs da bagratid ebs ragac kavshiri kondet, magrma Bagrationebi kartveli mepeebi ikvnen da somxebi ar unda chaerion sakartvelos istoriashi, xazs vusvam rom araferi makvs somxebis sacinaagmdebi, radgan did pativs vcem magat kulturas da istorias. erti shekitxva maks shentan. rogor gamovakvekno kartuli statia kartul wikipediashi. chveublebrivad Word shi avkrife statia da copy rom gavukete editor shi inglisurad icereba. Gtxov mirchio rame tu dros gamonaxav. Soso

Shatberdi
Hi Kober, you were asking about the monastery of Shatberdi. This certainly was one of the most important and most productive monasteries in whole Tao-Klarjeti. The intellectual spearhead of the region, if you want. Its location, however, is disputed. Some scholars believe that it can be identified with Yeni Rabat near Ardanuji. Others argue that the itinerary, described in the vita of St Grigol Hanzteli, is a clear indication for that the monastery of Shatberdi must have been situated west of Ardanuc, and not, as in the case of Yeni Rabat, east of Ardanuji. The Turkish art historian Mine Kadiroglu has published an article in "Georgica" in 1999 in which she suggests that Shatberdi could be identified with a place southwest of Ardanuc, close to the village of Köseler. Best wishes, Sofie.

PS.: I would like to learn more about your conception of Tao-Klarjeti. As I currently see it, it was region of great cultural exchange, where ideas had a free flow. Armenians and Georgians coexisted and intermingled in Tao-Klarjeti at that time, and I feel it is a pretty useless discussion weather Tao-Klarjeti was Georgian or Armenian. It probably was both. But what matters is that people did not think in terms of nationality at that time. Nationalism is a mind-child of the 19th century, and it is a pity to observe that some people tend to transpose their nationalist concptions on historical issues and places. Check out Tao-Klarjeti and User:Hetoum.

Tao/Tayk
Hello Kober,

Thanks for leaving comment on Bagratids of Tao/Tayk. Yes wedo share much history together, and unfotunately our current relationship is strained. I just htought that in these sections Armenian side of the story was being drowned out. I hope we will be able to contribute to Articles together in the future.

Regards, Hetoum

☆
Hello, I see that you contributed some nice articles on Russia-related topics. Would you be so kind as to announce such articles on this notice-board in future? Thanks in advance, Ghirla -трёп- 13:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. You should check "what links here" (look to the left from the edit box). If the article is linked to the notice-board or its archive, then someone already announced it before. Old articles are better announced on Portal:Russia/Hidden Gems. Happy edits, --Ghirla -трёп- 19:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Need help with a POV-pusher
Hey Kober,

I noticed on your user page that you're Georgian. Perhaps you could talk to this POV-pusher over on the Abkhazia page. He he continues to attempt to add his own bias to the article. He has cited works such as "History of the Georgian people" and "Making of Georgian Nation"... See the talk page for more information. Thanks. --Khoikhoi 06:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Tavisupleba
Can you help me overhaul this article? I cannot find much resources in English, and I cannot read Georgian, so I really need someone who can read ka. Thanks. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. What I want to do is try to make this article featured, along the lines of the Belarusian and Mexican anthems. Also, if you edit at KA, I uploaded a few things to the Commons you can use over there. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * One more thing, it might not make it to FA but I am glad the article is at least looking fairly decent. Thanks again. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to you too. I'd like to add some more info about the regulations but the appropriate presidential decree is not available at president.gov.ge. Keep on with your good work! Kober 19:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * While it was adopted in 2004, not much information is available, due to GE probably not having much internet resources, my lack of ability to read and understand KA and most of the English websites are updated by people who are into the study of anthems. I will see what else I can do, too. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Abkhazia article, biased anti-Georgian POV
Dear Kober, I’m ready to co-operate with you on the article if you will allow me to do so. The article is without any reliable source or scholarly article. Mr Koikoi called me a pro Georgian POV due to the reasons that i quoted scholarly, historical materials of David Marshal Lang (Professor of Caucasian studies, Harvard University) and W.E.B. Allen (well knows historian of Ancient Armenia and Caucasus). Both books are titled Georgians or History of Georgian Nation. There is no single book about Abkhazian nation or History of Abkhazia. The only valid source for Abkhazian history you may find in books based on Georgian History by western scholars and historians (except George Hewitt who has an Abkhazian wife and has proven to be biased). Mr Roger Rosen (long time scholar of that region) has extensively and for a long time studied Georgia and Caucasus. He also has valid and reliable sources for the historic part of Abkhazia and war period. Please refer to his work for details (I can send you his materials). Another specialist of Caucasus conflictlogy is Dr Andrew Andersen, who has created many historic maps and scholarly articles about Abkhazia, Chechnya, Karabakh and Georgia. Mr. Khoikhoi fails to understand the importance of reliable, well documented primary and secondary sources. You can not oppose the existing academic work which is available for public. I can provide with full info on what i have mentioned above. I was lucky enough to have worked at University of Toronto where they have amazing collection of historic materials about Abkhazia. Luis Dingley YU Thanks.Noxchi Borz 18:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Question
Would you be able to tell me if the "Education Credit Union of Georgia" is particularly notable in Georgia? Some user ( keeps adding references to his/her company in articles. --Khoikhoi 19:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I had not heard of that organization before and I really do not have an opinion whether it is worth to be included in Wikipedia. It looks like a self-promotion to me. Hope this helps. Kober 19:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'm going to revert this guy as it looks like spamming to me as well. --Khoikhoi 19:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Kartlis Tskhovreba
It would have been great if you wrote the article about this chronicle and explained why such a late source can be trusted in describing rulers predating Christ's era. --Ghirla -трёп- 12:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course, the history of that time is a mixture of fact and legend, but there’s a general agreement in modern history writing that the early medieval compilers of the Georgian chronicles may have used not only traditional verbal accounts but also much earlier written sources composed perhaps in Arrameic (Georgian became written language in the 4th-5th centuries; some would say it occurred in the 3rd century BC, but there’s no evidence to prove this). Surprisingly, many international scholars date the possible predecessors of Kartlis Tskhovreba to earlier times than their Georgian colleagues do.


 * The first named Iberian/Kartlian king attested in foreign sources is Artag (Artoces of the Roman authors) who was defeated by Pompey in 63 BC. Since then many of his successors (Pharsmanes/P’arsman, Rhadamistus/Rhadam, Meribanes/Mirwan, etc) figure in the Classical accounts.


 * Currently I’m mostly making minor edits because I have very limited time. I’ll probably write a few sentences about the Georgian primary sources as soon as find enough time.


 * I understand your surprise about Mirian I’s alleged Achaemenid descent. I agree this claim seems rather incredible and needs to be reformulated (I already did this).


 * P.S. If you have interest and time, you may wish to look through Rapp, Studies in Medieval Georgian Historiography: Early Texts And Eurasian Contexts (ISBN 9042913185). I like this book because it takes somewhat a novel approach to the problem of the Georgian primary history writing. Kober 17:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand that you are busy, but please take a look at Mongol invasions. We still have no article about Mongol invasion of the Caucasus or Mongol invasion of Georgia. I hope you will find time to eliminate this red link. Cheers, Ghirla -трёп- 10:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for calling it to my attention. I’ll work on this. Regards, Kober 05:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Ajaria
In response to this, my bad - the ".com" threw me off there. &mdash;Khoikhoi 06:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's OK. It first looked like spamming to me as well until I checked out the website. Thanks, Kober 06:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Saakadze
Kober. In your article about Saakadze you don’t mention the allegations of him being a traitor to the King of Georgia. There are many sources which claim that Saakadze had more personal ambitions and liberating Georgia was not in his agenda. Im not sure how accurate is that. Are there any indications of that in "Qartlic Cxovreba" or in Vakhushti Bagrationis book about Georgian history? As I know there are some Georgian historians who share that view and support those claims. What do you think about that? Also have you had chance to read Sir Oliver Wardlops book on Georgian History? Here are Dr Andrew Andersens historical maps of Georgia (I have his email and if you want to use his maps I can ask him), he is one of the best specialist in history of Byzantium, Armenia and Georgia. http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Georgia/geor_geschichte.htm All the best. Noxchi Borz 16:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Noxchi. Concerning the article about Saakadze, my bad - I've translated it almost directly from the Soviet-era Georgian encyclopedia which did not allow such claims to be mentioned. Indeed, there have been many who considered him a typical feudal adventurer ambitious to sieze the crown of Kartli-Kakheti. However, a wartime propaganda movie from Stalin's times illustrated this controversial figure as an ideal fighter for his Motherland, an image which would persist in official Soviet Georgian historiography. I will make proper corrections in the article. Thanks for calling it to my attention.


 * Unfortunately I have not got Sir Oliver's book and would like to read it. It would be great if you ask Mr Andersen to allow us to use his maps in wiki articles. Many thanks in advance, Kober 20:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. I looked through your article about the ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia. All the Georgian names are correct.


 * Dear Kober, thanks for your answer. I will ask Mr Andersen for maps. Do you personally believe he was feudal adventurer? its very interesting. His life is very mystical for me and there are many controversial parts to it. The Bagrationi article is a huge mess. I think it was originally created by Armenian nationalists and later due to Lavzur the admins took their side. all the best kober. BTW where are you from? Noxchi Borz 22:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * p.s Sir Oliver wrote an amazing book about Georgian History (The Georgian Kingdom). I think he was one of the best Kartvelian specialists in England. His sister Majory translated Rustaveli's epic. I wrote an article about Sir Oliver: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Oliver_Wardrop Do you live in Tbilisi? His book is very expensive because it’s very rare. Its was auctioned and I had a chance to get it. I can copy it for you and send it via mail.  Regards Noxchi Borz 00:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Noxchi. As for my opinion about Saakadze, I think he was indeed a very controversial person and perhaps combined in his character both patriotism and adventurism. On the one hand, he left his favourite son as a hostage in the Shah's hands when he joined the rebels in Georgia and led them in the 1625 uprising. One the other hand, he failed to reconcile, due to his ambitions, with King Teimuraz and his party after more or less successful struggle against the Persians, precipitating a civil war. So it's really very hard to me to give you a straightforward answer :)).


 * I'm from Tbilisi and presently live there. My family name, Koberidze, has its origin in the highland province of Racha.


 * Many thanks again for taking so lively interest in Georgia. I loved your article about Sir Oliver Wardrop. I'd be really happy if get a chance to read his book. I really appreciate your kindly help. I've enabled email from other wikipedia users so as you can contact me via email. Regards, Kober 10:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr Koberidze :) So you are Rachvelian? I never been there :( Only in Abkhazia, Imereti and in Tbilisi. Do you know the head chief of White house during Mr Bush (the father) was Rachvelian? :) So you still support the notion that Saakadze was patriot? Why did Stalin make that movie? It would encoring georgian patriotism. I guess it was due to German policy, which supported Georgian liberation and created 30,000 strong Georgian Legion in Wermacht and also in Abwehr (under patronage of Admiral Canaris). Soviets were loosing many Georgians who fled to the german lines. Im not only one who is interested in Georgia. I have friend here Nathaniel Halifax who is studying Georgia for 10 years now in University of Toronto. I was fascinated by Ethiopian, Coptic and Caucasian cultures for a long time now. Im trying to work on my masters on Caucasian history at York. I also study the case of Abkhazia and have many contacts with journalists who worked there from New York and Abkhaz Diaspora in US. I have tons of never seen photo and video materials. If you are interested let me know. But I dont have right to publish them. There is very interesting and horrific video material about Sukhumi massacre. It was sent to Hague and UN. OSCE actually reviewed it and agreed with georgian side about the allegations of mass murder and ethnic cleansing. All the best Kober :) Noxchi Borz 17:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:AM
Hey Kober. I asked the user to remove it. If he doesn't then I'll just remove it myself per WP:RPA. &mdash;Khoikhoi 16:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Many thanks indeed. Cheers, Kober 16:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Georgia Box
A gift for Kober :)Noxchi Borz 20:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If you agree to keep Chechen one, please vote Keep here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_April_25#.5B.5BTemplate:User_independent_Chechnya.5D.5D


 * Givi can you please add this box to the sandbox of countries in the list?


 * OK, done it. Regards, Kober 06:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Tbilisi Metro
Привет, sorry if our introduction on the voting got the wrong messages across, anyway I am a big (and I mean BIG) fan of Metro. I was wondering if you would like to participate on improving the quality of Tbilisi Metro which has been started off, but I never got to continue it. Also can I ask you to translate the station (and line) names is a similar manner as shown here. Also if you can get some photos that would be excellent. Have a look at some of the Metro articles that I have created (under the BIG link) and see what is expected. I can help, but having never been to Tbilisi I would have to base ALL of my knowledge on third party sources. --Kuban Cossack 20:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, I see you've done a great work on metro-related articles. The official Tbilisi Metro website went dead. I'm currently searching for any information available across the Georgian resources. I will see what else I can do. Best wishes, Kober 06:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the updates, I need you to check the translits and the facts on the line articles that I just created Gldani-Varketili Line, Saburtalo Line.--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white).svg|25px|]] 14:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Done it. Kober 15:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Can I still ask you to give me a similar translate of names as here? --Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white).svg|25px|]] 19:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I've done it at the List of Tbilisi metro stations page. If there's anything else I can do to improve the list, just drop me a line. Regards, Kober 19:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ahh, well in that case are the residential districts themselves named after anything (also if you add the previous names of the stations as well that would be most appreciated)?--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white).svg|25px|]] 19:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Basically the reason I am asking is this table in ru:wiki which we are trying to compleate. As you can see we got everything EXCEPT Tbilisi.--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white).svg|25px|]] 19:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OK. I'll work on this. Kober 20:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Also isn't it Gldani-Varketili Line instead of Dibudi-Samgori?--Kuban Cossack [[Image:Flag of the Russian Empire (black-yellow-white).svg|25px|]] 20:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. Gldani-Varketili is an official name, though Didube-Samgori is also frequently used. Kober 20:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Arshakids
In List of the Kings of Georgia, these three Kings are categorized under Arshakids. This is a bit confusing as one may assume they are related to either the Arsacid Dynasty or their Armenian branch Arshakuni Dynasty. Neither is the case. Shouldn't they be categorized as Artaxiads?--Eupator 17:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right. This confusion comes from the Georgian annals according to which the Arsacid (more precisely, Arshakuni) rule in Georgia (Iberia) was established around 90 BC. This account, however, seems implausible as the Arsacids actually began their reign in Armenia in AD 54, i.e., more than two centuries later. Some modern scholars consider the alleged Georgian Arsacids a local dynasty to whom the later authors invented a mythological foreign ancestry, not an unusual thing in ancient and medieval genealogies. Some historians, however, think this is an apparent confusion with the Artaxiads. Toumanoff believes the true Arshakuni of Iberia are the dynasty claimed by the Georgian chronicles to be a cadet branch of the Persian Sassanids (circa AD 186-284). I’ll soon revise the list of the Georgian kings. Kober 18:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Givi can you please tell me in few words about Nimrod dynasty in Georgia? Where did it originate from? Did this dynasty have any connections with the Nimrods of Mesopotamia? Also what do you mean by Parnavazian dynasty? Is it true that Parnavaz came from the line of Kartlos? Its according to Vakhushti Bagrationi and Lang. Also can you please tell me if it’s true that King Mirian I was related to Darius family of Persia? Was his Persian ethnically? Noxchi Borz 19:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

David Marshall Lang
Dear Givi, please review the article on Lang and add any additional info or edit any mistakes. Thanks in advance. All the best Luis. Noxchi Borz 14:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Marshall_Lang


 * Hi Luis, I loved your article on Lang. I just made some minor edits including categorization. As for the early dynasties of Iberia/Kartli, the Georgian annals call two kings, Parnavaz I (who claimed his descend from Kartlos) and Saurmag I, Parnavaziani. The latter had no son, and adopted his son-in-law, the Persian prince Mirian (the future king Mirian I), allegedly a descendant of the Nimrodid (Nebrotiani of the Georgian sources) Iranian royal dynasty. His son, Parnajom, is also referred to as Nebrotiani, and grandson, Arshak, Nebrotiani-Parnavaziani. Thus, this royal line was considered as a continuation of Parnavaz's house prompting C. Toumanoff to introduce the dynastic name Nimrodids or the 2nd Parnavazid Dynasty. However many of the genealogical connections in the Georgian chronicles are considered by modern scholars conjectural and Mirvan's Nirmodid ancestry is probably mythic.


 * I'm looking forward to your article on Georgian officers in the Polish army. I don't know much about them with the exception of Valerian Tevzadze and Dimitri Shalikashvili. Poles and Georgians always sympathized each other in their struggle for freedom. Many participants of the Polish uprisings against the Tsarist regime were exiled to the Caucasus, and they were cordially received by the Georgians. Cheers, Kober 20:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr Koberidze :) Thanks a lot for your great work on the Lang article. I did not know those facts which you added. I’m still confused about Mirian. He was adopted by which King of Iberia? Some sources claim that he was from the direct line of Darius family. Don’t say mythical, you never know. Maybe he was of Nirmodid ancestry. The article about Georgians in Poland would be a difficult task. There is almost no info about them in English, most are in Polish. Actually, Georgians were the only non-Polish people who got highest awards in polish military. They were also highly regarded by Polish generals. Actually, in 1920 Polish government created liberation movements in Caucasus. They had great research center in Warsaw to study Caucasian people. They contributed large amount of funds to organize liberation armies all across Caucasus. They made three operations in Georgia by using elite troops (mostly émigrés) which included units for sabotage, propaganda agitation, etc. All of them failed. Later Germans used similar tactics and gathered knowledge from the Poles (especially Admiral Canaris, chief of Abwehr). They created special Georgian units within Abwehr and Brandenburg units. One of them was called "Tamar I and II"
 * I have many materials about German aid to Georgians. All of that was thanks to Polish research and work. Polish hoped to weaken Russians by helping separatist and liberation movements within Soviet Russia. All the best givi. Im currently working on Wikitravel section on Georgia. I was horrible and i want to fix it. BTW what happened to Lavzur?

