User talk:KrytenKoro/Bosses in The Legend of Zelda series

Mini-Bosses (Sub-Bosses)
First of all, is this article going to contain mini-bosses? I think it should. Secondly, are they going to be referred to as sub-bosses, or mini-bosses? I prefer the latter. Thirdly, where should I write about them? Artichoker 20:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, "mini" is a misleading term, since they are rarely just a smaller version of a boss (TMC in fact reverses the term), and the term used on Boss (video game) is sub-boss, which sounds better to me. I agree that it should contain sub-bosses, but unless they are related to the dungeon's main boss, they should all be in a separate sub-boss paragraph. Also, if they are an actual character, we might not need to mention them, and if we do, only to say they exist.
 * For instances where they are just set there to guard something, and are not manifestations of curses or what not, should we list both the mini-boss and boss in the same bullet? For example, in OoA, LA, etc., the minibosses and bosses have the same purpose, so could we just list them as both guarding the treasure? Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Images
In order to keep this as fair use as possible, images should be reserved only for main bosses and the more prominent of the recurring bosses. Also, use the nowiki tags as of this time so that bots do not mess with the code, since they will not allow us to have the actual images on a sandbox page. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 20:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Linking Format
For the current format, whenever a boss is linked to a main article it is like this: I think it would be clearer and neater if we instead did it like this? Any comments? Artichoker 00:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Armos Warrior, who lurks in the Skull Dungeon.
 * Armos Warrior
 * It would actually disrupt the flow a lot more. The only reason we used the main thing in the original was that we ordered it by boss-type, so we couldn't just use the in-line link, which is simpler and cleaner. If we do this right, we really shouldn't need to use "main" or "see" on this page, unless we say "see also characters of" or "see also this game" Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Criticism
What is the Criticism header for? Artichoker 01:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be how the bosses have been commented on as reported by verifiable, notable sources. Like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KrytenKoro (talk • contribs) 02:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Wind Waker notes
Mighty Darknut -- Habitat: Hyrule Castle Spoils: Knight's Crest

These are Darknut captains. Some wear capes that must be burned or cut off before their armor straps can be cut.

Puppet Ganon

Habitat: Ganon's Castle Effective Weapon: Light Arrows

This is a gigantic marionette created by Ganon himself. It transforms into three different shapes, but all are vulnerable to rays of light.

Rather than shooting randomly at it, try to deduce when it can be easily targeted and then take advantage of your chance.

Molgera, Protector of the Seal -- Habitat: Wind Temple Effective Weapon: Hooksot

This evil guardian burrows deep into the sand. Use the Hookshot to draw out its tender tongue, then slash at is with your blade.

Kalle Demos --- Habitat: Forbidden Woods Favorite Thing: Makar

This plant-monster is a gigantic parasite that lives in the depths of the Forbidden Woods.

Only by cutting loose all of its disgusting tentacles with the boomberang will its tender core be revealed.

Gohma - Habitat: Dragon Roost Island Effective Weapon: Grappling Hook

This gigantic shelled insect inhabits areas of lava and magma. The only way to penetrate its hard bio-armor would be to drop an entire sheet of bedrock on it.

Big Octo

Habitat: Great Sea Effective Weapon: Projectiles

There are said to be six of these legendary giant squid in different reaches of the Great Sea. When ships pass by, they create tremendous currents to try to sink them.

The only way to escape is to shoot all of their weak spots - their eyes - with projectiles before being sucked in.

Wizzrobe (Miniboss) --- Habitat: Wind Temple Magic: Summons

These high-level mages use the magic of summoning to aid them in battle. They are the only Wizzrobes that can summon other Wizzrobes, which makes them formidable.

Gohdan, The Great Arbiter - Habitat: Tower of the Gods Effective Weapon: Arrows

This monstrous machine was created by the gods as a trial for the great hero. You can drop it to the ground only by piercing its hands and face with arrows.

Once it has fallen, you can defeat it by immediately tossing a bomb inside it. Oddly enough, arrows occasionally drop from its nostrils.

Phantom Ganon - Habitat: Forsaken Fortress Effective Weapons: Light Arrows, Master Sword

This is a phantom that Ganondorf created in his own likeness. Use your sword to knock back the balls of magic that he hurls, then attack him when he's stunned.

Actually, you can also use empty bottles to deflect his magic attacks.

Jalhalla, Protector of the Seal --- Habitat: Earth Temple Underlings: Poes

This gigantic ghost rules over all Poes. After reflecting light onto it with the Mirror Shield, you can lift it and throw it around.

The monstrous Helmaroc King --- Habitat: Forsaken Fortress Master: Ganondorf

The Helmaroc King is a monstrous bird that has been fitted with a mighty steel mask. Once the mask has been split with a hammer, its tender beak will be revealed.

So, Ganon's reach has extended to the very sages themselves...

sky spirit Valoo mention sea spirit Jabun? —Preceding unsigned comment added by KrytenKoro (talk • contribs) 19:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Reception and criticism
Some possible sources:


 * - GameSpot review of Phantom Hourglass; probably the most notable sentence here is "as well as some truly exciting boss battles that often make stellar use of both screens on the DS."
 * - GS review of Twilight Princess; note "the boss fights make up for some of their ease by being pretty epic."
 * - IGN review of TP; "we found ourselves hoping for just a little more where challenge is concerned, particularly for boss battles."

