User talk:Kubura/Archive1

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Census data
Hi, can you please correct the additions of census data you made to Zagreb etc, so that they are complete sentences, and they use decimal points instead of commas, as this is the convention on the English Wikipedia. Thanks -- Jeronim 20:24, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

My reverted edit on SC language
Wow, slow down. The point of the whole paragraph you edited was to describe difference of use of infinitive versus present. Instead of improving it, you deliberately replaced synonymic words only to stress the language difference and/or to suit your own idiolect better.

First, "učiniti" and "uraditi" are 99% synonyms in both Serbian and Croatian. If you don't use the latter in your idiolect, that's fine, but I've never seen either one favoured neither in Serbian nor in Croatian colloquial speach. If you changed it in one language variant (again, for no particular reason), a fair deed would have been to change it in another. This is an encyclopedia for readers, not for writers.

Second, "da li" DOES exist in Croatian language. If you don't use it yourself, fine again. I can agree that forms with "htjeti" are prevailing. There are numerous other samples where difference exists. But that was not the point of the paragraph in question. If you wish, rewrite it, but the point was to keep the focus on differences, not to confuse the reader.

Duja 20:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

There is more to be contributed in the article. "Uraditi" and "učiniti" do exist in Croatian. "Raditi" corresponds to "to work", "činiti/djelati(the latter in dialectal form mostly)" corresponds to "to do", while "(na)praviti" corresponds to "to make". As I've heard, in nowadays spoken Serbian, form "raditi" (or better "da radim"), is in active use. Other forms are very rare, from what I had opportunity to hear. So in Croatian it goes "Znam što mi je činiti". The form "Znam što mi je da radim" is in Serbian. But, in Croatian can be: "Što činiš?" "Radim." (it cannot be: "Što radiš?" "Činim.")


 * Don't be another Croat that thinks that he/she is a bigger Serb that Serbs themselves. >:). Now seriously, "činiti" is in active use in Serbian as well. "Znam šta mi je činiti" is normal, while "znam šta mi je da radim" is quite odd. "Činiti" is indeed wider term than "raditi", but they're interchangeable in most situations. And, no, I've never heard a Croat saying "što činiš?" -- that's quite Montenegrin construct. The infinitive is not proscribed, just some "da" forms are more often used. As I mentioned in the article, they're considered Germanisms in linguistic circles and their proliferation in colloquial speech is not warmly welcome.


 * Never heard someone saying "Ča činiš?" or "Što činiš?" ("Što radiš" is asked when someone sees you actually working on something). Well, you've said that yours are from Bosnia, you lived there... it explains why you find "radiš" version as "normal Croatian", compared to "činiš" version.Kubura 08:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

"Da li" is definitely not Croatian interrogative form; that's pure Serbian. Croatian interrogative forms could be only with "verb+li+..." or "interrogative pronoun+li+...".

If You've encountered somewhere between Croats the use of form "da li", that's import from Serbian.


 * Ok, I can accept that...

70 years of imposed influence of Serbian language (through public institutions - especially central ones), than through literature, especially for higher education, that was translated only in Serbian, comics (that were mostly in Serbian translated) and so on... took its toll. Military forces and police were bastion of Serbian language. No Croatian language allowed (have You ever seen Croatian terminology?). Not to mention the assimetry of language knowledge.


 * ...if you could just spare me that shittalk. I'm tired of it. As for the comics, Serbian translation of Alan Ford is nowhere near Nenad Brixy's one; I've heard the similar about Croatian translation of Asterix. Not to mention excellent editions by Školska Knjiga written in quite pure Croatian; for my field, Hrvoje Požar's books on electric machines are still considered the best and recommended by professors. But I better stop here.


 * Don't use words like "shittalk", it degrades discussion.

About comics: I know that Alan Ford and Tom & Jerry were in Cro. translated, but all other comics, were in Ser.. About schoolbooks: in 1970's and later things have moved "on better" for Cro. (elementary and middle education), but big part of faculty literature was still in Serbian (not all, but still...). Or, e.g., have you ever seen a car manual in Cro., from those times? Do you know what problems late Mladen Delić had when he used "osobna greška" instead of "lična greška", during TV-transmission of basketball game? Generally, insisting on using/finding a Cro.translation could bring you big serious problems in those times. In short, I'm not trying to torture you with 10 page speeches (words we say in 10 seconds, take half a page), I'm just trying to tell you some examples, which made us Croats angry. Many times we've said: why @!#* is not in Cro. translated (it was in Ser.only)? As good example, some magazines from Serbia had their Cro.edition, but unfortunately for a short period. Kubura 08:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

As You've said, slow down a bit. Make a consultation with Croats, ask them; they know much more about their mother tongue than You. Don't be another Serb that thinks that he/she is a bigger Croat that Croats themselves. Greetings, Kubura 14:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * My mother is a Croat, actually, and I grew up in Bosnia in mostly Croatian/Bosniak environment. So, no need to preach. I admit I don't follow current Croatian linguistic situation 100% but I watch HTV everyday. OK, I'm gonna redo the paragraph in question so that it takes into account the situation with interrogative and relative constructs ("da li" vs. inversion), just not today -- I'm in a hurry.
 * Greetings, Duja 17:06, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, that explains me a lot. Kubura 08:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. Is it better now? Duja 12:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)