Noxchi Borz 21:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Luis. You are correct. Who knows? Perhaps Mirian really descended from the Nimrod house. The Georgian Chronicles say "Mirvan was of the Nebrotiani (i.e., Nimrodid) royal family of Persia". This Nebrotiani might be a generic term applied by the chronicles to the ancient dynasties of Persia. That's probably why he is purported to have belonged to Darius dynasty. I don't know if there was any connection between the Achaemenids and Nimrod, but I've read somewhere that the medieval Christians sometimes identified Zoroaster with Nimrod. Maybe this is the cause why ethnically Persian and obviously Zoroastrian Mirvian is referred to as Nimrodid. Mirian I (or Mirvan) was married to a daughter of the 2nd Iberian king Saurmag (Parnavaz's son), who had no son and adopted Mirian as his heir to the crown of Iberia. Mirian ascended the throne upon Saurmag's death, initiating the Nimrodid, or the 2nd Parnavaziani dynasty.


 * Dear Luis, thanks for your comments on the Polish-Georgian cooperation. I recall there is a Polish director Jerzy Lubach who has shot a documentary film about the Georgian officers of the Polish army . We may also work to expand the article on Georgian Legion when you have enough time.


 * As for Levzur, he waged relentless edit wars and violated many of the Wikipedia rules before being blocked several times. Then he ceased to edit wiki in remonstration to the admins. He is a strange guy. Wiki is also a strange website with many positive and negative sides. All the best, Kober 15:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Givi more i study Georgian history more scary it is :) Such a rich and ancient history. Do you know that there is a theory claiming that King Midas had iberian (tiberani) blood? I can give you the source. I think if you research Mirian, you will definitely find materials which support the theory of his connection with Nimrod and Darius family. Parnavaz was from the line of kartlos?
 * Givi, I have many photos of Georgian Legion. Do you want them? If so, i'll do that on Monday. Sowe of thsoe are mine :) from ebay auction, you can post them.
 * Wiki is very strange web site, lots of biased an un-sources materials. Many Russian provocateurs and nationalists. But i love Wikitravel. Im working on georgia travel section. Givi my best friend here in Toronto, George Nikoladze is coming to Tbilisi. You should meet him :) Also my another Friend Nat Halifax (last of the Halifaxes) is coming, he is kartvelian freak at University of Toronto. Noxchi Borz 21:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Did King Midas have Iberian blood? Really? Wow. It’s very interesting. Parnavaz is indeed called Kartlosiani in the Georgian chronicles. It would be really great if you give me the source. How can I reach Mr Nikoladze? Many thanks in advance for your photos on Geo Legion. I really appreciate your kind help. It will make the article on the legion much better. Dear Luis. I’ve just found a website run by the Georgian community of Poland. There are two articles pertaining to the Georgian officers. They are in Georgian, but seem to have been translated from Polish. I guess there are Polish versions too. Anyway, I’ll translate them from Georgian and post on your talk page. There a few photos (most probably in public domain) which I’m going to upload. The website is a bit unorganized and I cannot even find their email. I’ll see what else I can do. Kober 21:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Georgia in Hebrew
Hi,

I see that you edit a lot about Georgia, so i wanted to ask for your opinion on this issue:

The name of Georgia currently used in Israel is גרוזיה, which is pronounced just like Russian Грузия. Accordingly, Georgian people are called Gruzinim, and Georgian language is called Gruzinit. Most probably these names came to be used in Hebrew under the influence of the immigrants from Russia. Until the sixties the names גורג'יה (Gurjia) and גאורגיה (Georgia, like Russian Георгия) were used, but now hardly anyone remembers them.

Recently the ambassador of Georgia in Israel requested the Israeli government to use גאורגיה - "Георгия". The government and most of the mass media pretty much ignored this request and still use "Gruzia", however in the Hebrew Wikipedia most of the instances of "Gruzia" were renamed to "Georgia" in some renaming frenzy (and i was a part of it :) ). Now that the Hebrew Wikipedians start noticing that the Hebrew WP is one the very few places who listened to the ambassador, a discussion has started about reverting back to Gruzia. There is still no concensus. Until recently i prefered "Georgia", but now that i read about the history of the names i became totally confused. Gruzia is apparently more related to the Persian name and it is not a Russian mutilation of Georgia (as i used to think), and the name Georgia has little to do with St. George ... or maybe i am still getting it wrong.

If you ask for my personal opinion, i'd recommend the Georgian government to request all countries to call Georgia "Sakartvelo" - it's authentic and sounds very nice to my ears. But that probably won't happen.

If you would have to choose between Gruzia and Georgia, what would you pick?

Thanks, --Amir E. Aharoni 20:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Amire, Kober will give you the best answer but I can contribute too if I may :) You see Gruziya is not suitable for a name in Hebrew. I studied Hebrew at York actually. This name came from Russians and they took it from Persians (Gurj, meaning wolf) or Arabic (Kurj). Israel used this name because of Russian Jews who immigrated after 1950s. They suggested that term. However, the Georgian Jews (who live din Georgia since the days of Babylon and maintained their Jewish heritage) also spoke Hebrew but did not use the Russian version. They actually used Georgian version . The ambassador to Israel suggested a more suitable way to call Georgia in Hebrew. I think Israelis should gradually change it from Gruziya in press, books and later officially. Georgians are offended by that term in Israel. Many Georgians Jews too had problems with that name. They actually lobbied the ambassador to ask Israeli government for the change. Its sad because both nations are connected very closely and had very old relationship. Georgian word “ebraeli” is a unique name for Jews only. This word is very ancient and nobody knows where it originated from. Actually it was used in old Georgian too. I agree with you, saqartvelo sound best :) Noxchi Borz 21:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly! There is little to add to your comments, Luis. Though both Georgia and Gruzia come from the Persian Gurj, Georgia is an earlier name than Gruzia, which wasn’t actually in use until the 17th century. However, the fact that the government of Israel and media continue to use the Russian-derived form makes the issue more complicated. Amire, maybe you should wait awhile to really see whether or not the authorities are going to use the name requested by Georgia’s embassy and then revert the names in wiki articles.


 * As for me personally, I much prefer Georgia (not only because of political reasons, of course:)). I’m pretty sure most Georgians also think so. Hope this helps. All the best, Kober 21:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Georgia in Hungarian
Haliho, Kober. I can see that this discussion is more than one year old, but anyone who finds this discussion page like I found it may find it useful to learn that we are having a debate in the Hungarian Wikipedia which is similar to what I read here about the Hebrew Wikipedia. Georgia's new ambassador to Budapest also asked Hungarians to abandon the Gruzia name and use Georgia instead. And some Hungarian papers have started to do that. The question we all have in the Wikipedia debate is whether Georgians are generally displeased/hurt/embarrassed if they are called Gruzians. (If it is kind of an insult, it is out of question to keep that word, we must definitely shift to using "georgia" in my view.) Should we escalate this discussion to the wider Wikipedia forums? Other languages must be affected, too. Best regards, --Korovioff 11:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Confederation
Givi i need your help on the Confederation of Mountain Peoples of the Caucasus can you add russian version of their name? And also edit and add more info on this organization? Thanks in advance. All the best. Noxchi Borz 19:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Good job:), Luis. This article was one of Wikipedia's most wanted. I added a Russian name. You may wish to look at the Prometheism page. It's quite a well written article. Thanks, Kober 20:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear Givi, thanks for your help and the article on Prometheism. I really enjoyed it. I always admired Marshal Józef Piłsudski. We must add more to the article about Confederates. Especially we need info on this organization after Abkhazia war. As i know Soslanbekov was assassinated in Moscow. Noxchi Borz 20:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear Luis, I think there are not many reports on the Confederation’s post-war activities. They never dissolved, but have been inactive since Soslambekov’s assassination in 2000. They never elected his successor. I’ll try to find some more info to add to the article.


 * Can I ask you to attach a couple of photos to the Georgian Legion article? It desperately needs to be improved. Many thanks in advance. Kober 06:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Givi, I did attach photos from my collection but please fix the HTML. Im bad in HTML :) I have more photos and archived documents of Georgians in SS and Abwehr. After this I will attach photos to the Texel rebellion and Maglakelidze (please review them). Cheers. Noxchi Borz 13:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Great work! The photos are really rare and interesting. Many thanks again Luis. I added a few sentences about the post-1993 developments to the article on the Confederation. All the best, Kober 15:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)




 * Here is my golden one. This is most rare photo :) Although this Georgian volunteer has breast eagle (which implies that belongs to Wermacht) he has black SS color tabs, therefore indicating that he belongs to Georgian SS unit under the command of the StandartenFuhrer (later BregadenFuhrer) Michael Tsulukidze. Note his Georgian volunteer arm shield (later SS Georgien had different ones). You may use this one for article on Georgian SS. I also have very rare document of high ranking SS officers. I'll show you later. Noxchi Borz 18:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Tsulukidze
From Berlin archive the list of high ranking SS officers, StandartenFuhrer. The top name Michael-Pridon Tsulukidze is underlines in red. Clink on imige to enlarge it. Noxchi Borz 19:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)



Wow!!! I can’t express enough what a contribution you have made. Thank you very much, Luis. Let me share with you this photo of Major Giorgi Mamaladze. He went to Poland following the Soviet invasion of Georgia in 1921. Mamaladze graduated from the Polish military school and served as a contract officer in the Polish army. He took an active part in the 1939 Septemeber campaign against both the German and Soviet armies. Mamaladze was then captured by the Soviets and executed along with his Georgian and Polish comrades-in-arms during the Katyn massacre in 1940. Kober 18:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear Givi, thanks a lot for Mamaladze's photo. I actually was looking for it a year ago and finally thanks to you I have it now. How about we prepare in future the article about Georgians in Polish army and also Georgian émigrés in Poland? Let me know. Thanks again and all the best. Noxchi Borz 21:06, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Great idea, Luis. I found two articles about Prometheism and Georgians in Poland on the website of the Georgian community of Poland. These are Georgian translations of original Russian or Polish articles. The website is a bit unorganized and I cannot even find their email to ask for some additional info. I'll translate and compile the sources I found. Let's work on the article. I think you can contribute more to it. I'm fascinated with your knowledge of the Georgian history:). It's really very very appreciated. Cheers. Kober 20:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. Can I also ask you to give me the source claiming King Midas' Tibarenni origin? It's really very interesting. Thanks in advance.


 * Givi, I'll get you the source. Its in the book by Lang. I'll find the page. I'm attaching the photo of Dmitry Shalikashvili with his two sons (one of the John). This photo was taken in Poland. I'll left you the massage in my talk page. Thanks a lot for your kind words. You and Lavzur made a huge contribution of Georgian articles on Wiki and not me. You should be proud of yourself :) I'll gather more sources in Georgians in Poland. All the best Givi! Noxchi Borz 14:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * p.s take a look at Katyn massacre, i added Georgians. Noxchi Borz 15:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)



Supreme Soviet
Hi,

Maybe you could write the Georgian name at Supreme Soviet. --Amir E. Aharoni 18:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for calling it to my attention. Done it. Kober 18:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Georgian emigration in Poland
Thanks for the article on Georgian emigration in Poland, it was a truly missing topic. Kudos! // Halibutt 15:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I didn't know I could still blush, it's not that common at my age :) Anyway, you really do a great job here, as can be seen at this very talk page: I've never seen a user who'd have three successive wiki awards in three successive comments on his/hers talk page. // Halibutt 16:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Never heard of these gentlemen. Probably the Polish form of the name of the earlier was either Bogdan Górecki or Bohdan Górecki, as Górecki is a common Polish surname given either to mountaineers (góra means a mountain in Polish), or simply to people who immigrated to where they were given the name from some high place (often a hill just a few miles away). OTOH Gurjiecki does not sound in Polish... I might be wrong though.
 * Anyway, it might be a nice thing to trace some earlier contacts between Poland and Georgia. In late Middle Ages a large part of merchants who settled in Poland were Armenians. It's quite probable that many of them were in fact Georgians or Azeri or members of any nation from that part of the world as mediaeval people were not very keen on geography... I'll see if I can find some earlier traces... // Halibutt 18:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see… Their surname obviously comes from Gurji as Georgians were known to the Turks. I’ll try to get more info about them. Regards, Kober 18:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to drop on you like this but I was just passing by and overheard your conversation is the gentelman by any chance the same as Bohdan Grudziecki who reperesented Polish interests in Persia (along with an Armenian Konstanty de Syri-Zgórski by the way). There's an article in English on the page of Iranian emabassy that mentions his name.


 * Howdy, it's me again, did some more googling and this indeed seems to be your man. There's an article about him in English in the Persian Encyclopædia Iranica [].


 * Wow! Thanks a lot for the links. It's not so easy to get so comprehensive info on such an obscure though very interesting person. Kudos! Kober 15:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

С Праздником!
--Kuban Cossack 00:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Award



 * You are most welcome my dear friend. Did you get my email? Noxchi Borz 20:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Dear Luis. I've just checked my email. I'll definitely email you. Thanks in advance for the photos. Kober 20:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Givi, Can you please add South Ossetia on your watch list? Somebody added there "Republic of South Ossetia" which is POV. Also why did they place Abkhazia in European country category? Its not a country (never was, is or will be). This is definately a biased POV for promotion of separatist agenda. Noxchi Borz 20:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll monitor both articles. Unfortunately, many at wiki have decided to endorse aggressive separatism in some cases. Thanks, Kober 20:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Kober, when you will receive the photos. save them and erase the email so i can send you the rest. They are big and your email might not take them. Noxchi Borz 20:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Luis, European country category in the Abkhazia article seems to be attached to the Europe template placed above. I'm hesitating to remove it as it has a footnote stating that Abkhazia is not a recognized country. We can ask admins to make a note at the Europe category page clarifying that it also contains unrecognized polities. Kober 20:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

King Midas
Givi, sorry for the delay. King Midas was Mushki and not Tiberani (sorry I read this long time ago). Mushki were Georgian tribe (and relatives of the Tiberani), present day Meshketians. Here is the source

D.M. Lang, The Georgians, Chapter III, p. 56:

The Western Mushki had their moments of glory under King Mita (Midas), before Sargon of Assyria (722-705 BC) reduced the Mushki to submission…..Under the name of Meshech, the Mushki are numbered in Biblical tradition among the sons of Japhet (Gen. X. 2; 1 Chron. I. 5)… D.M. Lang, The Georgians, Chapter IV, p. 73:

''From their new bases in Georgia, the Scythians and Cimmerians fanned out to the west, south and south-east. They invaded Media, ravaged the Phrygo-Mushkian kingdom of King Midas and plundered the Greek colony of Sinope.''

Wardlop also mentiones that Midas was a Mushki King. As soon as i will get the Wardlop book (from Ebay) I will site your the source. Noxchi Borz 01:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Kober look at my userpage :) Noxchi Borz 03:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Georgia Portal
How goes it Kober?:) dges mec miveci xma sakartvelos portalis taobaze. kargi ideaa rom egeti ram sheikmnas. gadavxede shen da im kanadelis tsvlils rats sheitanet wikipediashi am bolo ramodenime kviris ganmavlobashi da dzalian mometsona. me natsilobriv vadevnebdi tvals am tsvlilebebs da somxebis mokmedebebsats:). somxebis taobaze gavaprtxile ukve am gverdis zedamxedveli(albat mixvdebi vize vlaparakob) da tu kidev tsamoitskheben rames shegvidzlia seriozulad shevetsinaagmdegot da/an gavadzevot. shen mitxari ubralod eg tu sachiro ikneba. rats sheexeba chvens mepeebze, mec vpikrob rom savsebit dasashvebia is fakti rom egeni ikvnen somxebis monatesaveni da ar makvs magastan dakavshirebit problema, magram rogorc shen tkvi tsudad ereva da tsvlis am informatsias zog-zogi piri. me chven mepeebtan dakavshirebit ar makvs bevri informatsia magram erti-ori rame gamegeba da ase rom magashits shegvidzlia ertad chavertot da shevkmnat kartuli(normaluri) gverdi. sakme imashia rom sakartveloshi me tsota xnis tsin chamovedi da ak saertod ar gavzrdilvar da xandaxan upro midzneldeba ragats informatsiis da sakitxebis modzieba. aba droebit. D.Papuashvili 15:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * arapers givi. acharaze informatsias shevitan. kide ragats suratebi vnaxe, memgoni acharis mtavrobis web gverdze ikho romlebits shegvidzlia davamatot. me piradad vtvli rom exla(albat shemdegi erti tvis mandzilze) sachiroa chven mepeebze shevastsorot informatsia. amashi albat ramodenime piri dagvexmareba da ar sheidzleba rom vigats gare kveknis tsarmomadgenlebi ereoden da tsvlidnen mag gverds marto im miznit rom tavianti interesebi gaataron da gauziaron sxvebs an raime miznis popularizatsia moaxdinon. eg profesionalizms saertod moklebulia:) magram etkhoba am enciclopediashi aseti faktebi xshirad xdeba radgan nebismier adamians sheudzlia informatsiis shetsvla. D.Papuashvili 06:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * martali xar. rac sheexeba bagrationebs me ragac-ragaceebs movizieb imaze tu romeli istroikosi uchers mxars mat somxur carmoshobas da romeli ara. ise bolo dros saqartveloshic bevri laparakobs rom sheizleba somxuri versia scoric aris. kovel shemtxvevashi orive teorias akvs tavisi argumentebi. zalian cudia roca chveni megobari somxebi amas ikeneben imistvis rom xazi gausvan taviant rols saqartvelos istoriashi. da amas aq arc davushveb :) ert-ertma somxuri istoriis gverdze, romelsac zalian bevri kitxulobs, fashistebad mogvixsenia da zlivs mivagcie rom es sitkvebi caeshalat. zalian mixaria rom shenc momexmarebi:) ise tu saidumlo ar aris saqartveloshi saidan chamoxvedi? - sheni inglisuri zalian kargad jgers:) Kober 06:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * madlobt givi. me amerikidan chamovedi. rats sheexeba kartvelebis sheginebas chveni mezoblebis mxridan, eg tsudi faktia:). me vnaxe is gverdi da magaze gavaprtxile zedamxedveli. kidev ertxel moxdeba da gadzevebuli ikneba. somxebis roli sakartvelos istoriashi bevrad upro mtsirea vidre kartvelebis roli igive somxebis da somxetis ganvitarebashi magram chven magaze rodis vlaparakobt? ise erti orjer sheidzleba tsesierad shevaxsenot vin vin aris:). wikipediashi ki imas vxedav tu rogor igeben tbilisze datseril informatsias da gadaakvt somxetis dedakalakis gverdze:). aba magrad. D.Papuashvili 07:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * ha ha eg mec shevamchnie :)