Obviously this section will have to cite more games than this, but is this the right sort of stuff that should be used for this section? Haipa Doragon (talk) 23:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That looks perfect. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Reception sources
Surpisingly, a lot of results via google scholar and news. Here's some of the better ones:


 * http://smartech.library.gatech.edu/dspace/bitstream/1853/16823/1/ashmore-thesis.pdf (the whole thing looks pretty useful)

The significance of Ocarina of Time's musical score goes beyond the subtle interactions of foreshadowing and heuristic, however. The game engine's sophistication is such that, for the first time, musical phrases can blend seamlessly as Link crosses from one musical signature area into another and, more importantly, as Link encounters a dangerous enemy. Object 10 is a clip of what happens musically as Link approaches an enemy. The blending effect is initially subtle, but blossoms into full-blown "attack" music which, much like the Castle Theme from Super Mario Brothers, heightens the drama of the conflict and alerts the player to more focused performance. The sound engine of the Zelda game demonstrates the same principle of maintaining contiguity, but the role it plays is more flexible and dynamic since the three-dimensional construction of Link's environment often allows a player to choose whether or not to move toward the source of the "danger music," but the same broad structure of concluding a level or world with danger music holds true as Link encounters level bosses and the final enemy, Ganondorf. The application of this safety/danger binary in the fluid schematic of the three-dimensional space of Hyrule exhibits the complexity and richness of this fictional space. The character of the soundtrack is both charming and haunting, and the complexity of the blending and overlapping musical themes invite serious immersion in the game's world.

Object 10. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time "Danger" theme – the blending of safety state and danger state. WAV File (obj10.wav; 44 seconds; 946kb)

Finally, a comment on the Zelda’s artificial intelligence. Creatures in Zelda seem to wander aimlessly about the screen, not homing in on Link until he attacks them first. If attacked from the front, a creature will charge dim-wittedly ahead for a few steps. While this often inflicts damage to Link, creatures are unable to follow him if he zigzags around the screen. Moreover, the boss characters do not really get any “smarter”—they just become more difficult to kill (either by moving faster, having more life points, or having weapons that are more powerful). In short, I would argue that the artificial intelligence in Zelda is not one of its compelling features; in order to make a challenging game, then, Nintendo did two things: centered the game-play around solving puzzles (e.g., maneuvering through mazes, deciphering clues) and created an abundance of enemy creatures (i.e., many stupid creatures as opposed to fewer, smarter creatures). Link travels through an overhead game world populated with caves, hidden passages, oceans and enemies. He also has to explore room-based dungeons and use keys or bombs to open up doors to new rooms. Each dungeon culminates with a boss battle; after defeating each boss, Link gets a piece of the Triforce.
 * 1) All news searches
 * 2) All scholar searches

Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 16:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Minish Cap Bosses
Are these bosses truly sent to guard the elements? the first two seem only to be wild beasts, and while BO does eat the element, it seems just to be hungry. Is there any kind of quote that explains why Link has to fight them, or are they all glorified sub-bosses?
 * I do not believe these elements are "guarded by bosses, they are just there by coincidence, so maybe we should change "guarded" to something else?
 * Is it possible that the elements themselves called them? They all appear to just be "Monsters", not "Curses", and the fact that the elements only appear after the boss has been defeated...it would also explain why the Big Octorok ate the Water element - whether purposely or not, they attract Monsters of the same element.
 * Of course, while this is pretty much the only reason they would be there (unless Vaati sent them, and they're all just bad at gettin to the elements first - but he didn't really care about the monsters when they were released, and didn't seem to ever care about the elements), there's no real quotes supporting it...
 * When monsters were released from the chest, I think they were sent to guard the four elements. I doubt Vaati sent them. Artichoker 21:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless whether they were specifically sent to guard the Elements or their appearance is nothing more than mere coincidence, I would still consider them as bosses (not sub-bosses) as you still have to defeat them for the purpose of obtaining Link's main quest items (the Elements).172.170.190.207 08:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are definitely bosses. But should we list the sub-bosses? I think we should. Artichoker 14:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Final Bosses
How do we list these? So far, mentioning them in the explanation seems to work, but what about Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess, where the final bosses have multiple forms, or defeating a main boss gives you a reward?

Can anyone think of a good solution? Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 21:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Still todo
Okay, we still need to figure out how to do Sub-bosses and final bosses best, but otherwise, we have only:
 * 1) Citing with in-game text or figurines
 * 2) Trimming the recurring sections to remove cruft
 * 3) Adding in reception details

If no one feels they are up to writing the last one, we could simply amass notes from the sources, and ask one of the editors more experienced in doing so to synthesize them. However, the first two should be pretty easy for us. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 17:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This should be in good enough shape to move it over now - the basic framework is up, and we just need to get the reception info and decide what to do for mini-bosses and the like. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Two Questions
First, I'd like us to do the nihongo tag for any of these that we can.

Second, would Frostare count as a recurrence of Kholdstare? Or are they entirely separate?128.211.182.120 22:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

FSA curses
I know Frozen Hyrule was a curse - was this blamed on Vaati/Ganon in general, or Kholdstare himself?

Are the area bosses responsible for the problems going on in each area, like the darkness covering the Dark woods (Phantom Ganon), and Stone Arrghus kidnapping the children ( I know the manga suggests it for Arrghus). Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 16:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC)